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View Full Version : Glock v M&P, even though I know better.



orionz06
06-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Is selling an M&P (1 of 2) to try a Glock again worth the trouble? I would sell a 5" 9mm M&P I do not use (at all) for a G17 RTF2 and likely break even or gain a little. My carry gun would stay the same for the time being (M&P FS 9mm)

I would like to think I know better, but apparently I don't.

I have had spurts where I was throwing shots a little bit to the left but I feel I have worked past that. Every once in a while it comes around, but it usually coincides with a lapse in dry-fire. This happens with both of my M&P's that are all tweaked and Apex'd out. Both guns do not appear to exhibit the accuracy issues nor do they have reliability concerns (except one spring related FTR). When this has happened, I have shot a Glock that someone else had and I was spot on.

Is there any reason a Glock might be better for me? The rational part of me thinks this is some giant brain fart and I am too emotionally invested into something, the other thinks that I won't lose much so why not. Is there some placebo type effect going on or is it just random instances of sucking. I have hit 8" plates at 75 yards (and missed 6" at 20) with my carry gun now, so I think I have all the pieces to battle through the issue, but who knows. The only thing that I can cling to at the moment is the trigger face feels a touch better, but it does not seem to be too different than the M&P's.

Thoughts?

ETA: I know and understand gear cannot fix non-gear issues. Or maybe I don't...

JV_
06-13-2011, 01:06 PM
How much trigger time do you have behind the M&P?

orionz06
06-13-2011, 01:07 PM
How much trigger time do you have behind the M&P?

Over 5k.

JV_
06-13-2011, 01:08 PM
ETA: I know and understand gear cannot fix non-gear issues. Or maybe I don't...

FWIW: I just sold both of my P30s and (3) M&P guns. I'm back to shooting the same guns I did 5+ years ago. I could have saved a lot of money if I didn't take those adventures, but that nagging feeling of 'something better' is no longer there.

orionz06
06-13-2011, 01:11 PM
FWIW: I just sold both of my P30s and (3) M&P guns. I'm back to shooting the same guns I did 5+ years ago. I could have saved a lot of money if I didn't take those adventures, but that nagging feeling of 'something better' is no longer there.

So is the lateral move I would make worth the effort to shut up the dumbass side of my brain?

JV_
06-13-2011, 01:14 PM
So is the lateral move I would make worth the effort to shut up the dumbass side of my brain?It might .... but it might not. I feel like I've learned a lot by shooting other guns, I've certainly reinforced my preferences.

I consider ~5K the minimum number of rounds needed to make an educated decision about switching platforms.

Kyle Reese
06-13-2011, 01:41 PM
FWIW: I just sold both of my P30s and (3) M&P guns. I'm back to shooting the same guns I did 5+ years ago. I could have saved a lot of money if I didn't take those adventures, but that nagging feeling of 'something better' is no longer there.

I can echo this sentiment 100%. I was pleased with the Glock for many years, but there was always a proverbial monkey on my back that drove me towards purchasing

P99s
Beretta 92's
1911s
M&P's
Sig P22_ series
USPs

All the while I should have just invested the time and resources into focusing on the fundamentals and dedicating myself to the Glock.

JHC
06-13-2011, 01:52 PM
It might .... but it might not. I feel like I've learned a lot by shooting other guns, I've certainly reinforced my preferences.



I totallly agree with that point. There is also much validity in getting seriously dedicated to a gun type to really get control over it. But there is a place for learning first hand what those preferences are and how are you going to do that without some good old trial and error? There's going to be a transition/evaluation period where you may be sub-optimal on both since your shooting both but that isn't necessarily much degradation (see one gun thread). I think that may just be the price of knowledge. Gain knowledge, sacrifice some skill/performance. Catch up on the skill later with the knowledge intact.

And the fact that the RTF2 G17 is a magnificent version of the G17 - I'd go for it.

KevH
06-13-2011, 02:07 PM
No matter how much I stray (or want to stray) to other platforms I always seem to come back to Glock. They simply work and are comfortable to me.

My suggestion is to find one platform (or gun) and stick to it. If the M&P is what works best for you than stick with that. If you like Glock and want to carry one that stick with it.

I've wasted a decent amount of time and training flip-flopping back and forth in the last six years. If I had just stuck with Glock I think I'd be much farther ahead in my shooting.

MichaelD
06-13-2011, 04:28 PM
If you shoot M&P's on par with how well you shoot Glocks, I'd say sell the unneeded gun and use the funds for ammo, not a different pistol.

Comedian
06-13-2011, 05:00 PM
I can echo this sentiment 100%. I was pleased with the Glock for many years, but there was always a proverbial monkey on my back that drove me towards purchasing

P99s
Beretta 92's
1911s
M&P's
Sig P22_ series
USPs

All the while I should have just invested the time and resources into focusing on the fundamentals and dedicating myself to the Glock.

Think of all the fun you would have missed though. :cool:

orionz06
06-13-2011, 11:00 PM
Put money down on the G17. Worst case is I end up trading it back for another M&P and I lose no money and realize I was right all along.

orionz06
06-18-2011, 07:26 PM
Not sure what I thought my issue was, but I was nailing some steel out @ 200 (Sat. map confirmed) yards today with a friend and had no issues keeping the shots at center. The biggest concern of mine was the hold over at that range. Hit a 10" wide plate pretty consistently too. I guess I was just mind fucked, but now I have a G17 RTF so it is not all bad.

Jay Cunningham
06-18-2011, 08:55 PM
Hey dude, your M&P with all the tweeky Apex gadgetry really felt nice to me - trigger was outstanding IMO.

Glock17
06-18-2011, 11:10 PM
I'm really glad to see I'm not the only numbnuts who has strayed multiple times only to come back to Glock. It seems like I should like the M&P better. Better ergo's, US made, great service and support. But even with all the Apex hardware the Glock 17 just works beter for me. I can't rally explain why. To take it one step further I had been issued and purchased 1911's since 1977. I never thought anything would sway me from 1911's and the .45 round. Certainly not a plastic pistol with the piddly 9mm round. But these days with a good sd round I'm very happy with Glocks in 9mm with minimal tweaking and even use the out of the box trigger. It does everything I need it to do very well, plenty accurate, and minimal maintenance required.

orionz06
06-18-2011, 11:23 PM
Hey dude, your M&P with all the tweeky Apex gadgetry really felt nice to me - trigger was outstanding IMO.

Yeah, not sure what is going on but hitting a target with my weak hand only at 200 yards with either a Glock or M&P did a lot of rearranging in the cranium.

ranburr
06-18-2011, 11:34 PM
Sounds like you did fine. You wound up with a new Glock. You ought to be proficient with multiple platforms. This will allow that to happen.

dsa
06-24-2011, 04:40 PM
I have about 8K thru the M&P and have been training with it regularly for the last 6 months. I picked up a Gen4 G17 that was too good a deal to pass up, dropped it off with a local Glock armorer to inspect and installed a Ghost 4.5# connector w/ a 6# trigger return spring. To the point: I shot my best FAST time with the Gen 4 G17 by .5 seconds (6.1 clean), shaved 7 seconds off my best weekly club Steel Challenge time and went from a 134 (18) to a 121 (4) on the IDPA SSP classifier. I have < 1K rounds thru the G17 I love the M&P but I can't argue with the results. I keep wondering how I will shoot the G17 when I have 8K rounds thru it.

JonInWA
07-06-2011, 02:52 PM
Every time I'm tempted by the siren song of the HK P30/HK45/HK45C/HK2000, I get to the decision-point brink, and then realize that my Gen 3 G17, G19, G21 and G34 are operationally flawless, that I can personally detail-strip and replace parts on them without a doctorate in German mechanical engineering (and 3 hands), that I've got significant muscle-memory in both live-and dry-fire built up in them, that I've got ample holsters and magazines for them...and then I step back from the brink.

(And that also precludes cashing in chips with the omnipotent Wifely Review Board as well...)

Best, Jon

DocGKR
07-06-2011, 03:39 PM
The HK will give you NOTHING that your current reliable Glock won't already do...so why are you contemplating switching?

JonInWA
07-06-2011, 04:11 PM
The HK will give you NOTHING that your current reliable Glock won't already do...so why are you contemplating switching?

That was exactly the conclusion that I came to (after getting smacked with an attack of common sense).

That was kind of the point of my thread comment-but thanks for backstopping it with your concurrent observations and experience, Doc.

Best, Jon

irishshooter
07-06-2011, 04:51 PM
I have about 8K thru the M&P and have been training with it regularly for the last 6 months. I picked up a Gen4 G17 that was too good a deal to pass up, dropped it off with a local Glock armorer to inspect and installed a Ghost 4.5# connector w/ a 6# trigger return spring. To the point: I shot my best FAST time with the Gen 4 G17 by .5 seconds (6.1 clean), shaved 7 seconds off my best weekly club Steel Challenge time and went from a 134 (18) to a 121 (4) on the IDPA SSP classifier. I have < 1K rounds thru the G17 I love the M&P but I can't argue with the results. I keep wondering how I will shoot the G17 when I have 8K rounds thru it.

what is your trigger pull down to with this set up. was thinking about the same in my G19 and this sounds promising!

dsa
07-06-2011, 08:51 PM
what is your trigger pull down to with this set up. was thinking about the same in my G19 and this sounds promising!

5# with little to no overtravel.

GJM
07-14-2011, 01:36 PM
The HK will give you NOTHING that your current reliable Glock won't already do...so why are you contemplating switching?

In light of all the Gen 4, and late Gen 3 issues, assuming you have a reliable Glock, an HK is certainly as reliable and accurate as any service pistol, works in 9,40 and 45, gives you a choice of trigger systems, choice of a thumb safety, and a hammer for AIWB.

If it doesn't mean skipping food, I would just put the M&P pistols aside, and focus on Glock for now, so you don't have to buy and set-up the M&P pistols when you come back to them in the future. My rule is if you have one wife, you can afford more than one pistol. :)

irishshooter
07-14-2011, 02:49 PM
5# with little to no overtravel.

nice. just installed the Ranger 4.5 connector only, without changing any springs. trigger pull is right at 5# +/-, nice crisp break and very positive reset as far as i can tell like stock. originally measured at 6.5-6.75# with stock connector. very pleased right now. less than 500 rounds through it no issues ;)

Jason
07-15-2011, 11:49 AM
Every time I'm tempted by the siren song of the HK P30/HK45/HK45C/HK2000, I get to the decision-point brink, and then realize that my Gen 3 G17, G19, G21 and G34 are operationally flawless, that I can personally detail-strip and replace parts on them without a doctorate in German mechanical engineering (and 3 hands), that I've got significant muscle-memory in both live-and dry-fire built up in them, that I've got ample holsters and magazines for them...and then I step back from the brink.

(And that also precludes cashing in chips with the omnipotent Wifely Review Board as well...)

Best, Jon


I have been at this brink a few times, also with the P30, but never took the plunge. Also been at this brink with 1911s as well. Its never ending, something in our monkey brain tells us "there must be something better out there" even if there is nothing wrong with what we have.

JonInWA
07-16-2011, 12:43 PM
I have been at this brink a few times, also with the P30, but never took the plunge. Also been at this brink with 1911s as well. Its never ending, something in our monkey brain tells us "there must be something better out there" even if there is nothing wrong with what we have.

Tell me about it..I've got some magnificent 1911s, including a Nighthawk Custom Talon II that I totally spec'ed out, and is exceptionally accurate, and reliable once totally broken in at the 800-900 round point. The only problem is, I'm not as accurate, or as fast with a 1911 as I am with my Glocks.

I'll freely admit that I have more dry-fire and hammer time on my Glocks. The conundrum is, should I park my Glocks and build up commensuerate 1911 hammer time? My compromise is that for a several month stretch, I do concentrate almost exclusively on my 1911s, for practice, carry and competition. But for the bulk of the year, I'll use my Glocks. They're accurate, reliable, durable, and easy to carry-and I'm personally at my best with them.

This year has been a bit of an exception-I've been concentrating on my Beretta 92D, due to a combinanation of circumstances. It's a good gun, and I'm enjoying working up on it. But after our Washington State IDPA match in August, the Beretta will be primarily used as a nightstand gun, and I'll revert to primarily using my Glocks.

Best, Jon

GJM
07-16-2011, 12:54 PM
You should do whatever YOU feel like. While I understand the advice to a new shooter, to pick one platform and stick with it, it may or may not make sense for you, depending upon your interest, goals and the time you spend shooting. If your performance degrades, because of the variety of platforms, that is a clue. If your performance improves, shooting several platforms, that would be another clue. I love wild salmon, and eat it frequently, but only eating wild salmon soon becomes dull for me. That may or may not be the case for my neighbors here in Alaska.

orionz06
09-18-2016, 01:54 PM
I'd very much encourage all members with a 2011 Join Date to go back and bump one of your threads from 2011!

#postpfnecrobump


Still shooting Glocks. The M&P wasn't fixed then despite numerous changes throughout the years. The efforts involved to get a few that were acceptable far exceeded what I was willing to put into it since I gotta pay for my guns and my ammo and evaluate them on my own time. I do have a P320 now that seems promising and for the fuck of it I am getting a Shadow 2 and possibly a P-07. Not sure any of those will replace a Gadget'd Glock but the hammer fired guns have some sexy triggers. Plus I like buying stuff.

Jay Cunningham
09-18-2016, 01:56 PM
Does it count that I'm seriously considering replacing my Glock 42 with a 9mm S&W Shield?

I might be off topic.

orionz06
09-18-2016, 02:01 PM
I suspect that's for ballistics?

Jay Cunningham
09-18-2016, 02:06 PM
I suspect that's for ballistics?

Moreso because I'm pretty sure I can get a lot more of my hands pieces parts on the Shield.

The 42 is very handy but the Shield just seems like a great single stack.

LockedBreech
09-18-2016, 02:21 PM
My M&P40 gave me a light strike yesterday. Clear and off-center primer mark on a Speer Lawman. One of the only failures I've ever had that I could unambiguously attribute to the gun. Not super cheesed. It cycled the other ~150 yesterday just fine, but that kinda crap makes me twitch.

And to slightly deviate from the resurrected 2011 topic, I am moving away from .40 after years as a .40 hipster since I've actually been shooting weekly. It's just harder to shoot well at speed.

TR675
09-18-2016, 02:27 PM
For a couple years I was an M&P guy. I've been trying to get a G19 gen 3 up and running for use with the Gadget. I just can't get the flipping thing to work right.

It has BTF-itis. I've tried replacing bits, and all that's happened so far is the ejection got real lazy and BTF went from one in 50 rounds to one in 5.

I'm about done with it and ready to go back to the M&P. Problem: my full size M&P is reliable but not very accurate. My full size Glock is a better gun. My M&P 9c is a great gun. The G19 ain't.

I just want one full size and one compact version of the same pistol that are worth a crap.

FWIW, I like the M&P design and layout better - it's got a more comfortable grip, I like that I can use Lasergrips, which I think are great, and Apex parts make the trigger good, not just acceptable.

Although, I did just put the first 100 rounds through a new Colt Commander today (flawless!). My Colt 1911's haven't malfed yet. Maybe I'll be a 1911 guy.


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LockedBreech
09-18-2016, 02:31 PM
My G19 Gen 4 had BTF pretty bad until the most recent range trip. I feel like my extractor is finally wearing in. As much as I want/wanted to tinker I have left it stock since I've had no stoppages.

As much as I enjoy my G19, I have to admit my VP9 makes it look like an amateur.

TR675
09-18-2016, 02:35 PM
You've probably got the right idea.

I'm putting it back in stock configuration. If it's BTF'ing in the next 200 rounds I'll send it in.


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Nephrology
09-18-2016, 03:14 PM
Replacing the ejector and EDP assembly with a 30274 ejector/white sound HRED has resolved all of my BTF problems on both new and old guns.

LSP972
09-18-2016, 06:00 PM
So is the lateral move I would make worth the effort to shut up the dumbass side of my brain?

You bet... IF the G17 doesn't have any gremlins.

I recently had to abandon my treasured HKs, because health issues have reduced me to the smallest/lightest EDC piece
I can stand. That has been the G19... First one I ever bought, in 1992. It's had 30K+ rounds through it, with only spring changes. It isn't going to have any FTEs, BTF, or any of the other bullshit Glocks have been suffering ever since the wizards in Austria and here began changing things.

Of course, if your traded-for G17 does have an issue or two, you can buy some aftermarket "upgrade" and fix it yourself.

I don't like Glocks; never have, never will. But I have a LOT of time behind numerous examples, both as a shooter and an instructor. I recognize that most of them are excellent handguns that will carry the load without complaint. But I damn sure do NOT trust anything they produced in the past several years. Got a G43 right now that would be perfect as an EDC... If I trusted it. Not there yet, but hopefully I will be.

Regarding the M&P pistols... Dunno, man, it seems like every time I think about one, some other M&P malady has happened. I did purchase a S&W Super Stigma (SD9VE) not long ago- don't ask why, bizarre story- because it was CHEAP... and I have examined/fired dozens of them at the lab. The original Sigma (Stigma) SW9VE was a pretty sorry mule... This newer one ain't so bad. We put 500 rounds through it in one afternoon, just for grins, and it was actually fun to shoot. And no malfs.

Anyway, that's more than you give a shit about... Sorry for the branch-off. I guess I'm telling you that I have examined/fired a lot of M&Ps too.

And they don't seem as "solid", to me.

.

HCM
09-18-2016, 06:12 PM
For a couple years I was an M&P guy. I've been trying to get a G19 gen 3 up and running for use with the Gadget. I just can't get the flipping thing to work right.

It has BTF-itis. I've tried replacing bits, and all that's happened so far is the ejection got real lazy and BTF went from one in 50 rounds to one in 5.

I'm about done with it and ready to go back to the M&P. Problem: my full size M&P is reliable but not very accurate. My full size Glock is a better gun. My M&P 9c is a great gun. The G19 ain't.

I just want one full size and one compact version of the same pistol that are worth a crap.

FWIW, I like the M&P design and layout better - it's got a more comfortable grip, I like that I can use Lasergrips, which I think are great, and Apex parts make the trigger good, not just acceptable.

Although, I did just put the first 100 rounds through a new Colt Commander today (flawless!). My Colt 1911's haven't malfed yet. Maybe I'll be a 1911 guy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apex Barrel in your M&P FS - done.

HCM
09-18-2016, 06:29 PM
So since this thread started in 2011 we have seen the 40 and .45 M&P's as solid choices and dome improvements in the 9mm FS guns - you are now more likely than not to get a good one, which I guess is similar to the current state of Glock 9mm's.

We have also seen the introduction of the Glock and S&W single stacks. In 9mm I prefer the Shield to the Glock 43 and the opposite for the .380's - the 42 is the only small .380 I've ever liked while the S&W Bodyguard .380 tends to be a pile o'crap.

AFAIK the only M&P issue S&W hasn't addressed is occasional accuracy issues in 9mm FS models.

There have been rumors of a S&W Gen2 resulting from S&W's collaboration with General Dynamics for the U.S. military MHS competition. There was something on TFB last month which may or may not be reeled to this.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/18/leaked-smith-wesson-m2-0-possible-new-rifle-handgun/

psalms144.1
09-18-2016, 07:50 PM
AFAIK the only M&P issue S&W hasn't addressed is occasional accuracy issues in 9mm FS models."Other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

Seriously, just poking fun, but, like the SERPA, I can't understand why anyone would even consider a M&P 9 Full Size with the probability that it'll be an inaccurate pistol that needs $100+ in Apex goodies to get a decent trigger in. I know, I know, I'm the guy who went through five bad G19s in a row...

DocGKR
09-18-2016, 08:25 PM
Thanks to the recent actions by the ignorant California Legislature and equally odious failure to veto poorly conceived laws by the CA Governor, I will likely be forced to give up carrying G19's and move back to M&P's for next year...

psalms144.1
09-18-2016, 08:38 PM
Thanks to the recent actions by the ignorant California Legislature and equally odious failure to veto poorly conceived laws by the CA Governor, I will likely be forced to give up carrying G19's and move back to M&P's for next year...Well - poop, that really blows. IIRC, you have a couple of M&Ps that shot OK, once you found the right ammo, hopefully they'll work out for you.

RevolverRob
09-18-2016, 08:58 PM
I feel like a troll when I point out that the solution to this thread didn't exist in 2011. But it certainly exists now - Heckler and Koch VP9. And Doc, you know HKs 10-round magazines work properly, right? ;)

Nephrology
09-18-2016, 08:58 PM
Thanks to the recent actions by the ignorant California Legislature and equally odious failure to veto poorly conceived laws by the CA Governor, I will likely be forced to give up carrying G19's and move back to M&P's for next year...

I am considering, much farther down the line, buying a pair of M&P45s or 45cs for ban-state carry...

Doug
09-18-2016, 09:13 PM
I feel like a troll when I point out that the solution to this thread didn't exist in 2011. But it certainly exists now - Heckler and Koch VP9. And Doc, you know HKs 10-round magazines work properly, right? ;)

I could be wrong but only full time police officers are roster exempt to buy that pistol.

Another gift from the CA legislature that keeps on giving.


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LSP972
09-18-2016, 10:26 PM
Thanks to the recent actions by the ignorant California Legislature and equally odious failure to veto poorly conceived laws by the CA Governor, I will likely be forced to give up carrying G19's and move back to M&P's for next year...

WTF? How are they steering THAT one? Perhaps yet another thinly-veiled effort to take care of a 'Murican firm?

Man, this crap just never stops.

.

HCM
09-18-2016, 10:43 PM
"Other than that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

Seriously, just poking fun, but, like the SERPA, I can't understand why anyone would even consider a M&P 9 Full Size with the probability that it'll be an inaccurate pistol that needs $100+ in Apex goodies to get a decent trigger in. I know, I know, I'm the guy who went through five bad G19s in a row...

Since 2011, the triggers have gotten better across the board.

As for accuracy issues with the 9FS, they have not been eliminated but it is now more likely than not you will get a good one.

orionz06
09-18-2016, 10:44 PM
As for accuracy issues with the 9FS, they have not been eliminated but it is now more likely than not you will get a good one.

It's been a roller coaster since.

breakingtime91
09-18-2016, 10:47 PM
Uh mp 2.0... Please people. A MP FS with thumb safety is an amazing appendix carry gun

If 2.0:
Fixes accuracy issues

orionz06
09-18-2016, 11:00 PM
Uh mp 2.0... Please people. A MP FS with thumb safety is an amazing appendix carry gun

If 2.0:
Fixes accuracy issues

Rumor has it they've fixed things... If it's a 2.0 as rumored then one could easily assume that there was knowledge of the bed shitting that took place with their other fixes and a fix to the fixes occurred.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

HCM
09-18-2016, 11:02 PM
It's been a roller coaster since.

Yeah, it's still a crap shoot, but so is Glock. HK Uber Alles.

orionz06
09-18-2016, 11:13 PM
Yeah, it's still a crap shoot, but so is Glock. HK Uber Alles.

I'll take a gun that's sometimes 4" at 25 and can be improved over one that's 8" and may not be improved at all.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

HCM
09-18-2016, 11:43 PM
I'll take a gun that's sometimes 4" at 25 and can be improved over one that's 8" and may not be improved at all.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

Given my personally owned agency approved G17 started shitting the bed at 7k rounds ( BTF which became failure to eject) I can assure you when push comes to shove, reliability > accuracy issues.

Either is annoying. If I could carry a different 9mm platform I would.

breakingtime91
09-19-2016, 12:11 AM
Had a conversation yesterday that left me thinking. If HK would make a vp9 with a thumb safety, I would be all over it for a carry gun. Good trigger, accurate, no BTF, and safe for appendix

Joe in PNG
09-19-2016, 12:28 AM
Iffin I had to go with a striker gun, ya, ich bein liebin das VP strikenshutenplastikwunderpistole.

DocGKR
09-19-2016, 01:32 AM
Hmmm....I think the M&P9c may get the nod, as they shoot pretty darned well:
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9cRMR07_zps08a7f13b.jpg
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/MampP9c_zps3fb9d592.jpg

LSP972
09-19-2016, 05:19 AM
Given my personally owned agency approved G17 started shitting the bed at 7k rounds ( BTF which became failure to eject) I can assure you when push comes to shove, reliability > accuracy issues.

Either is annoying. If I could carry a different 9mm platform I would.

Thanks for that warm & fuzzy statement. I keep telling myself that my pair of old (early 90s) G19s won't do any of that. But then I have a like-new G17 Gen3 that the local PD dumped when they bought new Gen4s for their troops. It does fine ( so far, anyway); it's my "house gun".

And then we have a G43, which carries beautifully... but it worries me.

I kept a pair of identical HK USP Compacts 9mm, with all the goodies. They are a bit bigger and heavier than the Glocks, which is why I quit carrying one after that brain surgery. But they WORK; period. Guess I need to man up and quit wringing my hands...:rolleyes:

.

LSP972
09-19-2016, 05:22 AM
Hmmm....I think the M&P9c may get the nod, as they shoot pretty darned well:
]

So, why will you NOT be allowed to continue with your G19s?

.

VT1032
09-19-2016, 06:05 AM
So, why will you NOT be allowed to continue with your G19s?

.

Not doc, but my guess is they banned the possession of pre ban "hi cap" mags in this latest round of bs... the g19 10rnd mags have pretty questionable reliability while the m&p ones work fine.

KeeFus
09-19-2016, 06:58 AM
Ive carried an M&P 9fs off-duty for about 6 years. Out of the box it was a 6-8 inch gun. The KKM barrel made it a 1 inch gun. I also put the Apex DCAK in it. Waste of money simply because it didn't improve the trigger all that much. Otherwise I haven't spent a dime on the pistol short of buying extra magazines. Our M&P 45s came with shitty magazine springs. S&W CS responded lethargically but it was remedied. Other than that no issues. I did change the front sight on the M&P 45 simply to change it to POA=POI. But that was a preferance as I prefer that sight picture over "driving the dots".

As far as Glock over M&P. The only reason I put down my Glocks 5-6 years ago was because we switched to M&P 45's and I wanted the same platform for off-duty. Both M&Ps ran very well. As HCM said earlier Id rather have an 8 inch @ 25 yard gun than one that doesn't function well. Did I need to replace the factory barrel on the M&P 9? No. But I wanted more accuracy and I paid to get it. I find it funny that we will spend all sorts of cash on stippling, slide cuts, etc but bitch about buying a $200 barrel to improve accuracy.

Now that we are switching to Glock 17's Im going back to Glocks off-duty simply because it's the same platform. My current duty pistol, the Gen 4 Glock 17, has run great so far. It ejects at about 3:30-4:00 but its weak...as in doesn't eject all that far from the shooter. Ive watched others qualify and its the same thing. Time will tell I guess. Otherwise no issues thus far but we are only halfway thru the transition process.

This whole argument of Glock or M&P is a Chevy or Ford issue for me. Choose whichever one you like better and run it.

breakingtime91
09-19-2016, 07:11 AM
Iffin I had to go with a striker gun, ya, ich bein liebin das VP strikenshutenplastikwunderpistole.

Can I steal this.

RJ
09-19-2016, 07:24 AM
I can say as a noob, there is a lot to like about the M&P.

First, you can find them to rent at ranges. Second there a lot of accesories etc. at Cabela's, Gander and so forth (Magazines, Blackhawk Serpas... :cool:)

It feels good in the hand, absorbs recoil well, and is reliable. The 'sear disconnect' tool in the butt that holds the backstrap on is cool. It comes with a safety if you like one.

And at street prices starting in the $4xx, it is frankly affordable.

Yes, you will get it home and wonder if all that sandpaper on the press you feel is normal, but you'll get over that after you find makes very satisfying holes at 3 yards on those 18" x 24" pictures of the bad guy they sell.

After that 50 rounds, you put it back in your sock drawer, and you'll be pretty confident you made the right choice. It's no wonder they sell oodles of them.

mmc45414
09-19-2016, 07:39 AM
Moreso because I'm pretty sure I can get a lot more of my hands pieces parts on the Shield.

The 42 is very handy but the Shield just seems like a great single stack.
I am probably gonna end up with a 45 Shield because of the size of the grip.

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mmc45414
09-19-2016, 07:48 AM
I can't understand why anyone would even consider a M&P 9 Full Size with the probability that it'll be an inaccurate pistol that needs $100+ in Apex goodies to get a decent trigger in.

The last one I bought had a pretty darn good trigger. I already had all of the Apex stuff planned so I went ahead with it but the trigger was fine out of the box.

Can't comment on accuracy because I had already bought the Apex barrel too... [emoji3]

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GMSweet
09-19-2016, 07:51 AM
Having moved from the M&P to the SIG P320 (because NH!) I admit I still love my M&P but question the accuracy. However, for the cash spent, I could've dropped in the Apex barrel and bought the M&P9c. The cost of vetting two new pistols plus holsters might now have been worth the squeeze. I feel for you folks in occupied territories where choice is infringed upon. I hope you can find a way out or through soon.

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TR675
09-19-2016, 03:25 PM
Replacing the ejector and EDP assembly with a 30274 ejector/white sound HRED has resolved all of my BTF problems on both new and old guns.

I've installed the 30274 and it made things worse. Now just about every round comes at my head; thankfully it just kind of dribbles out of the gun so it's just annoying and not painful. I'll install the HRED if I recover my taste for tinkering in the next day or two.


Apex Barrel in your M&P FS - done.

See taste for tinkering, above, and also, I thought that dang thing was vaporware? I forgot all about it.

Nephrology
09-19-2016, 03:29 PM
I've installed the 30274 and it made things worse. Now just about every round comes at my head; thankfully it just kind of dribbles out of the gun so it's just annoying and not painful. I'll install the HRED if I recover my taste for tinkering in the next day or two.



See taste for tinkering, above, and also, I thought that dang thing was vaporware? I forgot all about it.

Interesting - I found that installing the HRED on its own made things worse in my G19 (3rd gen, 2008 manufacture), and was completely corrected by the new ejector.

Joe in PNG
09-19-2016, 03:39 PM
Can I steal this.

Please do!

HCM
09-19-2016, 05:09 PM
I've installed the 30274 and it made things worse. Now just about every round comes at my head; thankfully it just kind of dribbles out of the gun so it's just annoying and not painful. I'll install the HRED if I recover my taste for tinkering in the next day or two.



See taste for tinkering, above, and also, I thought that dang thing was vaporware? I forgot all about it.

No they finally came out within the past year.

11B10
09-19-2016, 06:21 PM
Having moved from the M&P to the SIG P320 (because NH!) I admit I still love my M&P but question the accuracy. However, for the cash spent, I could've dropped in the Apex barrel and bought the M&P9c. The cost of vetting two new pistols plus holsters might now have been worth the squeeze. I feel for you folks in occupied territories where choice is infringed upon. I hope you can find a way out or through soon.

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Do you mind telling me what the P320 cost you? My local FFL has all sizes/calibers with white dots: $424.00 and SIGLITE's: $495.00.

Because I couldn't wait last November, I bought mine online (Bud's) for $507.00. They arrived at my local two months later.

GMSweet
09-19-2016, 06:30 PM
I think I paid $525 or $550 for the FS with the SigLites with the new trigger, slide catch, and frame. The compact was around $450 used with a laser (whoopee) . Stock was very limited when I was looking, but it was still cheaper than I could find online once FFL fees were factored in.

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Beat Trash
09-20-2016, 09:23 AM
Since this thread was started in 2011, the M&P9 has changed a bit. The triggers are somewhat nicer. The overall accuracy is a bit nicer as well. The best was I can describe it is that the accuracy is now consistently average. The M&P9c is still the crown jewel in the 9mm double stack M&P line. The only issue with the M&P9c is that it's either a bit too small or a bit too big, depending on what you intend to use it for.

I am very curious to see what the 2.0 M&P gun competing for the new MHS contract will end up being. I would love to see someone at S&W corporate wake up and make a version with a 4" barrel, a 15 round magazine and an overall height of 5.0". This happens to be the size of the Glock 19, and last time I checked, there isn't any problems selling this size of gun. Even in the military, this size of pistol is being used by a lot of folks.

If I were Gary Roberts and stuck in California, then the M&P9c would become my newest and best friend.

StraitR
09-20-2016, 09:38 AM
^^^^Nailed it, top to bottom, and couldn't agree more.

The current M&Pc is just a little too small for me, not liking sub-compacts due to my drastic drop in performance compared to pistols just marginally* bigger (*subjective). And while my hands are in no way huge, I dislike having to do the British tea sipping thing with my pinky during reloads to avoid being pinched as well.

I'm also very interested in the M&P 2.0, and would really like it if it turned out exactly as Beat Trash described.

ETA: I do agree with Doc taking on the M&P9c given the well documented Glock 10 round magazine issues. I would live with the 9c as well.

mmc45414
09-20-2016, 10:03 AM
I also wish Pearce or somebody would make a plus two floor plate for the 9c.

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Father of 3
09-20-2016, 12:15 PM
I have seen some people using the MecGar +2 extensions on the 9c which makes a nice little G19 alternative.

I may catch some heat for this, but Mac's recent reliability test of the M&P when compared to that of the one he did on Glock wasn't too confidence inspiring. I had an early M&P 9 that suffered early unlocking and hence accuracy issues. Traded for a Gen3 G17 and never looked back.

mmc45414
09-20-2016, 12:35 PM
I have seen some people using the MecGar +2 extensions on the 9c which makes a nice little G19 alternative.

I checked into that, but it looked like more of a hack than I wanted to start on.



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DocGKR
09-20-2016, 01:05 PM
Beat Trash and KeeFus are on target. Next year I'll go with the M&P9c and M&P45.

GMSweet
09-22-2016, 05:53 PM
So this thread inspired me to take the M&P to the range and compare my 25 yard performance against my P320FS. It's been around 30 days since my last live fire date and I decided tonrun my first 10 shots at 25y; 5 from each. P320FS was around a 4"-5" group (good for me) 3 of 5 in the head box, 2 slightly left. The M&P, not so much; 1 in the head box, 1 on paper and 3 in backstop. I guess I have a decision to make on the M&P soon.

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LockedBreech
09-22-2016, 08:08 PM
So this thread inspired me to take the M&P to the range and compare my 25 yard performance against my P320FS. It's been around 30 days since my last live fire date and I decided tonrun my first 10 shots at 25y; 5 from each. P320FS was around a 4"-5" group (good for me) 3 of 5 in the head box, 2 slightly left. The M&P, not so much; 1 in the head box, 1 on paper and 3 in backstop. I guess I have a decision to make on the M&P soon.

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The P320 frustrates me.

See, here's why. I have a VP9 and a G19G4. The P320 is an utterly redundant purchase for me. It makes no sense to get one. I have that niche filled well and completely. I have thus far resisted. But I held one at my crack dealer *ahem* FFL's shop and I loved it. Loved the feel, loved the trigger, loved the weight. Seems like a wonderful gun.

I think if you take it out a few more times and run the 320 consistently easier, get the M&P on the classifieds page and buy some mags and holsters for the 320.

Paul Sharp
09-22-2016, 11:13 PM
I really want to love the M&P9 full size. I've put a lot of effort into making it work, but it's just frustrating. All the positives folks consistently say with the same giant negative; accuracy. It really becomes an issue once I start shooting past the 25 yard line. It's weird. It's as if I suddenly find myself holding a different pistol. I can run a 3x5 drill back to the 20-25 yard line, then it just goes sideways. I was on the range recently working with some guys using 92s. During a break I grabbed my carry M&P9 to play around on the plate racks. At 50 yards I couldn't hit a single plate with 17 rounds. One of the guys standing nearby let me use his beat to death issued 92, with crappy sights and an even worse trigger. It took me 8 rounds to hit the 6 plates. Screw the M&P. For the money I've put into my M&Ps only to get marginally acceptable accuracy, I could have bought a 92A3, a handful of 18rd mags, and accuracy would be a non-issue.

HCM
09-23-2016, 01:54 AM
I really want to love the M&P9 full size. I've put a lot of effort into making it work, but it's just frustrating. All the positives folks consistently say with the same giant negative; accuracy. It really becomes an issue once I start shooting past the 25 yard line. It's weird. It's as if I suddenly find myself holding a different pistol. I can run a 3x5 drill back to the 20-25 yard line, then it just goes sideways. I was on the range recently working with some guys using 92s. During a break I grabbed my carry M&P9 to play around on the plate racks. At 50 yards I couldn't hit a single plate with 17 rounds. One of the guys standing nearby let me use his beat to death issued 92, with crappy sights and an even worse trigger. It took me 8 rounds to hit the 6 plates. Screw the M&P. For the money I've put into my M&Ps only to get marginally acceptable accuracy, I could have bought a 92A3, a handful of 18rd mags, and accuracy would be a non-issue.

What's worse is the M&P .45's are accurate. If it was all of them it would be easy to write them off. It would be nice to have an American designed 9mm which was actually worth a damn.

Kyle Reese
09-23-2016, 02:04 AM
I really want to love the M&P9 full size. I've put a lot of effort into making it work, but it's just frustrating. All the positives folks consistently say with the same giant negative; accuracy. It really becomes an issue once I start shooting past the 25 yard line. It's weird. It's as if I suddenly find myself holding a different pistol. I can run a 3x5 drill back to the 20-25 yard line, then it just goes sideways. I was on the range recently working with some guys using 92s. During a break I grabbed my carry M&P9 to play around on the plate racks. At 50 yards I couldn't hit a single plate with 17 rounds. One of the guys standing nearby let me use his beat to death issued 92, with crappy sights and an even worse trigger. It took me 8 rounds to hit the 6 plates. Screw the M&P. For the money I've put into my M&Ps only to get marginally acceptable accuracy, I could have bought a 92A3, a handful of 18rd mags, and accuracy would be a non-issue.

I had the same experience in 2011 with my 9mm M&Ps. During a Saturday at the range with Todd and our regular crew in Culpeper, I had to aim a foot low on the plate racks at 25 to get hits. During one drill, my accuracy had degraded to such a level I just stopped and put the gun away, back in the range bag. Luckily for me, TCinVA loaned me a Gen 3 Glock 17 and all of my accuracy related issues went away, Ricky tick.

I sold the M&Ps soon thereafter, with full disclosure. S&W, if you're reading this, it's been over a decade now since you released these guns. Please remedy the accuracy issues in the full sized 9mm guns. Thx.

GMSweet
09-23-2016, 03:56 AM
The nice thing about last night's trip for me was having my wife come with me shooting the P320C and being able to run it. 😀 I keep expecting her to end up with a G19 and forcing my hand to choose between a Glock platform for the house or us running different guns. As I told her last night when she handled the G19 again, "I'm not a fan of Glocks but I am a fan of you, so if a G19 is where it's at, we'll get one. " Since I have other options, perhaps I'll let S&W take a crack at "fixing" before sending down the road. The "value" in the M&P line was still OK with the Apex DCAEK, but not with a $200 barrel requirement.

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mmc45414
09-23-2016, 06:36 AM
I would love to see someone at S&W corporate wake up and make a version with a 4" barrel, a 15 round magazine and an overall height of 5.0". This happens to be the size of the Glock 19

Especially since it seems like just the 45c they already have.

spinmove_
09-23-2016, 06:48 AM
Especially since it seems like just the 45c they already have.

THIS is exactly why I never understood why S&W wouldn't just make the exact same sized pistol in a 9mm variant. Ensure that it has none of the accuracy issues that the fullsize has and you'd be rolling in the dough. Then you'd have the option of the thumb safety and/or the reliable 10-rd magazines and you'd have even more people knocking down your door wanting one.

Moshjath
09-23-2016, 06:49 AM
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems was showing off the M&P 2.0 at the 2016 Maneuver Warfare Convention at Fort Benning last week. They wouldn't let me take pictures of it, but it definitely seems improved (noticeably the trigger.) I asked specifically about long distance accuracy, and they stated that it was considerably better than an average M&P to meet the MHS contract requirements. I didn't get too much time to check it out, had to make it back to hear guest speakers.

RJ
09-23-2016, 07:04 AM
General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems was showing off the M&P 2.0 at the 2016 Maneuver Warfare Convention at Fort Benning last week. They wouldn't let me take pictures of it, but it definitely seems improved (noticeably the trigger.) I asked specifically about long distance accuracy, and they stated that it was considerably better than an average M&P to meet the MHS contract requirements. I didn't get too much time to check it out, had to make it back to hear guest speakers.

Well well well.

Very interesting to hear one of these has been spotted in the wild.

orionz06
09-23-2016, 07:32 AM
Well well well.

Very interesting to hear one of these has been spotted in the wild.

It's been around at least one other time.


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Moshjath
09-23-2016, 07:39 AM
It was pretty cool, though I found their lightweight medium machine gun to be the more interesting item they had displayed. Back to the M&P MHS entry, it is of course flat dark earth, it has a much improved grip and frame texture (almost like factory stippling), ambi safety, externally the slide is slightly reprofiled, with serrations towards the muzzle and finally more material removed from the sides of the slide. Still has holster and magazine compatibility with existing M&P's. If the accuracy has indeed improved, I may have to pick one up, because other than the accuracy, I am a fan of the M&P.

mmc45414
09-23-2016, 07:57 AM
THIS is exactly why I never understood why S&W wouldn't just make the exact same sized pistol in a 9mm variant. Ensure that it has none of the accuracy issues that the fullsize has and you'd be rolling in the dough. Then you'd have the option of the thumb safety and/or the reliable 10-rd magazines and you'd have even more people knocking down your door wanting one.

Perhaps in a sequence of events they will do so on the V2 platform. If they have been planning the revision there would be no reason to bring out anything new on the old platform. They have not offered anything really new for quite some time so maybe I am speculating in the right direction.

But yeah, when I carry my 45c I think damn, this is perfect, wish it held a few more rounds...



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RJ
09-23-2016, 09:48 AM
It was pretty cool, though I found their lightweight medium machine gun to be the more interesting item they had displayed. Back to the M&P MHS entry, it is of course flat dark earth, it has a much improved grip and frame texture (almost like factory stippling), ambi safety, externally the slide is slightly reprofiled, with serrations towards the muzzle and finally more material removed from the sides of the slide. Still has holster and magazine compatibility with existing M&P's. If the accuracy has indeed improved, I may have to pick one up, because other than the accuracy, I am a fan of the M&P.

Me too.

I'd like to fantasize about S&W offering a 1:1 exchange of first gen M&P 9mm's for the new pistol. Now that would be cool.

Unfortunately, they are as likely to do this as the Fireclean guys were to take me up on my suggestion to just be quiet about the Crisco thing and do a $10 coupon on the 2 oz. bottle. Ain't gonna happen. :(

Paul Sharp
09-23-2016, 10:09 AM
What's worse is the M&P .45's are accurate. If it was all of them it would be easy to write them off. It would be nice to have an American designed 9mm which was actually worth a damn.

Exactly. I was gung-ho for the M&P line after shooting the M&P45f. This was perfect, finally an S&W that will compete with the Glock. Better ergos, with the S&W legacy behind it, I had visions of a piece of Americana in my holster. Points like a 1911, but with more rounds.

At this point I've purchased 6 M&P9f pistols. 6 are great 0-15 yard guns. 2 are good 0-20 yard guns, and 1 is a decent 0-25 yard gun. None are even worth shooting past 25 yards, it's a waste of ammo and extremely frustrating.

That's an initial investment of around $500 each, not sure exactly how much I've spent on sights, triggers, mags, and support gear but I do know it's enough to have purchased a whole lot of ammo and/or classes. Which I could have shot with a 92 or a G17 and been much happier with the results.

Even if S&W offered a 1:1 trade for their new 2.0?

No thanks S&W. This relationship is over. It's not you... Never mind, it's you.


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orionz06
09-23-2016, 10:20 AM
The problem for me is that some of my best shooting was with an M&P. The P320 seems to feel familiar so hopefully I get some time this weekend to shoot it.


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breakingtime91
09-23-2016, 11:22 AM
It is gonna be hard not to pick up a MP if the accuracy is really improved and they introduce a mp9c 2.0 also.. probably the best shooting sub compact out there. Loved mine as a carry gun.

LSP972
09-23-2016, 02:06 PM
It is gonna be hard not to pick up a MP if the accuracy is really improved and they introduce a mp9c 2.0 also.. probably the best shooting sub compact out there. Loved mine as a carry gun.

It should be easy. Instead of a no-accuracy M&P, spend half of that money on a Super Stigma (an SD9VE).

.

breakingtime91
09-23-2016, 02:29 PM
It should be easy. Instead of a no-accuracy M&P, spend half of that money on a Super Stigma (an SD9VE).

.

So I have heard that from a lot of people, which is interesting to me. I am pretty set on using my HKs for the foreseeable future because lack of time and money (new baby). They are also great guns and do everything I need (reliable and accurate). If I ever get the itch to switch to something different the mp 2.0 would get a hard look if I was looking for a striker fired gun.

Moshjath
09-23-2016, 02:51 PM
As previously noted, I'd much prefer to appendix carry an M&P with ambi safety to my current G19/5-shot SME combo. And yes, I already have a gadget on order.

LSP972
09-23-2016, 03:59 PM
A
So I have heard that from a lot of people, which is interesting to me. .

It's simple truth. The original Stigma (Sigma... SW9VE) was a simple Glock clone; and a horrible ball of suck. The new "Super Sigma" is a near-totally re-designed handgun. The main improvements are a better trigger and MUCH more ergonomic grip frame. Both pistols are rather accurate...the original Sigma just has a trigger that would make a freight train take a dirt road. Seriously, it is that bad... or worse. I have examined and shot many dozens of both examples. So when I ran across a sale of the new version at Academy Sports, for less than $300, I plunked down the plastic. A colleague and I put over 300 rounds of varied Euro Pellet ammunition through it in less than an hour, and it performed admirably.

It is now clean, and a "stash piece"... Where it needs to be for emergencies, should one of those raise its head. And I'll tell you something else; if I could only have one, I'd choose it over more than a few "popular" service-type pistols the cognoscenti are so enthralled with.

Anyway... At the risk of annoying some folks, the M&P has always caused me to yawn. I've examined and shot quite a few, and almost all of them worked well (we do not do accuracy "tests"... We just see if the thing goes bang when it is supposed to). But it seemed like, every time I turned around, there was some other malady that was causing folks to spend large bucks on aftermarket "upgrades". That is like... retarded... to me. Sorry if that upsets anyone.

Not really...;)

.

spinmove_
09-23-2016, 11:18 PM
A

It's simple truth. The original Stigma (Sigma... SW9VE) was a simple Glock clone; and a horrible ball of suck. The new "Super Sigma" is a near-totally re-designed handgun. The main improvements are a better trigger and MUCH more ergonomic grip frame. Both pistols are rather accurate...the original Sigma just has a trigger that would make a freight train take a dirt road. Seriously, it is that bad... or worse. I have examined and shot many dozens of both examples. So when I ran across a sale of the new version at Academy Sports, for less than $300, I plunked down the plastic. A colleague and I put over 300 rounds of varied Euro Pellet ammunition through it in less than an hour, and it performed admirably.

It is now clean, and a "stash piece"... Where it needs to be for emergencies, should one of those raise its head. And I'll tell you something else; if I could only have one, I'd choose it over more than a few "popular" service-type pistols the cognoscenti are so enthralled with.

Anyway... At the risk of annoying some folks, the M&P has always caused me to yawn. I've examined and shot quite a few, and almost all of them worked well (we do not do accuracy "tests"... We just see if the thing goes bang when it is supposed to). But it seemed like, every time I turned around, there was some other malady that was causing folks to spend large bucks on aftermarket "upgrades". That is like... retarded... to me. Sorry if that upsets anyone.

Not really...;)

.

I like the concept of the M&P9fs. Its implementation has left me greatly wanting. This is the reason I'm firmly invested NOT in the M&P platform. YMMV of course, but unless something drastic changes and is somehow fiscally beneficially for me to jump ship, I'll calmly watch it's progression from the sidelines.

SteveB
09-24-2016, 05:51 AM
What's worse is the M&P .45's are accurate. If it was all of them it would be easy to write them off. It would be nice to have an American designed 9mm which was actually worth a damn.

I've given up on the M&P 9's; too many issues and I've been through a pile of them. Having said that, the polymer .45 that best meets my standards for accuracy, reliability and ergonomics is the M&P45. Mine all shoot great with factory barrels and fit my hands.