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PPGMD
02-11-2014, 02:50 PM
They turn the range rules into basically a loyalty pledge.

IDPA Indoor Nationals Match Participant Code of Conduct

I will follow all of the safety rules of IDPA and Smith & Wesson.
I will follow all commands and instructions of the Match Director, Safety Officers, and any official representative of Smith & Wesson.
I have read and will abide by the rules in the current IDPA rulebook.
Prior to and during the match, I will refrain from the use of alcohol, substances, or medications that may negatively impact my ability to participate safely in the match or that may impact the safety of other match participants or bystanders.
I will not communicate with others in a threatening, harassing or abusive manner, and will not engage in the use of off-color remarks and jokes or profanity during the course of my participation in the match. I will not physically touch another person participating in an IDPA event without their consent unless it is necessary to address an immediate safety issue.
I will treat all match participants with respect. I will not participate in any discriminatory actions or behavior against others for any reason, including, but not limited to, their IDPA classification, shooting abilities, race, sex, religion, age, disability or national origin.
I will represent my sport in a professional manner through my behavior and dress, in accordance with the standards established by the Match Director and Smith & Wesson.
I will refrain from disparagement or inappropriate criticism of IDPA or other shooting sports, their officials, and rules of match competition.
I will always be a champion for IDPA and promote IDPA in the best light possible.
I understand that the failure to follow this Code of Conduct or any other commands or instructions of the Match Director, any Safety Officers, or any official representative of Smith & Wesson may result in my disqualification or exclusion from participation in the IDPA Indoor Nationals at the sole discretion of Smith & Wesson, and may also result in the revocation of my IDPA membership.



SIGNED UNDER THE PAINS AND PENALTIES OF PERJURY THIS ____ day of February, 2014.

Signature: __________________________________
Printed Name: _______________________________
Witness: ___________________________________

Under PAINS AND PENALTIES OF PERJURY they do realize that perjury doesn't apply in this case? I don't know if IDPA HQ knows that this is going on, but they are really stepping on their crank if they don't make this loyalty pledge go away.

On top of that the MDs are making their own rules:

Flashlights:
Flashlights are optional on all stages. There will be low/no light stages. Check the IDPA rulebook on what is legal for flashlights. S&W is of the opinion the charging of sights violates the basic premise behind concealed carry. In a street encounter, no one would have time to charge sights before dealing with a threat. A request has been sent to the rule clarification team on this issue. At this time, a clarification has not been released. S&W will not allow sights to be charged with a flashlight at the 2014 match. We feel it is best to err on the cautious side until the rule clarification is issued. Violations will result in a FTDR penalty.

So there isn't a rule against it, so we are going to FTDR you until we pressure IDPA to make a rule against it.

orionz06
02-11-2014, 03:02 PM
Since when does "in a street encounter" matter to IDPA?







For those that care I am an active IDPA participant and RSO and I adopt their rules for an annual carbine match I host.

ToddG
02-11-2014, 03:16 PM
Cluster.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

gtmtnbiker98
02-11-2014, 03:34 PM
I would imagine it is either one, a joke, or two an overzealous range Natzi with a little too much control regarding the match. It is growing harder and harder to be an Ambassador for IDPA. Let me tell you.

jetfire
02-11-2014, 03:37 PM
I will not physically touch another person participating in an IDPA event without their consent unless it is necessary to address an immediate safety issue.

I am going to wear a t-shirt that says "Free Hugs".


will not engage in the use of off-color remarks and jokes or profanity during the course of my participation in the match.

This removes at least 75% of my match vocabulary.

Kyle Reese
02-11-2014, 03:40 PM
LOLZ.

JMS
02-11-2014, 03:45 PM
Since when does "in a street encounter" matter to IDPA?

Since they use it to falsely market themselves as the "realistic" gun-game. If they'd just drop the "D" in their name, they'd not have to keep up the riduculous pretense.

They could just go with "Here's our rules, because **** you, THAT'S why....!" and be completely legit in the decision, because it'd be infinitely more honest.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 03:45 PM
They turn the range rules into basically a loyalty pledge.
Under PAINS AND PENALTIES OF PERJURY they do realize that perjury doesn't apply in this case? I don't know if IDPA HQ knows that this is going on, but they are really stepping on their crank if they don't make this loyalty pledge go away.
On top of that the MDs are making their own rules:
So there isn't a rule against it, so we are going to FTDR you until we pressure IDPA to make a rule against it.

I wouldn't call this a loyalty pledge. I would call this a pledge to be civil and respectful.

This is a NATIONAL IDPA SANCTIONED MATCH, and we should expect people to show good behavior, be respectful, non-critical, and polite. I have no problem signing this Code of Conduct. And, I expect all my fellow competitors to follow it as well. Now, it is always possible if I screw up a stage that I might use the f-word or the s-word and the SO might overhear it. I would expect to get a warning rather than an expulsion, but I have now been warned it could be more severe. This Code also is also created to shield S&W from legal liability should someone behave badly and the victim or perpetrator sue S&W or IDPA.

IDPA (and other shooting sports for that matter) are predominantly male and white, with many coming from LE and Military and sometimes think we can behave like we are in a football locker room (although even football locker rooms are falling under the "profanity free zone" in some places). Women are more commonly in squads and working as SO's, minorities are increasingly participating, corporations like S&W who host events have their own profanity prohibitions, even some ranges have prohibitions on profanity and rude conduct. There is absolutely nothing wrong with creating an atmosphere that is civil, polite and respectful of the people who organize and host and sanction the event. If you want to criticize IDPA, there are plenty of online forums to do it. And, I am sure that IDPA staff are willing to hear feedback at the event given in a private and respectful manner. Furthermore, we are there to compete and we don't want people distracting us or rattling us to get us off our game....that is just good sportsmanship.

On the no-charging rule on flashlights. The Match Director has made this decision and it is within his rights to do so, setting aside IDPA rules. MD's have a lot of discretion in how to run the match. Just because they make this rule for the INdoor Nationals does not make it a National rule, so to suggest MD's can just make up rules is incorrect. And, it is not unreasonable to make this rule under the reasoning that S&W MD gave. Who has time to tell the perp to wait while you charge up your sights? I agree with the ruling, and I expect that IDPA will endorse it as well. The test that give each rule is: Is the rule fair to all competitors?...This rule is. Shooters have time to get tritium's added or pick a gun with tritium's on it or choose a shooting/flashlight method that works for them without tritiums.

People will find fault with ANY sport, from football to Olympic shooting. But good sportsmanship is universal to every one. The playing field should be fair and clear of distractions and diversions and inappropriate behavior. That is what IDPA and S&W are doing. And, most USPSA matches and clubs often have similar codes of conduct. Reference rule 10.6.2 which says you may be expelled for "behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute."

I would encourage you to think about what you are really proposing: To do away with a Code of Conduct and allow disrespectful and rude behavior and criticizing a sport at a National event of which you are a participant....that alternative makes no sense.
Cody

ToddG
02-11-2014, 03:47 PM
Seriously, whoever came up with this is nuts. It's a freaking pistol match, not a lifetime service commitment. I'd cancel my slot if I had one.

_JD_
02-11-2014, 03:58 PM
Seriously, whoever came up with this is nuts. It's a freaking pistol match, not a lifetime service commitment. I'd cancel my slot if I had one.

I'm damn near close to dropping my membership and canceling our club's affiliation.

Did you guys catch the Code of Conduct Sections of the new rule book?


03.22. IDPA Shooter Responsibilities and Code of Conduct
By shooting IDPA Matches, I agree to the following:
3.22.1. I understand that it is a privilege, and not a right, to be an IDPA Shooter.
3.22.2. I will follow all of the safety rules of IDPA and the host range. The safety of the shooters, match officials, and bystanders shall always be my primary objective.
3.22.3. Prior to and during a match, I will refrain from the use of alcohol, substances, or medications that may negatively impact my ability to shoot safely.
3.22.4. I will maintain a current IDPA membership after my first match.
3.22.5. I will maintain an accurate Classification by shooting a Classifier at least every 12 months. (Unless a Master or Distinguished Master Classification is attained, or a Match Performance Promotion has occurred in the last 12 months.)
3.22.6. I recognize that it is my responsibility to maintain a working knowledge of the current IDPA rulebook.
3.22.7. I will adhere to the IDPA purpose and principles and will not willfully break any IDPA rule.
3.22.8. I will listen carefully and refrain from talking during shooters’ briefings and stage briefings.
3.22.9. I understand it is my responsibility to be ready to shoot when called to the line.
3.22.10. I understand it is my duty to help reset stages between shooters unless I am the current shooter, the on-deck shooter or have just finished shooting.
3.22.11. I will not communicate with others in a threatening, harassing, or abusive manner.
3.22.12. It is my responsibility to check my match scores within the verification period to see that they are correct.
3.22.13. It is my responsibility to check my Classifications in the on-line database to verify that they are correct and to initiate corrective action if they are not correct.
3.22.14. If I have a question or an issue, my first contact is with the CSO at the match, then the MD, then the AC, then IDPA HQ.
3.22.15. I understand that violations of these responsibilities and code of conduct may result in my disqualification from a match, and/or revocation of my IDPA membership


The S&W oath, decree, or whatever it is isn't too far off from this.

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 04:02 PM
The no-charging-of-luminescent-sights rule is straight-up discrimination against HK, IMHO. Who else is shipping guns with luminescent sights as standard equipment?

JV_
02-11-2014, 04:08 PM
I thought Beretta had them too.

john556
02-11-2014, 04:13 PM
What are the chances of the sights being charged while they sit in a holster all day? HK is discirminating against HK by putting those things they claim are pistol sights on $900 guns.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 04:13 PM
Since they use it to falsely market themselves as the "realistic" gun-game. If they'd just drop the "D" in their name, they'd not have to keep up the riduculous pretense. They could just go with "Here's our rules, because **** you, THAT'S why....!" and be completely legit in the decision, because it'd be infinitely more honest.

IDPA does not market itself as a realistic gun game. From the IDPA web site:
The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters. The organization now boasts membership of more than 20,000, including members in 50 foreign countries. One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared toward the new or average shooter, yet is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced shooter. The founders developed the sport so that practical gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An interested person can spend a minimal amount on equipment and still be competitive. The main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not equipment or gamesmanship.

The Fundamental Principles are a guide to all members.
1.1.1. Promote safe and proficient use of firearms and equipment suitable for concealed carry self-defense.
1.1.2. Offer a practical shooting sport encouraging competitors to develop skills and fellowship with like-minded shooters.
1.1.3. Provide a level playing field for all competitors that solely tests the skill and ability of each individual, not their equipment.
1.1.4. Provide separate divisions for equipment and classifications for shooters, such that firearms with similar characteristics are grouped together and people with similar skills compete against each other.
1.1.5. Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire, and test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters.
1.1.6. Strongly encourage all IDPA members to support our sponsors when making purchases of equipment and accessories. Industry sponsors have been instrumental in IDPA’s success at all levels including Club, State, Regional, National, and International levels.
1.1.7. Develop and maintain an infrastructure that will allow IDPA to be responsive to our shooters. While IDPA can never be all things to all people, respectful constructive suggestions from our members, which follow IDPA Fundamental Principles, will always be welcome.

IDPA says these are realistic courses of fire. That is not false as some of these COF are based on actual incidents, and, except for "classifier" stages are intended to SIMULATE a life threatening situation in a venue that has ranges that limit the directions bullets may go and be done so in a safe manner. The only realistic gun game I can think of would involve force-on-force simunitions training, and even that has it's drawbacks (facial expressions covered up by masks).

I would appreciate it if we dialed down the anti-IDPA rhetoric....IDPA helps beginner and average shooters get into a sport that improves their skills and gun-handling and introduces them to cover and concealment and non-threats and movement and moving targets. That is a good thing, or would you rather tell them to stand at a stall in a range and practice shooting a single target all day? Are there better ways to learn these skills? Sure. Are beginners and average shooters going to pay for them and feel comfortable attending them?...Not many.

We have the same goal here and we are your brothers in arms, so please give us some respect.
Cody

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 04:16 PM
I'm damn near close to dropping my membership and canceling our club's affiliation.

Did you guys catch the Code of Conduct Sections of the new rule book?


03.22. IDPA Shooter Responsibilities and Code of Conduct
By shooting IDPA Matches, I agree to the following:
3.22.1. I understand that it is a privilege, and not a right, to be an IDPA Shooter.
3.22.2. I will follow all of the safety rules of IDPA and the host range. The safety of the shooters, match officials, and bystanders shall always be my primary objective.
3.22.3. Prior to and during a match, I will refrain from the use of alcohol, substances, or medications that may negatively impact my ability to shoot safely.
3.22.4. I will maintain a current IDPA membership after my first match.
3.22.5. I will maintain an accurate Classification by shooting a Classifier at least every 12 months. (Unless a Master or Distinguished Master Classification is attained, or a Match Performance Promotion has occurred in the last 12 months.)
3.22.6. I recognize that it is my responsibility to maintain a working knowledge of the current IDPA rulebook.
3.22.7. I will adhere to the IDPA purpose and principles and will not willfully break any IDPA rule.
3.22.8. I will listen carefully and refrain from talking during shooters’ briefings and stage briefings.
3.22.9. I understand it is my responsibility to be ready to shoot when called to the line.
3.22.10. I understand it is my duty to help reset stages between shooters unless I am the current shooter, the on-deck shooter or have just finished shooting.
3.22.11. I will not communicate with others in a threatening, harassing, or abusive manner.
3.22.12. It is my responsibility to check my match scores within the verification period to see that they are correct.
3.22.13. It is my responsibility to check my Classifications in the on-line database to verify that they are correct and to initiate corrective action if they are not correct.
3.22.14. If I have a question or an issue, my first contact is with the CSO at the match, then the MD, then the AC, then IDPA HQ.
3.22.15. I understand that violations of these responsibilities and code of conduct may result in my disqualification from a match, and/or revocation of my IDPA membership


The S&W oath, decree, or whatever it is isn't too far off from this.

And exactly why would you have a problem following this code of conduct? What is it that you want to do that this code prohibits? Or is it just the idea that there is a code?
Cody

_JD_
02-11-2014, 04:18 PM
We have the same goal here and we are your brothers in arms, so please give us some respect.
Cody

With all due respect,

US? What us? I think you mean "You" there are plenty us here in this thread and other threads that are IDPA members that are simply sharing our feelings of being...disenfranchised? Or otherwise unhappy with the direction of IDPA. That's it. It's not like we're standing outside the gate of your club with signs saying "USPSA MATCH THIS WAY" with an arrow pointing down the road.

orionz06
02-11-2014, 04:18 PM
"Simulates self defense scenarios and real life encounters" sounds an awful lot like an attempt at a realistic gun game.




I think dues paying members can say what they wish. It's not anti-IDPA, it's I wish IDPA made more sense that a drunk uncle at the reunion.

_JD_
02-11-2014, 04:22 PM
And exactly why would you have a problem following this code of conduct? What is it that you want to do that this code prohibits? Or is it just the idea that there is a code?
Cody

It's multiple things.

I think that the required membership thing is bogus, at least for level 1/local matches. I know a lot of shooters that will stop shooting should that be enforced at the local level and they'll go to our USPSA matches and be welcomed with open arms.

I think it's bunk that if a guy is laid up for whatever reason and doesn't shoot a classier that be can have his membership canceled.

I think that overall IDPA is getting a little too tightly wound.

We're grown men and women and we can figure out that guns, drugs, and alcohol don't mix. What's next? A breathalyzer at sign in?


We get it, you like IDPA. I do to for the most part but if you don't like the content of a thread that you didn't start, don't participate. Or at least don't treat it like defending IDPA is your cross to bear.

ToddG
02-11-2014, 04:30 PM
What are the chances of the sights being charged while they sit in a holster all day? HK is discirminating against HK by putting those things they claim are pistol sights on $900 guns.

Hello Real World, please meet Purely Competitive Sport.

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 04:34 PM
This is a NATIONAL IDPA SANCTIONED MATCH, and we should expect people to show good behavior, be respectful, non-critical, and polite. I have no problem signing this Code of Conduct. And, I expect all my fellow competitors to follow it as well. Now, it is always possible if I screw up a stage that I might use the f-word or the s-word and the SO might overhear it. I would expect to get a warning rather than an expulsion, but I have now been warned it could be more severe. This Code also is also created to shield S&W from legal liability should someone behave badly and the victim or perpetrator sue S&W or IDPA.

I would encourage you to think about what you are really proposing: To do away with a Code of Conduct and allow disrespectful and rude behavior and criticizing a sport at a National event of which you are a participant....that alternative makes no sense.

I've shot a number of state, area, and national matches. I don't remember ever signing anything like that. Typically I just sign a waiver/range rules. At no time have I agreed to not criticize the sport, not to curse, or any of the other over the top rules in that document.

And you seem to think that doing away with this would turn it into a match where we will pinch women's butts, and grab their boobs. But that isn't the case.


It's not like we're standing outside the gate of your club with signs saying "USPSA MATCH THIS WAY" with an arrow pointing down the road.

That is a good idea. I need to find a sign shop.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 04:35 PM
"Simulates self defense scenarios and real life encounters" sounds an awful lot like an attempt at a realistic gun game.
I think dues paying members can say what they wish. It's not anti-IDPA, it's I wish IDPA made more sense that a drunk uncle at the reunion.
Last time I checked, "sounds an awful lot like..." and "are" are not the same thing. Further clarification can be described under rule 1.1.5.
The intent is to have a realistic COF, as much as is possible in a limited safe range venue.

And comparing IDPA rules to something a "drunk uncle at the reunion" made up is insulting. It may not be what YOU like, or it may not be the realistic gun game you want it to be, but no reason to lower it to that level.
Cody

jetfire
02-11-2014, 04:37 PM
There are pretty big differences between the Code of Conduct in the rulebook and the S&W one. Like this:


I will not communicate with others in a threatening, harassing or abusive manner, and will not engage in the use of off-color remarks and jokes or profanity during the course of my participation in the match. I will not physically touch another person participating in an IDPA event without their consent unless it is necessary to address an immediate safety issue.

Or this


I will represent my sport in a professional manner through my behavior and dress, in accordance with the standards established by the Match Director and Smith & Wesson.
I will refrain from disparagement or inappropriate criticism of IDPA or other shooting sports, their officials, and rules of match competition.
I will always be a champion for IDPA and promote IDPA in the best light possible.

The code of conduct in the rule book are basically guidelines for decent IDPA member conduct. I don't really have a problem with them. I have a problem with being told what I can and can't say about IDPA, what I can and can't wear to an IDPA match, and being told I have to promote IDPA "in the best light possible."

I have been a huge booster for IDPA - I ran their social media for a while, it was the first shooting sport I ever played, and I believe that it is a net positive benefit for the shooting sports. My company is a match sponsor of Indoor and Outdoor Nationals, as well as state and regional matches. The S&W Code of Conduct is the sort of thing that pushes my automatic disobedience buttons, because in the words of my generation: "you're not the boss of me."

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 04:38 PM
What are the chances of the sights being charged while they sit in a holster all day? HK is discirminating against HK by putting those things they claim are pistol sights on $900 guns.

I honestly don't think that banning charging of sights is a BAD idea. I just don't think that that equipment rules should be something that MDs get to decide. They basically say in the announcement, "There is no rule against it, so we are going to make up our own."

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 04:44 PM
With all due respect,

US? What us? I think you mean "You" there are plenty us here in this thread and other threads that are IDPA members that are simply sharing our feelings of being...disenfranchised? Or otherwise unhappy with the direction of IDPA. That's it. It's not like we're standing outside the gate of your club with signs saying "USPSA MATCH THIS WAY" with an arrow pointing down the road.

By US, I mean the handgun shooting community and industry generally. I have no problem with people providing feedback in a respectful manner. It is the ridiculing and derogatory remarks that don't help. If you want to suggest that IDPA needs to change certain things, then just do that in a positive manner. And, some here have said exactly that IDPA should be avoided and USPSA is the only way. Some here have gone beyond that.

Participants in IDPA are building their skills, supporting the industry by buying products, enjoying the competition, and growing in their knowledge. If they want to go further, they move to USPSA and tactical training classes that are more practical. IDPA doesn't claim to be the be-all and end-all, but the place to begin.
Cody

john556
02-11-2014, 04:44 PM
Hello Real World, please meet Purely Competitive Sport.

I get that is the current reality of the game, but they do attemp, however poorly at times, to add some level realism to it as a "tactical" scenario based game.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 04:48 PM
The S&W Code of Conduct is the sort of thing that pushes my automatic disobedience buttons, because in the words of my generation: "you're not the boss of me."

I think this is the underlying reason behind a lot of negative talk....including me. In the end I read the code and see if I can abide by it...and I can.
Cody

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 04:50 PM
Seems to me that the prior-restraint-on-speech rules are there because IDPA & S&W want lots of good video footage without having to bleep competitors (*cough*Caleb*cough) every 10 seconds. You know, so they can compete with "3-Gun Nation" for eyeballs.

That said, this totally rubs me the wrong way, and like Caleb said, firmly pushes my automatic-disobedience button. And I'm not just saying that because I have to crank up my internal filter to "11" when posting here because I casually deploy profanity the way Picasso used oil paints.

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 04:58 PM
Seems to me that the prior-restraint-on-speech rules are there because IDPA & S&W want lots of good video footage without having to bleep competitors (*cough*Caleb*cough) every 10 seconds. You know, so they can compete with "3-Gun Nation" for eyeballs.

Unless you are on the Super Squad the chance of you getting video taped is quite low. I've known matches where shooting media like Shooting USA and all that were there, and not a single minute was filmed of a division champion shooting because someone outside Super Squad won it.

jetfire
02-11-2014, 04:58 PM
I will say that they had much the same code of conduct thingy for the BUG Match, and that didn't seem to stop anyone from having fun. It's mostly a tool that they can use if they need to eject someone for unruly behavior. Which I've seen!

TheRoland
02-11-2014, 05:19 PM
In the end I read the code and see if I can abide by it...and I can.
Cody

Can you? Are you a champion for IDPA always? What about when you're talking about things other than shooting sports?

Above, where you describe doing USPSA or training as "going further" sounds reasonable, but not the "best possible light" you could have used to promote IDPA, no?

Speech codes suck. They are vague and unprincipled.

trailrunner
02-11-2014, 05:24 PM
I'm a bit of an outsider on this, but making someone sign rules of conduct, including how they dress and what they can say about the organization, strikes me as a bit overbearing, and also a bit creepy. Am I going to a shooting match, or the country club? And making me promise to never say anything bad about the organization? Really? What are they afraid of?

I've done other non-shooting competitions, such as bike races and triathlons, and I've organized and promoted these events. Signing an injury waiver is fine, but I would never force my participants to agree to a restriction on speech. If any racer got too mouthy, especially with one of my officials, we could have him removed from the race, and we could report his conduct to the licensing officials. Other than that, they were free to say whatever they wanted to say about my event, good or bad.

jetfire
02-11-2014, 05:35 PM
I just had a thought, does this mean that because of the "no vulgar stuff" rule, IDPA won't allow a Spike's Tactical Team to shoot their matches?

Mr_White
02-11-2014, 05:38 PM
IDPA does not market itself as a realistic gun game.


a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters


1.1.5. Provide shooters with practical and realistic courses of fire, and test skills that could be required to survive life-threatening encounters


IDPA says these are realistic courses of fire. That is not false as some of these COF are based on actual incidents

It seems like you are sometimes saying IDPA doesn't say it is realistic, but at other times you do, and IDPA clearly appears to say it's realistic based on its published statements.

What am I missing here?

Mr_White
02-11-2014, 05:46 PM
I would appreciate it if we dialed down the anti-IDPA rhetoric
...
If you want to suggest that IDPA needs to change certain things, then just do that in a positive manner
...
We have the same goal here and we are your brothers in arms, so please give us some respect.

Cody, there is obviously a recurring dynamic in these threads where you defend IDPA against everyone or almost everyone.

You note that many people here don't seem to respect IDPA.

Maybe I am going out on a limb here, but I suspect that some of us may feel disrespected by IDPA. Many people have given respectful voice to our constructive suggestions. Mine weren't just ignored. IDPA clarified that what I wanted absolutely would not be allowed. Joyce printed that 'take or leave it, we heard you and we don't care' message in the recent Tactical Journal. Despite the platitudes about listening to the membership, I think they've made their actual position much clearer through their actions.

To the point of the discussion at hand, I think the document posted comes across as disrespectful to the competitors required to sign in the circumstances in which it's being used.

What do you think people are going to do about that? We are going to express our negative opinions. In light of IDPA's apparent lack of interest in listening to its members and prospective members, we are going to express those opinions somewhere other than IDPA's suggestion box. That's how it works.

If you want IDPA to get more respect, maybe they need to do a better job earning it. They could start by listening.

Mr_White
02-11-2014, 05:56 PM
IDPA Indoor Nationals Match Participant Code of Conduct
1.I will follow all of the safety rules of IDPA and Smith & Wesson.
2.I will follow all commands and instructions of the Match Director, Safety Officers, and any official representative of Smith & Wesson.
3.I have read and will abide by the rules in the current IDPA rulebook.
4.Prior to and during the match, I will refrain from the use of alcohol, substances, or medications that may negatively impact my ability to participate safely in the match or that may impact the safety of other match participants or bystanders.
5.I will not communicate with others in a threatening, harassing or abusive manner, and will not engage in the use of off-color remarks and jokes or profanity during the course of my participation in the match. I will not physically touch another person participating in an IDPA event without their consent unless it is necessary to address an immediate safety issue.
6.I will treat all match participants with respect. I will not participate in any discriminatory actions or behavior against others for any reason, including, but not limited to, their IDPA classification, shooting abilities, race, sex, religion, age, disability or national origin.
7.I will represent my sport in a professional manner through my behavior and dress, in accordance with the standards established by the Match Director and Smith & Wesson.
8.I will refrain from disparagement or inappropriate criticism of IDPA or other shooting sports, their officials, and rules of match competition.
9.I will always be a champion for IDPA and promote IDPA in the best light possible.
10.I understand that the failure to follow this Code of Conduct or any other commands or instructions of the Match Director, any Safety Officers, or any official representative of Smith & Wesson may result in my disqualification or exclusion from participation in the IDPA Indoor Nationals at the sole discretion of Smith & Wesson, and may also result in the revocation of my IDPA membership.



SIGNED UNDER THE PAINS AND PENALTIES OF PERJURY THIS ____ day of February, 2014.


Which puts them a decade ahead of the current rule set. ;)


(Sorry, cclaxton, that was a low jab at the sport. It's just that the current rule set makes it more like the Nineties version of Zoot Shooters (http://www.zootshooters.com/), rather than Real Street™ like it markets itself to be.)


That is a fair criticism, and one in which I agree. Maybe you have heard this saying before: Change is not a process for the impatient. (http://www.searchquotes.com/quotation/Change_is_not_a_process_for_the_impatient./11243/) Barbara Reinhold.
But sometimes the "tried and true" ways are worth knowing.
Cody

I don't know, but to my untrained eye it looks to me like you could be in violation of 8 and 9. Prepare for the PAINS AND PENALTIES OF PERJURY! :p

So...what are the PAINS AND PENALTIES of perjury, in the context of an IDPA document?

gtmtnbiker98
02-11-2014, 05:58 PM
And exactly why would you have a problem following this code of conduct? What is it that you want to do that this code prohibits? Or is it just the idea that there is a code?
Cody

Truthfully? The Perjury statement is a damn joke. It's a pistol game, not a tax return or grand jury testimony.

_JD_
02-11-2014, 06:01 PM
I don't know, but to my untrained eye it looks to me like you could be in violation of 8 and 9. Prepare for the PAINS AND PENALTIES OF PERJURY! :p

So...what are the PAINS AND PENALTIES of perjury, in the context of an IDPA document?

They take your patch off your vest and stop sending you the "Tactical Journal?"

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 06:02 PM
It seems like you are sometimes saying IDPA doesn't say it is realistic, but at other times you do, and IDPA clearly appears to say it's realistic based on its published statements. What am I missing here?

They are realistic COURSES OF FIRE, not a realist GUN GAME. A COF is just that...a COF which is only a part of the sport. IDPA tries to make the COF realistic, as much as is possible for limited directions that bullets may fly and within the constraints of operating a safe range. A "realistic gun game" is completely over-stating what IDPA has stated and completely over-states the game itself. IDPA is not trying to be a realistic gun game. IDPA specifically describes the game as a SIMULATION, and says that it "tests skills that could be required to survive a life threatening situation."

It TESTS SKILLS in a competition setting. In order for people to improve their skills, they have to work on the most fundamental SKILLS for practical shooting: Grip, trigger control, sighting, target identification, using cover, using concealment, shooting while moving, etc.

There is a significant difference. As members of the shooting community and industry, we should be supporting IDPA AND helping it to improve. Ridiculing it and trying to redefine it in negative terms in order to attack it only serves to hurt the organization. Respectful suggestions to improve the sport are welcome....really.
Cody

john556
02-11-2014, 06:10 PM
I just had a thought, does this mean that because of the "no vulgar stuff" rule, IDPA won't allow a Spike's Tactical Team to shoot their matches?

You win.

littlejerry
02-11-2014, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE=cclaxton;199518]IDPA does not market itself as a realistic gun game. From the IDPA web site:
[COLOR=#363636][FONT=Helvetica Neue]The International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) is the governing body of a shooting sport that simulates self-defense scenarios and real life encounters.


So what about "simulates self defense scenarios and real life encounters" doesn't sound like realistic gun game to you?

orionz06
02-11-2014, 06:17 PM
I would be content if they dropped any reference to "real", "simulated", "street", "defense", etc and just called it what it is, a more limited version of USPSA. USPSA Lite would be fine. Minor League USPSA works too.

Without having shot a KSTG match I can tell ya right away I despise a few of the rules, I do, and I have posted it. Because there are no efforts to pretend it is a simulation of me wearing a vest while carrying two bags of groceries and instead its called "kinda sorta" all wishes of it being more representative of a realistic scenario are gone. There is also the fact that while the rules may be something to disagree with the rule makers have articulated sensible reasons for them. IDPA on the other hand...

Don't fret though, I also get upset when people call things that aren't chili by the name chili too.

TheTrevor
02-11-2014, 06:18 PM
When a person or organization starts shouting "don't say bad things" in defense of their sacred cow, and especially if they feel compelled to repeatedly say so... well, I've found this to be a highly reliable indicator of dysfunction.


Respectful suggestions to improve the sport are welcome....really.

Why the need to qualify it with "respectful"? Is some sort of genuflection or sacrifice required before OrigamiAK's point will be taken seriously by the powers that be?

Also... You keep using this word "welcome". I do not think it means what you think it means.

At least judging by a whole bunch of stuff I've read in the last few months regarding the IDPA rule-making sausage factory.

joshs
02-11-2014, 06:30 PM
If they'd just drop the "D" in their name . . .

They're probably just worried about being confused with a tasty beverage.

Jared
02-11-2014, 06:32 PM
I personally find this disheartening to say the very least. I started USPSA last year, and got to shoot about 7 local matches and a Level II before the clubs around me stopped for the winter. A Code of Conduct stating that competitors need to be reasonably well behaved causes me no heartburn whatsoever, and I hold myself to a very high standard when it comes to what I will and won't say while competing. That said, the notion that said printed code should prevent a paying participant from criticizing the sport or its rules, and then to toss the word perjury in there for good measure strikes me as going far, far beyond saying "be a good sport."

Worse, for me, is that I had been considering expanding my competitive shooting in 2014, and local IDPA matches were definitely on my radar. I was planning to join the IDPA, get classified, be an active competitor, just like I started doing with USPSA last year. This "Oath" and some of the other statements HQ has made, make me wonder if IDPA is an organization I wish to send membership dues to.

ST911
02-11-2014, 06:46 PM
МАОСП помещении Граждане Матч Участник Кодекс поведения

Я буду следовать всем правилам безопасности МАОСП и Смит & Вессон.

Я буду следовать все команды и указания Директором Матча , ответственных за технику безопасности , и любой официальный представитель Смит & Вессон.

Я прочитал и будет соблюдать правила в текущем МАОСП книги правил .

До и во время матча , я воздержусь от употребления алкоголя , веществ или препаратов , которые могут негативно повлиять на мою способность безопасно участвовать в матче или которые могут повлиять на безопасность других участников матча или прохожих .

Я не буду общаться с другими людьми в угроза, беспокойство или оскорбительным образом , и не будет участвовать в использовании вне цветовых замечания и шутки или ненормативной лексики в ходе моего участия в матче. Я не буду физически прикасаться к другому лицу, участвующему в мероприятии МАОСП без их согласия , если это не необходимо обратиться немедленно вопрос безопасности .

Я буду относиться ко всем участникам матча с уважением. Я не буду участвовать в каких-либо дискриминационных действий или поведения по отношению к другим по любой причине , в том числе , но не ограничиваясь , их классификации МАОСП , стрельба способности, расы, пола, религии, возраста, инвалидности или национального происхождения .

Я буду представлять свою спорта на высоком профессиональном уровне с помощью моего поведения и одежды , в соответствии с нормами, установленными Директором Матча и Смит & Вессон .

Я воздержусь от принижения или ненадлежащее критики МАОСП или других спортивной стрельбы , их должностных лиц , а также правил матч конкуренции.

Я всегда будучемпионом МАОСП и способствовать МАОСП в самом лучшем свете .

Я понимаю, что несоблюдение настоящего Кодекса поведения или любые другие команды или инструкции Директором Матча , ни ответственных за технику безопасности , или любой официальный представитель Смит & Вессон может привести к дисквалификации или исключения из участия в закрытых помещениях граждан МАОСП на усмотрению Смит & Вессон , а также может привести к аннулированию моего членства МАОСП .

Подписали под наказания и взыскания за лжесвидетельство ____ числа февраля 2014 года .

Подпись: __________________________________
Отпечатано имя: _______________________________
Свидетель : ___________________________________

Fixed.

Cannot find definition of perjury applicable to this...

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 06:59 PM
There is a significant difference. As members of the shooting community and industry, we should be supporting IDPA AND helping it to improve. Ridiculing it and trying to redefine it in negative terms in order to attack it only serves to hurt the organization. Respectful suggestions to improve the sport are welcome....really.

Hmm lots of us have offered IDPA suggestions on how to improve the game, and we've been told to pound sand. In fact my first post I offered a suggestion to fix this issue by quashing the MD's flashlight rule, and this code of conduct.

At this point I think pointing out the new flaws with IDPA (if you want to call that ridiculing) until it's membership drops is the only way to get IDPA HQ to listen. Now if they had elections and we had an actual say about changes to the game, it might be a different story. I say this as my NRA ballot sits beside my laptop, and there are threads on BE on who will run for USPSA President since Strader has announced that he won't run for reelection.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 07:29 PM
Truthfully? The Perjury statement is a damn joke. It's a pistol game, not a tax return or grand jury testimony.
Merrian Webster says there are two definitions for Perjury. One is a matter of law. The other is this: "the voluntary violation of an oath or vow either by swearing to what is untrue or by omission to do what has been promised under oath : false swearing"

They probably should have used a better word, but I have no issue because I will not violate the terms.
COdy

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 07:33 PM
I personally find this disheartening to say the very least. I started USPSA last year, and got to shoot about 7 local matches and a Level II before the clubs around me stopped for the winter. A Code of Conduct stating that competitors need to be reasonably well behaved causes me no heartburn whatsoever, and I hold myself to a very high standard when it comes to what I will and won't say while competing. That said, the notion that said printed code should prevent a paying participant from criticizing the sport or its rules, and then to toss the word perjury in there for good measure strikes me as going far, far beyond saying "be a good sport."

Worse, for me, is that I had been considering expanding my competitive shooting in 2014, and local IDPA matches were definitely on my radar. I was planning to join the IDPA, get classified, be an active competitor, just like I started doing with USPSA last year. This "Oath" and some of the other statements HQ has made, make me wonder if IDPA is an organization I wish to send membership dues to.
THIS is what I think is wrong....discouraging people from participating. Truth is that participating helps skill development, gun-handling, and provides some basic tactical skills, such as using cover and shooting on the move. How does this help the shooting community or the industry by discouraging people to participate?....HOW?
cody

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 07:35 PM
Merrian Webster says there are two definitions for Perjury. One is a matter of law. The other is this: "the voluntary violation of an oath or vow either by swearing to what is untrue or by omission to do what has been promised under oath : false swearing"

They probably should have used a better word, but I have no issue because I will not violate the terms.

Since they also used the "Pains and penalties" I am quite sure that they wanted to imply the criminal context of perjury.

If I were presented with something like this, I would probably sign in flounder like Kevin Brittingham. (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/foghorn/kevin-brittingham-post/)

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 07:37 PM
THIS is what I think is wrong....discouraging people from participating. Truth is that participating helps skill development, gun-handling, and provides some basic tactical skills, such as using cover and shooting on the move. How does this help the shooting community or the industry by discouraging people to participate?....HOW?

He is already shooting USPSA, so the only people that lose when he chooses USPSA over IDPA is IDPA and the IDPA club.

So are you saying that if we don't shoot IDPA we are hurting the industry, even though we are contributing thousands of dollars (my ammo bill alone for the Steel Nationals will be over a grand) when shooting other shooting sports?

m91196
02-11-2014, 07:38 PM
IDPA at S&W is different. It's an invitational and they have always had shenanigans about rules. Heck Caleb posted video during the match when that was illegal. That was the same year they ruled against HQ on the Grip Force Adapter during the match. So you see the match specific flashlight rules and the COC so they can throw out someone the night before the match at sign in for running his mouth about someone's daughter......

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 07:39 PM
Hmm lots of us have offered IDPA suggestions on how to improve the game, and we've been told to pound sand. In fact my first post I offered a suggestion to fix this issue by quashing the MD's flashlight rule, and this code of conduct.

At this point I think pointing out the new flaws with IDPA (if you want to call that ridiculing) until it's membership drops is the only way to get IDPA HQ to listen. Now if they had elections and we had an actual say about changes to the game, it might be a different story. I say this as my NRA ballot sits beside my laptop, and there are threads on BE on who will run for USPSA President since Strader has announced that he won't run for reelection.
Just because people have suggestions and provide feedback does not mean the IDPA should "hop to" and go and change those things per your schedule or my schedule. Change is difficult for organizations because they are composed of people. And if change means IDPA staff need to change themselves, well...we all know how hard it is to change ourselves. I have no problem pointing out things that need to be improved...I agree with some of them. But suggesting that IDPA rules were written by a drunken uncle, for instance, is just ridiculing without being constructive.

Speaking of that, maybe part of the answer is to look at your own views and consider changing them.
Cody

jetfire
02-11-2014, 07:41 PM
IDPA at S&W is different. It's an invitational and they have always had shenanigans about rules. Heck Caleb posted video during the match when that was illegal.

I had completely forgotten about the stink that raised. Too bad this year I'm shooting on Saturday.

cclaxton
02-11-2014, 07:41 PM
He is already shooting USPSA, so the only people that lose when he chooses USPSA over IDPA is IDPA and the IDPA club.

So are you saying that if we don't shoot IDPA we are hurting the industry, even though we are contributing thousands of dollars (my ammo bill alone for the Steel Nationals will be over a grand) when shooting other shooting sports?
No, I am saying that if YOU choose not to shoot IDPA for your own reasons....FINE. But don't go on the internet and try to discourage OTHERS from doing so.
Cody

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 07:49 PM
Just because people have suggestions and provide feedback does not mean the IDPA should "hop to" and go and change those things per your schedule or my schedule.

When all but the most strident IDPA defenders says that it is stupid, it probably is stupid. Take a look at this thread, normally the IDPA threads are about evenly divided between IDPA defenders and people that disagree. Take a look around, you are the only one defending this COC. And they were pretty damn quick on banning the humanoid vision barriers.


But suggesting that IDPA rules were written by a drunken uncle, for instance, is just ridiculing without being constructive.

Have you ever considering that they do look that way. I've mentioned this several times before that IDPA talks from both sides of it's mouth. When you point out that a rule isn't tactical, they claim it is a game and they that they don't want an equipment race. When you point out that it makes no sense from a game context, they claim that it is a tactical. IDPA is like the drunken Uncle. I really wish I thought of that first.


Speaking of that, maybe part of the answer is to look at your own views and consider changing them.

No, because I am right. :p

trailrunner
02-11-2014, 07:51 PM
THIS is what I think is wrong....discouraging people from participating. Truth is that participating helps skill development, gun-handling, and provides some basic tactical skills, such as using cover and shooting on the move. How does this help the shooting community or the industry by discouraging people to participate?....HOW?
cody

That was the point I was trying to make. I'm new to a lot of this, and if I keep up my practice, I was thinking of a competition in a year or two for the same benefits that you cite.

But making a competitor sign this kind of agreement -- under penalty of perjury, no less -- sets off all sorts of warning bells.

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 07:51 PM
No, I am saying that if YOU choose not to shoot IDPA for your own reasons....FINE. But don't go on the internet and try to discourage OTHERS from doing so.

I didn't create this COC. I didn't create this match specific flashlight rule.

I simply posted them here for all to see.

IDPA is the one discouraging people from shooting it by doing stupid stuff.

gtmtnbiker98
02-11-2014, 08:15 PM
Merrian Webster says there are two definitions for Perjury. One is a matter of law. The other is this: "the voluntary violation of an oath or vow either by swearing to what is untrue or by omission to do what has been promised under oath : false swearing"

They probably should have used a better word, but I have no issue because I will not violate the terms.
COdy
Pains and Penalties do not quite imply breaking a promise. Sorry, dude.

littlejerry
02-11-2014, 08:18 PM
No, I am saying that if YOU choose not to shoot IDPA for your own reasons....FINE. But don't go on the internet and try to discourage OTHERS from doing so.
Cody

Think of it as trying to encourage new shooters not to give up on the shooting sports.

Had my experience at my local IDPA club been my first and only exposure to shooting sports I may very well have written off the whole idea of competition shooting.

Yeah, it sucked that much. No, it isn't representative of all clubs. Yes, other people have had similar experiences.

TCinVA
02-11-2014, 08:42 PM
If I were running an important match I'd rather just assume the competitors will show up and conduct themselves reasonably, staying ready to take action against an exceptional douchenozzle should he rear his ugly head than to insult every participant at the match from the getgo by making them sign such a ridiculous bit of nonsense.

Ranges are typically private property. If someone acts up on private property (like during a match) you can eject them for doing so. The idea that an obstreperous jackass cannot be ejected unless somebody wrote a specific prohibition against the exact form of jackassery he performed is ridiculous. If someone acts up, you give them the boot.

Simple, really.

ToddG
02-11-2014, 08:44 PM
No, I am saying that if YOU choose not to shoot IDPA for your own reasons....FINE. But don't go on the internet and try to discourage OTHERS from doing so.

Expressing dislike of rules or policies of a game is perfectly normal and acceptable. If the game or its participants are so damaged by the criticism then perhaps that's a sign the criticism is particularly valid.

No one here has a responsibility to defend, support, promote, or like IDPA. It's inappropriate to tell others that they should keep their opinions to themselves.

Force Majeure
02-11-2014, 09:35 PM
Truthfully? The Perjury statement is a damn joke. It's a pistol game, not a tax return or grand jury testimony.

Perjury is a legal term of art. I don't thing that outside a Court of Law, the phrase has any context or meaning, certainly not a match document.

jetfire
02-11-2014, 09:36 PM
To support Todd's point: my company is a sponsor of IDPA Nationals. Yet I was one of the first people to call attention to the people shaped "vision barriers" in the last IDPA Nationals. The flashlight rules don't really bother me. The S&W Code of Conduct stuff absolutely does.

If they needed a code of conduct for the match, why not just reprint the one in the IDPA Rulebook? It's pretty reasonable, and doesn't have the silly language about "always promote IDPA in a positive light." I genuinely believe that IDPA is one of the best organizations in the shooting sports because it's well positioned for new CCW permit holders. It's also generally well run at the administrative level, which is why stuff like the S&W Code of Conduct is so baffling to me. I wasn't aware that a bunch of people running around with guns needed to be told to not go around inappropriately touching people.

Force Majeure
02-11-2014, 09:41 PM
I will not communicate with others in a threatening, harassing or abusive manner, and will not engage in the use of off-color remarks and jokes or profanity during the course of my participation in the match. I will not physically touch another person participating in an IDPA event without their consent unless it is necessary to address an immediate safety issue.

In other words, we agree to abide by the enlightened curse words of or noble Norman masters instead of using the low-class Germanic guttersnipe swearings of the miserable Anglo-Saxon dogs!

1066!!!

PPGMD
02-11-2014, 09:49 PM
The flashlight rules don't really bother me.

For me it is not so much about the rule (as I agree with them that these sights aren't practical), but the fact that the MD unilaterally banned something using the FTDR. The reason why we have a rule book is so matches follow the same rules, but allow MDs to unilaterally create non-safety rules is very bad precedent, no matter how much I agree with the rule.

If the MD feels so strongly that charging your sights should be banned they should take that up with IDPA HQ.

abu fitna
02-11-2014, 09:52 PM
Had my experience at my local IDPA club been my first and only exposure to shooting sports I may very well have written off the whole idea of competition shooting.

Unfortunately, this is definitely an area where I can comment on "similar experiences". I know of one relatively new shooter in terms of participation in competitive events, and has come out for quite a few different matches and game types in the past several years including IDPA and 3 Gun, among others. She is quite sensitive to issues of tone at a match. One particular local IDPA match is held at a fairly well known facility whose overall membership is not too fond of action pistol events of any kind, and definitely not fond of outsiders that aren't facility members. (They fairly well embody the definition of Fudd to all observable behaviors.) The manner in which the MDs at this match treated her, and other experienced shooters that came out to the match, was enough to make her declare that she simply was not going to shoot there again after the second time attending that facility (everyone gets a second chance in case of a bad day). Contrast this to another match, quite a bit further away in terms of a local drive (and across a state line), where the MD behaved quite differently - and as a result she will even come out to a match when otherwise tired, sick, or in inclement weather. (Not a common thing for most female shooters who consider this a purely recreational activity, in my experience, but others' mileage may vary.)

Tone matters. The incoherency of the rules issues highlighted by critics of IDPA are a part of that tone. The common thread across those criticisms is that otherwise completely safe, acceptable, and common CCW equipment and behaviors are prohibited out of what increasingly appears to be the personal preferences of a few individuals in the association. The lack of real response to discussions around the new rulebook, and the process by which that rulebook was produced, compounded concerns that criticism (or any other feedback less than absolute agreement) was simply not going to be considered. Essentially, all of these things deny the adults who choose to participate their actual role as independent parties in a voluntary association of common interest. Rather, they seek to subjugate individual choices to a defined hierarchy. This is not going to be popular with the kinds of personalities that tend to embrace individual performance in the shooting sports, and in RKBA.

A certain degree of independence of choice is something that folks are willing to give up to have a level playing field for competition. But these must be seen to be rational restrictions, and in decisions made fairly across those participating. They must also be tied to the reasoning of the competition in the first place - which is why the inconsistencies in the selective application of the dual "gamer" versus "street" logic are spark such vehement comment.

This madness of loyalty oaths and perjury threats is definitely far over the line in any of these considerations. A certain degree of restriction, such as admonishment to avoid profanity to ensure a family atmosphere, is understandable and is something that even the most independent minded participant would likely choose to accept. A prohibition on criticism reeks of insecurity and the kind of totalitarian impulse that raises almost anyones' hackles. Coupled with baseless legalese, and one begins to see a reflection of the kinds of abuse heaped on gun owners in the Northeast. One should not abuse our own simply because one has long been kicked, and certainly this sort of shoot house lawyering appears to be wearing a certain kind of boot.

There is good reason for the proliferation of outlaw matches, or competitors choosing to shoot without (formal) score. It would do well for IDPA at multiple levels to consider why these impulses are increasingly popular.

GJM
02-11-2014, 10:09 PM
They're probably just worried about being confused with a tasty beverage.

Josh wins the interwebZ for the day!

Away from the computer all day hiking, shooting and otherwise gainfully engaged, look what blew up in my absence -- colossal waste of time.

Maybe PF needs similar rules. :)

jetfire
02-11-2014, 10:16 PM
If the MD feels so strongly that charging your sights should be banned they should take that up with IDPA HQ.

To be fair to the MD, Mike says they've contacted HQ for a ruling on charging sites and nothing's come out yet. Lacking an official ruling from HQ, it's traditional for MD's to make temporary policy. As long as the policy is fairly enforced to all shooters, I can live with it.

Like I've said, my beef is more with being told that I can't say naughty words because someone's feeweings might get hurt; or having to be reminded to not touch people without their consent. I've been to a lot of IDPA matches, and I wasn't aware of this epidemic of non-consensual touching while telling dead baby jokes.

ToddG
02-11-2014, 10:29 PM
As long as the policy is fairly enforced to all shooters, I can live with it.
.

Your night sights are practical and OK but his aren't... that doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Then again, I once was the victim of the "catch your ejected round, get an FTDR" arbitrary local rule at the Indoor Nationals. And then there was the year I got DQ'd because my gun wouldn't fit in the box with the lid closed... even though we measured the box and proved it was too small in all three dimensions.

Force Majeure
02-11-2014, 11:07 PM
Arbitrary and Capricious.

jetfire
02-11-2014, 11:09 PM
Your night sights are practical and OK but his aren't... that doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Then again, I once was the victim of the "catch your ejected round, get an FTDR" arbitrary local rule at the Indoor Nationals. And then there was the year I got DQ'd because my gun wouldn't fit in the box with the lid closed... even though we measured the box and proved it was too small in all three dimensions.

Those are fair criticisms. I can say that in my experience shooting IDPA Nats, the rules have been enforced fairly. I can't speak to past matches, although I've heard of shady dealings.

JAD
02-11-2014, 11:50 PM
My experience with IDPA between 1996 and 2001 was largely positive. I did some stuff on the national level and really enjoyed some of the people I associated with. I can't think that any of them wouldn't have rage quit over the vision barrier deal, or this code of conduct. So, I assume that most of the people I liked in IDPA, and people like them, are gone, so I wouldn't mess with it if I had the time.

I messed with uspsa (less, and only at two local clubs) in the same timeframe. Between club matches then and meeting a lot of them in the early IDPA context, some serious uspsa shooters come of as douchnozzles often enough to make that look like no fun either.

I get that some people like competition, and that's fine, but i personally got a lot more of what I think is the same good shooting in 'festival' and training group environments. If I find myself with time I will pursue that sort of thing instead, I think.

MGW
02-12-2014, 10:07 AM
I've been a golf coach for 15 years. The IDPA code of conduct and rules book all sounds pretty mild compared to what I'm used to. The difference is I only have to deal with two governing bodies and neither one of them are sponsored by a major manufacture.

John Ralston
02-12-2014, 11:35 AM
Your night sights are practical and OK but his aren't... that doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Then again, I once was the victim of the "catch your ejected round, get an FTDR" arbitrary local rule at the Indoor Nationals. And then there was the year I got DQ'd because my gun wouldn't fit in the box with the lid closed... even though we measured the box and proved it was too small in all three dimensions.

Todd...need I remind you...you are supposed to be a "Champion of IDPA". I'm not feeling it from you.

orionz06
02-12-2014, 11:42 AM
Todd...need I remind you...you are supposed to be a "Champion of IDPA". I'm not feeling it from you.

Are there enough posters here to have a quorum and maybe a trial?

Kyle Reese
02-12-2014, 11:43 AM
Todd...need I remind you...you are supposed to be a "Champion of IDPA". I'm not feeling it from you.

O great IDPA, O shooting sport of the peoples,
Thou who broughtest man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendour of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts.

(H/T Yevgeny Yevtushenko, Soviet poet)

ToddG
02-12-2014, 11:46 AM
I'm not a champion of IDPA in any sense whatsoever. I do happen to be a proponent of the sport in general even though I can't personally shoot it with my normal carry gear. I understand completely that games have rules and some of them might not be what I want. I don't begrudge IDPA any of that. ICORE won't let me shoot my carry gear, either, and I'm not going to piss and moan about it. Wrong game for my gear is my issue, not the game's.

But swearing an oath of fealty to a match is just idiocy. And I bet the guys who came up with the idea are the same ones who spread "Obama forces military to swear oath to him, not country" BS in outrage.

Tamara
02-12-2014, 11:58 AM
IDPA (and other shooting sports for that matter) are predominantly male and white, with many coming from LE and Military and sometimes think we can behave like we are in a football locker room (although even football locker rooms are falling under the "profanity free zone" in some places). Women are more commonly in squads and working as SO's, minorities are increasingly participating...

This is the most unintentionally hilariously ironic thing I have read today, and I've been at the internet for hours.

It's okay, I promise you I won't turn into a cloud of pink dust if I accidentally overhear a few of your powerful White Man words. :rolleyes:

PPGMD
02-12-2014, 12:05 PM
ICORE won't let me shoot my carry gear, either, and I'm not going to piss and moan about it.

I am sure that with a little JB Weld we can add a cylinder to your P229R.


But swearing an oath of fealty to a match is just idiocy.

I swear some of you are a lot better with the English language than I am. 'Drunken Uncle' and 'Oath of fealty' I don't think I would've thought to use either of those phrases in this context.

gtmtnbiker98
02-12-2014, 12:46 PM
Are there enough posters here to have a quorum and maybe a trial?
We can't. We have yet to define perjury!

gtmtnbiker98
02-12-2014, 12:50 PM
I swear some of you are a lot better with the English language than I am. 'Drunken Uncle' and 'Oath of fealty' I don't think I would've thought to use either of those phrases in this context.Don't feel bad, dude. I rode the short bus.

TCinVA
02-12-2014, 01:22 PM
We can't. We have yet to define perjury!

This is like the beginning of a Monty Python sketch.

"I sentence you to be burned at the stake!"

"Blimey! I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!"

hufnagel
02-12-2014, 01:53 PM
I just want to hang out with some like-minded gun owners, shoot at (and hopefully hit) some targets, tell the occasional off-color joke, laugh, learn some things, have a good time and of course be safe. Can't we all just get along? :cool:

(wait... can I still say 'off-COLOR'... or is that now considered racist.)

Force Majeure
02-12-2014, 02:54 PM
Perjury is to lie under oath in front of a Legal Tribunal commissioned by the State, like a sanctioned Court of Law.

Unless IDPA is sanctioned by the state, it might be easier to flap my wings and fly than commit Perjury at one of their Matches, no matter how badly I choose to lie and spread falsehoods.

1slow
02-12-2014, 03:55 PM
International Delusions (of grandeur) Pistol Association.
If you are going to have loyalty it has to flow both ways. Leadership must represent members fairly if they are to demand members support. But wait, some are more equal than others.
Oath of fealty, killed what interest I had. I would rather spend money on training etc....

Jared
02-12-2014, 06:12 PM
He is already shooting USPSA, so the only people that lose when he chooses USPSA over IDPA is IDPA and the IDPA club.

So are you saying that if we don't shoot IDPA we are hurting the industry, even though we are contributing thousands of dollars (my ammo bill alone for the Steel Nationals will be over a grand) when shooting other shooting sports?

I thought about this a bit. The losers if I stay USPSA-only are IDPA, the local IDPA club, and some firearm and gear makers. For me, no IDPA means not buying a vest. It also means not buying a 625 for ESR, a suitable SSR gun, the speedloaders and moonclips, pouches and holsters to go with. Same goes for CDP, as I was eyeing the G41 for that role. The thing is, if I decide to start shooting IDPA, classifying as a 5 gun master would be one of my LONG term goals. To do that, I would need the proper gear to do it, but it's gear that I wouldn't otherwise buy (in the case of SSR, ESR, and CDP).

There's 3 USPSA clubs within a 2.5 hour drive from me. They all hold their matches on different days. The IDPA club I had in mind is at the same range as the closest USPSA club, which would be very convenient, but I'm still so taken aback by this "oath" that I just do not know if I'm gonna be able to get past it.

Jared
02-12-2014, 06:20 PM
I just want to hang out with some like-minded gun owners, shoot at (and hopefully hit) some targets, tell the occasional off-color joke, laugh, learn some things, have a good time and of course be safe. Can't we all just get along? :cool:

(wait... can I still say 'off-COLOR'... or is that now considered racist.)

At the local matches I have been to, that is very doable. I have seen the occasional shooter that was a downer (actually 2, they were brothers) but it was a one match problem. I've twice gone to clubs where I knew absolutely no one. After I'd shot a couple stages, and the other guys on the squad (who mostly knew each other) saw that I was a safe responsible shooter, they opened right up and we had a great time of it.

I remember one match in particular, the guy who was RO'ing most of the time just couldn't get over my Beretta. He'd never seen anyone shoot one in a match before and thought that was just about the coolest thing ever. We chatted from stage 2 on about all kinds of shooting stuff and had a blast. They had some of the most awesome stages I had ever seen at that match too. I remember on the way home thinking that even though it was almost two and a half hours to drive up there, it was WELL worth it.

LSP972
02-12-2014, 07:04 PM
Interesting thread.

One of the local USPSA clubs around here holds an "outlaw" (i.e., non-sanctioned) IDPA-type monthly match. I suspect it is little more than an effort to get themselves more match trigger time in a slightly different venue… but what it has become is an excellent place for a newbie CCW person to try out his carry gear under a bit of duress. I go two or three times a year just to keep myself from getting stale.

It is a great event. They use stages from the IDPA playbook, and mainly follow the IDPA rules, but are lax about some things… such as concealment. Most folks make at least a token effort at concealing their gear, even the hardcore gamer guys. But if your set-up doesn't quite meet IDPA "standards"… they don't care.

However, don't get the impression that it is a loosely-run deal. The folks in charge are all seasoned USPSA shooters, and are hard-line on safety. Other than that, all they want is for you to enjoy yourself.

My point here is, I had toyed with the idea of perhaps going to a few sanctioned IDPA matches… until I spoke with a few friends who did, and was advised that the term "nazi", as applied to the people running that IDPA club/chapter/whatever, was a bit tame. IOW, if a newbie didn't have what they considered the "right" gear (even though it conformed to the rules), he was looked down upon and treated accordingly.

One of these friends in particular had an amusing anecdote. Now, this is a fellow who has been carrying concealed, professionally, for over two decades; and has been in many a tight spot, both in undercover and regular plainclothes capacities. He related how one of the ROs at this club was not satisfied with my friend's techniques and proceeded to lecture him on the proper way to carry his piece, deploy same, etc. My pal held his tongue, and later did a bit of checking up on said RO. He told me, "It was rather funny to be lectured on our tradecraft by a guy who runs a hardware store. Stay away, those guys will just piss you off."

I will echo the sentiment of others here… reasonable rules are fine, and necessary. A "loyalty oath" is WAY over the top, and indicative of delusional thinking. It just reinforces many of the negative things, stated by people who wished it was better (i.e., NOT malcontents just looking to complain), that I've read and been told over the years regarding IDPA.

FWIW, I have no dog in this hunt. Just offering observations from an outsider, who chooses to remain so.

.

Tamara
02-12-2014, 11:46 PM
*redacted.*

Kevin B.
02-13-2014, 01:02 AM
One of these friends in particular had an amusing anecdote. Now, this is a fellow who has been carrying concealed, professionally, for over two decades; and has been in many a tight spot, both in undercover and regular plainclothes capacities. He related how one of the ROs at this club was not satisfied with my friend's techniques and proceeded to lecture him on the proper way to carry his piece, deploy same, etc. My pal held his tongue, and later did a bit of checking up on said RO. He told me, "It was rather funny to be lectured on our tradecraft by a guy who runs a hardware store. Stay away, those guys will just piss you off."

I had similar experience at my first/last IDPA match.

GardoneVT
02-13-2014, 01:12 AM
Perhaps I'm just the FNG unaware of how ignorant this question is, but what's the point of a competition league trying to simulate something which cannot be simulated? I get that IDPA is structured in terms of intent to reflect real world defensive tactics, but that's a bit like NASCAR holding a race in North Dakota to ' simulate winter defensive driving'.

I'd think , logically, everyone would be better served if IDPA were structured as just " Bring your guns and Go Have fun " league. Lets dispense with the 'defensive' pretense ,as -in my opinion- a competition league of shooters packing guns like they do in real life would mean a lot of .380 mouseguns, purse and pocket holsters, and tired EMTs due to the inevitable NDs.

ToddG
02-13-2014, 01:25 AM
Perhaps I'm just the FNG unaware of how ignorant this question is, but what's the point of a competition league trying to simulate something which cannot be simulated?

Why practice at all if you can't simulate what you really need to do?

Having shot a reasonable bit of USPSA and a ton of IDPA, IDPA COFs are far more representative of the skills real people are called upon to use in real life violent encounters. That makes the game more relevant and more approachable than huge USPSA field courses, memory stages, 25yd partial targets, etc.

LSP972
02-13-2014, 06:30 AM
IDPA COFs are far more representative of the skills real people are called upon to use in real life violent encounters. That makes the game more relevant and more approachable than huge USPSA field courses, memory stages, 25yd partial targets, etc.

Agreed. Most USPSA matches I have been to are more of a track meet with guns, classifiers being the exception. Barging willy-nilly into the kill zone of multiple targets and engaging same, flat-footed and stationary, is not exactly the way to survive a similar real encounter.

Still, its all about perspective. Both venues give one a good idea of how your gear is going to perform for you under stress, and how YOU are going to drive said gear; IDPA is a bit more realistic about it, IMO. That venue addresses the concept of using cover, and the fact that very few folks; including the po-lice; walk around with 50+ rounds of ammunition on their person. Too bad that "they" seem to have gotten a bit carried away with the rules of their game.

USPSA gives you a problem, and pretty much leaves you to your own devices on how to solve it. If you want to win, you gallop. If you want to be "tactical", you can do that. IDPA, OTOH, has some tricks and traps. The first time I heard of the dreaded "Failure To Do Right", I was… huh?????

Whatever. Its all good, eh?:D

.

Urban_Redneck
02-13-2014, 09:56 AM
I began shooting IDPA Spring 2013.

Pretense of the "national" has been non-existent at the 5 local clubs I have shot at, everyone has been either friendly or at least, not bothersome. The one, large(200 shooters), heavily promoted match I attended, was generally staffed by pretentious nit-wits who seemed to be sincerely trying to impress someone other than the paying participants.

I'm going to renew my membership and give IDPA another go this year. Though I have a sinking feeling that IDPA will be relegated to same status as the restaurant with the killer view and lousy food, I'll meet my friends, have a drink, and decide where to go for dinner.

orionz06
02-13-2014, 07:03 PM
Agreed. Most USPSA matches I have been to are more of a track meet with guns, classifiers being the exception. Barging willy-nilly into the kill zone of multiple targets and engaging same, flat-footed and stationary, is not exactly the way to survive a similar real encounter.

Still, its all about perspective. Both venues give one a good idea of how your gear is going to perform for you under stress, and how YOU are going to drive said gear; IDPA is a bit more realistic about it, IMO. That venue addresses the concept of using cover, and the fact that very few folks; including the po-lice; walk around with 50+ rounds of ammunition on their person. Too bad that "they" seem to have gotten a bit carried away with the rules of their game.

USPSA gives you a problem, and pretty much leaves you to your own devices on how to solve it. If you want to win, you gallop. If you want to be "tactical", you can do that. IDPA, OTOH, has some tricks and traps. The first time I heard of the dreaded "Failure To Do Right", I was… huh?????

Whatever. Its all good, eh?:D

.


Next step for IDPA is what we are seeing in kids sports, not keeping score.

ToddG
02-13-2014, 07:05 PM
Next step for IDPA is what we are seeing in kids sports, not keeping score.

That's called the NTI. :cool:

jetfire
02-13-2014, 10:14 PM
That's called the NTI. :cool:

Critical hit!

Guinnessman
02-15-2014, 06:21 PM
Next step for IDPA is what we are seeing in kids sports, not keeping score.

And we all get a trophy!!!

Casual Friday
02-15-2014, 09:08 PM
I'm starting a new action pistol sport. It's called G.A.S which is short for Guns and Swearing. Every stage will involve a set amount of swear words per target, with an occasional dirty joke thrown in at random. Not laughing at the dirty jokes while shooting is a FTDR penalty, and will result in a 37 minute penalty.

AIWB and shoulder holsters are strongly recommended.

MDS
02-16-2014, 11:03 AM
I'm starting a new action pistol sport. It's called G.A.S which is short for Guns and Swearing. Every stage will involve a set amount of swear words per target, with an occasional dirty joke thrown in at random. Not laughing at the dirty jokes while shooting is a FTDR penalty, and will result in a 37 minute penalty.

AIWB and shoulder holsters are strongly recommended.

Nice. I think this would blend nicely with RAPS.

TheRoland
02-17-2014, 07:49 PM
IDPA has now released a "clarification" that night-sights may be recharged only after the buzzer. Presumably using overhead lights or the sun is still legal while waiting. IDPA is apparently quite happy to use "clarifications" to make up whatever completely new rules S&W feels like they want.

Is it inappropriate criticism to point out they've used odd phraseology to do it, too?


Q:Please clarify if a flashlight can be used prior to shooting to recharge night sites.

Answer: Yes, the shooter’s flashlight may be used to recharge night sights any time after the buzzer/start of
the stage, but not prior.

They've also explicitly allowed the lightening cuts on the recent batch of S&W 1911s in SSP/ESP/CDP which resemble porting. To my knowledge, is somewhat of a reversal, but maybe this is a different discussion.

ToddG
02-17-2014, 07:59 PM
IDPA: disappoint!

So I spend half the thread arguing that their flashlight rules are designed to be an extreme attempt to prevent equipment race, and now you either pay to put night sights on what (for most shooters) is a dedicated range/comp gun or you are at a severe disadvantage.

Tamara
02-17-2014, 08:07 PM
IDPA has now released a "clarification" that night-sights may be recharged only after the buzzer.

That's just frickin' gratuitous.

PPGMD
02-17-2014, 08:12 PM
IDPA: disappoint!

So I spend half the thread arguing that their flashlight rules are designed to be an extreme attempt to prevent equipment race, and now you either pay to put night sights on what (for most shooters) is a dedicated range/comp gun or you are at a severe disadvantage.

If I shot IDPA, and was one of those that got an invite to the IDPA nationals, I would probably have a dedicated low light competition gun (knowing me it would probably be a pair). It would probably have Trijicon HDs or whatever night sight system I thought was best for indoor low light matches.

I know when I shot evening USPSA matches, in the winter I shot a Sig with night sights rather than my other one with fiber optics.

ToddG
02-17-2014, 08:14 PM
Your solution, having an entirely different gun, while perfectly logical still makes it rather difficult to argue that these rules are in support of keeping cost-to-play low and avoiding equipment races. Seriously, this "can't charge your sights at load & ready" rule is beyond the pale.

PPGMD
02-17-2014, 08:21 PM
Your solution, having an entirely different gun, while perfectly logical still makes it rather difficult to argue that these rules are in support of keeping cost-to-play low and avoiding equipment races. Seriously, this "can't charge your sights at load & ready" rule is beyond the pale.

Exactly serious competitors will have dedicated equipment for these type of matches.

JAD
02-17-2014, 08:21 PM
Couldn't agree less. I can't conceive of a real life scenario wherein I'd charge my lights before solving whatever problem caused me to get my gun out (and if I did, I'd certainly be 'on the clock'). Therefore they're competition-only equipment, therefore not remotely in the spirit of the game.

ToddG
02-17-2014, 08:26 PM
Couldn't agree less. I can't conceive of a real life scenario wherein I'd charge my lights before solving whatever problem caused me to get my gun out (and if I did, I'd certainly be 'on the clock'). Therefore they're competition-only equipment, therefore not remotely in the spirit of the game.

Point missed, my friend. I totally agree that they're inappropriate sights for combat. So are most of the sights competitors use at matches IMHO. So now, knowing there's going to be a low light match, you can either use your normal sights with some spray-on or brush-on superluminova for the low light stuff, or you can go out and buy (increasing expense, increasing equipment race) new sights just to remain competitive. But if you do the former, you're at a huge disadvantage.

No matter how you parse it, this rule REQUIRES you to have night sights on your gun. There are plenty of excellent instructors with tactical backgrounds who don't even run night sights on their EDC pistols. So it's not about spirit of the game. It's about the match organizers and IDPA dictating what they think a gun should be.

Do not like. Very disappointed.

PPGMD
02-17-2014, 08:29 PM
It's about the match organizers and IDPA dictating what they think a gun should be.

I came to that conclusion after the new rule book.

IDPA isn't about what is best for defensive shooting, it is about what IDPA feel is best for defensive shooting.

JAD
02-17-2014, 08:30 PM
I could give a crap about IDPA. But if you show up at my festival and try to charge your sights, listen for a beep.

ToddG
02-17-2014, 08:37 PM
I could give a crap about IDPA. But if you show up at my festival and try to charge your sights, listen for a beep.

Dude, your house your rules, I am 100% with that as long as folks know in advance.

This rule clarification came out the week the match happens if I'm understanding correctly. That's pretty short notice that you need new sights on your gun.

gtmtnbiker98
02-17-2014, 08:43 PM
Dude, your house your rules, I am 100% with that as long as folks know in advance.

This rule clarification came out the week the match happens if I'm understanding correctly. That's pretty short notice that you need new sights on your gun.
Might be that I raised the issue with key people? I feel that some of the rules greatly impacted stock HK sights and favored the venues particular line of products.

m91196
02-17-2014, 09:22 PM
10 pages of clarification 4 months after the scripture came down from Mt. Wilson 12 hours before staff shoots their second most "prestigious" event. Don't even look at the slide cuts that they made legal so their biggest sponsors guns could show up in uncle miles holsters all across Merica. They need some luminescence alright.....

PPGMD
02-17-2014, 09:32 PM
So I went to their website. Absolutely nothing on this. Nothing on Facespace. Nothing.

Their blog, Facespace, and everything else is just a list of the sponsors of the Indoor Nationals.

Sucking sponsor dollars seems to be the only thing that IDPA cares about.

I mean they don't even have a link to the previous rules clarification on the rules page. At least the USPSA puts the documents, or links to the NORI rulings all on one page.

ST911
02-17-2014, 09:40 PM
Can someone explain why the charging-NS thing is a big deal, to those of us on the outside looking in? Genuine interest.

What brands are affected, to what extent? Number of shooters impacted? Competitive advantage/disadvantage created?

Maple Syrup Actual
02-17-2014, 10:00 PM
There are plenty of excellent instructors with tactical backgrounds who don't even run night sights on their EDC pistols.

Presumably because they feel adequately equipped without them?

If so, why are they wanting night sights to shoot the stage?

I agree that IDPA has ridiculous issues with trying to decide whether it's defensive simulations or a game. But this seems to fit one of those two categories perfectly.

orionz06
02-17-2014, 10:06 PM
Dude, your house your rules, I am 100% with that as long as folks know in advance.

This rule clarification came out the week the match happens if I'm understanding correctly. That's pretty short notice that you need new sights on your gun.

Not only is it an equipment race it's a drag race that started without some even knowing.

Mr_White
02-17-2014, 10:13 PM
Unless everyone uses the exact same gear, then everything is an equipment race.

orionz06
02-17-2014, 10:24 PM
Unless everyone uses the exact same gear, then everything is an equipment race.

Shhhhh!

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 12:11 AM
I saw this post on Doodie:
http://imageshack.com/a/img38/8394/3f0o.png

And then there is the fact that the stages aren't posted two weeks ahead of time per the rulebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2211818877/permalink/10152013242548878/

TheRoland
02-18-2014, 02:43 AM
Can someone explain why the charging-NS thing is a big deal, to those of us on the outside looking in? Genuine interest.

What brands are affected, to what extent? Number of shooters impacted? Competitive advantage/disadvantage created?
Personally, I'm just annoyed that with all the simmering issues with the IDPA rules, they use "clarifications" to create new rules for Smith while they aren't even following the existing ones consistently. The actual rule itself may be fine.

TheTrevor
02-18-2014, 03:37 AM
Personally, I'm just annoyed that with all the simmering issues with the IDPA rules, they use "clarifications" to create new rules for Smith while they aren't even following the existing ones consistently. The actual rule itself may be fine.

Honey badger don't listen.
Honey badger doesn't give a kitten.
Honey badger does what it wants.
Honey badger gonna get some of that sweet, sweet major-sponsor nectar.

cclaxton
02-18-2014, 10:05 AM
Unless everyone uses the exact same gear, then everything is an equipment race.
IDPA intends that competitors should come to the match with guns that are generally available to the average shooter, and in particular, to new shooters. There is a huge difference between a $600 Glock and a $3500 Open Gun. The cost of entry is a big factor for the average shooter. Everyone here knows that mental discipline is the number one factor in competition, followed by skill and then equipment. People adapt to different guns for a variety of reasons including hand size, hand physiology, grip feel, caliber, personal preference, etc. It is impractical to create a game where everyone uses the same equipment (although the World Championship provides all the guns and ammo so that everyone shoots the same guns). And, it is a great learning experience for shooters to learn the strengths and weaknesses of their equipment as they shoot matches. IDPA has attempted to restrict equipment to keep out the open guns and long barreled pistols and really expensive ones because of the practical nature of the sport. You don't see guys concealing an open gun in a race holster, for instance.

Can some people afford more expensive versions of production/SSP guns or to make expensive mods?...Sure, but that is not the same as compared to open equipment. BTW, nowhere in the rulebook does IDPA refer to an equipment race. It simply limits equipment and justifies it by stating that equipment must be practical for concealed carry.
Cody

orionz06
02-18-2014, 10:22 AM
I have a hard time with that knowing that IDPA players can and do sink loads of cash into C-Zed's to take them to the brink of the rules and compete with an almost-open rig anyway.


All while eliminating many practical carry guns anyway.

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 10:38 AM
Personally, I'm just annoyed that with all the simmering issues with the IDPA rules, they use "clarifications" to create new rules for Smith while they aren't even following the existing ones consistently. The actual rule itself may be fine.

On top of that. They ban porting unless it comes from the factory like that, but they don't consider custom shops to be a factory, unless the custom shop is owned by S&W.

The PC 1911s with their porting are probably the only 1911 with legal porting in IDPA.

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 10:47 AM
There is a huge difference between a $600 Glock and a $3500 Open Gun.

There is also a huge difference between a $600 Glock and a $3,500 custom ESP or CDP gun.

Just like USPSA, IDPA has race guns. They only difference is the exact configuration on the gun. In fact IDPA's ESP is a lot like IPSC's standard division except no slide porting.

In fact I know more than one person that built a common ESP/Limited Race Gun. It would be chambered in .40S&W, but would have a smaller mag well, and no slide porting. When they shot USPSA they used 140mm magazines, and loaded to major PF, when they shot IDPA they would use non-extended magazines and download to minor (with a spring change of course).

JeffJ
02-18-2014, 10:52 AM
I have a hard time with that knowing that IDPA players can and do sink loads of cash into C-Zed's to take them to the brink of the rules and compete with an almost-open rig anyway.


All while eliminating many practical carry guns anyway.

Dude. Really? A slicked out CZ is awesome for a production gun, and I'm carrying one on my hip right now. But, an open gun? Really? You don't even see Zed in Limited, the only place that the CZ really rules is minor scoring with the hammer down first shot. Once you get away from that it quickly gets eclipsed by the 2011s.

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 11:03 AM
Dude. Really? A slicked out CZ is awesome for a production gun, and I'm carrying one on my hip right now. But, an open gun? Really? You don't even see Zed in Limited, the only place that the CZ really rules is minor scoring with the hammer down first shot. Once you get away from that it quickly gets eclipsed by the 2011s.

I don't think he is saying that they are turning the CZs into open guns. But simply that they are so far from stock, they might as well be using an open race gun. The only difference is that since CZ is a European company that has embraced IPSC (with their tighter production rules) they are used to adding production division race guns to their catalog.

TheRoland
02-18-2014, 11:32 AM
On top of that. They ban porting unless it comes from the factory like that, but they don't consider custom shops to be a factory, unless the custom shop is owned by S&W.

The PC 1911s with their porting are probably the only 1911 with legal porting in IDPA.

Under the "clarification" it sounds like a reasonable number of Limited-style 2011s with lightening cuts are now in. Brazos has surely shipped 2000 units and continues production. Not going to be surprised when the next "clarification" rules a manufacturer must own a forge or a plant of a given size to qualify under this rule.

I actually think this is probably the right ruling (to be consistent with Glock slides), but its just painfully clear that he who pays the piper calls the tune.

LSP972
02-18-2014, 11:58 AM
This thread has been a fascinating read on how shooting games have morphed into a gear-fest/rules extravaganza.

When I began IPSC-type shooting in the 70s, it was basically "run what you brung"... which, I believe, is what Cooper and the other founders originally intended.

Like in many other parts of the country, those of us in the south who were shooting non-sanctioned "matches" back then really didn't have any rules to speak of (besides safety, of course). Whoever was putting the event on drew up the courses of fire and specified the parameters of each stage... sometimes we even used the IPSC "course" book. I remember once when Jimmy Gregory was struggling with the set-up of The Flying M...

But I digress. The important thing was that nobody pissed and moaned about this shooter having an advantage with his hi-cap P-35, or that shooter was using a Gold Cup with better sights, etc. Such things were understood. I generally used my uniform duty rig; S&W M-66 with a double speedloader pouch and a pocket full of Safariland Comp IIs. I knew I was "handicapped" shooting against the bottom feeders. I never won anything; but I never placed last, either.

The whole idea was to have fun and maybe get a little better. We seem to have lost that notion.

As the competition aspect of the game heated up over the years, the "equipment race" really began to tell. But that is not what turned me off from staying in the game. I shot a match one time where one stage was particularly challenging, involving partially-obscured targets and some off-hand-only shooting. I did not crawl through it, but shot carefully and got all "A" hits. One guy on my squad burned through it, shot at least five more rounds than were called for, had TWO "mikes" and several "D" hits... yet his final score on the stage was higher than mine because he did it a lot faster.

That is utter BS, as far as I'm concerned. Now, I've had several competitor types attempt to 'splain (justify?) how this can be. None of it made sense to me.

Anyway... so much for ancient history. This discussion is quite entertaining. Please continue.

.

NETim
02-18-2014, 12:05 PM
This thread has been a fascinating read on how shooting games have morphed into a gear-fest/rules extravaganza.

When I began IPSC-type shooting in the 70s, it was basically "run what you brung"... which, I believe, is what Cooper and the other founders originally intended.

Like in many other parts of the country, those of us in the south who were shooting non-sanctioned "matches" back then really didn't have any rules to speak of (besides safety, of course). Whoever was putting the event on drew up the courses of fire and specified the parameters of each stage... sometimes we even used the IPSC "course" book. I remember once when Jimmy Gregory was struggling with the set-up of The Flying M...

But I digress. The important thing was that nobody pissed and moaned about this shooter having an advantage with his hi-cap P-35, or that shooter was using a Gold Cup with better sights, etc. Such things were understood. I generally used my uniform duty rig; S&W M-66 with a double speedloader pouch and a pocket full of Safariland Comp IIs. I knew I was "handicapped" shooting against the bottom feeders. I never won anything; but I never placed last, either.

The whole idea was to have fun and maybe get a little better. We seem to have lost that notion.

As the competition aspect of the game heated up over the years, the "equipment race" really began to tell. But that is not what turned me off from staying in the game. I shot a match one time where one stage was particularly challenging, involving partially-obscured targets and some off-hand-only shooting. I did not crawl through it, but shot carefully and got all "A" hits. One guy on my squad burned through it, shot at least five more rounds than were called for, had TWO "mikes" and several "D" hits... yet his final score on the stage was higher than mine because he did it a lot faster.

That is utter BS, as far as I'm concerned. Now, I've had several competitor types attempt to 'splain (justify?) how this can be. None of it made sense to me.

Anyway... so much for ancient history. This discussion is quite entertaining. Please continue.

.

I believe both major shooting sports need to place far more emphasis on accuracy. Penalties for misses should likewise be increased. As in, you just shot a bus full of orphans. 100 second penalty. :)

Only hits change the fight etc etc etc.

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 12:07 PM
Brazos has surely shipped 2000 units and continues production.

Brazos uses STI frames so you can't argue that it came that way from the factory.

Though if they attempt to argue that, that would make any gun built from a stripped frame illegal. As it wasn't shipped from the factory complete.

Also Brazos could short circuit that by getting STI to brand some frames with their name.

orionz06
02-18-2014, 12:07 PM
The rules merely outline the ways you can beat the system. IDPA has too many rules and too many ways to game the game that's not a game but is a game pretending to not be a game.

I have no doubts in my mind that ALL posters in this thread could come up with a rule set that works and everyone agrees upon. Hell, we would even articulate why for quirky stuff rather than leaving it go unanswered.

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 12:19 PM
The rules merely outline the ways you can beat the system. IDPA has too many rules and too many ways to game the game that's not a game but is a game pretending to not be a game.

I have no doubts in my mind that ALL posters in this thread could come up with a rule set that works and everyone agrees upon. Hell, we would even articulate why for quirky stuff rather than leaving it go unanswered.

The question is how to fix it? And would the current leadership consider those suggestions, or is the way to fix it to splinter off like IDPA did from USPSA?

cclaxton
02-18-2014, 12:29 PM
Most of the posters here who are whining about IDPA sound more like sour grapes because you don't want to play by the rules, as written (and maybe wish you could if not for the rules). If you have rejected IDPA because of your own reasons, then be okay with that and move on. But throwing rotten tomatoes only serves to damage the reputation of IDPA or to engage in retribution. There are tens of thousands of mostly satisfied IDPA shooters enjoying the sport. So how about just moving on and leaving us to our sport without you trying to damage it? If, on the other hand, you are an IDPA shooter and just want to respectfully suggest improvements (being positive), then there is a process for that. Just remember that Change is not for the impatient.

If your purpose is to engage in a discussion on IDPA rules that you want to subject to peer review so that you can submit the suggestion to IDPA, then that is a good and valuable discussion.

Being positive is going to get us all further than spiteful criticism. And that goes for USPSA, KSTG, 3Gun, whatever.
Cody

orionz06
02-18-2014, 12:34 PM
IDPA has earned the reputation it has based on their actions, not based on participants debating rules on a forum.


I have little to no confidence that their current processes allow for positive change as the evidence suggests that using their process will make things worse.

PPGMD, the best way I know to fix it would be to put it out of its misery and start over. The tens of thousands of shooters who aren't vocal about anything likely wouldn't know the difference anyway. And hell, the game might just be better.

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 12:37 PM
So how about just moving on and leaving us to our sport without you trying to damage it?

Sometimes the things must die.

You don't see very many buggy whip manufacturers anymore since the automobile wasn't invented.

But in reality I think forming a successful splinter sport from IDPA would improve IDPA. IDPA's leadership has shown that they have no intention of routinely listening to the suggestions of anyone outside their inner circle that doesn't writes them a large check every year.

So perhaps a loss in revenue would be the only way to get them to listen. For example IDPA splintering away from USPSA and taking membership with it is often credited with the creation of the Production, Single Stack, and the Revolver divisions. Something similar might be required to get Joyce Wilson and the IDPA BOD to listen to people like us.

orionz06
02-18-2014, 12:40 PM
All this said, I would certainly agree that one could not charge their glow in the dark sights while on the line or on deck or in the presence of an RO as well as abiding by the cold range handling rules.

TheTrevor
02-18-2014, 12:53 PM
If your purpose is to engage in a discussion on IDPA rules that you want to subject to peer review so that you can submit the suggestion to IDPA, then that is a good and valuable discussion.

Who appointed you the arbiter of what we are and are not allowed to discuss?
Why are you entitled to judge whether the tone of those conversations is appropriate?
Are you the current or former moderator of an IDPA forum elsewhere, and is that why you are (mistakenly, IMHO) acting like such here?

Cody, I've read many interesting comments from you on other topics. When it comes to IDPA, though, your judgmental comments supporting the IDPA Orthodox Church are both tiresome and predictable, again in my opinion only. Perhaps a re-examination of your own approach would get better results, starting with "maybe I should stop telling other people how they can talk about IDPA".

LSP972
02-18-2014, 01:23 PM
IDPA has too many rules and too many ways to game the game that's not a game but is a game pretending to not be a game.



That, sir, was masterful.

Reminds of the FEMA guy who amazed us all during Katrina: "We need to get a visual on the situation so we can de-conflict the issue."

The issue? Getting a metric crap-load of paper plates to the field kitchen that was feeding the troops in Gretna (New Orleans 'burb). I kid you not.

Dealing with those people was... interesting.

You work for them, by any chance???:D

.

VolGrad
02-18-2014, 01:36 PM
Expressing dislike of rules or policies of a game is perfectly normal and acceptable.

No one here has a responsibility to defend, support, promote, or like IDPA. It's inappropriate to tell others that they should keep their opinions to themselves.


The rules merely outline the ways you can beat the system. IDPA has too many rules and too many ways to game the game that's not a game but is a game pretending to not be a game.

I am pretty indifferent to most of the rules people get pissed about because I'm not good enough to win, place, or even show. I'll never compete in a match past the state championship. Heck, I'm only there because it's an open sign-up and not a invitational or shoot-in.

I just shoot the stages the best I can while adhering to what rules I can remember. If I get a proc I get a proc. I generally don't give a kitten. If I ever decide the rules are causing the game to no longer be fun I'll quit and move on.

I generally grow tired of the bitching and moaning about the rules during the walk through and usually want to scream shut the kitten up. If you don't like the rules at least wait until you get back to your keyboard to complain as I'm trying to remember which non-threat to shoot first. ;)

That being said I feel all members have the right to point out the issues they have. No one has the right to stifle that discussion any more than folks have the right to stifle the IDPA rule defenders. Should people be respectful of one another? Sure. However, that isn't always the case in the real world, in a gunfight, or in a game. You can't legislate good manners and who here wants to anyway?

Lastly, it always pisses me off when people refer to the collective "we", "us", or "them" in reference to 2A issues. We aren't all the same. We all have different views based on our unique perspectives. Don't lump me in with you. Don't speak for me and I won't speak for you just because we both like to shoot paper.

Assimilation <> Good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JV_
02-18-2014, 01:40 PM
I generally grow tired of the bitching and moaning about the rules during the walk through and usually want to scream shut the kitten up.Agreed. As long as we're all playing by the same rules, I don't get worked up about it.

jetfire
02-18-2014, 02:24 PM
I generally grow tired of the bitching and moaning about the rules during the walk through and usually want to scream shut the kitten up. If you don't like the rules at least wait until you get back to your keyboard to complain as I'm trying to remember which non-threat to shoot first. ;)

Oh my god this, so much. I have shot on some really great squads, and some really rules-lawyer squads. I'm always happier when my squad just accepts what the rules are and shoots the match. Now, this only applies if the rules are being enforced fairly. If there are actual issues, then by all means speak up.

A rule of thumb for any shooter: "If you find something to complain about in every stage at a match, the problem isn't the stage design."

TheRoland
02-18-2014, 02:32 PM
Most of the posters here who are whining about IDPA sound more like sour grapes because you don't want to play by the rules, as written (and maybe wish you could if not for the rules).... So how about just moving on and leaving us to our sport without you trying to damage it? If, on the other hand, you are an IDPA shooter and just want to respectfully suggest improvements (being positive), then there is a process for that. Just remember that Change is not for the impatient. ...


I don't know about posters here, but the people on other forums (and facebook) who have amplified this enough that the P-F.com post was made are current, enthusiastic IDPA members who have SO'ed and MD'ed major regional and state championships. They're generally using their real names; you can go look. They're not trying to damage the sport; they're frustrated because they don't see that the leadership is listening.

VolGrad
02-18-2014, 02:38 PM
A rule of thumb for any shooter: "If you find something to complain about in every stage at a match, the problem isn't the stage design."

Exactly. Or how bout bitch about flat footed reloads before the match starts then find a different song. Can you really go for 3-4 hours complaining about the same thing before it gets old even to you?

Seriously, I go to our monthly match to get out of the house, eat cake, and shoot some stuff. If I wanted to bitch, moan, complain, and argue with ppl I'd stay home on the internet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jetfire
02-18-2014, 03:22 PM
You have cake!?

JeffJ
02-18-2014, 03:40 PM
All this said, I would certainly agree that one could not charge their glow in the dark sights while on the line or on deck or in the presence of an RO as well as abiding by the cold range handling rules.

I could care less either way about that rule, I do think that it's a bunch of BS to take something from legal to illegal shortly before a match that people have already registered and paid for - therefore forcing them to either spend money on equipment that they had previously not needed, or have a handicap (perceived or real) that they didn't have when they signed up.

joshs
02-18-2014, 03:50 PM
All this said, I would certainly agree that one could not charge their glow in the dark sights while on the line or on deck or in the presence of an RO as well as abiding by the cold range handling rules.

Your flashlight clearly isn't powerful enough. I'm pretty sure I can charge my front sight while it is still in the holster . . . on the other side of a large room.

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac338/josh_savani/Mobile%20Uploads/photo.jpg

VolGrad
02-18-2014, 03:53 PM
You have cake!?

Oh yes, we have much cake. The MD's wife and a couple other spouses go all in baking before our monthly matches. There are usually a couple of different kinds of mini-sandwiches, a few different cookies, a few different cakes, etc to eat on throughout the day. They leave them out on one of the bays where we have to pass through to move from one stage to another. There's usually a big cooler of bottled water as well.

I may not get a trophy or free kittens from a sponsor but at least I get cake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jetfire
02-18-2014, 04:04 PM
I am shooting the wrong matches.

VolGrad
02-18-2014, 04:12 PM
I am shooting the wrong matches.

Come on down. It will give the groupies someone else to follow around other than ...... never mind. Come on down.

Jlw will get that joke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PPGMD
02-18-2014, 04:29 PM
I could care less either way about that rule, I do think that it's a bunch of BS to take something from legal to illegal shortly before a match that people have already registered and paid for - therefore forcing them to either spend money on equipment that they had previously not needed, or have a handicap (perceived or real) that they didn't have when they signed up.

Exactly, so much for the stability rule that was in the rule book.

Honestly I should just build a holster with a built in LED to charge the front sight just to spite them.

"No Mr. SO I am not using my flashlight to charge them, my holster has a built in LED charger."

But then again they will probably give me a FTDR just for spite too.

NEPAKevin
02-18-2014, 05:31 PM
"No Mr. SO I am not using my flashlight to charge them, my holster has a built in LED charger."


I had an airsoft gun that could fire glow in the dark "tracer" BBs which were lit up while passing through the faux suppressor. You could probably mount the tiny light in your holster (like the led only sneakier) and be the next internet hero if it works, and possibly a martyr if as you suggested, its deemed FTDR worthy.

BaiHu
02-18-2014, 08:42 PM
I may not get a trophy or free kittens from a sponsor but at least I get cake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Damn, that makes me want to travel to GA just to shoot, eat small sandwiches and home made cake. There's a kick ass and chew bubble gum play on this, but I'm too lazy to type it so just make up your own and laugh.

hufnagel
02-19-2014, 10:04 AM
P-F meet up in GA to shoot matches and eat cake.

I'm so there.

Tamara
02-19-2014, 10:07 AM
Exactly, so much for the stability rule that was in the rule book.

Honestly I should just build a holster with a built in LED to charge the front sight just to spite them.

"No Mr. SO I am not using my flashlight to charge them, my holster has a built in LED charger."

But then again they will probably give me a FTDR just for spite too.

I think I'd be happy to chip in a few bucks to make that happen. What could be more tactical and street, yo! than a holster that made sure your glow-in-the dark sights were ready to operate at a moment's notice? How could they gripe about that? ;)

orionz06
02-19-2014, 10:10 AM
I think I'd be happy to chip in a few bucks to make that happen. What could be more tactical and street, yo! than a holster that made sure your glow-in-the dark sights were ready to operate at a moment's notice? How could they gripe about that? ;)

I'm not saying I made one but my idea is sound and I could make one.

NETim
02-19-2014, 10:17 AM
I am pretty indifferent to most of the rules people get pissed about because I'm not good enough to win, place, or even show. I'll never compete in a match past the state championship. Heck, I'm only there because it's an open sign-up and not a invitational or shoot-in.

I just shoot the stages the best I can while adhering to what rules I can remember. If I get a proc I get a proc. I generally don't give a kitten. If I ever decide the rules are causing the game to no longer be fun I'll quit and move on.

I generally grow tired of the bitching and moaning about the rules during the walk through and usually want to scream shut the kitten up. If you don't like the rules at least wait until you get back to your keyboard to complain as I'm trying to remember which non-threat to shoot first. ;)

That being said I feel all members have the right to point out the issues they have. No one has the right to stifle that discussion any more than folks have the right to stifle the IDPA rule defenders. Should people be respectful of one another? Sure. However, that isn't always the case in the real world, in a gunfight, or in a game. You can't legislate good manners and who here wants to anyway?

Lastly, it always pisses me off when people refer to the collective "we", "us", or "them" in reference to 2A issues. We aren't all the same. We all have different views based on our unique perspectives. Don't lump me in with you. Don't speak for me and I won't speak for you just because we both like to shoot paper.

Assimilation <> Good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Like

Eventually, when I become Grand Poohbah of the Universe (or at least our solar system), the game will be what I want it to be. Until then, I'll just shoot and enjoy the company.

ToddG
02-19-2014, 10:23 AM
I'm not saying I made one but my idea is sound and I could make one.

So awesome.

NETim
02-19-2014, 10:48 AM
I'm not saying I made one but my idea is sound and I could make one.

Are there any rules about using crushed up Lightning Bugs in IDPA?

ToddG
02-19-2014, 10:54 AM
Are there any rules about using crushed up Lightning Bugs in IDPA?

Today, no.
Tomorrow... maybe.

JV_
02-19-2014, 10:55 AM
It'll be a clarification.

NEPAKevin
02-19-2014, 11:54 AM
You know, I never knew that there were that many people who have phosphorescent paint on their sights that the matter of charging them would generate such a back lash. In fifteen years, we have only had one maybe two shooters at our night matches that I know of. Although the one did manage to shine his light into the eyes of the SO and most of his squad which sucks at an outdoor night match. One rather thoughtful individual suggested that a better way to charge up luminous sights would be to ask the SO if he could shine a light on your chamber while you perform a press check.

TheRoland
02-19-2014, 05:43 PM
You know, I never knew that there were that many people who have phosphorescent paint on their sights that the matter of charging them would generate such a back lash. In fifteen years, we have only had one maybe two shooters at our night matches that I know of.

There's probably a couple beyond the euro-style chargeable factory sights (another one or two). Black-On-Black sights are pretty popular in IDPA so it's a reasonable idea for one match.

But it's not really the rule that's pissing people off. It's that a huge sponsor can get a completely new rule "clarified" in a month while the membership can't get reasonable rule changes otherwise in any timeframe.

Craig N
02-19-2014, 10:11 PM
Rule 2.12.3.1 Range is Hot, Eyes and Ears

This is the 1st command given to the shooter starting the action of shooting a stage.

I would argue that this starts the stage and hitting your sights with your light during Load and Make Ready would NOT be against the rules.

UNK
02-20-2014, 09:49 AM
I see this in every company I have worked in. The bigger the company the more strict the rules. It is always the 1% that cause these rules to be created. We are talking firearms, live ammo and individuals who apparently can't self regulate. Doesn't sound like a good situation to me.
Having been a marksmanship instructor on a range where an individual intentionally started shooting people I won't go to a range if I can't be hot the entire time.

orionz06
02-20-2014, 10:10 AM
I see this in every company I have worked in. The bigger the company the more strict the rules. It is always the 1% that cause these rules to be created. We are talking firearms, live ammo and individuals who apparently can't self regulate. Doesn't sound like a good situation to me.
Having been a marksmanship instructor on a range where an individual intentionally started shooting people I won't go to a range if I can't be hot the entire time.

Shooting sports can still have plenty of safety rules without silly things that go against the mission of the league.

Not sure there has been a safety rule in any of the sports people have complained about, just rules made without conscious thought.

PPGMD
02-20-2014, 10:18 AM
Not sure there has been a safety rule in any of the sports people have complained about, just rules made without conscious thought.

The new safety rule is kind of annoying. They've adopted the 180 rule, except when they haven't.

But it isn't too much of a big deal.

UNK
02-20-2014, 10:25 AM
I would be surprised if there are rules made without concious thought. I have to deal with things all the time that on the surface don't seem logical, but usually when explained make a lot more sense. This does seem to smack a bit of censorship on the shooters. I don't see how they are going to enforce some of these rules. Everybody is going to be unhappy with some aspect of any orginization from time to time.

Shooting sports can still have plenty of safety rules without silly things that go against the mission of the league.

Not sure there has been a safety rule in any of the sports people have complained about, just rules made without conscious thought.

Mr_White
02-20-2014, 10:41 AM
The new safety rule is kind of annoying. They've adopted the 180 rule, except when they haven't.

But it isn't too much of a big deal.

What do they do instead of having a 180 rule?

Mr_White
02-20-2014, 10:42 AM
Rule 2.12.3.1 Range is Hot, Eyes and Ears

This is the 1st command given to the shooter starting the action of shooting a stage.

I would argue that this starts the stage and hitting your sights with your light during Load and Make Ready would NOT be against the rules.

Does anyone think a FTDR might result from this? Genuine question for people with more IDPA experience than I.

PPGMD
02-20-2014, 10:46 AM
What do they do instead of having a 180 rule?

They have muzzle safe points.

Typically only done when they are running two stages per a bay (quite common as IDPA stage round counts are half USPSA so they can get more stages and increase the total match round count), or at a range with restrictions in the direction you can shoot at. They are typically stricter than the 180 degree rule.

Though most clubs also enforce the 180 degree rule too.

JV_
02-20-2014, 10:49 AM
Does anyone think a FTDR might result from this? Genuine question for people with more IDPA experience than I.

You probably have more experience, but I think consistency in rule enforcement isn't something they do well.

Mr_White
02-20-2014, 10:49 AM
Thank you for the explanation!

rsa-otc
02-20-2014, 11:00 AM
I am pretty indifferent to most of the rules people get pissed about because I'm not good enough to win, place, or even show. I'll never compete in a match past the state championship. Heck, I'm only there because it's an open sign-up and not a invitational or shoot-in.

I just shoot the stages the best I can while adhering to what rules I can remember. If I get a proc I get a proc. I generally don't give a kitten. If I ever decide the rules are causing the game to no longer be fun I'll quit and move on.

I generally grow tired of the bitching and moaning about the rules during the walk through and usually want to scream shut the kitten up. If you don't like the rules at least wait until you get back to your keyboard to complain as I'm trying to remember which non-threat to shoot first. ;)

That being said I feel all members have the right to point out the issues they have. No one has the right to stifle that discussion any more than folks have the right to stifle the IDPA rule defenders. Should people be respectful of one another? Sure. However, that isn't always the case in the real world, in a gunfight, or in a game. You can't legislate good manners and who here wants to anyway?

Lastly, it always pisses me off when people refer to the collective "we", "us", or "them" in reference to 2A issues. We aren't all the same. We all have different views based on our unique perspectives. Don't lump me in with you. Don't speak for me and I won't speak for you just because we both like to shoot paper.

Assimilation <> Good thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty much my attitude as well. Unless you are a sponsored shooter (I'm not really, wear the company logo and may get some ammo from time to time) at a major match what does winning get you, honorable mention and bragging rights? MY attitude is that if the rule works against my understanding of tactical reality I will take the procedural and do it tactically if it doesn't cause a safety issue. I'm there for me and to spend time with my friends (sometimes we even get cake). Even at sponsored matches, what's at stake a plaque? For most of us it's not like there's money or valuable prizes at stake based on the results.

For most who have to deal with ranges that regulate speed of shots and drawing the gun; where else can you go and for $20 have 4 to 10 stages set up for you and allow you to shoot at speed from the holster?

If I decide to take a procedural, when the match results come out I will take out the penalty to compare the results with my piers. I keep in mind whether the way I did it compared to "IDPA's" way gave me an unfair advantage.

When I came into IDPA there were rules I didn't agree with and some of those were fixed, and now there are others that I don't. that's life and I live with it.

I can see where folks like Caleb who's business may benefit from good match results or sponsored shooters whose sponsorship depends on good results can be expected to be upset regarding some arbitrary calls based on the vagueness of some rules. But if we are all playing by the same rules and they are applied equally, it's a game, play on.

Don Gwinn
02-20-2014, 02:08 PM
Yes, but isn't that the complaint here? That all the shooters are not playing by the same rules, because the rulebook says one thing, but the rule has been changed with almost no notice, so that people who tried to follow the rulebook in good faith are now at an unfair disadvantage?
I've never shot IDPA, no dog in the fight, but that seems to be the complaint. Honestly, the rule sounds fair to me, but *no* rule can be fair without notice. This is a basic rule that every school teacher has to learn: if you are not predictable and consistent to the point of hearing complaints about being "boring" from time to time, you are building unfairness into the system. Arbitrary or unpredictable rules cannot, by definition, be fair.
The exception, of course, is consensual chaos--the Calvinball exception.

cclaxton
02-21-2014, 06:11 PM
Just returned from shooting the IDPA Indoor Nationals at S&W and am more energized than ever about the incredible value of IDPA. In most of the stages it challenged me in ways that show me my strengths and my weaknesses in every area of practice. I was challenged in flashlight work, having to shoot one string in total darkness weak hand with flashlight. I was challenged with moving targets, disappearing targets which demanded that I shoot quick and accurate. I was challenged with moving while shooting in a variety of ways. I was challenged to remember which targets I had engaged. I was challenged to choose cover carefully. I was challenged to shoot in a cold wind tunnel at 20MPH. I was challenged to avoid distractions. Every stage that required use of cover had a dedicated SO watching the line of cover from about 2-3 yards where he could judge good use of cover. Penalties were given for clear violations, and not just half-a-foot. I saw NO violations of the moving while reloading rule, although there were only a couple of opportunities to break the rule. I saw quite a few penalties for engaging targets out of order because the stages were designed to give the shooter an option, and if you didn't have a good plan, you got bonus points. One of the best matches I have ever shot. And, the best indoor venue I have ever experienced, considering these were not shoothouses. There was some discussion about the Code of Conduct, but one SO working the match put it this way: The CofC was really for the SO's and Staff working the match because they wanted to make sure that the match was operated in a totally professional manner, and not like a club match. No one cared about the CofC who was shooting this match. The only discussion I had about IDPA rules was the imperfect judgement of cover calls, and even that attitude was changing as squads saw how the Cover SO made the calls.

We had a number of people DQ'd because their rounds didn't pass Chrono. Jack Ross 147gr chrono'd at 881 & 901FPS. Working theory is that Titegroup powder changes in the colder, drier climates. My theory is barometric pressure was a factor. Either way it pretty well sucked for them. The MD had a variety of factory rounds tested with the chrono equipment to verify it was tracking against known ammo varieties to make sure the chrono was calibrated.

Everyone was excited to be shooting the matches. People accepted the new rules.

On the nightsights: I found that night sights would have provided very little advantage, if any, in the stages we shot there. When you needed a flashlight, it resulted in still being able to get a sight picture without tritium. If you chose to use no flashlight in one particular stage, you needed to point-shoot and you could see the outline of the targets before they disappeared. You had to open a door, which triggered domino targets falling in the dark. You had to open the door strong hand then draw. By the time you got your gun out of the holster they were beginning to fall, so using a flashlight would have provided very little advantage and maybe slowed you down. Few people actually had tritiums or rechargeable sights. There was a lot of discussion on flashlight techniques and exchange of ideas and experiences and success stories.

For those naysayers about IDPA: I think you are blowing these rules changes entirely out of proportion given the overall value of shooting IDPA matches, especially at the Major Levels. Most people would rather shoot and focus on technique, improvement, stage planning, and just enjoying the COF. If IDPA is not your cup of tea, then move on. If you have complaints, register them respectfully with the right people, and if they don't take your suggestions, then get over it...IDPA doesn't have to agree with you!!! There are a lot of people involved in those policy decisions and due consideration is given, but it's not a public debate with IDPA. The YUKU forum is the place to make those appeals and discuss them.

In the meantime, I hope everyone will remember the value of being challenged in a COF, and that is what makes it such a valuable shooting sport.

Cody

ST911
02-21-2014, 06:33 PM
I was challenged to choose cover carefully. I was challenged to shoot in a cold wind tunnel at 20MPH.

Add 20-30mph in gusts, and it's like shooting in WY and the Dakotas most of the time.

TheTrevor
02-21-2014, 06:43 PM
If IDPA is not your cup of tea, then move on. If you have complaints, register them respectfully with the right people, and if they don't take your suggestions, then get over it...IDPA doesn't have to agree with you!!! There are a lot of people involved in those policy decisions and due consideration is given, but it's not a public debate with IDPA. The YUKU forum is the place to make those appeals and discuss them.

Again with this? Really?

You just can't resist trolling PF with these peremptory commands regarding how to think and how to speak, can you?

For the avoidance of doubt, I think your last post definitely crossed over into trolling territory.

Mr_White
02-21-2014, 06:44 PM
If IDPA is not your cup of tea, then move on. If you have complaints, register them respectfully with the right people, and if they don't take your suggestions, then get over it...IDPA doesn't have to agree with you!!! There are a lot of people involved in those policy decisions and due consideration is given, but it's not a public debate with IDPA. The YUKU forum is the place to make those appeals and discuss them.

No. I will continue engaging in discussion about IDPA when and where there are other people who also choose to engage in that discussion. Where do you think you get the authority to demand these things?

I am glad you had a great time at the match, Cody.

ToddG
02-21-2014, 06:48 PM
For those naysayers about IDPA: I think you are blowing these rules changes entirely out of proportion given the overall value of shooting IDPA matches, especially at the Major Levels. Most people would rather shoot and focus on technique, improvement, stage planning, and just enjoying the COF. If IDPA is not your cup of tea, then move on. If you have complaints, register them respectfully with the right people, and if they don't take your suggestions, then get over it...IDPA doesn't have to agree with you!!! There are a lot of people involved in those policy decisions and due consideration is given, but it's not a public debate with IDPA. The YUKU forum is the place to make those appeals and discuss them.

Cody, I appreciate and admire your enthusiasm for IDPA. I mean that sincerely, and I know you know it.

However, please consider this a direct instruction: you do not get to tell people what they can and cannot discuss on this forum. You do not get to tell people that they need to go to a different forum to voice their opinion about IDPA. If the Staff feel the discussion is getting out of hand and losing value, we will address it. Thank you. In the meantime, a thread about things people dislike about IDPA is perfectly acceptable just as is a thread about why people don't like Glocks or anything else shooting-related.

PPGMD
02-21-2014, 07:08 PM
In the meantime, I hope everyone will remember the value of being challenged in a COF, and that is what makes it such a valuable shooting sport.

You say that as if to imply that IDPA has the monopoly of challenging COFs.

You want to see a challenging course of fire, shoot any match ran by the USA staff. Shannon's matches are some of the most difficult I've shot.

cclaxton
02-21-2014, 09:03 PM
You say that as if to imply that IDPA has the monopoly of challenging COFs.
You want to see a challenging course of fire, shoot any match ran by the USA staff. Shannon's matches are some of the most difficult I've shot.

I did NOT say that IDPA has a monopoly on challenging COF and I did NOT say IDPA was better than any other shooting sport....but it continues to be a compelling and popular shooting sport and of great value and is accessible and more friendly to new shooters. The ProAm, The Biachi Cup, and plenty of other matches also challenge top level shooters. But most people can't get into those matches.

I wouldn't try to put any other shooting sport down. My point is that IDPA continues to be a very valuable shooting sport in terms of learning where we are strong and where we need to improve, and we can have fun competing and visiting such fantastic ranges such as S&W. For those of you who are too good for IDPA, I am sure you can find places to enjoy action pistol in your own way. Go for it.
Cody

orionz06
02-21-2014, 09:27 PM
Everyone was excited to be shooting the matches. People accepted the new rules.

They had no choice.



If you have complaints, register them respectfully with the right people, and if they don't take your suggestions, then get over it...IDPA doesn't have to agree with you!!! There are a lot of people involved in those policy decisions and due consideration is given, but it's not a public debate with IDPA. The YUKU forum is the place to make those appeals and discuss them.
It not *a* debate, it is their way and that is it. Minimal to no reason used.



For those of you who are too good for IDPA, I am sure you can find places to enjoy action pistol in your own way. Go for it.
Cody
You continue to miss the point. I don't recall anyone here saying they do not or have not shot IDPA, just discussion on how much better it could be. I know I want to like it a lot more. Doesn't keep me away from it, it is just frustrating to see the potential go to waste.

cclaxton
02-21-2014, 09:51 PM
Cody, I appreciate and admire your enthusiasm for IDPA. I mean that sincerely, and I know you know it.
However, please consider this a direct instruction: you do not get to tell people what they can and cannot discuss on this forum. You do not get to tell people that they need to go to a different forum to voice their opinion about IDPA. If the Staff feel the discussion is getting out of hand and losing value, we will address it. Thank you. In the meantime, a thread about things people dislike about IDPA is perfectly acceptable just as is a thread about why people don't like Glocks or anything else shooting-related.

Fair enough, and I didn't think about the implications when I suggested going to the YUKU forum...I support participation here at Pistol-forum as you know. Let me try and correct that now:
- I know that IDPA staff monitor the YUKU forum and they have a section for rules suggestions that the IDPA staff monitor. I assume you have no problem notifying people they can go there to post suggestions where IDPA staff can review? And, I would also encourage people to post a copy here.
- I have no problem with a thread where people discuss what they don't like about IDPA or USPSA. I am not in complete agreement with all the IDPA rules, or USPSA rules or Codes of Conduct, either. As long as I am able to express my opinion that when someone here is trying to just trash the sport, then I hope I am allowed to call them on it in a respectful manner. I may not always be perfect at expressing myself, and for that I apologize.

Cody

ToddG
02-21-2014, 09:57 PM
Thank you for the clarification and understanding, Cody, and thanks for letting folks know that there is a formal direct means of contact to IDPA HQ at the other forum. If you want to post up a link, that's cool with me... though the folks at the YUKU forum might not be happy with you if too many of our forum's folks follow it for these purposes. :cool:

PPGMD
02-21-2014, 10:02 PM
The ProAm, The Biachi Cup, and plenty of other matches also challenge top level shooters. But most people can't get into those matches.

I can't think of a single match outside of the USPSA nationals and the IPSC World Shoot that isn't open to anyone that is willing to pay the fee and sign up.

In fact you can sign up for the Bianchi Cup right here:
https://bianchicup.nra.org/bianchiregistration/

Because my fall match is canceled due to USA being so busy, I will be shooting the IPSC Nationals this year instead. I have no special slot, I simply pay my fee and get in.


I wouldn't try to put any other shooting sport down. My point is that IDPA continues to be a very valuable shooting sport in terms of learning where we are strong and where we need to improve, and we can have fun competing and visiting such fantastic ranges such as S&W. For those of you who are too good for IDPA, I am sure you can find places to enjoy action pistol in your own way. Go for it.

You seem to think that without IDPA all that would simply disappear. Practical shooting was around before IDPA, and if IDPA falls due to mismanagement another sport will step in and take up the slack. But we don't want IDPA to fall, we want it to shape things up, stop acting like idiots with codes of conduct, and kissing sponsors butts.

ToddG
02-21-2014, 10:07 PM
... and kissing sponsors butts.

Because USPSA and other sports have never been known to do that... :cool:

edited to add: I know for a fact that IDPA has lost potentially big-dollar sponsors because of its unwillingness to compromise on certain rules. Crimson Trace is one example.

jetfire
02-21-2014, 10:09 PM
From a purely administrative standpoint, IDPA is one of the best run organizations out there. It and 3Gun Nation are smartly run, for-profit organizations and it shows in their growth both in terms of shooter participation and sponsor dollars.

PPGMD
02-21-2014, 10:35 PM
Because USPSA and other sports have never been known to do that... :cool:

Sure, but never so openly as IDPA did.

They had plenty of time to craft a new rule for S&W two days before national level match, but they couldn't get the stage descriptions up two weeks ahead of time as is required by the new rulebook.


From a purely administrative standpoint, IDPA is one of the best run organizations out there. It and 3Gun Nation are smartly run, for-profit organizations and it shows in their growth both in terms of shooter participation and sponsor dollars.

For profit corporations certainly have that advantage. But they also have the disadvantage that the typically participants have little say in the running of the organization beyond taking their dollars elsewhere.

cclaxton
02-21-2014, 10:38 PM
They had no choice. Sure they did...no one forced anyone to attend the match or be a member of IDPA.

It not *a* debate, it is their way and that is it. Minimal to no reason used. I am not exactly sure what you are saying here. If you are saying that you know IDPA staff personally and are privy to the internal workings of IDPA and you know there is no internal debate, then that is one thing. If you are saying that it *appears* that there is no debate, then that is another. Same for use of *reason* for the rules...if you know IDPA staff and you know firsthand that IDPA makes up rules for "no reason" that is one thing, but if you are saying YOU can't see any reason was used, then that is another.


You continue to miss the point. I don't recall anyone here saying they do not or have not shot IDPA, just discussion on how much better it could be. I know I want to like it a lot more. Doesn't keep me away from it, it is just frustrating to see the potential go to waste.
Well, I do know some here have said they don't shoot IDPA for their own reasons, and some of their reasoning doesn't make sense to me, and some of it just seems like trash talk. I am always in favor of making improvements in anything...I see it as a part of evolution and that is good. But at some point we have to use the rules as they are. Constant change and radical change are hard for people to incorporate (and to train people) unless it happens over time and in logical and natural steps. I have advocated for allowing AIWB, for making BUG a new Division, for use of Laser grips, and, while not a strong advocate, would support making non-threat hits in the zero area more of a penalty, and allowing MD's to make it a COF requirement to keep your muzzle behind the plane of cover. I am not an advocate for hard fault lines for cover because I think it restricts the COF design. You are right...IDPA can be much more....and I think it will be...but it means making a respectful case to the right people...and time.
Cody

cclaxton
02-21-2014, 10:59 PM
I can't think of a single match outside of the USPSA nationals and the IPSC World Shoot that isn't open to anyone that is willing to pay the fee and sign up.
In fact you can sign up for the Bianchi Cup right here: https://bianchicup.nra.org/bianchiregistration/
Because my fall match is canceled due to USA being so busy, I will be shooting the IPSC Nationals this year instead. I have no special slot, I simply pay my fee and get in.
You seem to think that without IDPA all that would simply disappear. Practical shooting was around before IDPA, and if IDPA falls due to mismanagement another sport will step in and take up the slack. But we don't want IDPA to fall, we want it to shape things up, stop acting like idiots with codes of conduct, and kissing sponsors butts.
I know someone invited to the Bianchi Cup and he told me it was invitational only...there may be a registration, but you have to be good enough to get in. I thought the ProAm was the same way...you have to be at least a B-Class shooter. But I don't know that to be a fact. I have not posted anything to suggest that if IDPA wasn't here that Action Pistol would disappear. In fact I have tried to clearly and repeatedly state that I support EVERY Action Pistol sport. I was simply pointing out that I am totally convinced that IDPA provides value, not that it is the only game in town.

Are you making an accusation that IDPA is mismanaged, as an organization? They have made some missteps but I don't see evidence of corruption or negligence. Do you know something I don't know? I support improving IDPA, but just because you or I want them to change any particular thing doesn't mean they will agree or if they do agree, have a schedule to implement it. Things take time to change. Like Waivers of Liability, Codes of Conduct are not standardized, although I wish they were. Nobody...I mean NOBODY brought up the COde of Conduct...I brought up the subject and NO ONE gave me a strong opinion other than that it was really intended for the SO's. And I talked to dozens of shooters and staff while I was there. I really think the CofC is a non-issue. People care more about the rules of the game. As for sponsors...well we live in a capitalism and we need sponsors unless we are all willing to spend a lot more on memberships and sanctioned matches. (Full Disclosure: I do run a part-time ammo business, and do occasionally sponsor a sanctioned match..and my business always sponsors me :-) ). Industry influence is always going to be a part of the sport...every shooting sport that I know of. But they don't always get their way, either. I am sure if it was up to S&W, we would have an optics division.
Cody

PPGMD
02-21-2014, 11:45 PM
I know someone invited to the Bianchi Cup and he told me it was invitational only...there may be a registration, but you have to be good enough to get in.

At one point it was invitation only, and I suppose that it may technically still be as the letter that came with the PDF application said "This is your invitation..." But there are no requirements to sign up beyond paying a fee.

I was unclassified when I signed up for the Bianchi Cup for the first time.


Are you making an accusation that IDPA is mismanaged, as an organization? They have made some missteps but I don't see evidence of corruption or negligence. Do you know something I don't know?

I do think they are mismanaged they have stepped on their proverbial member over and over again. And there even goes back to some of the early days as Todd has noted. Based on the people that I know a almost everyone that took IDPA seriously as a sport have left (and most of those went to three gun).


I support improving IDPA, but just because you or I want them to change any particular thing doesn't mean they will agree or if they do agree, have a schedule to implement it. Things take time to change.

You keep on spouting that, as if IDPA actually listens. Hate to break it to you, unless your suggestion is extremely minor or comes with an expensive sponsor attached. IDPA won't give you the time of day. Joyce Wilson made that very clear.

Also you keep on pointing people to the IDPA forum. You must not have been saying attention but IDPA has said that they will not take any suggestions posted on the forums under consideration. All suggestions have to be sent through the official channels.


Nobody...I mean NOBODY brought up the COde of Conduct...I brought up the subject and NO ONE gave me a strong opinion other than that it was really intended for the SO's. And I talked to dozens of shooters and staff while I was there. I really think the CofC is a non-issue.

Of course it was no issue, no one is going to complain about it they signed the right away under the pain of perjury.

I am willing to bet less than half even did more than scan through it.

But regardless this is the national level match, the people that would be willing to complain won't do it on site. I know I've seen at least one negative range report from the indoor nationals. Including a SO illegally putting down a fault line.

BaiHu
02-22-2014, 12:01 AM
Having just shot USPSA this past winter, watching this thread go on like this makes me a) never want to care about my score, b) never try IDPA, because Cody "protests too much" and c) I'm a natural born complainer (2nd child :-P) that thinks of himself as an "improver" and if I get too attached to a game, I'll find all the flaws in it, never play it again and start my own thing like KSTG.

Cody,

I'm glad you love it, but your message is making me move further, not closer to IDPA and that may just be, because I'm hearing the details and have nothing to do with your love or explanation.

For the record, I've heard no one trash IDPA. Complaints, yes.



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cclaxton
02-22-2014, 12:35 AM
Having just shot USPSA this past winter, watching this thread go on like this makes me a) never want to care about my score, b) never try IDPA, because Cody "protests too much" and c) I'm a natural born complainer (2nd child :-P) that thinks of himself as an "improver" and if I get too attached to a game, I'll find all the flaws in it, never play it again and start my own thing like KSTG. Cody, I'm glad you love it, but your message is making me move further, not closer to IDPA and that may just be, because I'm hearing the details and have nothing to do with your love or explanation. For the record, I've heard no one trash IDPA. Complaints, yes.
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You not wanting to shoot IDPA because I make supportive statements just doesn't make sense, unless you just don't like me. But that would be like me saying I don't want to shoot USPSA because I think some of the top USPSA shooters are arrogant. So what you are really saying is that I should stop making supportive statements of IDPA so that you will feel better about trying it? Not sure where you are going with this. I don't know where you got the quotes "protest too much," as I don't think I have ever used the word "protest" in any of my postings and, while I haven't read every thread, don't think anyone has claimed I was "protesting." That is your word. Well, maybe "trash talk" is in the eye of the beholder. I am not going to go back and identify every incidence of trash talk. But I will going forward. And to me trash talk is posting hyperbole or insults with nothing positive to say...and that goes for any shooting sport, not just IDPA.
Cody

John Ralston
02-22-2014, 01:03 AM
I don't know where you got the quotes "protest too much,"

That would be Hamlet...

trailrunner
02-22-2014, 06:21 AM
I don't know where you got the quotes "protest too much," as I don't think I have ever used the word "protest" in any of my postings and, while I haven't read every thread, don't think anyone has claimed I was "protesting."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_lady_doth_protest_too_much,_methinks



"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a quotation from the 1602 play Hamlet by William Shakespeare. It has been used as a figure of speech, in various phrasings, to indicate that a person's overly frequent or vehement attempts to convince others of something have ironically helped to convince others that the opposite is true, by making the person look insincere and defensive.

ToddG
02-22-2014, 06:35 AM
Thread is about IDPA, not characterizing one another's positions. Please keep the discussion on topic. If you wish to discuss rhetorical technique, start a new thread or take it to PMs.

Thank you.

BaiHu
02-22-2014, 08:53 AM
Sorry for drift. What I'm trying to say and I think others are as well is that sometimes there are indefensible positions. All games have problems just like any gathering of people doing an activity will find disagreement or difficulty in communication. IDPA, as an organization, is no more exempt from the trappings of humanness than a Mensa meeting.

That being said, with criticism comes growth, and to have someone sign a pledge of fealty is not only on the border of creating automatons (fascist ones in my mind) in an organization, but it also turns a guy like me, who's never tried IDPA, totally off.

Let's not forget who their audience is: gun owners, "don't tread on me" folk, and small government people....

That's called bad management.

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JAD
02-22-2014, 11:10 AM
That's called bad management.

Maybe. Bad marketing maybe. We will see -- if they lose members over the bext meaningful period, you're right. Want some side action on that?

What this thread has done for me is reinforce what I remember about organized competitive shooting and the people who take it seriously.

GJM
02-22-2014, 11:25 AM
Has anyone does an analysis of the average procedurals per IDPA stage compared to average penalties per USPSA stage?

NEPAKevin
02-22-2014, 11:53 AM
... though the folks at the YUKU forum might not be happy with you if too many of our forum's folks follow it for these purposes. :cool:

Yea, because no-one ever complains, or whines, or other wise suggests anything discouraging about the spirit, purpose and rationale of IDPA over here.
/sarcasm off
Be civil, sign your posts, and put your used plates and plastic ware in the appropriate refuse bins when you are done with your cake and we will all get along just fine.

PPGMD
02-22-2014, 11:55 AM
Maybe. Bad marketing maybe. We will see -- if they lose members over the bext meaningful period, you're right. Want some side action on that?

Lets be completely honest. Even if they lose members they won't see that loss because for every member that quits there are five new shooters, who know nothing about the times that IDPA has shot itself in the foot, that try the sport.

PPGMD
02-22-2014, 12:04 PM
Has anyone does an analysis of the average procedurals per IDPA stage compared to average penalties per USPSA stage?

Kind of hard to do that since there are so few in USPSA. I can count the number of times I remember getting a penalty in USPSA on one hand, and have fingers to spare.

A quick check of the Florida Open results (the first major match on the USPSA website). Out of the top 20 in production (the top people are more likely to get penalties because they run through the stage too fast) only two people got penalties.

GJM
02-22-2014, 12:53 PM
Based on the IDPA match I shot last spring, two procedurals a stage, seemed about my rate.

joshs
02-22-2014, 01:13 PM
Has anyone does an analysis of the average procedurals per IDPA stage compared to average penalties per USPSA stage?

We probably give out even more procedurals in KSTG than most IDPA matches even though KSTG rules are more objective. I think a lot of this has to do with people who just show up and shoot the match without looking at the rulebook. I don't think you can measure the "fairness" of a given set of rules based the number of procedurals issued.

orionz06
02-22-2014, 01:27 PM
We probably give out even more procedurals in KSTG than most IDPA matches even though KSTG rules are more objective. I think a lot of this has to do with people who just show up and shoot the match without looking at the rulebook. I don't think you can measure the "fairness" of a given set of rules based the number of procedurals issued.

This!

Goes to my aforementioned point, tweak the rules to satisfy the P-F crowd along with a few other segments of the internet world and no one will notice, care, or shoot differently. And the sport may grow.

JAD
02-22-2014, 01:56 PM
Lets be completely honest. Even if they lose members they won't see that loss because for every member that quits there are five new shooters, who know nothing about the times that IDPA has shot itself in the foot, that try the sport.

I wouldn't see that as a loss either. If net members increase I'm pretty sure revenue increases.

BaiHu
02-22-2014, 02:07 PM
I think a lot of this has to do with people who just show up and shoot the match without looking at the rulebook. I don't think you can measure the "fairness" of a given set of rules based the number of procedurals issued.

Given the top 20 competitors mentioned by PPGMD, would you still say that's true?

KSTG at least seems a) honest about its goals and b) is new, so getting higher than average procedurals seems normal to start in my mind.



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ToddG
02-22-2014, 02:27 PM
KSTG gives out a ton of procedurals because we have a ton of rules that can earn procedurals. There is no getting around that and no apologies to be made. Our cover rule, for example, has three main components and people break some of them religiously. The reason we have the rules is to get people using cover properly. I've watched, over the two years or so that we've been doing our matches, that our "regulars" can now approach a piece of cover and use it moderately well without having to think about it. That was our goal.

IPSC has no such goal in terms of wanting its competitors to walk away knowing stuff like that. They're not trying to engineer their members into something. And I can absolutely see that having an appeal compared to some guys who decided they wanted to manipulate the thought waves of all their shooters into following Our Way of Doing Something.

IPSC = show up & shoot how you want. IDPA (and KSTG) aren't like that. We have no expectations of KSTG ever going anywhere. It's just our own local outlaw IDPA when you get down to it. If you don't like IDPA, you probably wouldn't like KSTG.

PPGMD
02-22-2014, 02:33 PM
I wouldn't see that as a loss either. If net members increase I'm pretty sure revenue increases.

From a pure revenue standpoint sure. But you lose more than just revenue when an experienced member quits. The experienced members typically are the SO, help setup, tear down, design stages, MD, etc.

GJM
02-22-2014, 02:40 PM
KSTG gives out a ton of procedurals because we have a ton of rules that can earn procedurals. There is no getting around that and no apologies to be made. Our cover rule, for example, has three main components and people break some of them religiously. The reason we have the rules is to get people using cover properly. I've watched, over the two years or so that we've been doing our matches, that our "regulars" can now approach a piece of cover and use it moderately well without having to think about it. That was our goal.

IPSC has no such goal in terms of wanting its competitors to walk away knowing stuff like that. They're not trying to engineer their members into something. And I can absolutely see that having an appeal compared to some guys who decided they wanted to manipulate the thought waves of all their shooters into following Our Way of Doing Something.

IPSC = show up & shoot how you want. IDPA (and KSTG) aren't like that. We have no expectations of KSTG ever going anywhere. It's just our own local outlaw IDPA when you get down to it. If you don't like IDPA, you probably wouldn't like KSTG.

When you say IPSC, do you mean "USPSA," "IPSC," or both?

No comment on KSTG -- what does it stand for again? I get the TG part is Todd Green, but what is the KS?

When discussing USPSA matches with my friends, I just can't recall any mention of procedurals. When I discuss IDPA matches, I can hardly remember them mentioning anything BUT the procedurals.

BaiHu
02-22-2014, 03:02 PM
KSTG=Kinda Sorta Tactical Game.

I hear you Todd and I think that you ARE listening to people and creating a cottage or I prefer "pirate" game that satisfies the serious self defense shooter who wants to learn ABOVE getting "points".

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joshs
02-22-2014, 03:03 PM
When discussing USPSA matches with my friends, I just can't recall any mention of procedurals. When I discuss IDPA matches, I can hardly remember them mentioning anything BUT the procedurals.

And? Did they just not read the rules before shooting the match, knew the rules, but chose to break them, or get hosed by bad RO calls. If the first two, then I don't see how that's anyone's fault but the shooters.

I've gotten just as many bad procedurals in USPSA, but I've also shot a lot more USPSA matches than IDPA.

I was one of the people that got bumped to Open from Production for having my LAMR mag in my front pocket before there was a "clarification" from NROI.

I got a really weird procedural because an RO didn't think my foot had been put down within a shooting area before a I broke a shot while I was running.

There are a bunch of others, mostly foot faults, but it certainly isn't impossible to get procedural penalties in USPSA.

ToddG
02-22-2014, 03:07 PM
In an ironic twist, KSTG came about very, very directly as a result of two guys (SLG and me) being extremely upset about a previous S&W IDPA Indoor Nationals match. We spent a long ride home from Mass to DC talking about If I were in charge...

GJM
02-22-2014, 03:10 PM
The recurring theme is the subjectivity of the procedural calls in IDPA. Not with beginner shooters.

Last one I heard from a friend was hilarious. He was supposed to shoot something moving backwards. He hit slide lock, and then had to, of course, stop before reloading to avoid a procedural. He then got a procedural because the RO said he wasn't moving again (enough) when he shot after the reload.

ToddG
02-22-2014, 03:14 PM
How is THAT a bad call?

If you are supposed to be shooting on the move and you're static for even a single shot it should earn a procedural. Anything ELSE would be subjective.

Lomshek
02-22-2014, 04:12 PM
When discussing USPSA matches with my friends, I just can't recall any mention of procedurals. When I discuss IDPA matches, I can hardly remember them mentioning anything BUT the procedurals.

I haven't done IDPA yet but USPSA/IPSC hands out procedurals for concrete violations like firing before a shooter is in the mandatory shooting box or engaging a two round target with three rounds or skipping a target completely (failure to engage). Other than disputing whether your foot was over the line or not there's really not much to argue about.

In IDPA (from my understanding) with the FTDR and use of cover rules it seems to be a little more open to interpretation of just what constitutes a violation and different RO's can have different criteria of what is a violation (a little more figure skating judging than finish line scoring). Such a system can create more procedural penalties when the shooter thinks they are fine to shoot but the RO thinks they are using insufficient cover and since there is no hard line it's the RO's call and not a physical line that was crossed.

joshs
02-22-2014, 04:26 PM
The recurring theme is the subjectivity of the procedural calls in IDPA. Not with beginner shooters.

Last one I heard from a friend was hilarious. He was supposed to shoot something moving backwards. He hit slide lock, and then had to, of course, stop before reloading to avoid a procedural. He then got a procedural because the RO said he wasn't moving again (enough) when he shot after the reload.

I agree with the dislike of subjective rules, and I also dislike the new reloading while moving rule, but that seems to be an accurate use of the rule. I don't see how it is subjective.

jetfire
02-22-2014, 05:28 PM
Quick notes on the match: to my observation, the rules were enforced as fairly as possible across the board. I saw one cover call on our squad, and it was a blatant violation.

This was a pretty tough match with some shots that were not easy for the top guys. The three top SSR shooters were all discussing the challenges of the match and wondering how the lower ranking shooters would have fared.

LSP972
02-22-2014, 06:06 PM
What this thread has done for me is reinforce what I remember about organized competitive shooting and the people who take it seriously.

BIG-time!!!!

.

MDS
02-22-2014, 06:08 PM
I've watched, over the two years or so that we've been doing our matches, that our "regulars" can now approach a piece of cover and use it moderately well without having to think about it. That was our goal.

I'm ridiculously impressed by this, myself. Last match, I thought I had crowded cover because I failed to think about it as I set up...but I didn't, I automatically stayed back and that's huge for me, I had a very intense instinct to crowd cover before shooting kstg. Obviously the cover rules are a major reason for this, but I think the quality of the folks ro'ing the matches is also a factor.


If you don't like IDPA, you probably wouldn't like KSTG.

Not sure I agree - I've disliked idpa because it wouldn't let me shoot aiwb, because a match takes pretty much all day, and because the clubs were run in ways that turned me off for various reasons. All of these things are fixed in kstg.


No comment on KSTG -- what does it stand for again? I get the TG part is Todd Green, but what is the KS?

Kan't Stand. ;)

GJM
02-22-2014, 07:24 PM
How is THAT a bad call?

If you are supposed to be shooting on the move and you're static for even a single shot it should earn a procedural. Anything ELSE would be subjective.

Rearward movement is IDPA is a complete joke. Most competitors flap their body parts, all the while moving mere inches rearward.

Anyone think movement in IDPA, forward or rearward is reflective of what you would do in a fight? Anyone think IDPA use of cover is reflective of what you would do in a fight? Anyone think most IDPA cover garments or "IDPA legal" holsters are suitable for daily concealed use?

If an IDPA match was nearby I would shoot it, just as I used to do in CT when IDPA first started, and my buddies and I would go up to S&W, because we could shoot an "extra match" during the week inside. I just wish IDPA dropped the faux tactical BS, and recognized their niche as USPSA lite, where you shot your sub 20 round courses of fire, and called it good without all the goofy pretend tactical rules, that really aren't tactical.

ToddG
02-22-2014, 07:35 PM
These are the kinds of posts that make me side with Cody. Seriously, if all someone wants to do is throw stones at IDPA that's fine with me but it's a pretty transparent act.


Rearward movement is IDPA is a complete joke. Most competitors flap their body parts, all the while moving mere inches rearward.

I agree. And a whole lot of people don't move much differently when they practice shooting on the move outside of IDPA. It's a game, there are rules, you simultaneously seem to want to complain that the rules are too objective (movement is movement) and too subjective.


Anyone think IDPA use of cover is reflective of what you would do in a fight?

Dramatically mores than the cover required by USPSA.


Anyone think most IDPA cover garments or "IDPA legal" holsters are suitable for daily concealed use?

Yes. Every time I hear someone whine about the "fishing vest" thing it immediately makes me realize they're more about criticizing IDPA for the sake of it than actually (a) caring about the sport or (b) thinking about reality. Again, I see people who've never heard of IDPA wearing those vests for concealment all the time. I guarantee a higher percentage of people in IDPA are using something close to their EDC gear than the percentage of USPSA shooters who would say the same. So if you don't care USPSA shooters aren't shooting from their real concealed gear, why hold IDPA to a different standard?

Basically, all I'm reading is "IDPA isn't enough different" combined with "IDPA is too different."

GJM
02-22-2014, 07:50 PM
Your post and various points are sufficiently convoluted that I think I would need to retain counsel to understand them. :)

I will try this one more time. My point is that USPSA is a game. It has no pretense of being anything but a game. IDPA is also a game. However, unlike USPSA, it has the pretense of being tactical. Despite trying to be tactical, it isn't in any realistic way, in its current configuration.

As I said, I would shoot IDPA if it is convenient. My comments are an attempt to improve IDPA, by suggesting it refocus on what is at its core, and is genuinely realistic, which is shooting reasonable round counts at reasonable shooting problems. 86 the goofy faux tactical stuff which is both not tactical and creates a bunch of subjective RO'ing.

ToddG
02-22-2014, 08:20 PM
I will try this one more time. My point is that USPSA is a game. It has no pretense of being anything but a game. IDPA is also a game. However, unlike USPSA, it has the pretense of being tactical. Despite trying to be tactical, it isn't in any realistic way, in its current configuration.

OK, I definitely understand what you're saying. But I think "it isn't in any realistic way" is just... wrong. I may not agree with all the "tactics" or how they're judged, but I'd much rather see someone use IDPA-style cover than no cover at all. Sticking your body around a wall on one foot and exposing yourself to six threats at once a-la-USPSA certainly isn't doing anyone any good.

Every single time I've been to a USPSA match I've shot it from concealment and every single time I've been hassled -- from a little teasing to having the MD called to "verify this is safe" -- by at least some of the ROs. I've had ROs tell me that I should be shooting the stages differently because I do things like engage from cover instead of running into free fire zones. Etc. So actually, it's kind of annoying to go to the "shoot it however you want" game and get put upon because I'm not there to play like they do.

IDPA has been successful despite itself in many ways because there are so many people who want a little dose of realism that you don't get in USPSA. The constant nagging that it's less than 100% realistic just wears after a while because none of us could come to the slightest fraction of an agreement as to what would constitute "realistic." Like I said, the "fishing vest" thing is always my favorite whine especially when I've been out to dinner at SHOT or other venues with IDPA national champions who are wearing 5.11 vests for everyday concealment. You know where the vest thing came from, right? It didn't get its start in IDPA. It got its start among people who had to carry real guns in a discreet setting. The fact that it's become connected with CCW among the serious shooting crowd doesn't equate to it being the glowing red blinking "man with gun" signal to the masses... just like fanny packs.

GJM
02-22-2014, 08:32 PM
I don't think we are disagreeing.

In my universe, I like the idea of separating the pure shooting from the tactics. Pursue shooting at a USPSA level, and take separate tactical training. However, that is just my choice, and I don't begrudge others that want to use IDPA as their way of combining both. IDPA by a mile beats the typical gun owner that loads their newly purchased handgun, and that is the last they touch it.

I was speaking with my friend and a PF member just a while ago, on his way back from an IDPA match. He was Colorado SSP state champion, so he isn't a gumby. THis afternoon, the RO was yelling "cover" at him as he was trying to shoot one of the stages. :)

ToddG
02-22-2014, 08:39 PM
The cover rule in IDPA is a mess. But I understand why they do it that way. The original KSTG rule was similar... and we had trouble with IDPA National Champions who came and shot our "beta test" match at the FBI HRT compound years ago. That's when we decided to switch to fault lines, which have their own major drawbacks but at least they're objective.

As I've said before the biggest difference between IDPA and USPSA to me is the objective. USPSA wants to throw a complicated problem at you and see how you solve it. IDPA wants to create a drill, sometimes a very complicated drill, and see how well you shoot the drill. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. The difference is that for whatever reason, a tiny portion of the folks who prefer the USPSA method cannot seem to accept that the IDPA method has a purpose or that anyone could prefer it.

GJM
02-22-2014, 09:50 PM
Just went to Enos, hit "view new content," and this popped us. Guess PF is not the only place discussing this.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=190637&hl=

ToddG
02-22-2014, 10:05 PM
The guy complaining about a procedural for just barely breaking the cover rule says it all...

m91196
02-22-2014, 10:24 PM
Just to be clear about the tape on the floor that's been mentioned, at the indoor nationals, it was placed by a member of a squad while the SO's were scoring targets on Friday. The next shooter stood on it using it as a reference point. We may have run two or three people before it was noticed and pulled up. After that we had to leave a body up range to police the range. I was the CSO on the stage.

jetfire
02-22-2014, 11:00 PM
I'm not really interested in wading into the whole discussion in this thread, but on the specific topic of the 2014 Indoor Nationals, this was the best and most evenly officiated IDPA match that I've shot yet. Were there issues? Yes. No major match will be without issues. Without being an IDPA Cheerleader however, I can say that the officiating I personally witnessed was handled evenly and professionally.

Tamara
02-23-2014, 01:00 PM
The guy complaining about a procedural for just barely breaking the cover rule says it all...

"I only put one foot out of bounds and they said the pass was incomplete!"

cclaxton
02-23-2014, 01:08 PM
I'm not really interested in wading into the whole discussion in this thread, but on the specific topic of the 2014 Indoor Nationals, this was the best and most evenly officiated IDPA match that I've shot yet. Were there issues? Yes. No major match will be without issues. Without being an IDPA Cheerleader however, I can say that the officiating I personally witnessed was handled evenly and professionally.
Same here. The addition of a dedicated SO to watch for cover (and nothing else) has dramatically reduced the subjectivity and thus the errors. The other match that was run like this was the Beast of the East...same thing.

The guys that didn't make Chrono appealed, new tests were performed and their scores now count.
Cody

bkent
02-23-2014, 01:47 PM
I think it's time for IDPA to get instant replay. ;)
Kent

TheTrevor
02-23-2014, 08:32 PM
I think it's time for IDPA to get instant replay. ;)
Kent

In all seriousness, I now make a point of having a squad-mate shoot video of my stages after getting DQ'd on a questionable call. I accepted it with good grace, but when several people say "too bad nobody was following behind shooting video"... that's a clue.

cclaxton
02-23-2014, 09:02 PM
Yeah, and I have never heard of an umpire calling a BALL a STRIKE either!!!!
Cody

VolGrad
02-23-2014, 10:03 PM
In all seriousness, I now make a point of having a squad-mate shoot video of my stages after getting DQ'd on a questionable call. I accepted it with good grace, but when several people say "too bad nobody was following behind shooting video"... that's a clue.

No offense intended but this is another reason I'll never be competitive. I just don't take it that serious. There are a few guys at our matches with cams on their hats or glasses. There are many more that film stages with their phones. I just like to go play and shoot. Taking film and watching playback is too much like work IMO. More power to those of you serious enough about it to go that far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TheTrevor
02-23-2014, 10:33 PM
No offense intended but this is another reason I'll never be competitive. I just don't take it that serious. There are a few guys at our matches with cams on their hats or glasses. There are many more that film stages with their phones. I just like to go play and shoot. Taking film and watching playback is too much like work IMO. More power to those of you serious enough about it to go that far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find video review of my shooting to be an excellent aid to skills development. It has the added benefit of clarifying any future friendly disagreements regarding borderline judgment calls.

HopetonBrown
02-24-2014, 02:59 AM
I wanted to try competition this year as a way to improve my defensive shooting skills (as opposed to trying to win) , and wasn't interested in the pure game aspects of USPSA , so IDPA appealed to me. This thread helped make it unappealing. With regards to the notion that vests aren't realistic, my friend who is a Federal agent wears a 5.11 vest to conceal his gear when a regular jacket would be too warm and has no idea what IDPA is.

JAD
02-24-2014, 04:24 AM
f clarifying any future friendly disagreements regarding borderline judgment calls.
If I find myself making a point with video to a match official, I am going to need to Silkwood shower the That Guy stink off of me.

TheTrevor
02-24-2014, 05:04 AM
If I find myself making a point with video to a match official, I am going to need to Silkwood shower the That Guy stink off of me.

That is perilously close to an insult, sir.

JAD
02-24-2014, 05:40 AM
That is perilously close to an insult, sir.

I ttried to be careful to phrase it so that it was not, sorry. A false DQ would be a real mind blow for me. I spent a lot of time officiating competitive shooting events, and I never saw one. If I thought that there was a chance that I was going to get another one, I wouldn't be lawyering up; I would stop participating in the sport.

joshs
02-24-2014, 07:47 AM
Is video review even allowed to be considered by an RO? In USPSA, I think the only review process is arbitration and where they poll the squad members on the call (where I think video review is specifically prohibited). Can you use video to review a call in IDPA?

m91196
02-24-2014, 07:51 AM
No video review is allowed in IDPA, at least under the current rules as I understand them. Today. At 7:55 EST.

orionz06
02-24-2014, 07:54 AM
I wanted to try competition this year as a way to improve my defensive shooting skills (as opposed to trying to win) , and wasn't interested in the pure game aspects of USPSA , so IDPA appealed to me. This thread helped make it unappealing. With regards to the notion that vests aren't realistic, my friend who is a Federal agent wears a 5.11 vest to conceal his gear when a regular jacket would be too warm and has no idea what IDPA is.

This thread shouldn't make it unappealing, go shoot a match, it will be fine. It can certainly be better and if IDPA took the customer seriously it would be.




Is video review even allowed to be considered by an RO? In USPSA, I think the only review process is arbitration and where they poll the squad members on the call (where I think video review is specifically prohibited). Can you use video to review a call in IDPA?

I'm not sure I would bother with video for cover calls and I suspect all other calls are less frequent.

JV_
02-24-2014, 08:59 AM
This thread shouldn't make it unappealing, go shoot a match, it will be fine. Agreed.

If you find yourself around a group of complaining people, find another group. Complaining and negativity is contagious, don't get sucked in.

I don't like all of the rules, but I still like shooting IDPA matches. Hang out with the folks that are glad to be there, understand that we're all shooting by the same rules, and watch the clueful folks for tips.

cclaxton
02-24-2014, 09:01 AM
I wanted to try competition this year as a way to improve my defensive shooting skills (as opposed to trying to win) , and wasn't interested in the pure game aspects of USPSA , so IDPA appealed to me. This thread helped make it unappealing. With regards to the notion that vests aren't realistic, my friend who is a Federal agent wears a 5.11 vest to conceal his gear when a regular jacket would be too warm and has no idea what IDPA is.

Hopeton, the only way to know is to try it for yourself. None of this matters once the buzzer goes off....getting practice shooting challenging courses of fire is always a good thing as long as we are being safe. Don't knock it until you try it. IDPA is more new shooter friendly IMHO.

Regarding your Federal Agent friend: Many LEO's do the minimum qualifications and nothing more and that includes Federal officers. I personally know 5 Federal Agents who shoot IDPA, two of them good friends. There is a perception that LEO's are "gun and shooting experts" just because they carry one....many are not.

Also, IDPA is a good place to talk to more experienced shooters about equipment, ammo, shooting tips, concealed carry, and other gun-related topics.
Cody

JAD
02-24-2014, 10:26 AM
Cody, I think hopeton's point about his friend was that real people wear vests.

PPGMD
02-24-2014, 10:34 AM
I wanted to try competition this year as a way to improve my defensive shooting skills (as opposed to trying to win) , and wasn't interested in the pure game aspects of USPSA , so IDPA appealed to me. This thread helped make it unappealing. With regards to the notion that vests aren't realistic, my friend who is a Federal agent wears a 5.11 vest to conceal his gear when a regular jacket would be too warm and has no idea what IDPA is.

If you want to improve your defensive shooting skills, take a quality Force on Force class.

If you want to test your shooting ability, then shoot competition.

Too many people, mostly IDPA shooters, deride USPSA as being a game thus is useless. I disagree, it is a lot easier for someone to learn tactics then it is to gain skill.

And to paraphrase Caleb, "If you can't tell the difference between competition shooting, and the real world defensive that person shouldn't be doing either."