Just when you thought that IDPA was done with the stupid ideas...

[cclaxton]

Cody, I think hopeton's point about his friend was that real people wear vests.
:D
I wear a black Columbia Vest and a Rancher-Style insulated oilskin vest in the winter and sometimes a lightweight vest in the summer. I rarely wear a tactical vest though the pockets are very convenient. Unbuttoned cover shirt is the norm.
Cody

[cclaxton]

Too many people, mostly IDPA shooters, deride USPSA as being a game thus is useless. I disagree, it is a lot easier for someone to learn tactics then it is to gain skill.

I shoot an IDPA match at least two weekends a month and a sanctioned match on average about once a month. And, I have shot at matches from Florida to Massachusetts. I have NEVER heard an IDPA shooter call USPSA "useless."...Never. I have never heard an IDPA shooter "deride" USPSA either. The worst I have personally ever heard USPSA called was "The Other shooting sport." The number one reason that shooters have told me they don't shoot USPSA is that they like IDPA and don't have enough time and money to compete in both sports. On the other hand I have heard many IDPA shooters refer to the achievements of IDPA shooters in USPSA. When one regular IDPA shooter made USPSA Grand Master, it was mentioned at the local IDPA Match briefing and everyone applauded and congratulated him. When a USPSA Master shooter went to the Carolina Cup and took Division Champion, his closest competitors came up and congratulated him and everyone applauded when he took the trophy. Most people I know who are competing at the Expert or Master level are shooting both sports (and other sports, as well.)

Any animosity between the sports is contrived IMHO.
Cody

[orionz06]

I would agree that most of it is contrived and would echo almost the same comments among IDPA and uspsa locally among the shooters it interact with. The biggest factor for picking one is time and IDPA around here takes a bit longer.

That said among the keyed in shooters there are more rules gripes about IDPA, largely because it could be better and actions and responses to feedback do not indicate an upward trend. All parties griping play the game anyway.

[PPGMD]

I shoot an IDPA match at least two weekends a month and a sanctioned match on average about once a month. And, I have shot at matches from Florida to Massachusetts. I have NEVER heard an IDPA shooter call USPSA "useless."...Never. I have never heard an IDPA shooter "deride" USPSA either.


Any animosity between the sports is contrived IMHO.


Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

[_JD_]

I've seen some IDPA people deride USPSA, the most notable example us our areas former MD who was also a former USPSA Shootet. This case is extreme as he's pretty much a douce that had burned bridges with both sets of shooters. They are out there but it is not the norm. The reverse of that is also true.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

[PPGMD]

Someone asked about IDPA Procedurals vs USPSA penalties.

Well someone took a look at the Indoor Nationals scores, and came to the number that 74% of shooters got at least one procedural.

I am willing to bet that less than 10% of shooters get a penalties at a national USPSA level match.

[BN]

Well someone took a look at the Indoor Nationals scores, and came to the number that 74% of shooters got at least one procedural.


Be interesting to see how many of those were "Traveling". ;)

[orionz06]

I would be more interested in a breakdown of what they were...

[PPGMD]

I would be more interested in a breakdown of what they were...

Unless things are different at the nationals, I doubt that we would ever get a definitive break down. The best we could hope for is the ROs giving you a general idea what was awarded to the shooters.

[VolGrad]

Agreed. I don't like all of the rules, but I still like shooting IDPA matches. Hang out with the folks that are glad to be there, understand that we're all shooting by the same rules, and watch the clueful folks for tips.At my club this generally means stay away from the "shirts". Most were store bought anyway. These guys usually suck the fun right out and drag the stages on way longer than they need to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cclaxton]

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
This falls under the category of you can't prove a negative. You made it sound like IDPA and its members generally view USPSA as "useless," and that is just plain false, and you made it sound like IDPA and its members generally deride USPSA, and that is just plain false. There are always going to be some people in the margins who have an axe to grind, and are going to gripe. But again that is a contrived position, and not one that is natural and normal to IDPA Staff or members.

I really think we should get away from this line of discussion as it is pretty transparent that you don't like IDPA and refuse to shoot it. Okay. Can we now move on?
Cody

[JV_]

Okay. Can we now move on?You're equally free to move on to another thread. Don't feel obligated to participate in every IDPA thread, bowing out is an acceptable course of action.

[cclaxton]

Someone asked about IDPA Procedurals vs USPSA penalties.

Well someone took a look at the Indoor Nationals scores, and came to the number that 74% of shooters got at least one procedural.

I am willing to bet that less than 10% of shooters get a penalties at a national USPSA level match.

This is starting to get kinda ridiculous. Penalties are a part of the sport, just like penalties are a part of baseball and football. The way the two games are played are dramatically different when it comes to penalties and rules for cover. These were 13 top-level very challenging stages. The top three shooters in SSP and ESP got ZERO penalties and that is because they are fastest and most accurate shooters so they can afford to watch their cover. The rest of us are trying to go as fast as we can and we make mistakes, especially at a National Championship. USPSA is a DIFFERENT SPORT...isn't that the point you have been making?

Your dislike for IDPA is noted...can we move on?
Cody

[Tamara]

"Traveling". ;)

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. :D

[PPGMD]

I really think we should get away from this line of discussion as it is pretty transparent that you don't like IDPA and refuse to shoot it. Okay. Can we now move on?

Do I have to dig out my IDPA membership card? It only expired in October.

I was actually hopeful that the Tiger Teams were going to fix things. I still think that IDPA is fixable, just not under the current leadership.

[BaiHu]

I will say this: a) this has been enlightening, b) I'm beginning to understand the gripe and hyperbole about penalties and c) I'll attempt to try IDPA and sign someone else's name on the pledge :-P

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[cclaxton]

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. :D
I laughed...it is funny.
Cody

[cclaxton]

I will say this: a) this has been enlightening, b) I'm beginning to understand the gripe and hyperbole about penalties and c) I'll attempt to try IDPA and sign someone else's name on the pledge :-P

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk
They barely look at the signatures on those things...you could sign Benjamin Franklin and they wouldn't notice.
Cody

[jetfire]

I would be more interested in a breakdown of what they were...

I saw two procedurals at the match on the SSR/CDP Super Squad. One was for a pretty obvious cover violation that even I would have called, and the other was for not shooting while retreating. I probably wouldn't have called the latter.

[PPGMD]

They barely look at the signatures on those things...you could sign Benjamin Franklin and they wouldn't notice.

Well the courts have decide that signed a document as Flounder is not legally binding:

Kevin never signed the new agreement, and Freedom Group should have known better than to consider the word “flounder” as Kevin’s official signature on an important document. The judge described it as an act of defiance and not a binding signature.

[ToddG]

This is starting to get kinda ridiculous. Penalties are a part of the sport, just like penalties are a part of baseball and football.

That was my first thought, too. IDPA is a different sport.

I bet more people get penalties in USPSA for shooting with one foot outside a shooting box than do in IDPA. Whoa!

[jetfire]

I will say this: a) this has been enlightening, b) I'm beginning to understand the gripe and hyperbole about penalties and c) I'll attempt to try IDPA and sign someone else's name on the pledge :-P

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

The pledge was unique to this match and is not an IDPA document.

[BN]

Well the courts have decide that signed a document as Flounder is not legally binding:

I think I still have to pay when the kids scribble something as my signature on the credit card thingy at the grocery store. ;)

[NEPAKevin]

I was actually hopeful that the Tiger Teams were going to fix things. I still think that IDPA is fixable, just not under the current leadership.

I was trying to think where I heard this sentiment before. Then it hit me, change Tiger Teams to Democrats, and and IDPA to health care...

[PPGMD]

I bet more people get penalties in USPSA for shooting with one foot outside a shooting box than do in IDPA. Whoa!

True, but they don't have to give a per a shot penalty if they feel you gained no competitive advantage.

But is IDPA more about the shooting, or who follows the rules the best? :p

Just pulling your leg since people ask is "USPSA more about shooting, or who games the stage the best?"

[cclaxton]

Do I have to dig out my IDPA membership card? It only expired in October.

I was actually hopeful that the Tiger Teams were going to fix things. I still think that IDPA is fixable, just not under the current leadership.
I think we are getting somewhere. Every sport or participatory event comes with its' problems and its' value/assets. Each of us has our own tolerance for the problems. In my view IDPA still has great value, and that is what I was trying to say in my post from the S&W Match. When I talk to other members and MD's and even Regional Coordinators, they all say the same thing: "IDPA is still worth shooting even with the annoyances." The vast majority of clubs and members are saying the same thing. There have been some clubs that dropped out and some members, but the membership is still growing even with the dropouts. Leadership changes are not going to be enabled by throwing tomatoes from the outside, but by reasoned and respectful conversations from the inside. I have firsthand experience with that working.
Cody

[ToddG]

But is IDPA more about the shooting, or who follows the rules the best? :p

No argument from me there. I've said repeatedly, IDPA is about shooting DRILLS. It's a lot harder to make a procedural error when procedure is dictated.

And I'd bet that a significant percentage of penalties in IDPA come from use of cover which doesn't even exist in USPSA further invalidating the comparison.

[PPGMD]

Leadership changes are not going to be enabled by throwing tomatoes from the outside, but by reasoned and respectful conversations from the inside. I have firsthand experience with that working.

I don't believe that IDPA leadership is changeable from within anymore. At least not while Joyce Wilson and the current BODs head it.

[PPGMD]

And I'd bet that a significant percentage of penalties in IDPA come from use of cover which doesn't even exist in USPSA further invalidating the comparison.

I agree, and I disagree. USPSA doesn't have the imaginary lines for shooting around "cover."

USPSA has hard fault lines. Earlier when the person asked about USPSA penalty counts vs IDPA procedural counts I mentioned that I have gotten a few USPSA penalties. Just going by memory all but one (the remaining was a late shot on a par time stage) was due to me stepping over the fault line when shooting around "cover."

[ToddG]

OK, but I still think that's apples and oranges.

You can see, hard and fast, where the fault line is.

You cannot see, hard and fast, where an SO is going to determine a cover call will be made.

That's part of the IDPA game. It's the difference between calling balls & strikes and calling whether a tennis ball was in or out. You can make mistakes in both but one has a hard fast line you're supposed to see, the other is an imaginary box in the mind of a subjective decision-maker. And IDPA SOs are local ball field umpires, not MLB-trained pros.

[cclaxton]

In a real gunfight there is no line on the floor or 1x1 piece of wood that tells us where to stand. IDPA wants us to practice finding that invisible cover line (it's not imaginary...it is there...we just can't see it). I am not a fan of hard cover lines for this reason and it limits course designs. However, where I will give KSTG great credit here is penalizing muzzles being pushed past cover. Todd has convinced me that crowding cover is a bad idea tactically and certainly pushing your pistol past cover would be as well in most cases. So, I support giving MD's the option to require muzzle behind the plane of cover on selected COF. I don't recommend making it a rule across the whole sport because I want to see MD's have maximum flexibility with COF design. If we added this we would still be subject to the ruling by a "local club umpire" and not professional umpires. (Although I would argue that most of the SO's at National level matches are working at a professional level...just not for pay.)

Cody

[PPGMD]

In a real gunfight there is no line on the floor or 1x1 piece of wood that tells us where to stand. IDPA wants us to practice finding that invisible cover line (it's not imaginary...it is there...we just can't see it). I am not a fan of hard cover lines for this reason and it limits course designs.

Are we going to argue real gun fights?

I thought IDPA was a game. :p

[jetfire]

And IDPA SOs are local ball field umpires, not MLB-trained pros.

This is actually a really important distinction to make.

In the past four years, I've shot 8 national level IDPA matches. None of the SOs at IDPA matches are professionals in the sense that being an IDPA safety officer is their vocation. Like volunteer umpires in baseball, their level of skill and dedication as an SO varies based on their motivation for being an SO. The best ones are the guys who are passionate about the sport, dedicated shooters themselves and want to make sure they call the rules fairly for all shooters across the board.

[PPGMD]

This is actually a really important distinction to make.

In the past four years, I've shot 8 national level IDPA matches. None of the SOs at IDPA matches are professionals in the sense that being an IDPA safety officer is their vocation. Like volunteer umpires in baseball, their level of skill and dedication as an SO varies based on their motivation for being an SO. The best ones are the guys who are passionate about the sport, dedicated shooters themselves and want to make sure they call the rules fairly for all shooters across the board.

I will say that having a third person act as cover SO, might help things a bit. But it still isn't entirely objective unless someone can build some sort of augmented reality contraption for the SO. Which actually would be real cool.

But OTOH it just isn't practical at many lower level matches. As adding a third person to a sanctioned match means adding another 10-15 people to staff. At local matches it means that the optimal squad size jumps to 15.

[cclaxton]

I will say that having a third person act as cover SO, might help things a bit. But it still isn't entirely objective unless someone can build some sort of augmented reality contraption for the SO. Which actually would be real cool. But OTOH it just isn't practical at many lower level matches. As adding a third person to a sanctioned match means adding another 10-15 people to staff. At local matches it means that the optimal squad size jumps to 15.

With technology it may be possible to make the cover calls objective years from now. But until then it takes humans...at least we are still good for something...making judgments.

This will be my year to be MD and I plan to use a squad member to make cover calls. We already use squad members to be scorekeepers when needed. It has the dual-purpose of having them learn how to watch for cover and hopefully they can use that as feedback for themselves.
Cody

[ToddG]

This will be my year to be MD and I plan to use a squad member to make cover calls. We already use squad members to be scorekeepers when needed. It has the dual-purpose of having them learn how to watch for cover and hopefully they can use that as feedback for themselves.

So each squad has a different person making cover calls, and each squad has at least two people within the squad (because he can't call his own when it's his turn) making cover calls?? That sounds chaotic in terms of keeping the cover calls consistent for each person at a match...

[cclaxton]

So each squad has a different person making cover calls, and each squad has at least two people within the squad (because he can't call his own when it's his turn) making cover calls?? That sounds chaotic in terms of keeping the cover calls consistent for each person at a match...

Yeah, I thought of that too. But we already rotate the Scorekeeper and the Primary SO, so why not the "Cover SO?"
I am going to try it and see how it works out. I think it will work. When we do steel matches with plates that don't fall we designate a person to call HITS on the steel plates and that rotates for each shooter on the squad.

I will let you know....why don't you come out the Thurmont and watch?
Cody

[LostDuke]

Having shot the Nationals and being familiar with the facility, a couple of observations.

On the facility and so indirectly the document we had to sign. S&W was a thriving public range and regular matches were held there. Then a chain of event led to its closure and transformation into a non revenue generating employees lounge. Two people went there rented a gun and committed suicide in the range. Then gang members responsible of a drive by shooting were found having used the range for practicing before going to shoot their rivals.

These events rattled their corporate lawyers and C officers enough that the range was shut down and remained closed for almost a year. Regular matches, albeit promised several times, have not resumed yet and many doubt they ever will. This is very bad for IDPA in that area, because this was the best facility by orders of magnitude. There was also an accident at the Hartford gun club which ended in bitter litigation and the end of matches at the second best facility in the surroundings.

I signed the documents without even reading past the word "waiver" so I had no idea of its contents but I can understand most of it because of the highly sensitivity of the owners of the location. If S&W drops it's support, there is nowhere else to go in New England for the Winter Nationals (at least indoor) so I think it's more than a simple "who pays the piper pays calls the tune". If that place goes, we have nowhere else to go, plain and simple.

Also, some of the people organizing the Nationals are still involved in the litigation I mentioned at considerable personal cost, so I can understand they are also hyper prudent. In the end, I shall continue to not read waivers and swear profusely unless I shoot with children, not caring is loving at times when IDPA is concerned.

On the match. I found the last minute modification of the rules completely unacceptable; uncalled for, arbitrary and arrogant. It sets a bad precedent and solidifies the mentality of some SO's who have told me in person " I don't care if it is not in the rule book, if I say so".

The match itself was evenly managed, nothing to gripe about. My personal opinion is that it's biggest limitation was that this match was impossible to complete well for the average shooter. I enjoyed the NE Regionals way more because they were challenging for all but feasible in a decent way for an average person.

The chrono station was odd, I can understand people won their appeal. I won't elaborate because everybody knows me in that area so I don't want to make enemies.

I found the church based theme distasteful, not everybody is a Christian and it's not difficult to find alternate scenarios.

It was a good match, not extraordinary not awful. Quite a few stages resembled a little or a lot stages at the BUG nationals.

On USPSA: all the top IDPA shooters I know - and I know them all - in the area not only shoot it regularly, but advertise it as "way more fun" than IDPA itself. Never heard a single person bad mouth USPSA, ever. Let's not forget the alternative is a vacuum cleaner on Sundays, I think that perspective is always helpful in life.

I did poorly because my mind could not overcome a painful injury I am suffering from, and came back with the strong intention to become better at mind conditioning techniques because I saw myself melting in a mind-body negative loop which was interesting to experience. The only catch is that I don't know where to start on mind conditioning, will start looking around.

[JV_]

I signed the documents without even reading past the word "waiver" so I had no idea of its contentsWhy would you sign documents without reading them?

[GJM]

Thanks for this informative post on the match and background on the S&W range.

As a side note, this sort of stuff is why CT, MA and the east coast from DC up is not a shooter friendly locale. Politicians don't like guns, or shooters, and use any bad event to try to further limit the shooting sports. Out west, if a gang banger used an indoor range, the reaction would be outrage at the gang, as opposed to actions targeting law abiding shooters.

Why is IDPA using MA as a location for this match, is there no other facility in a gun friendly state?

[LostDuke]

In a real gunfight there is no line on the floor or 1x1 piece of wood that tells us where to stand. IDPA wants us to practice finding that invisible cover line (it's not imaginary...it is there...we just can't see it). I am not a fan of hard cover lines for this reason....
Cody

Please please don't go there. The "real gunfight" hat IDPA people wear and take off when it's convenient looks to me like those cheese hat people wear in Wisconsin, and I say it only because I don't know anybody at all from WI, please don't be offended you look -well-unique."

At least there they wear it with self irony, you guys are just using it a rhetoric tool when convenient.

My suggestion, based on my Army experience, is to walk a tad faster than you have learnt in IDPA matches when people are trying to ruin your day by shooting at you. Because you know in a real real real gunfight you would end up looking a lot like the holes in the above mentioned cheese hats. You don't want your last words to be "But I was moving!"

[LostDuke]

Why would you sign documents without reading them?

Same reason my wife catches me occasionally answering yes to to the question "how was your funeral yesterday"?

[ToddG]

IDPA missionaries like you

Discuss issues, not one another.

[LostDuke]

Apology is due and given in good spirit.

[LostDuke]

Please please don't go there. The "real gunfight" hat IDPA people wear and take off when it's convenient looks to me like those cheese hat people wear in Wisconsin, and I say it only because I don't know anybody at all from WI, please don't be offended you look -well-unique."

At least there they wear it with self irony, you guys are just using it a rhetoric tool when convenient.

My suggestion, based on my Army experience, is to walk a tad faster than you have learnt in IDPA matches when people are trying to ruin your day by shooting at you. Because you know in a real real real gunfight you would end up looking a lot like the holes in the above mentioned cheese hats. You don't want your last words to be "But I was moving!"

[PPGMD]

Why is IDPA using MA as a location for this match, is there no other facility in a gun friendly state?

I am sure that there are facilities in Florida, Texas, New Mexico, and other Southern states that would gladly put on a major national level match in the winter.

On the USPSA side there have been two major matches this year, both in Florida.

[jetfire]

I am sure that there are facilities in Florida, Texas, New Mexico, and other Southern states that would gladly put on a major national level match in the winter.

On the USPSA side there have been two major matches this year, both in Florida.

Because none of those places have the S&W Shooting Center.

[cclaxton]

Please please don't go there. My suggestion, based on my Army experience, is to walk a tad faster than you have learnt in IDPA matches when people are trying to ruin your day by shooting at you. Because you know in a real real real gunfight you would end up looking a lot like the holes in the above mentioned cheese hats. You don't want your last words to be "But I was moving!"
Duke, don't get me wrong here. I am not suggesting that IDPA is like a real gunfight. But we are trying to build certain fundamental skills so that they are more automatic. Being able to pick a good place for cover when paper targets are shooting at you is one that IDPA allows us to practice. And, for this particular skill to be automatic, I think it's better there is no line drawn on the ground, or wood stopping us (unless needed for safety). But I also would love to see a way to get shooters from crowding cover and pushing their muzzle past cover as in KSTG. (I have some COF ideas....)
Cody

[cclaxton]

I am sure that there are facilities in Florida, Texas, New Mexico, and other Southern states that would gladly put on a major national level match in the winter.

I agree with Caleb here...the S&W Shooting Center and HQ is unique and the State gives them incentives to stay.
I think we are missing the main point here. On my squad there were 4 shooters who were from NH, Mass, and Conn. This is the ONLY sanctioned match other than the NH match that they attend. When you look at the situation with IDPA in Conn and Mass, if S&W moved or if the Indoor Nationals were held someplace outside the NE, there would be very few matches left in those states for IDPA and USPSA members to shoot. The two guys from NH told me they don't go as far as NY or NJ. We should continue to keep matches in these states to support shooting sports in those states. Also, politically it makes more sense to have a presence in those states so that we can "stand our ground" against further encroachments on shooting sports. To expect all firearms companies, firearms owners and competitive shooters to move out of those states is unrealistic.
Cody

[PPGMD]

Because none of those places have the S&W Shooting Center.

No but they have numerous excellent ranges, many with good host clubs.

Or are you saying that IDPA only cares about the almighty dollar? And that S&W is one of the biggest sponsors, so they get their own S&W match with IDPA branding, who cares if they do stupid stuff because they are in an anti-gun state?

[PPGMD]

This is the ONLY sanctioned match other than the NH match that they attend.

If this were a regional or state match you would have a point.

But this is proclaimed as a national match, the region where it is held shouldn't matter, it should be the best location to hold the match, not based on which sponsor owns the IDPA.

If the location where the match is held is causing issues (like the hosts wanting to make up their own rules, and adding stupid COCs), then perhaps it is time to move the match.

[ST911]

These events rattled their corporate lawyers and C officers enough that the range was shut down and remained closed for almost a year. Regular matches, albeit promised several times, have not resumed yet and many doubt they ever will. This is very bad for IDPA in that area, because this was the best facility by orders of magnitude. There was also an accident at the Hartford gun club which ended in bitter litigation and the end of matches at the second best facility in the surroundings.

Is there something legit about the continued closure, or are people too busy wringing their hands to unlock the doors?

[jetfire]

No but they have numerous excellent ranges, many with good host clubs.

Or are you saying that IDPA only cares about the almighty dollar? And that S&W is one of the biggest sponsors, so they get their own S&W match with IDPA branding, who cares if they do stupid stuff because they are in an anti-gun state?

IDPA is a business, and such they should make decisions that are in the best interests of the business. It's also worth noting that despite all the internet crying about this and that, the only shooting sport that's growing faster than IDPA is 3-Gun. Which is also a business.

[Mr_White]

I've been away from this thread for a few days and it doubled in size!


Every single time I've been to a USPSA match I've shot it from concealment and every single time I've been hassled -- from a little teasing to having the MD called to "verify this is safe" -- by at least some of the ROs. I've had ROs tell me that I should be shooting the stages differently because I do things like engage from cover instead of running into free fire zones. Etc. So actually, it's kind of annoying to go to the "shoot it however you want" game and get put upon because I'm not there to play like they do.

That is really a bummer. I think you mentioned this when you were out here for AFHF in 2012. It must be a regional thing. I certainly can't claim to have experience in USPSA outside my region. But I can't even begin to describe how helpful, nice, and welcoming everyone in USPSA here has been to me, an obstinate self-defense guy, as well as the approximately eight self-defense/tactical shooters I have brought out to USPSA, some of whom shot their carry gear from concealment. I've seen at least one post from Chuck Anderson, our Area Director, suggesting that people who want to shoot USPSA 'realistically' and using tactics, are more than welcome to do so.


it is a lot easier for someone to learn tactics then it is to gain skill

I've definitely found that to be true in my own personal experience. And it's an interesting point, and one that I've heard echoed about the relative ease of taking a tactical guy with little technical skill vs. a highly skilled combat athlete who has no tactics, and making them into an ECQC monster.

[ToddG]

I've seen at least one post from Chuck Anderson, our Area Director, suggesting that people who want to shoot USPSA 'realistically' and using tactics, are more than welcome to do so.

I'm about 75% convinced to shoot Lim from concealment later this year. I'm at least going to renew my membership and give it a go. And certain parts of the internet will enjoy greatly when I finally get classified and I'm a B or something. :cool:

[TheRoland]

When you look at the situation with IDPA in Conn and Mass, if S&W moved or if the Indoor Nationals were held someplace outside the NE, there would be very few matches left in those states for IDPA and USPSA members to shoot.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but just some clarification here. MA has NE Regionals and MA State and Area 7 (USPSA) which are really fantastic matches. Maybe better than S&W.

NH actually has less matches and has had years with nobody to run a real state match until recently. This drought appears mostly over, luckily.

The shooting community in the area is pretty substantial despite the laws.

[LostDuke]

Is there something legit about the continued closure, or are people too busy wringing their hands to unlock the doors?

Not sure what you mean by legit, it's their property they can use it as they see fit. That said, the closure of the public range is final. Even the room where they held CC classes is now a gym. As for regular non sanctioned matches, your guess is as good as mine, I have heard reassurances several times followed by emails saying "for the time being, no matches".

From a lawyer's perspective, the potential liability has to be weighted against the $20 match fee a shooter pays. A regular match brings no publicity, no money to speak of, only potential hassle. They can keep their good name with the nationals and be done with the risk. I am not optimistic on this place becoming something other that a twice a year affair, and who knows for how long.

[JMS]

I'm about 75% convinced to shoot Lim from concealment later this year.

Doooo eeeeeeet....

punkey71 and I did that the last two matches this past year, down here in Fredericksburg. Nobody batted an eye, but be prepared for 15min of yammering during the range brief from some dusty old fart that has a big enough bug up his bum about "round-jacking" to let the match start late....

[ToddG]

punkey71 and I did that the last two matches this past year, down here in Fredericksburg.

That and Peacemaker are likely where I'd shoot. I'm probably "protected" at Peacemaker because plenty of their own team knows me. Maybe I'll just have to edge into your squad at F'burg so I can hide amongst my brethren if you don't mind...

[JMS]

Doooo eeeeet!!

I mean, since LL's not provided me any performance to chase, since EVER....

(And, thus, are the first volleys of the 2014 Smack-Talk Debacle launched.)

[Matt O]

That and Peacemaker are likely where I'd shoot. I'm probably "protected" at Peacemaker because plenty of their own team knows me. Maybe I'll just have to edge into your squad at F'burg so I can hide amongst my brethren if you don't mind...

I'm planning on getting into USPSA at Peacemaker this year, so you can count on at least one more person there who will make your score look that much better. ;)

[Mr_White]

I'm about 75% convinced to shoot Lim from concealment later this year. I'm at least going to renew my membership and give it a go. And certain parts of the internet will enjoy greatly when I finally get classified and I'm a B or something. :cool:

I think it would be great if you did that. Get what you can from it - mostly technical skills pushing and testing under whatever stress you feel - and don't expect from it what it won't be able to give.

And with the SIG, you can shoot Limited, instead of Limited-10, right? That will help maintain continuity with your normal gear by letting you run around with less extra magazines.

Don't even get me started on classifiers and classifications. I have so much mental baggage already. ;)

Who knows how you will classify. It's really hard to say. I do think that regardless of how you classify, people will respect the fact that you put yourself out there to participate in the public measuring, ranking, and judging that is the act of competition.

[PPGMD]

I'm about 75% convinced to shoot Lim from concealment later this year. I'm at least going to renew my membership and give it a go. And certain parts of the internet will enjoy greatly when I finally get classified and I'm a B or something. :cool:

Well since you are in the public eye it might be different. As an unrepentant gamer, sandbag sandbag sandbag.

[ToddG]

I'm planning on getting into USPSA at Peacemaker this year, so you can count on at least one more person there who will make your score look that much better. ;)

Not if you're shooting a CZ. I heard they make for instant win. :cool:

I've got absolutely no idea how well I'll shoot this year and don't anticipate one way or the other. But getting back into some competition will hopefully be fun for its own sake.


And with the SIG, you can shoot Limited, instead of Limited-10, right? That will help maintain continuity with your normal gear by letting you run around with less extra magazines.

Yes, my plan would be to shoot Limited (minor) from my EDC setup. Ideally that means two spare mags (total 50rd) will be enough. If not, I'll just DNF stages.

[TheTrevor]

I'm about 75% convinced to shoot Lim from concealment later this year. I'm at least going to renew my membership and give it a go. And certain parts of the internet will enjoy greatly when I finally get classified and I'm a B or something. :cool:

I know that I would find it hugely amusing and totally surreal if you and I both classified B this year, as that's what I'm going for.

One of us would be far more likely to hear people mumbling "sandbagging" under their breath, though... Oh, look, it's already started down-thread. :)

[TheTrevor]

Not if you're shooting a CZ. I heard they make for instant win. :cool:

I've got absolutely no idea how well I'll shoot this year and don't anticipate one way or the other. But getting back into some competition will hopefully be fun for its own sake.



Yes, my plan would be to shoot Limited (minor) from my EDC setup. Ideally that means two spare mags (total 50rd) will be enough. If not, I'll just DNF stages.

There's always the back-pocket emergency 3rd reload mag to let you finish the stage. Just sayin'.

[ToddG]

There's always the back-pocket emergency 3rd reload mag to let you finish the stage. Just sayin'.

Defeats the whole purpose for me. I want to go practice what I actually do, not go practice what the game says I should do for moar points!

[Mr_White]

Yes, my plan would be to shoot Limited (minor) from my EDC setup. Ideally that means two spare mags (total 50rd) will be enough. If not, I'll just DNF stages.

I run my normal two spare mags in Limited and rarely get to even the second magazine. 50 rounds should definitely be enough to complete stages.

[PPGMD]

One of us would be far more likely to hear people mumbling "sandbagging" under their breath, though... Oh, look, it's already started down-thread. :)

Hey sandbagging is a legitimate strategy. Though to be honest, there typically no benefit for winning your class at most matches. At most USPSA matches prizes are for either order of finish overall, or given to the division champion, class winners just get a piece of wood.

Now with NRA Action Pistol there is money involved in sandbagging, OTOH since you classification is based directly on your match performance, it is hard to really sandbag.

[ToddG]

I run my normal two spare mags in Limited and rarely get to even the second magazine. 50 rounds should definitely be enough to complete stages.

Yeah but I'll probably need a lot more makeup shots. Plus because I'm Tactical I need to suppress fire as I go around each corner.

[PPGMD]

I run my normal two spare mags in Limited and rarely get to even the second magazine. 50 rounds should definitely be enough to complete stages.

Particularly if you shoot to slide lock. I carry 51 rounds in production, and the only time I need my fourth mag is if I drop a mag or my reload points result in too many rounds on the ground (happens more at revolver friendly matches where everything comes in groups of six).

[PPGMD]

Yeah but I'll probably need a lot more makeup shots. Plus because I'm Tactical I need to suppress fire as I go around each corner.

SUPPRESSING FIRE!

http://i.imgur.com/MnYLmWo.gif

[Mr_White]

Plus because I'm Tactical I need to suppress fire as I go around each corner.

Now this is an idea I can get behind. :D

[ToddG]

Now this is an idea I can get behind. :D

I'm also going to give three seconds of verbal warnings to each target before engaging on all Classifiers.

Also, what is sandbagging?

[PPGMD]

Also, what is sandbagging?

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/K9Thefirst1/Not_sure_if_serious-Joker_zps0903da50.jpg

[Mr_White]

I'm also going to give three seconds of verbal warnings to each target before engaging on all Classifiers.

Also, what is sandbagging?

That is a good idea too. I myself am waiting to see what happens if my gun breaks down and I get out a knife and cut the targets after yelling 'You suck! I'm gonna cut you!"

Sandbagging is when, during the last shot or two of your run on a Classifier, you think you have not shot well enough to improve your percentage, so you keep shooting to add extra time, or do a mag dump into a no-shoot or something, so you score is too low and gets thrown out.

But you should probably not do that while earning your initial classification because most of those scores will count. Unless you already have a classification...

[TheTrevor]

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/K9Thefirst1/Not_sure_if_serious-Joker_zps0903da50.jpg

Oh, bravo. I usually use the Futurama meme pic but this one is marvelous.

[ToddG]

Sorry, I was joking about the sandbagging thing. It's one reason the FAST/Classifier is required as a stage at any "sanctioned" KSTG match (if such a thing ever happens) and why your classification can go up during the match if you do well on the FAST... if you want to sandbag your class you have to take a hit to your overall score.

[PPGMD]

Oh, bravo. I usually use the Futurama meme pic but this one is marvelous.

I use Futurama occasionally. Typically the "Oh wait you're serious," "I see what you did there," or the classic "Shut up and take my money."

I try to work in Archer as much as I can, but not too many people have made Archer meme pics.

[PPGMD]

That is a good idea too. I myself am waiting to see what happens if my gun breaks down and I get out a knife and cut the targets after yelling 'You suck! I'm gonna cut you!"

Just don't throw your gun at the target, that will get you kicked out, even at NTI.

[ToddG]

Speaking of memes, and completely taking responsibility for this whole mess...

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/11/116689/2144605-threadjack.jpg

Let's please get back to discussing IDPA.

[PPGMD]

Deleted, might be interpreted wrong.

[LostDuke]

.....

Let's please get back to discussing IDPA.

Todd, for those of us who have not joined the forum during the second Punic war, what were the reasons that drove you away from the nationals and IDPA in general?

[GJM]

Holy crap. A day away from PF, and Todd is going to be shooting USPSA. Can't wait to revisit dry firing, training methods, etc., in a year. 80/20 you will have a CZ by summer.

Oh, IDPA -- yeah, I really like IDPA, and always look for the "IDPA" approved words when I buy a new holster. I might move back to CT, so I can be nearer to MA.

[ToddG]

Todd, for those of us who have not joined the forum during the second Punic war, what were the reasons that drove you away from the nationals and IDPA in general?

I'd be shooting IDPA now if they allowed AIWB. There are all sorts of things I'm not crazy about in IDPA but I think it's much more my style than USPSA. But the only reason I shoot competition is to work my gear and my skill set and IDPA doesn't allow me to do that. There is a club nearby that lets folks shoot from aiwb "outlaw" not for score and I suspect I'll be doing those matches, as well.

I think if you read through this thread you'll see that I'm one of the more pro-IDPA folks.


Holy crap. A day away from PF, and Todd is going to be shooting USPSA. Can't wait to revisit dry firing, training methods, etc., in a year. 80/20 you will have a CZ by summer.

A dollar says you're wrong about the CZ. I'm committed to the SIG for at least 50k at this point. Now next year? Possibly, especially if one of the custom shops wanted to sponsor the guns. The biggest impediment continues to be my ability to reach the slide release lever dependably with my right thumb without shifting the gun, and I would absolutely require a DA/decocker version.

[GJM]

A dollar says you're wrong about the CZ. I'm committed to the SIG for at least 50k at this point. Now next year? Possibly, especially if one of the custom shops wanted to sponsor the guns. The biggest impediment continues to be my ability to reach the slide release lever dependably with my right thumb without shifting the gun, and I would absolutely require a DA/decocker version.

A dollar says if you try shooting a CZ for a few days you will feel differently. And, a P01 is a crazy shootable small gun for carry. Is Matt O near you? At the risk of incurring the wrath of the "same gun" gods, I can move between a Sig and CZ without missing a beat, because they are so similar in function, if different in shootability. :)

Here is my thought on the slide stop. In USPSA you better be reloading with the slide forward or you have screwed up. If you are gaming, like the FAST, you can choose to make the CZ auto forward at will. I have yet to induce a stoppage this way, and argue it is likely more reliable than using your strong thumb, due to the risk of inducing a problem with that method. As to "real world," if you were to really get to slide lock, you shift your grip and use the slide stop, use your support thumb, or slingshot. Of course having to slide lock reload would be so statistically unlikely, it will give you material for two or three blog posts on Pistol-Training.

[BaiHu]

At the very least, we can all enjoy watching a CZ be Riehlized :-D

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[cclaxton]

Holy crap. A day away from PF, and Todd is going to be shooting USPSA. Can't wait to revisit dry firing, training methods, etc., in a year. 80/20 you will have a CZ by summer.

Oh, IDPA -- yeah, I really like IDPA, and always look for the "IDPA" approved words when I buy a new holster. I might move back to CT, so I can be nearer to MA.
IDPA does not have a listing of pistols that may be shot in the sport....USPSA does. If it is not on the list, not legal to shoot in USPSA.
So, do they all have USPSA-approved stamped on them?
Cody

[jetfire]

IDPA does not have a listing of pistols that may be shot in the sport....USPSA does. If it is not on the list, not legal to shoot in USPSA.
So, do they all have USPSA-approved stamped on them?
Cody

Cody, IDPA used to maintain an "approved holster list" which is what GJM was talking about. For a time period, major holster manufacturers would market holsters as "IDPA approved" specifically because getting on the list would be a decent selling point for a pivot from competition to concealment.

[PPGMD]

IDPA does not have a listing of pistols that may be shot in the sport....USPSA does. If it is not on the list, not legal to shoot in USPSA.
So, do they all have USPSA-approved stamped on them?

No but the list is easy to find.

The USPSA approved production pistol list makes it easier for competitors, as they have similar production number requirements to IDPA.

You don't have to guess if random gun company has made 2,000 or 20,000 of your pistols. If it is approved that NROI has a manufacturer statement that they've made 2,000 of your pistol, and it is for sale to the general public.

Granted it is not without some controversy, many are of the opinion that FNH lied to the NROI that the FNS long slides were available to the general public. But the NROI doesn't have the power to audit gun company's, I've been telling my area director that we should change that. At the very least they should do a web search, if 2,000 of a new pistol are out in the wild there will be some evidence of it on the internet.

As an example of how an approved production list makes things easier. Lets say I show up at the S&W Indoor Nationals with a Tanfoglio Stock 3, there are about a handful in the United States but it has been available in Europe for a while. The MD might not have heard of that pistol, and might deem it illegal since he doesn't know of 2,000 out in the wild. At a USPSA match, the MD doesn't have that option, the NROI has made the determination based on manufacturer statements. Also the production list has the official weight which is used to make sure that no weight has been added to the gun by the competitor.

[cclaxton]

No but the list is easy to find. The USPSA approved production pistol list makes it easier for competitors, as they have similar production number requirements to IDPA. You don't have to guess if random gun company has made 2,000 or 20,000 of your pistols. If it is approved that NROI has a manufacturer statement that they've made 2,000 of your pistol, and it is for sale to the general public. Granted it is not without some controversy, many are of the opinion that FNH lied to the NROI that the FNS long slides were available to the general public. But the NROI doesn't have the power to audit gun company's, I've been telling my area director that we should change that. At the very least they should do a web search, if 2,000 of a new pistol are out in the wild there will be some evidence of it on the internet. As an example of how an approved production list makes things easier. Lets say I show up at the S&W Indoor Nationals with a Tanfoglio Stock 3, there are about a handful in the United States but it has been available in Europe for a while. The MD might not have heard of that pistol, and might deem it illegal since he doesn't know of 2,000 out in the wild. At a USPSA match, the MD doesn't have that option, the NROI has made the determination based on manufacturer statements. Also the production list has the official weight which is used to make sure that no weight has been added to the gun by the competitor.
I have never ever heard of a pistol being declared illegal at a sanctioned match with two exceptions: Guy showed up with firing pin block removed (DQ'd), Obvious illegal modifications such as Optics or porting, and a ESP-mod and the guy was trying to shoot SSP (i.e. mag well, stippling). I have seen some guns that didn't fit the box. If you showed up with a Tanfoglio Stock 3 as long as it fit the box and had all the safeties working and no obvious modifications, it would pass. Generally speaking any close calls will go to the shooter.

The original point was to try and make IDPA look silly because of the "approved holster" in the rules that have long been repealed. Any holster will work as long as it meets the requirements of covering the trigger, mounted behind the centerline and holds the gun so the grip is above he belt. The approved holster thing is ancient history.

Then when I point out that USPSA actually has a list of approved guns, that is somehow not silly.

I really don't understand why we have to continue debating USPSA v. IDPA...they are both valuable action shooting sports. No reason to make either one look silly.
Cody

[PPGMD]

I have never ever heard of a pistol being declared illegal at a sanctioned match...

Then when I point out that USPSA actually has a list of approved guns, that is somehow not silly.

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean that it can't happen. USPSA's use of the NROI approved production pistol list take the "I think" or "I've never heard of that pistol" out of the production numbers rule. Also it provides a certified weight for inspection stations to use to make sure that the competitors haven't added weight to the pistol.

Any MD can look at a holster and see if it meets the requirements. No MD has access to company statements, or databases on production numbers.

[Lomshek]

Then when I point out that USPSA actually has a list of approved guns, that is somehow not silly.

I really don't understand why we have to continue debating USPSA v. IDPA...they are both valuable action shooting sports. No reason to make either one look silly.
Cody

You may be aware of this but it's only in Production that guns must be on the list. The other divisions are far less restrictive and (besides revolver) come down to whether you want optics & comp or irons.

Agreed that both are valuable sports and both have some "silly" rules that can be debated all day. From what was said a few pages ago some of the contention here was due to requirements S&W wanted out of fear of bad PR.

[NEPAKevin]

But this is proclaimed as a national match, the region where it is held shouldn't matter, it should be the best location to hold the match, not based on which sponsor owns the IDPA.

If the location where the match is held is causing issues (like the hosts wanting to make up their own rules, and adding stupid COCs), then perhaps it is time to move the match.

They announced that 2015 IDPA World Championship will be held in Puerto Rico. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?47007-Gun-Rights-in-Puerto-Rico

[gtmtnbiker98]

You may be aware of this but it's only in Production that guns must be on the list. The other divisions are far less restrictive and (besides revolver) come down to whether you want optics & comp or irons.

Agreed that both are valuable sports and both have some "silly" rules that can be debated all day. From what was said a few pages ago some of the contention here was due to requirements S&W wanted out of fear of bad PR."The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth..."

[GJM]

The original point was to try and make IDPA look silly because of the "approved holster" in the rules that have long been repealed. Any holster will work as long as it meets the requirements of covering the trigger, mounted behind the centerline and holds the gun so the grip is above he belt. The approved holster thing is ancient history.



Now wait just a minute there, young man. How did you conclude the original point was to make IDPA look silly?

[TheRoland]

They announced that 2015 IDPA World Championship will be held in Puerto Rico. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?47007-Gun-Rights-in-Puerto-Rico

Well, MA is off the hook in terms of "most repressive place to hold a major match."

There's nothing else I can say about this.

[cclaxton]

Now wait just a minute there, young man. How did you conclude the original point was to make IDPA look silly?
Well then that is my mistake if that was not your intention. I apologize. I am not sure I am much younger than you, tho. I just turned 59.
Cody

[jetfire]

Well, MA is off the hook in terms of "most repressive place to hold a major match."

There's nothing else I can say about this.

PR has a very active IDPA community. The first IDPA World Championship in 2011 was in Florida, so to make it a proper World Shoot it should probably be held in other places of the world. Yes, I know PR is a US territory, but it's a start. I'd love to attend an IDPA World Shoot in Italy someday.

[GJM]

Well then that is my mistake if that was not your intention. I apologize. I am not sure I am much younger than you, tho. I just turned 59.
Cody

In this instance, I just wanted to talk about Todd's plan to start shooting USPSA. However, since he had just attempted to redirect the thread to IDPA, I figured I better add something about IDPA so I didn't get spanked. All I could remember about IDPA was something about "approved" holsters.

59 isn't old. Old is when you have to shoot "open" because you can't see any more.

[LSP972]

IDPA does not have a listing of pistols that may be shot in the sport....
Cody

But they have a list of prohibited guns. The first IDPA match I ever went to, they wouldn't let me shoot because the HK LEM was on the "disapproved" list. I was told the LEM was "unsafe" and some other total BS. I offered to let the MD shoot the stupid thing and show me how it was unsafe but, he refused, saying it was in the rules and it was holy writ, therefore...

Later, somebody in IDPA officialdom apparently actually put their hands on one and the ban was lifted.

All in all, it was rather retarded.

.

[LSP972]

59 isn't old. Old is when you have to shoot "open" because you can't see any more.

Yup. HK to the rescue; if you can't pick up those huge dots on the P30/HK45 sights, then its definitely RDS time.

.

[jetfire]

But they have a list of prohibited guns. The first IDPA match I ever went to, they wouldn't let me shoot because the HK LEM was on the "disapproved" list. I was told the LEM was "unsafe" and some other total BS. I offered to let the MD shoot the stupid thing and show me how it was unsafe but, he refused, saying it was in the rules and it was holy writ, therefore...

Later, somebody in IDPA officialdom apparently actually put their hands on one and the ban was lifted.

All in all, it was rather retarded.

.

IDPA does not have a list of prohibited guns. That is an incorrect statement.

[NEPAKevin]

IDPA does not have a list of prohibited guns. That is an incorrect statement.

Maybe there was some confusion with someone's understanding of the "non-inclusive list of prohibited modifications" for a specific division? But then again, I only have copies of rules back to the ones prior to the red-blue books. Maybe the original rules that according to IDPA lore were scrawled on the back of a bar napkin specifically banned cruchen-ticker wunder-nines?

[PPGMD]

Maybe there was some confusion with someone's understanding of the "non-inclusive list of prohibited modifications" for a specific division? But then again, I only have copies of rules back to the ones prior to the red-blue books. Maybe the original rules that according to IDPA lore were scrawled on the back of a bar napkin specifically banned cruchen-ticker wunder-nines?

There was supposed to be a no crunchtickers in CDP rule, but that didn't get transferred over to the final rule book. :p

[LSP972]

IDPA does not have a list of prohibited guns. That is an incorrect statement.

Okay; I guess my eyes were lying to me when I read it in the rule book (the on-line edition) the day after this occurred. It was in there plain as day; "HK LEM trigger not allowed." or words to that effect. And I was trying to enter Production, with a bone-stock USPc .45.

Now, if you want to argue semantics (and you do, it would seem), you can say that the GUN wasn't prohibited, just the trigger type. But if my gun has that trigger type… its prohibited.

And you wonder why few here are taking you seriously? BTW, just how long have you been involved in IDPA?

Edited to add a bit of information.

.

[TheRoland]

Okay; I guess my eyes were lying to me when I read it in the rule book (the on-line edition) the day after this occurred. It was in there plain as day; "HK LEM trigger not allowed." or words to that effect. And I was trying to enter Production, with a bone-stock USPc .45.

Now, if you want to argue semantics (and you do, it would seem), you can say that the GUN wasn't prohibited, just the trigger type. But if my gun has that trigger type… its prohibited.

And you wonder why few here are taking you seriously? BTW, just how long have you been involved in IDPA?

Edited to add a bit of information.

.

When was this? I don't see this in the current, 2005, 2001, 2000, or 1997 rule books, and am pretty sure LEM wasn't a thing before that.

You may be mistaken, although it's possible there's a rule book revision I don't have.


Edit: I just noticed you said Production. Are you confusing IDPA and USPSA? When LEM was shiny and new, it would have been excluded from USPSA Production.

[jetfire]

Okay; I guess my eyes were lying to me when I read it in the rule book (the on-line edition) the day after this occurred. It was in there plain as day; "HK LEM trigger not allowed." or words to that effect. And I was trying to enter Production, with a bone-stock USPc .45.

Now, if you want to argue semantics (and you do, it would seem), you can say that the GUN wasn't prohibited, just the trigger type. But if my gun has that trigger type… its prohibited.

And you wonder why few here are taking you seriously? BTW, just how long have you been involved in IDPA?

Edited to add a bit of information.

.

That's funny. I checked IDPA rulebooks dating back to 1997. Nowhere do any of them say "no LEM" in any way. Furthermore, IDPA doesn't have a division named Production.

Also, if you'd like to compare IDPA bona fides, we can do that to. I'm sure i'll find it hilarious.

[ToddG]

Also, if you'd like to compare IDPA bona fides, we can do that to. I'm sure i'll find it hilarious.

Discuss issues not each other. Thank you.

[jetfire]

Discuss issues not each other. Thank you.

You're right, that's my bad.

To the issue at hand: I have copies of the official IDPA rulebook dating back to before the millennium. In none of those rulebooks does it prohibit the LEM trigger. If LSP972 can show me an official IDPA document stating otherwise, I'll gladly eat crow.

[ToddG]

I think it's clear by this point that there was a mistake, LSP972 got the games mixed up, and we've all got it figured out now. LEM was never outlawed in IDPA. It was, for some period of time, outlawed in USPSA presumably because it was either too new for their to be sufficient numbers for USPSA Production or because it was originally marketed as Law Enforcement Only.

[JeffJ]

Assuming that LSP972 did mean Production in USPSA, that was still pretty screwed up by the MD. He should have been able to shoot Limited or Open. Just because a gun isn't on the Production list doesn't mean it's outlawed from the game.

[Corlissimo]

KSTG gives out a ton of procedurals because we have a ton of rules that can earn procedurals. There is no getting around that and no apologies to be made. Our cover rule, for example, has three main components and people break some of them religiously. The reason we have the rules is to get people using cover properly. I've watched, over the two years or so that we've been doing our matches, that our "regulars" can now approach a piece of cover and use it moderately well without having to think about it. That was our goal.

IPSC has no such goal in terms of wanting its competitors to walk away knowing stuff like that. They're not trying to engineer their members into something. And I can absolutely see that having an appeal compared to some guys who decided they wanted to manipulate the thought waves of all their shooters into following Our Way of Doing Something.

IPSC = show up & shoot how you want. IDPA (and KSTG) aren't like that. We have no expectations of KSTG ever going anywhere. It's just our own local outlaw IDPA when you get down to it. If you don't like IDPA, you probably wouldn't like KSTG.

I have yet to attend/shoot any shooting sports event, but I am looking to at some point, preferably sooner than later. I've enjoyed OAK's thread on how he computers with his carry gear, even with its perceived handicaps, and that is the model that I would like to adopt as well as it seems the most practical way to use a game to sharpen skills that real life crapstorms might demand.

That said, if KSTG is as you say then it would be my best choice since I'd like to have a way to learn things (e.g. proper use of cover) under some penalty and pressure. Too bad KSTG is too far away from me.

Typos brought to you by my DROID... and my apathy.

[ToddG]

I think it's dangerous to say that KSTG teaches proper use of cover. A match can't teach you anything. For example, in KSTG we set things up so you can be far outside what I'd consider tight use of cover. It's a technical problem and why IDPA uses a subjective measure instead of fault lines like KSTG. There was a thread (last year?) about cover rules in general and how hard they are to make fair, enforceable, and realistic all at once.

At the end of the day, use of cover is 100% situational. Rules have to be, or at least should be, general, easily understood, and easily followed.

The "no crowding" thing, yeah, I'm glad we do that. But I've had people complain that their agencies teach them to crowd cover and they think our version is "gaming."

At the end of the day, that's probably one of the biggest things to understand about sport shooting. If you want to do it the way you think is right, you really do have to disregard your score altogether. I went a season in IDPA doing speed reloads and getting FTDRs left and right because I despise the concept of tac/retention reloads under any kind of time pressure. As I said upstream from here somewhere, I've completely ruined my results in USPSA stages because when cover is available I try to use it in a way I think I would under real circumstances (which doesn't mean slowly pieing every corner... you don't slowly pie corners when people are shooting at you and your "cover" is 99% of the bullet-transparent material that makes up the modern world).

[NEPAKevin]

Assuming that LSP972 did mean Production in USPSA, that was still pretty screwed up by the MD. He should have been able to shoot Limited or Open. Just because a gun isn't on the Production list doesn't mean it's outlawed from the game.

IDPA had a similar issue when the Springfield XDs were the hot new gun but prior to the current rules, were not allowed in Stock Service Pistol division because they were technically defined as a single action gun. While it was legal to run them in Enhanced or Custom divisions, depending on the caliber, many shooters had issues with not being allowed to compete in SSP while Glocks were, and there was much ado. It is the odd contradiction where competitors expect consistent rules until of course those rules do not let them do something they want to do, then the rules are wrong and the people who make them are idiots and those who enforce them are big meanies drunk on the kook-aid. Welcome to what happens when you put a bunch of arrogant alpha types in a limited space and let them measure up to each other. And yet, its all surprisingly good times for the majority of participants.

[LSP972]

I think it's clear by this point that there was a mistake, LSP972 got the games mixed up.

Hmmm... obviously. The match I went to was definitely an IDPA shoot... run by a predominantly USPSA club. Where I screwed up was looking at the USPSA rule book on-line the following day, apparently, because I definitely saw a prohibition against the LEM. And it would seem the MD made basically the same error.

When I had tried to sign up, the guy asked me what class, I said "Production" (assuming there was such a class); he did not respond to that, but asked me what kind of gun. If I had just said "HK USPc", probably none of this would have transpired. But I said "HK USP Compact LEM", and we were off to the races.

I went back to the same event some months later, got in line behind Donnie Miculek and signed up for the same class/whatever he did on his advice. No drama from that point on. Same gun and gear, BTW.

.

[LSP972]

Also, if you'd like to compare IDPA bona fides, we can do that to. I'm sure i'll find it hilarious.

I'm glad you have "IDPA bona fides". I don't.

Why you would find that hilarious I don't get... but whatever.

I asked cclaxton that question not to denigrate his skill/etc., but was wondering if he had been in the game when this incident took place.

.

[jetfire]

IDPA had a similar issue when the Springfield XDs were the hot new gun but prior to the current rules, were not allowed in Stock Service Pistol division because they were technically defined as a single action gun. While it was legal to run them in Enhanced or Custom divisions, depending on the caliber, many shooters had issues with not being allowed to compete in SSP while Glocks were, and there was much ado. It is the odd contradiction where competitors expect consistent rules until of course those rules do not let them do something they want to do, then the rules are wrong and the people who make them are idiots and those who enforce them are big meanies drunk on the kook-aid. Welcome to what happens when you put a bunch of arrogant alpha types in a limited space and let them measure up to each other. And yet, its all surprisingly good times for the majority of participants.

According to IDPA lore, you can largely blame ATF for that. The story goes that some dude at ATF classified the gun as single action on import documents, and IDPA was like "okay." But that was so long ago it's more legend than anything.

[Corlissimo]

I think it's dangerous to say that KSTG teaches proper use of cover. A match can't teach you anything. For example, in KSTG we set things up so you can be far outside what I'd consider tight use of cover. It's a technical problem and why IDPA uses a subjective measure instead of fault lines like KSTG. There was a thread (last year?) about cover rules in general and how hard they are to make fair, enforceable, and realistic all at once.

At the end of the day, use of cover is 100% situational. Rules have to be, or at least should be, general, easily understood, and easily followed.

The "no crowding" thing, yeah, I'm glad we do that. But I've had people complain that their agencies teach them to crowd cover and they think our version is "gaming."

At the end of the day, that's probably one of the biggest things to understand about sport shooting. If you want to do it the way you think is right, you really do have to disregard your score altogether. I went a season in IDPA doing speed reloads and getting FTDRs left and right because I despise the concept of tac/retention reloads under any kind of time pressure. As I said upstream from here somewhere, I've completely ruined my results in USPSA stages because when cover is available I try to use it in a way I think I would under real circumstances (which doesn't mean slowly pieing every corner... you don't slowly pie corners when people are shooting at you and your "cover" is 99% of the bullet-transparent material that makes up the modern world).

Thanks for the clarification Todd. Agree 100%with the idea of disregarding your score entirely if you want to use games as a "real world" training opportunity. For me, right now it's all just theory until I can actually go experience it.

That said, the time pressure and audience/observer pressure are more pressure than I can currently bring to bear on myself during my range sessions, so rules issues aside, it should be a more constructive learning experience than I've been exposed to thusfar.

Typos brought to you by my DROID... and my apathy.

[GJM]

Agree 100%with the idea of disregarding your score entirely if you want to use games as a "real world" training opportunity.

Human nature being what it is, while some might be able to disregard their score entering just a match or two a year, it would be the unusual competitor willing to both attend matches regularly while continuing to disregard their score.

[ST911]

According to IDPA lore, you can largely blame ATF for that. The story goes that some dude at ATF classified the gun as single action on import documents, and IDPA was like "okay." But that was so long ago it's more legend than anything.

The XD and M&P are mechanically single action autos by definition. The problem is that they're not a hammer-fired, single action as we've traditionally known them which confuses folks.

[Urban_Redneck]

Anyone know what IDPA division the P99 AS fits into?

[Corlissimo]

Human nature being what it is, while some might be able to disregard their score entering just a match or two a year, it would be the unusual competitor willing to both attend matches regularly while continuing to disregard their score.

I agree with this too. I don't think I'd disregard my score entirely, but I would as it related to anyone who is just "playing the game" and not doing something similar to what I am. The score would still matter to me as it would be a way to gauge my own performance and, hopefully, growth. This is the main concept I pulled out of Origami's thread on how he challenges himself by running his EDC gear in competitions. I admire that approach and am working towards implementing it as well.

Typos brought to you by my DROID... and my apathy.

[ToddG]

Human nature being what it is, while some might be able to disregard their score entering just a match or two a year, it would be the unusual competitor willing to both attend matches regularly while continuing to disregard their score.

Depends on (a) what you are there for and, to your point, (b) how much you're giving up by choosing to do things sub optimally. Gabe is still shooting from concealment after all this time, for example, and there's no question it affects his score.

[PPGMD]

Anyone know what IDPA division the P99 AS fits into?

IMO SSP or ESP. In both cases I can't see you being allowed to shoot it in AS mode.

[GJM]

Depends on (a) what you are there for and, to your point, (b) how much you're giving up by choosing to do things sub optimally. Gabe is still shooting from concealment after all this time, for example, and there's no question it affects his score.

I don't think his open draw would be measurably faster, givens his reps concealed, although the 1 or 2 reloads a stage he does in Limited (as opposed to Production where there is a lot more reloading), surely have a .1 or .2 penalty associated with them. No comparison to some dude running the stages "tactically" and adding closer to minutes than .1 or .2.

[ToddG]

Your evaluations of concealed versus open times continue to be drastically tighter than what people like Sevigny and Vogel quote.

[joshs]

I don't think his open draw would be measurably faster, givens his reps concealed, although the 1 or 2 reloads a stage he does in Limited (as opposed to Production where there is a lot more reloading), surely have a .1 or .2 penalty associated with them. No comparison to some dude running the stages "tactically" and adding closer to minutes than .1 or .2.

I think the biggest penalty is shooting minor in a division that allows for major scoring.

[Mr_White]

Depends on (a) what you are there for and, to your point, (b) how much you're giving up by choosing to do things sub optimally. Gabe is still shooting from concealment after all this time, for example, and there's no question it affects his score.

Very true. There is quite a variety of decisions about competition that are all quite credible depending on how one feels about those factors you mention. I think translating a defensive shooter into a competitive setting and figuring out how they are going to do things and with what equipment, as determined by their personal motivations, is a very interesting process.


I don't think his open draw would be measurably faster, givens his reps concealed, although the 1 or 2 reloads a stage he does in Limited (as opposed to Production where there is a lot more reloading), surely have a .1 or .2 penalty associated with them. No comparison to some dude running the stages "tactically" and adding closer to minutes than .1 or .2.

I would basically agree with this as it applies to me. I bet I lose .2 to .3 to my concealment on the reloads. I can't speak to the delta of time for draws and reloads for all the other people who shoot competitively though. I tend to think in a lot of cases there will be more time lost to concealment unless somebody chooses an efficient rig and concealment and does a lot of work with it. Only working with one rig/concealment system allows me to minimize that time difference. I think AIWB and strong side both have a lot of potential for minimizing performance loss to the use of concealed carry gear.

Corlissimo:

For me, competition is about technical skill and performance under pressure, using the gear I carry. I avail myself of what competition can give me, but I don't expect what it can't and won't provide.

I attend to awareness/tactics/etc. elsewhere in my training and preparation, and I think that would be important whether I shoot USPSA, IDPA, KSTG, or anything else. Games can be more 'tactical' than USPSA, but as this thread clearly illustrates, that comes with some complications too.

I think I could reasonably be described as half-in, half-out of USPSA competition. The gear I use is very foolish from the competitive perspective. However, I use that gear to play the game straight up, and make no attempt to use defensive tactics in running stages. I am trying to put up the best score I can using the gear I like.

It's ok to shoot 'tactically' without caring about our score at all. Really, it's ok to shoot it however you want as long as it's safe.

If you release yourself from attachment to situational awareness and tactics within the context of competition, you might want to deliberately allow yourself to get sucked into caring about your performance and how you do in the rankings. Few things ignite motivation to improve technically like genuine enjoyment and interest in winning or doing well. Measuring my abilities in practice and competition and caring about how I perform strongly motivates me to do the work to perform better. If I didn't care, there would be no need to practice and do better. Caring about how I do in the game enhances that specific benefit of competitive shooting, and it's a biggie.

[GJM]

Your evaluations of concealed versus open times continue to be drastically tighter than what people like Sevigny and Vogel quote.

I was referring to Gabe specifically, and having discussed these topics with him extensively, have a good feel about the time deltas.

Now if I guy shot open 95% of the time, and infrequently donned concealment gear, I would agree with your point on times. When I first started shooting without concealment, my draw times were identical -- which was not surprising as my hands traced the same path open as when concealed. If Gabe were to primarily practice open, as opposed to his current practice, then there would be a bigger difference in open versus concealed draw times.

I will also offer this only partly in jest. Competing concealed at a increasingly high level in USPSA is Gabe's thing. He is no more likely to abandon concealment, then to stop wearing those funny hats and sneakers that are the other part of his look. His goal is to be the first retro styled GM shooting from concealed junk gear.

[PPGMD]

I think the biggest penalty is shooting minor in a division that allows for major scoring.

I don't think minor scoring is that much of a handicap.

[joshs]

I don't think minor scoring is that much of a handicap.

I still think it's the biggest disadvantage for shooting Limited minor from concealment. Outside of classifiers there aren't that many places where the time on the reload and draw matter. Stage planning should make the reload difference pretty much irrelevant and very few stages, again, other than classifiers, require a draw without some form of movement before the first target.

[Mr_White]

I don't spend much time concerning myself with it, but I agree with joshs. Minor scoring is at big disadvantage to Major.

To equal a Major-scoring fellow competitor's points, I have to shoot half the number of Cs they do. Half.

I just accept it as a mechanism to pressure me to shoot piles and piles of As, which is the only way I can hope to be competitive with Major. I think it's great for my shooting development.

Even the strategy of 'shoot As' still doesn't really cut it when it comes down to the small margins. I think some (not all) the reason that where I lose, I lose on time, is that Major scorers can engage targets while moving somewhat more than I can. That could be addressed with skill, and over time that's what I'm doing, but there are also other times it's basically unavoidable. Think of a target with a no-shoot tight to the A-zone. I either take the time to shoot 'guaranteed' As, or shoot the As kind of faster but risk the no-shoot (a scoring disaster!), or I deliberately stay away from the no-shoot. If I do that, I drop twice as many points as a Major shooter. And sometimes the shooting problems are difficult enough technically that a person just will not shoot all As.

[TheTrevor]

There's always the option of transitioning to a G35 shooting Major-class 40SW rounds (165gr @ >1000fps) if Minor scoring starts to get annoying. Doesn't even require getting into loading your own custom ammo, Georgia Arms sells 40SW/165gr Major loads.

The Freedom Munitions 40sw 165gr and 180gr rounds also make Major according to their specs, but I have not had a chance to chrono them.

[Mr_White]

I just want to shoot the As.

[TheTrevor]

I just want to shoot the As.

That's the approach I'm taking as well. Just pointing out that it wouldn't be a rough transition if you really wanted to shoot Major.

Personally, if I decide I'm going to shoot Major, I'm going to do it with an HK45 in Lim-10. Just because it'd be fun to see how much advantage I get when my gun works 100% of the time, as opposed to the typical Lim-10 guns...

[M1911]

I'll give a little background about myself before I weigh in on this issue. I first joined IDPA around 2001. I've been most active in the last few years. I'm an SO. I regularly shoot local matches and I'm often running a squad. I've competed in about half a dozen sanctioned matches. I've worked the New England Regional match the last two years. I'm classified as Expert in a couple divisions, Sharpshooter in another. I competed in S&W Indoor Nationals last year and had signed up for the match this year.

I am also a member of USPSA, but only shot a couple matches last year. That will change this year.

I chose not to attend this years Indoor Nationals (even though I had registered and paid my fee) because of Code of Conduct that we were required to sign.

I have no problem with a match having a code of conduct that requires good sportsmanship and safe gun handling. No one likes competitors behaving badly and when it comes to safe gun handling, that is not up for debate.

But this Code of Conduct went far beyond that. I won't always be a champion of IDPA and I will not agree to be muzzled. Frankly, I probably wouldn't have said anything about the IDPA rules at the match -- I would have been too busy figuring out my stage plan and visualizing it, and bitching would have reduced my focus.

But I simply will not abide when someone tells me to shut the heck up. And that is what IDPA has been doing lately.

When it comes to the new rules, IMO IDPA blew it. The flat-footed reloads rule is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Their justification of it -- tactical Teddy's told us so -- is simply not believable. Are there situations where it makes a lot more sense to complete a reload while stationary? Absolutely. In fact, probably most of the time. On the other hand, there are situations when it might make sense to run like heck while reloading, and reloading on the move is a valuable defensive skill.

I have tried to change IDPA from within. I sent comments on the proposed rules to IDPA HQ. Joyce gave their response in the Tactical Journal -- "IDPA isn't for everyone." In other words, shut the heck up or leave.

The latest clarification of the rules made it worse. Now, even while at a single point of cover, you can't move your feet while reloading because that would be "advancing to another point of cover." In other words, a single point of cover is now no longer a single point of cover.

And then we get to the S&W Indoor Nationals and Joyce's decision to make up rules or ignore rules as she pleases. National matches must publish their courses of fire 14 days prior to the match. That is in the new rule book. At this year's SWIN, they posted the COF two days before the match. When I pointed this out to Joyce, she said (I paraphrase) "I won't criticize the SOs because they are working so hard preparing for the match." Well, you know what? I've helped set up the NER two years in a row. I know how hard it is. But if she isn't going to enforce the rule, then why is it in the rule book? She wouldn't answer that.

Were there safe tables at this year's SWIN? The rule book requires them. There weren't any at last year's SWIN. Yet another rule ignored by Joyce and company.

Last year's SWIN had an illegal stage. Another rule ignored.

I know the guys running SWIN. They are good guys. They work hard. I know about the accident at Hartford and the individual being sued. I contributed to his defense fund at the last NER. This isn't personal against the guys at SWIN.i

Regarding the positive comments about NER, those are greatly appreciated. I know that in the past couple years the MDs at NER tried hard to make stages that were challenging for Master level shooters but also completable by Marksmen. Masters could go for the gusto, take risks and maybe make up a lot of time. But the goal wasn't to have Marksmen screwed by targets that disappeared before they could clear their holster.

In my opinion, some of IDPA's problems stem from the fact that the folks in charge (Joyce Fowler, Rob Ray, etc.) are basically marksmen (despite what their classifications might be). They simply make bad decisions.

A number of my shooter friends have made similar decisions about IDPA. Two long time shooters that are buddies went to USPSA exclusively last year. I know a distinguished master who is tossing it in for the same reasons. And I know a safety officer instructor who is doing the same.

It is a mistake to dismiss us as malcontents and dismiss our criticisms. These people getting chased away are the backbone of IDPA. We are the SOs and MDs. We are the people who write the courses of fire, get their early for setup, and stay late for tear down. And many of us have had enough with the arrogance of IDPA HQ.

[ToddG]

If folks cannot discuss the issues without making personal and unrelated comments about the folks running IDPA, I will shut this thread down. pistol-forum.com is about discussing issues and not people. Bringing a bunch of ad hominem into the thread accomplishes nothing.

[cclaxton]

I try to live by the policy of providing praise publicly and criticism privately, at least when it comes to individuals. If anyone can tell me how to do that all the time and still communicate, please let me know.
Cody

[Alpha Sierra]

......

[Alpha Sierra]

I'll give a little background about myself before I weigh in on this issue. I first joined IDPA around 2001. I've been most active in the last few years. I'm an SO. I regularly shoot local matches and I'm often running a squad. I've competed in about half a dozen sanctioned matches. I've worked the New England Regional match the last two years. I'm classified as Expert in a couple divisions, Sharpshooter in another. I competed in S&W Indoor Nationals last year and had signed up for the match this year.

I am also a member of USPSA, but only shot a couple matches last year. That will change this year.

I chose not to attend this years Indoor Nationals (even though I had registered and paid my fee) because of Code of Conduct that we were required to sign.

I have no problem with a match having a code of conduct that requires good sportsmanship and safe gun handling. No one likes competitors behaving badly and when it comes to safe gun handling, that is not up for debate.

But this Code of Conduct went far beyond that. I won't always be a champion of IDPA and I will not agree to be muzzled. Frankly, I probably wouldn't have said anything about the IDPA rules at the match -- I would have been too busy figuring out my stage plan and visualizing it, and bitching would have reduced my focus.

But I simply will not abide when someone tells me to shut the heck up. And that is what IDPA has been doing lately.

When it comes to the new rules, IMO IDPA blew it. The flat-footed reloads rule is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Their justification of it -- tactical Teddy's told us so -- is simply not believable. Are there situations where it makes a lot more sense to complete a reload while stationary? Absolutely. In fact, probably most of the time. On the other hand, there are situations when it might make sense to run like heck while reloading, and reloading on the move is a valuable defensive skill.

I have tried to change IDPA from within. I sent comments on the proposed rules to IDPA HQ. Joyce gave their response in the Tactical Journal -- "IDPA isn't for everyone." In other words, shut the heck up or leave.

The latest clarification of the rules made it worse. Now, even while at a single point of cover, you can't move your feet while reloading because that would be "advancing to another point of cover." In other words, a single point of cover is now no longer a single point of cover.

And then we get to the S&W Indoor Nationals and Joyce's decision to make up rules or ignore rules as she pleases. National matches must publish their courses of fire 14 days prior to the match. That is in the new rule book. At this year's SWIN, they posted the COF two days before the match. When I pointed this out to Joyce, she said (I paraphrase) "I won't criticize the SOs because they are working so hard preparing for the match." Well, you know what? I've helped set up the NER two years in a row. I know how hard it is. But if she isn't going to enforce the rule, then why is it in the rule book? She wouldn't answer that.

Were there safe tables at this year's SWIN? The rule book requires them. There weren't any at last year's SWIN. Yet another rule ignored by Joyce and company.

Last year's SWIN had an illegal stage. Another rule ignored.

I know the guys running SWIN. They are good guys. They work hard. I know about the accident at Hartford and the individual being sued. I contributed to his defense fund at the last NER. This isn't personal against the guys at SWIN.i

Regarding the positive comments about NER, those are greatly appreciated. I know that in the past couple years the MDs at NER tried hard to make stages that were challenging for Master level shooters but also completable by Marksmen. Masters could go for the gusto, take risks and maybe make up a lot of time. But the goal wasn't to have Marksmen screwed by targets that disappeared before they could clear their holster.

In my opinion, some of IDPA's problems stem from the fact that the folks in charge (Joyce Fowler, Rob Ray, etc.) are basically marksmen (despite what their classifications might be). They simply make bad decisions.

A number of my shooter friends have made similar decisions about IDPA. Two long time shooters that are buddies went to USPSA exclusively last year. I know a distinguished master who is tossing it in for the same reasons. And I know a safety officer instructor who is doing the same.

It is a mistake to dismiss us as malcontents and dismiss our criticisms. These people getting chased away are the backbone of IDPA. We are the SOs and MDs. We are the people who write the courses of fire, get their early for setup, and stay late for tear down. And many of us have had enough with the arrogance of IDPA HQ.

This post just closed my decision to not renew my membership.

[_JD_]

Flat footed reloads: Tactical?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/u8era4u4.jpg

Sticking you're entire head out past cover....tactical?

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

[jetfire]

Flat footed reloads: Tactical?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/17/u8era4u4.jpg

Sticking you're entire head out past cover....tactical?

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

Making tactical judgements about an IDPA stage that you can't see all of isn't very smart. I mean, I know where that camera was placed and where the targets were on that stage, because I was there.

Of course, any discussion that involves "tactics" and "IDPA" is doomed to a horrid death anyway. Seriously, no thinks IDPA is teaching serious tactics. Can't we just let that horse die?

[MDS]

Seriously, no thinks IDPA is teaching serious tactics. Can't we just let that horse die?

It needs tenderizing, first, so after it dies we can make asajo and continue the discussion over dinner.

You know what I hate about idpa? The whole-day commitment. Do the rules allow for relays of small squads, each shooting all the stages in about an hour? Works well for fitting kstg into a busy Tuesday, any reason it wouldn't scale to at least club-level idpa matches?

[orionz06]

It needs tenderizing, first, so after it dies we can make asajo and continue the discussion over dinner.

You know what I hate about idpa? The whole-day commitment. Do the rules allow for relays of small squads, each shooting all the stages in about an hour? Works well for fitting kstg into a busy Tuesday, any reason it wouldn't scale to at least club-level idpa matches?


To shoot 100 rounds...

[cclaxton]

It needs tenderizing, first, so after it dies we can make asajo and continue the discussion over dinner.

You know what I hate about idpa? The whole-day commitment. Do the rules allow for relays of small squads, each shooting all the stages in about an hour? Works well for fitting kstg into a busy Tuesday, any reason it wouldn't scale to at least club-level idpa matches?
Most local matches are done within 4 hours. Some clubs require shooters to help set up and tear down, so that adds another hour. There are a few that will have 1 hour slots for about 5-6 shooters. For sanctioned matches, there are three types: half-day formats, whole day formats and multi-day formats (which really only happens at the Carolina Cup). This will depend a lot on the Match Director. The one-hour club matches are usually limited to 4 short stages. The 4 hour IDPA matches are usually 6 more challenging stages (such as drop-turners, movers, etc.), and sanctioned matches will have the most challenging types of stages. When I shoot Annapolis, which is a 4 hour club match, I usually shoot about 150 rounds unless they convert to a steel match due to weather. For the Carolina Cup, it will be about 300-350 rounds. But the point of IDPA is not to shoot a lot of rounds, but to focus on testing skills on very difficult courses of fire (i.e. shooting while moving, shooting moving targets, disappearing targets, managing cover, slicing the pie, etc.), so the FOCUS is different.
Cody

[LeonardRockstein]

You know what I hate about idpa? The whole-day commitment. Do the rules allow for relays of small squads, each shooting all the stages in about an hour? Works well for fitting kstg into a busy Tuesday, any reason it wouldn't scale to at least club-level idpa matches?

I understand the complaint, but whenever I shoot a USPSA match it takes forever as all the gamers spend at least 20 mins strategizing, and when its their turn to shoot they do like 10 practice draws, turn their red dot on and off 3 times, check their magazine 3 times, scuff their feet for 10 seconds, airgun for another 30 seconds, and then give the nod.

IDPA can get alot like that but at lease there is no delay for an epic 20 minute stage strategy session. Anyways these games are alot more fun when you yell "LEEROY JENKINS!" and run through the course doing things inefficiently and shooting one handed when you don't need to.

[ST911]

Anyways these games are alot more fun when you yell "LEEROY JENKINS!" and run through the course doing things inefficiently and shooting one handed when you don't need to.

Next match.

Thanks for that.

[orionz06]

I understand the complaint, but whenever I shoot a USPSA match it takes forever as all the gamers spend at least 20 mins strategizing, and when its their turn to shoot they do like 10 practice draws, turn their red dot on and off 3 times, check their magazine 3 times, scuff their feet for 10 seconds, airgun for another 30 seconds, and then give the nod.

IDPA can get alot like that but at lease there is no delay for an epic 20 minute stage strategy session. Anyways these games are alot more fun when you yell "LEEROY JENKINS!" and run through the course doing things inefficiently and shooting one handed when you don't need to.

This stuff still happens at IDPA. Perhaps not as bad but it is still a game and the players still do gamer things. Maybe they don't check the laces on their Salomons as often but they still do all that crap.

[ToddG]

If you're going to a match for the round count, you're doing it wrong.

[JV_]

The half to full day commitment for IDPA and USPSA is what limits my ability to shoot more matches.

[LeonardRockstein]

Next match.

Thanks for that.

Best moment ever was yelling "NO WITNESSES!" and headshotting three no shoots.

Apparently my friend said some of the old shooters were calling me a "dangerous psychotic" behind my back.

Even after the penalties I still beat 50% of the field on that match.

[LeonardRockstein]

This stuff still happens at IDPA. Perhaps not as bad but it is still a game and the players still do gamer things. Maybe they don't check the laces on their Salomons as often but they still do all that crap.

I agree. I think its less with IDPA though. No stage strategy and ridiculous, unreliable, complicated gamer guns really cuts that down. I actually like USPSA better, but the matches are so far away compared to IDPA (which is still a 45 minute drive) and they take even longer.

[MDS]

Most local matches are done within 4 hours.

Thanks for the breakdown. I've only shot a few matches of various flavors, so my experience is limited but outside kstg - whether a 22 match or idpa or uspsa or outlaw shenanigans - 4 hours has been the minimum, not including time to pack, drive, unpack. More than once I took a DNF because of huge squads on a pleasant day so the duration was just ridiculous. When I didn't have kids it was fine once in a while but these days my threat calculus says I should invest that time playing Lincoln logs.

In my ignorance, I still don't understand why idpa or even uspsa matches can't use relays of smaller squads so folks can get in and out in an hour...

[orionz06]

In my ignorance, I still don't understand why idpa or even uspsa matches can't use relays of smaller squads so folks can get in and out in an hour...

I've always thought it was not allowing progress to get in the way of tradition.

Uspsa around here squads, generally.

[jetfire]

Back when I lived in Seattle, there was a local indoor IDPA club that would run a Tuesday night match, usually 2-4 stages, and over in about 2 hours. They'd cap attendance etc to keep the flow going. It was a nice way to get some regular match practice in during the work week.

[ToddG]

You really cannot compare what an indoor club does -- especially one that is subsidized by the NRA and doesn't have to worry about making money -- and an outdoor club. We max out at 30 shooters a night and due to space restrictions we can deal with six shooters per hour. We also shoot a very limited number of stages, etc.

It's also simply just a lot easier to run half-day or full-day "squads" than to herd cats all day long in small groups.

We tried to run 100 people through ten stages over two days at the NRA one weekend and on the first day, the last squad was scheduled from 8pm to 10pm. They finished up at 2am. It was not pretty.

[JeffJ]

In my ignorance, I still don't understand why idpa or even uspsa matches can't use relays of smaller squads so folks can get in and out in an hour...

The bottom line is that in most clubs, like in most things, a very small percentage of the members do a very large percentage of the work and setting up and taking down 5-6 stages plus classifier is a pretty major undertaking by itself, not to mention figuring out ROs and MDs to do this organizing and squadding. I also don't think that it would help, in USPSA, at least. The last match I shot had fairly small squads (8-12) 5 stages + classifier, we never waited on another group to finish a stage, I wouldn't consider anyone to have taken an undue amount of time prepping or pasting. We had 1 reshoot because of steel malfunction, but the whole thing still took 3 hours.

[jetfire]

I've seen club matches with 50 shooters last 7 hours, and club matches with 120 shooters last three or four. It's really all about how efficient the match staff is at getting things done like scoring and how involved the squads are in taping/resetting props.

[JeffJ]

I've seen club matches with 50 shooters last 7 hours, and club matches with 120 shooters last three or four. It's really all about how efficient the match staff is at getting things done like scoring and how involved the squads are in taping/resetting props.

Me too, but I don't think that 1 hour is realistic for a USPSA match, hell, I can't get a good 200 round practice session in under an hour

[rob_s]

As one of my friends says, "it's a club, not an amusement park."

I have found, quite often, that the people complaining about the time commitment are the same ones that show up after setup and leave before tear down, and only help paste when asked directly.

Anyone that doesn't like how matches are run has two arms, two legs, and a brain that can all directly impact the duration of a match.

Anymore, I go as a tourist. I'm there to smoke a cigar and spend some time outdoors, then possibly talk to some friends or otherwise interesting people, and I might even shoot some guns. I assume I'll be there all day, and if I'm not then that's bonus time. Might even go to the bar with the fellas in that bonus time after we're done.

[JeffJ]

FWIW, the last few rounds of golf I played took longer than the last few matches I've been to, and fortunately I still shoot more rounds in a pistol match than I take swings in a round of golf.

[TheTrevor]

FFS, people. Some of you clearly don't know how good you have it.

The USPSA club I've been going to has room for two (2) stages to be set up at one time, maybe with some room left over to pre-stage some stuff for later. The whole thing is basically run in one large bay. Squad 1 shooter runs the left side, squad 2 shooter runs the right side, then we score/tape/reset both sides. After both squads have run both sides, we tear everything down and set up a third stage plus a classifier.

Commute time for me is ~40 minutes each way. If you're there for setup & teardown (and most folks show up for one if not both) the day runs 0830-1600.

And you know what? I'm happy and grateful for the opportunity to participate, even the day we were shooting in cool weather with intermittent drizzling rain.

IMHO, unless you're is attending a well-staffed major regional or national event, it's unrealistic to expect to show up like you're visiting an unusually loud amusement park, ride 4-6 rides, and go home 2 hours later. As nyeti would say: HTFU.

[PPGMD]

I understand the complaint, but whenever I shoot a USPSA match it takes forever as all the gamers spend at least 20 mins strategizing, and when its their turn to shoot they do like 10 practice draws, turn their red dot on and off 3 times, check their magazine 3 times, scuff their feet for 10 seconds, airgun for another 30 seconds, and then give the nod.

IDPA can get alot like that but at lease there is no delay for an epic 20 minute stage strategy session. Anyways these games are alot more fun when you yell "LEEROY JENKINS!" and run through the course doing things inefficiently and shooting one handed when you don't need to.

Ok I laughed at the Leeroy Jenkins.

Anyways if they are taking twenty minutes, they are violating the rules. I am not sure if this applies to club matches (rarely shoot club matches and when I do they tend to be steel), but at a major match you have five minutes to do your stage walk through after the RO finishes his stage briefing (which typically takes 2-3 minutes). IDPA walk through are about as long in my experience with lots of range lawyers (you should be allowed exactly two range lawyer questions, if you ask a third question it should be legal for your squad to beat you to death and bury you in the berm).

[MDS]

FFS, people [...] HTFU.

Hey, it's not the hardness requirement I'm whining about. These days I ruck a mile uphill with 50# of gear and ammo to get to my favorite range spot - but I can do that on my schedule, when it won't take time from things I care more about.

I'm just pointing out an unserviced market demand. As the sports get more popular, and "mainstream" in the sense that you don't have to be a nyeti-level chew-nails-and-spit-bullets superhuman of mythical norse toughness....... wait, where was I? Oh, right, the little people. I'm just sayin, I can't be the only one who would pay a few extra bucks for convenience, you know?

[Lomshek]

I'm just pointing out an unserviced market demand. As the sports get more popular, and "mainstream" in the sense that you don't have to be a nyeti-level chew-nails-and-spit-bullets superhuman of mythical norse toughness....... wait, where was I? Oh, right, the little people. I'm just sayin, I can't be the only one who would pay a few extra bucks for convenience, you know?

The problem stems from the fact that you can't pay me enough to pick up your (or anyone's) slack. One (or a few) people can't do the work of more than one person and most folks at a USPSA/IDPA match aren't doing it to make a few bucks pasting targets.

I'm a match director and here's what would speed up a shoot. As soon as I call the range clear everyone range walks/trots (military nerd walk) out to a bank of targets they are assigned without distracting chatter, as soon as I call out the score on a target they are pasting it and resetting steel, as soon as I call all targets scored the last two pasters go on and everyone hustles off the field. While that's going on the next shooter is standing next to the start point waiting on my command to load up. Oh and no one makes any errors and new shooters don't take 3 minutes and 58 rounds to clear a 30 second 27 round stage.

The problem is everyone wants to chat with their buddy, not everyone can trot (some kind of limp out to the targets), some folks are brand new shooters and some folks think it's someone else's job to paste targets.

Baring the dream scenario I'd set it up like a triathlon and charge $80 per shooter to hire a bunch of college and high school age kids to be range slaves and do all the resetting. Otherwise it's never going to happen.

[BaiHu]

The problem is everyone wants to chat with their buddy, not everyone can trot (some kind of limp out to the targets), some folks are brand new shooters and some folks think it's someone else's job to paste targets.

Baring the dream scenario I'd set it up like a triathlon and charge $80 per shooter to hire a bunch of college and high school age kids to be range slaves and do all the resetting. Otherwise it's never going to happen.

I agree and that took me one match to learn. A lot of "privileged" people think it's everyone else's job to paste, police and reset. It was in the single digits too, you'd of thought people would want to move/hustle *shrug*


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[MDS]

Baring the dream scenario I'd set it up like a triathlon and charge $80 per shooter to hire a bunch of college and high school age kids to be range slaves and do all the resetting. Otherwise it's never going to happen.

Now we're talking! Or free squad slots to the folks that do the resetting. Or...or...or...isn't it great how the free market system just inspires creative problem-solving? Only...will that really make a 4-hour match take just an hour?

Seriously. Whoever figures out a scheme that makes gun games take less of a time commitment will make a positive difference to the shooting sports as a whole.

[Slavex]

Having attended at of large matches the one thing that stands out is good officials. If you have good ROs and CROs who keep people moving, you can shoot a lot of stages in a half day. Typically the matches I shoot are run like that, you shoot a half day and work a half day. The bigger matches have staff that work, plus the volunteer ROs, which means you can hit the beer tent as soon as you're done shooting (if that's your thing). The sport does ask for you to do more than shoot more often than not though. But most games are like that.

[cclaxton]

One local club match uses a sequential squad technique that is very efficient. This is not always good for outdoor ranges where you have to walk a ways to the next bay.
There are four stages inside an indoor range. Four shooters will come to the line and LOAD their guns. Three will step back to the waiting area and one shooter will start on Stage 1 and the SO will run that shooter and top him off. They score shooter 1. Then, shooter 2 steps up and shoots Stage 1. Then shooter 1 steps up and shoots stage 2 and top him off. They then score shooters 1 and 2. They repeat this two more times, adding two more shooters until shooter 1 has shot all four stages. Shooter number 5 will then enter the rotation. Once you get to shooter 5 you have four shooters come to the line and LOAD, and then sequentially run the shooters, waiting to score the targets until all four shooters shot their stages, and adding a new shooter when one shooter finishes. This would normally be a 4 hour match, but most shooters can shoot it in 40 minutes. But, if you get there at peak time, you are going to wait. It's first come, first served. You can estimate how much waiting time you have and go for coffee if you want. The only downside I can see is if you have new shooters who hit targets in another stage. But SO's know where the closer targets are at and can usually catch it when it happens.
Cody

[ToddG]

I agree and that took me one match to learn. A lot of "privileged" people think it's everyone else's job to paste, police and reset. It was in the single digits too, you'd of thought people would want to move/hustle *shrug*

Heard at every match I've run: "If you're not up next and you aren't the guy who just shot, paste targets now." Enforce it. DQ people who don't help. Problem resolves itself within a month or two. Pasting targets, setting steel, etc. aren't volunteer help, it's part of your responsibility as a participant.

[rsa-otc]

Heard at every match I've run: "If you're not up next and you aren't the guy who just shot, paste targets now." Enforce it. DQ people who don't help. Problem resolves itself within a month or two. Pasting targets, setting steel, etc. aren't volunteer help, it's part of your responsibility as a participant.

QFT

From the first modern (PPC doesn't count) match I ever attended I show up early and stay late. One you make more friends, two you get done sooner. I can't think of a match I have just showed up and shot. Now most of my regular club matches I rarely pay for. :-)

[Slavex]

In the Philippines the matches are chaotic, people showing up whenever they want and shooting 20 stages in a day, or 3 one day, 16 the next and 1 the day after that (multi day matches obviously). I've never experienced it myself, but friends who've gone say it works remarkably well. No squading is done, you just make your way to a stage and shoot when you're up. I am assuming they have full time staff for patching and setting steel.
When I RO a stage I make sure my helpers help, and if the squad is supposed to help I explain it the same way Todd explained it. I will give one warning, I haven't had to 10-6 anyone yet. I don't much care if you are the top shooter or a brand new shooter, actually that's not true, a new shooter will get the benefit of doubt from me, an experienced one won't. I will also not let people patch or reset steel until I know if the shooter has heard or seen what I am talking about, especially if I call misses. If the shooter elects to not follow me, or appoint someone to do it in his stead, then patching commences immediately after the call. Something I also warn them of before the WSB is read out.

[rob_s]

I'm just pointing out an unserviced market demand. As the sports get more popular, and "mainstream" in the sense that you don't have to be a nyeti-level chew-nails-and-spit-bullets superhuman of mythical norse toughness....... wait, where was I? Oh, right, the little people. I'm just sayin, I can't be the only one who would pay a few extra bucks for convenience, you know?

It seems you must not deal with unskilled labor in your job.

A 4-5 stage match usually takes 10-20 people 1-2 hours to set up. Then each stage needs no less than three pasters to move efficiently for a 3-4 hour match, and then a other 1-2 hours of 10-20 people to tear down. This boils down to needing 15 pasters for a 5 stage match, so let's assume you use the same number for setup and tear down. So I need 15 guys, 2 hours for setup, 4 hours for the match, and 2 hours for tear-down. That's 15 guys for 8 hours for a total of 120 hours at.... What would you like to pay them? $10/hour? $1200? It will probably be more like $15, so $1800? Divided by 50 shooters (an average for our local clubs on a weekend match)... So an EXTRA $36/shooter, on top of the $15-25 current match fee.

Sure, perfectly reasonable.

As someone who has run matches and therefore dealt with the all-volunteer workforce, I can tell you that it is a pain in the ass. It's not like dealing with paid workers that I can threaten to fire, these are people volunteering their time so that everyone can shoot. Even the special snowflakes that show up 10 min late, leave 10 min early, and don't touch a paster for the four hours that they are there. My solution was that I came with a lot of stages in my head. If there were enough people there to help set up then we had interesting stages, of not then we had boring stages because I didn't have the manpower to set it up and I had to assume I would be there tearing it down by myself.

[ToddG]

Robbie -- A big part of that "shotgun squadding" approach is that you need a full staff on each stage ready to go. Carolina Cup is (or at least was) run that way for years and Frank would get hundreds of shooters through 10-16 stages a day. But each bay had multiple dedicated ROs.

When you back down to club matches where squads often RO themselves or there are only enough ROs for a a few bays at a time, that system becomes far more limited.

[Slavex]

true and when we run club matches we often squad people at specific times, especially our indoor matches. squads of 7-10 people get 3 hrs to shoot all the stages. we have a few dedicated ROs who stay the day each day. But it still comes down to the ROs doing their job effectively.

[jetfire]

The number 1 cause of match slowdowns that I've seen over the years is broken/malfunctioning props. Second is poor stage flow, for example putting two burner stages right before a long, complicated stage so people get bottlenecked on the long stage. The 3rd is shooter induced, where people aren't reseting/painting/taping like they should. When only 2 people on a 12 bro squad are taping, it is a problem.

[MDS]

One local club match uses a sequential squad technique that is very efficient.

This sounds like a great approach, ripe for copying and tweaking!


In the Philippines the matches are chaotic, [...] but friends who've gone say it works remarkably well. [...] I am assuming they have full time staff for patching and setting steel.

It seems painfully obvious that a lot of time is wasted in matches because of inefficient stage resets. A little ruthless labor management can go a long way, as Todd described for squads that reset their own stages. (I suspect the Philippine labor management ethic and minimum wage of $10/day doesn't make it harder to run a smooth, cheap match...)


It seems you must not deal with unskilled labor in your job.

Come on, let's not do that to this thread. It's unseemly. Let's focus on the ideas. They seem to be:


A 4-5 stage match usually takes 10-20 people 1-2 hours to set up.

So, 2-10 man-hours per stage, it seems? That seems like a long time. I only have a little experience setting up stages, and I realize there's overhead, like you've got to get the gear from the shed and etc, but what kind of stage can't be set up by a lone worker in an hour or two? Maybe there's a lot of complicated stage design happening in that time? But you're speaking from experience, so let's take it at face value and assume the average (6 man-hours set-up per stage, same for tear-down.)


Then each stage needs no less than three pasters to move efficiently for a 3-4 hour match, and then a other 1-2 hours of 10-20 people to tear down. This boils down to needing 15 pasters for a 5 stage match, so let's assume you use the same number for setup and tear down. So I need 15 guys, 2 hours for setup, 4 hours for the match, and 2 hours for tear-down. That's 15 guys for 8 hours for a total of 120 hours at.... What would you like to pay them? $10/hour? $1200? It will probably be more like $15, so $1800? Divided by 50 shooters (an average for our local clubs on a weekend match)... So an EXTRA $36/shooter, on top of the $15-25 current match fee.

With the following assumptions: 6 man-hours per stage for setup and teardown; 5 stages; 3 relays of 5-man squads; 3 workers per stage at $15/hr; 5 minutes for stage description; 1 minute to shoot; 2 minutes to score and paste. And adding 10% time fudge factor. You get 60 shooters, each committing to 1.5 hours for the whole match. The total time for all relays is 4:45, plus 2 hours pre- and 2 hours post-setup. You paid each of 15 workers $130 for a day's work.

Cost of labor to each competitor is $32.54, let's make it $50 to include the match fee. The sales pitch is: "5-stage match in 90 minutes! Professional staff so you can buy expensive water to fund club activitities, and chat with friends about such, rather than paste your own stages." Endless permutations. "VIP pass for $10 gets you listed on the Club Supporter list, plus access to the shade tent with free wifi." If you want to save a few bucks, add some fine print: "The first 15 participants to apply for all-day worker detail can shoot the match for free during a special 'staff' relay before the match opens to the public." Keep going down that path, you might have a pool of volunteers that work like actual workers, if the organizers manage it right.

Anyway, it seems there's plenty of opportunity for a go-getter kind of guy to make the sport more appealing to people for whom shooting a match just isn't important enough to give up a whole Saturday...


Sure, perfectly reasonable.

See? We can totally agree on some things! :cool:


As someone who has run matches and therefore dealt with the all-volunteer workforce, I can tell you that it is a pain in the ass. It's not like dealing with paid workers that I can threaten to fire, these are people volunteering their time so that everyone can shoot. Even the special snowflakes that show up 10 min late, leave 10 min early, and don't touch a paster for the four hours that they are there. My solution was that I came with a lot of stages in my head. If there were enough people there to help set up then we had interesting stages, of not then we had boring stages because I didn't have the manpower to set it up and I had to assume I would be there tearing it down by myself.

I don't disagree, dude. I'm saying that if someone puts a bunch of energy and entrepreneurial creativity into it, there's got to be a way to make it so "most" shooters can just show up, shoot some stages, and go home.....

[Lomshek]

Heard at every match I've run: "If you're not up next and you aren't the guy who just shot, paste targets now." Enforce it. DQ people who don't help. Problem resolves itself within a month or two. Pasting targets, setting steel, etc. aren't volunteer help, it's part of your responsibility as a participant.
While RO'ing (I'm the MD at our local USPSA match so I always RO) I'll hand strips of pasters out before the stage briefing and explain that everyone pastes except the ones about to shoot or shooting and the one who just shot (should be reloading mags). Most folks are shamed into helping when you literally walk up to them, hand them pasters and say "I need you to adopt that target array over there and paste it after each shooter".

I swear I'm going to set up a surveillance cam and drill folks on how to reset a stage efficiently so they can see how a smooth squad operates then show a slow squad to compare the difference.


Now we're talking! Or free squad slots to the folks that do the resetting. Or...or...or...isn't it great how the free market system just inspires creative problem-solving? Only...will that really make a 4-hour match take just an hour?

Seriously. Whoever figures out a scheme that makes gun games take less of a time commitment will make a positive difference to the shooting sports as a whole.

When I host our annual pistol night shoot I bring in a bunch of ROTC cadets to help as slave labor. They help with construction and re-setting stages with 4 cadets per squad. Shooters still help too but 4 dedicated re-setters per squad speeds things up. In exchange I do some volunteer rifle and pistol instructing with the cadets (doing M9 stuff in a few days!) and set up a couple Appleseeds so they learn the basics of how to actually hit the target.

The only thing that will make a 4 hour match a one hour match is a dedicated (& fit) professional RO, CRO & reset crew for each stage. They have to be fit because they'll spend all of their time either sprinting with the shooters (volunteer to be an RO on a long 3 gun stage if you doubt it) and speedwalking between target arrays scoring as fast as possible (only pausing on questionable scores). I'm talking legit cardio fitness not do 5 laps around the food court at the mall.

[rob_s]

I don't disagree, dude. I'm saying that if someone puts a bunch of energy and entrepreneurial creativity into it, there's got to be a way to make it so "most" shooters can just show up, shoot some stages, and go home.....

Right, that's why virtually nobody has figured it out in all these years of USPSA and IDPA, cause it's so easy according to the guy that can't be bothered to shoot either.

You question my labor rates, and productivity rates, and get upset when I point out that you know nothing about them, but then go on to clearly demonstrate that you know nothing about them.

I have a relatively unique set of experiences here that you apparently don't. This isn't kindergarten, some opinions are less valid than others. I've run matches and been involved in them in one way or another for ten years, and my real job involves managing and paying for unskilled labor. I think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to combine the two.

The other thing that hasn't been brought up is the money issue. YOU may be willing to pay your delusional $5-10/ match extra, but I guarantee you nobody else is. When expenses go up and the clubs raise their match fees, the hue and cry can be heard across all three counties!

I've known for a long time why matches fail to be more productive, and that is that the people that have the skills to make that happen are typically busy actually being productive. The guy who can make $200k+/year managing people isn't often likely to have the time or desire to go manage a bunch of volunteer nincompoops. And the people that try to make a buck off of these things (usually someone lacking said management skills that is trying to "get rich quick" or turn their hobby into an income stream) fail because they don't know enough to know that the metrics aren't there.

So you have the nighttime security guard, the mechanic, the stay at home dad... All , trying to run a match. There's nothing wrong with any of those roles, but people with good management skills don't usually find themselves in those jobs, and people with those jobs don't tend to know what it's like to manage people.

"Ruthless" management only works to a point. It's easy when it's you and your 30 favorite friends or sycophants. It's much harder when it's 60 of random strangers, doing something dangerous, who feel like they paid their money and should now be waited on hand and foot...

Which is why I will be standing in a field smoking a cigar tomorrow. I hear I might even get to catch up with some friends. Rumor is, there might even be shooting.

[ToddG]

I've known for a long time why matches fail to be more productive, and that is that the people that have the skills to make that happen are typically busy actually being productive.

Dude, that has to be some kind of weird local thing. Up here we have tons of clubs that put 100+ people through matches in half a day. You said you need 10-40 man hours to set up a 4-5 stage match; we do that at the NRA with as little as six man hours on a very regular basis. When we get five people on our setup crew (call it 15 man hours of setup) we've built entire 3-dimensional low-light houses. I honestly cannot imagine what I'd do with a 20-man setup crew.

[MDS]

You question my labor rates, and productivity rates, and get upset when I point out that you know nothing about them, but then go on to clearly demonstrate that you know nothing about them.

I have a relatively unique set of experiences here that you apparently don't. This isn't kindergarten, some opinions are less valid than others.

You sure sound confident about my ignorance. I'm curious as to how you conclude that I know nothing about the labor and productivity rates in your area, but unfortunately this thread isn't about me, and besides I don't want a fight.

Tell you what - don't worry about ignoramooses like me. Stay cool, smoke cigars, and run your optimally-configured matches. I'll keep stupidly looking for convenient matches where I can show up, shoot, and go home in an hour.

[cclaxton]

If there was one perfect way to run an action pistol match, we would ALL be doing it the same way. I personally think it's great that we have different ways of solving this problem of efficient match management. I shoot at enough matches that I actually like the diversity...changes it up a bit.

At AAFG we take 1 hour to set up six complex stages (drop turners, movers, doors, walls, etc.), four hours to shoot the match running 28-36 shooters, and then tear down takes about an half-hour. Some stick around to pick through brass and go to lunch together.

Also, how things are managed affect the culture of that club. Some clubs enjoy the social time before and after the match. Freedom...it's a great thing.

Cody

[cclaxton]

I have an idea for shooters who fail to paste. After the first verbal warning, add 3sec to their time! (Taking into account they may need to reload mags)
Cody

[NickA]

Second is poor stage flow, for example putting two burner stages right before a long, complicated stage so people get bottlenecked on the long stage. The 3rd is shooter induced, where people aren't reseting/painting/taping like they should. When only 2 people on a 12 bro squad are taping, it is a problem.

That is (or is supposed to be) one of the principles of golf course design. The back 9 should mirror the front 9, to prevent backups between par 3's and par 5's,etc.
And people that don't tape suck, period.

[jetfire]

That is (or is supposed to be) one of the principles of golf course design. The back 9 should mirror the front 9, to prevent backups between par 3's and par 5's,etc.
And people that don't tape suck, period.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Mr_White]

I don't have very strong opinions about how to run a match, but here's what I see in local USPSA:

~80 person match.

Six stages, one of which is a classifier.

Match starts at 9am, takes about 5 hours, done by about 2pm.

There is some variation in how fast a given squad moves through the match and sometimes there are delays. Mostly it's not bad and I am happy enough with it.

The only time I have been unhappy with the wait time was in a 'Classifier' match where there were four classifiers and two field courses. The field courses were back to back and had a huge delay. It made no sense to me to put any field courses in, and I would have preferred six classifiers instead.

[jetfire]

I don't have very strong opinions about how to run a match, but here's what I see in local USPSA:

~80 person match.

Six stages, one of which is a classifier.

Match starts at 9am, takes about 5 hours, done by about 2pm.

There is some variation in how fast a given squad moves through the match and sometimes there are delays. Mostly it's not bad and I am happy enough with it.

The only time I have been unhappy with the wait time was in a 'Classifier' match where there were four classifiers and two field courses. The field courses were back to back and had a huge delay. It made no sense to me to put any field courses in, and I would have preferred six classifiers instead.

That was usually how the matches in the Seattle area would go. Shooting starts at 10am, everyone's out by 2/3ish. Every once and a while you'd get one of the rodeo scenarios that I mentioned but not that often. In fact, there was only one club up there that couldn't get it together, and that was one of the IDPA clubs, whose membership consisted of 50% people who didn't feel like taping/resetting was something they should have to do.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In the San Antonio IDPA world, volunteers help set up around 8 to 9:00 AM. Match starts at 10:00 but a newbie lecture at 9:30 ish. 5 stages and about 60 shooters. We get done about 1:00 PM. Yep, non-tapers are evil.

I once went to a USPSA match but was frightened by overweight men dressed in weird spandex outfits that looked like bumble bees. They were also shooting what seemed to be giant rayguns with horn like gadgets on the butt of the guns.

I do like steel matches where I blast away with a 22 LR Buckmark with fiber optics. It's relaxing.

As far as reality and IDPA - what more can be said - then a scenario that says you see 5 men with guns and you charge forward to meet them - instead of FLEEING. But it's fun and trigger time, mag change basics.

[NEPAKevin]

After the 2011Pa IDPA state match, where we ran two relays of six squads of about twelve, through eleven stages in under four hours each relay, i received complaints both that the match was too fast and that it was too slow.

[jetfire]

After the 2011Pa IDPA state match, where we ran two relays of six squads of about twelve, through eleven stages in under four hours each relay, i received complaints both that the match was too fast and that it was too slow.

It is quite impossible to make shooters happy. There is a relevant Chris Rock bit about a sex toy made out of diamond, I won't repeat it here for obvious reasons.

[Jared]

Last local USPSA match I shot was 6 stages, 1 of which was a classifier, required something on the order of 130 rounds minimum, and took my squad about 4 hours to shoot. That seems to be about average for me at that club. We had a whole squad of people that had no problem getting out and pasting and resetting steel, so even the most complex 32 round stage complete with Texas Star was back up and ready to rock pretty quickly.

[gringop]

Since this has turned into the "how to run an efficient match" thread I'll add in my thoughts as a 10 year IDPA SO.

It all depends on squad leadership.
If the SO is not loudly asking "Who is my next shooter?" 5 seconds after he has scored the last target, the match is going to run long.
If the scorekeeper is not loudly calling out the next 4 shooters in the shooting order 5 seconds after he has recorded the previous shooters scores, the match is going to run long.
If the SO is not shouting "Clear the range" 10 seconds after the last target is taped/reset, the match will run long.
If the SO does not tape at least 2 targets after they are scored, the match will run long (unless the squad gets to them before the SO can).

The SO (and scorekeeper) set's the example for the rest of the squad, if they are moving things along smartly, the squad will follow along (mostly). If they stand around BSing and picking their nose, the squad will follow suite.

For carbine matches which have multiple stages requiring "load and make ready" with both pistol and carbine, we appoint a secondary SO that manages the LAMR with the next shooter at the side berm. Once the stage is taped, reset and cleared, the secondary SO will accompany the shooter to the primary SO who now has a shooter ready to go.

There are lots of way to make matches move along efficiently. They all require good leadership.

Gringop

[cclaxton]

Since this has turned into the "how to run an efficient match" thread I'll add in my thoughts as a 10 year IDPA SO.
For carbine matches which have multiple stages requiring "load and make ready" with both pistol and carbine, we appoint a secondary SO that manages the LAMR with the next shooter at the side berm. Once the stage is taped, reset and cleared, the secondary SO will accompany the shooter to the primary SO who now has a shooter ready to go.
Gringop
Thanks for the wise observations. What a great idea on carbine matches...this really could apply to just about any kind of long gun. Although I really like the way it is generally done in 3gun: While the previous shooter is being scored and pasted, the next shooter has all mags on his person and has both long guns "muzzle-up" and is standing near the starting point or near the staging barrel where he will leave the shotgun or rifle. Once the RO/SO has confirmed the range is clear of people, he loads up your staged long gun, and the second long gun if starting with a pistol. (Note the shooter doesn't have the bring the long gun to the line cased, as is done at many DMG matches.) Then he takes you to the starting point and loads your pistol. (Although now that I think about it, loading the pistol under the supervision of a 2nd RO would save some time, too.) Also, the shotgun tubes are loaded but no round is in the chamber. Rifles are not loaded when going to the line.

Thanks for the post. I am taking on Match Director at my local club this summer and I appreciate the advice.
Cody

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The biggest slowdown we've faced lately is cranky moving targets. I've wondered about the efficacy of ones with no-shoots swinging back and forth in front of a shoot target. That ever happen? Disappearing or rotating targets - perhaps.

It was windy yesterday and a turner turned into a sail and we had to completly redo it as it jammed on the turns.

[CoThG]

Merrian Webster says there are two definitions for Perjury. One is a matter of law. The other is this: "the voluntary violation of an oath or vow either by swearing to what is untrue or by omission to do what has been promised under oath : false swearing"

They probably should have used a better word, but I have no issue because I will not violate the terms.
COdy

[JV: Personal attack removed]

[cclaxton]

Do you get a lollipop for not violating the terms and being IDPA's poster boy?
CoThG,
Please make personal comments using a PM.

Sometimes people get carried away thinking they are doing good.....

BTW, I have no problem being a poster boy for the IDPA. I am proud to be a member and strong supporter of the sport. That doesn't mean I agree with everything and IDPA has it's problems. But when you add up the credits/value and the debits/problems, IDPA is still a great sport and fun to shoot and has a lot of great people participating. It is also more friendly to new/novice shooters. And, it forces me to get better at shooting. I am not a natural talent so I have to work at it.

I hope that gives you some context of my comments.

Cody

[CoThG]

Just returned from shooting the IDPA Indoor Nationals at S&W and am more energized than ever about the incredible value of IDPA. In most of the stages it challenged me in ways that show me my strengths and my weaknesses in every area of practice. I was challenged in flashlight work, having to shoot one string in total darkness weak hand with flashlight. I was challenged with moving targets, disappearing targets which demanded that I shoot quick and accurate. I was challenged with moving while shooting in a variety of ways. I was challenged to remember which targets I had engaged. I was challenged to choose cover carefully. I was challenged to shoot in a cold wind tunnel at 20MPH. I was challenged to avoid distractions. Every stage that required use of cover had a dedicated SO watching the line of cover from about 2-3 yards where he could judge good use of cover. Penalties were given for clear violations, and not just half-a-foot. I saw NO violations of the moving while reloading rule, although there were only a couple of opportunities to break the rule. I saw quite a few penalties for engaging targets out of order because the stages were designed to give the shooter an option, and if you didn't have a good plan, you got bonus points. One of the best matches I have ever shot. And, the best indoor venue I have ever experienced, considering these were not shoothouses. There was some discussion about the Code of Conduct, but one SO working the match put it this way: The CofC was really for the SO's and Staff working the match because they wanted to make sure that the match was operated in a totally professional manner, and not like a club match. No one cared about the CofC who was shooting this match. The only discussion I had about IDPA rules was the imperfect judgement of cover calls, and even that attitude was changing as squads saw how the Cover SO made the calls.

We had a number of people DQ'd because their rounds didn't pass Chrono. Jack Ross 147gr chrono'd at 881 & 901FPS. Working theory is that Titegroup powder changes in the colder, drier climates. My theory is barometric pressure was a factor. Either way it pretty well sucked for them. The MD had a variety of factory rounds tested with the chrono equipment to verify it was tracking against known ammo varieties to make sure the chrono was calibrated.

Everyone was excited to be shooting the matches. People accepted the new rules.

On the nightsights: I found that night sights would have provided very little advantage, if any, in the stages we shot there. When you needed a flashlight, it resulted in still being able to get a sight picture without tritium. If you chose to use no flashlight in one particular stage, you needed to point-shoot and you could see the outline of the targets before they disappeared. You had to open a door, which triggered domino targets falling in the dark. You had to open the door strong hand then draw. By the time you got your gun out of the holster they were beginning to fall, so using a flashlight would have provided very little advantage and maybe slowed you down. Few people actually had tritiums or rechargeable sights. There was a lot of discussion on flashlight techniques and exchange of ideas and experiences and success stories.

For those naysayers about IDPA: I think you are blowing these rules changes entirely out of proportion given the overall value of shooting IDPA matches, especially at the Major Levels. Most people would rather shoot and focus on technique, improvement, stage planning, and just enjoying the COF. If IDPA is not your cup of tea, then move on. If you have complaints, register them respectfully with the right people, and if they don't take your suggestions, then get over it...IDPA doesn't have to agree with you!!! There are a lot of people involved in those policy decisions and due consideration is given, but it's not a public debate with IDPA. The YUKU forum is the place to make those appeals and discuss them.

In the meantime, I hope everyone will remember the value of being challenged in a COF, and that is what makes it such a valuable shooting sport.

Cody


I hope that Joyce Wilson never comes to an abrupt halt. [JV: Personal attack removed]

[Mr_White]

It is also more friendly to new/novice shooters.

In what ways do you feel like IDPA is more friendly to new/novice shooters?

[Peally]

Just in my experience it was a bit easier to follow a pre-planned stage plan than make your own (worrying about safety throughout). That plus a lower round count and I can see how it would seem more inviting to casual shooters.

[orionz06]

In what ways do you feel like IDPA is more friendly to new/novice shooters?

They are closer to giving prizes to people who simply can't shoot well. Can't do well in USPSA? Buy a vest and all of the sudden you are a stud in IDPA. It is almost the participation trophy gun game.


My IDPA number is A30410, report me for not following some silly code of ethics and not swearing on the bible that IDPA is the bestest tactical self defense training competition in the whole wide universe.

[cclaxton]

In what ways do you feel like IDPA is more friendly to new/novice shooters?
Well, this does depend on the USPSA club. Quantico is great with new shooters although they still expect you to know your stuff when you walk to the shooting line.
But a lot of IDPA matches are club level matches with shooters that are Novice, Marksman or SS levels, whereas most USPSA matches have C-class, or above very experienced competitors. It's a combination of seeing other shooters of a similar level and being less intimidating. Some of it is the average concealed carry equipment philosophy (although agree Production is not much different), and it's also a matter of people relating to the idea that IDPA is concealed carry oriented, not pure competition. Some people see open guns and sponsored shirts and they feel out of place.

Cody

[cclaxton]

They are closer to giving prizes to people who simply can't shoot well. Can't do well in USPSA? Buy a vest and all of the sudden you are a stud in IDPA. It is almost the participation trophy gun game.


My IDPA number is A30410, report me for not following some silly code of ethics and not swearing on the bible that IDPA is the bestest tactical self defense training competition in the whole wide universe.

C'mon. That's not right. We have been over this before. Just because you have issues with IDPA or don't like it is no reason to say insulting things. Learning to shoot well is a process, and rewarding people for making progress is a good thing. That is COACHING 101. So, why don't we just do away with the Class system in USPSA if that is your complaint?

If IDPA is not your cup of tea, then okay, but please don't try to ruin it for others. If you want to promote USPSA, go for it. It doesn't mean you have to insult IDPA to do it.
Cody

[jetfire]

In what ways do you feel like IDPA is more friendly to new/novice shooters?

It's a lot easier to meet the competitive gear requirements for IDPA than it is for USPSA. Hell, S&W quite literally sells M&Ps with a Blade-Tech holster, three mags and a double mag pouch.

[JeffJ]

It's a lot easier to meet the competitive gear requirements for IDPA than it is for USPSA. Hell, S&W quite literally sells M&Ps with a Blade-Tech holster, three mags and a double mag pouch.

Which would be perfect to shoot Limited and you don't even need a cover garment.

[Rick Finsta]

Which would be perfect to shoot Limited and you don't even need a cover garment.

Why wouldn't it be okay for production?

[JV_]

Just because you have issues with IDPA or don't like it is no reason to say insulting things.

Cody - My intention it not to pick on you, it's simply to point out something that seems really askew. You defend IDPA like it's your first born son. IDPA is not a person or your dog, it's a game. There's no need to jump in and try to defend it against every person that says something negative about it .... you can let some stuff go.

[Mr_White]

Why wouldn't it be okay for production?

I think because one would need more than three magazines, and a few more mag pouches, to have a very workable Production rig. Three ~17 round magazines works fine in Limited since the mags can be filled to capacity. The gun would be fine in Production regardless.

---------------

There are lots of finer points to the rules that I don't know about, but isn't USPSA more inclusive of a broader variety of pistols, since it allows proper race guns, stock guns, and formerly-stock guns with some modification, in one Division or another? It's definitely more inclusive of certain ancillary equipment that is associated with some legitimate practices of duty and concealed carry in the 21st century: lasers, mini-RDS, WML, and AIWB carry.

That all centers around equipment, but I think there is more to it than that.

A person new to USPSA can be taught expectations of when and where to gunhandle on the range, the 180 rule, the existence of fault lines, the basic scoring system, and can then go forth and use their skills to shoot all the targets, probably without procedural penalty. That new person would have to also learn dictated tactics if trying IDPA, or probably face various procedural penalties. That seems more burdensome, not less, to a person new to competitive shooting.

I don't know how far down the rankings they give awards in IDPA, but at the local USPSA matches here, it is pretty close to 'everyone gets a ribbon.' First, second, third, each Division, each Class, Special Categories. Sometimes it really feels like everyone gets a ribbon, even though not everyone really does. An awful lot are given out though.

I guess I can't really speak to a new shooter being intimidated by Open guns and fancy jerseys with logos. Maybe some people are intimidated by that, and maybe some people are intimidated by the seemingly incredible shooting skills that many competitive shooters possess. I don't tend to think it's better to keep them insulated from the higher levels of skill that exist. I sure wouldn't want a shooting sport to 'do me a favor' by keeping me unaware of how good I could be if I really worked for it.

Thoughts?

[jetfire]

I'd argue that IDPA is more noob friendly because the stages are less free-form and more like tactical kata: go here, shoot these dudes, go there, shoot those dudes, unload and show clear. I would also point out that IDPA tends to do a better job of attracting new shooters than USPSA at the national level.

[Jared]

I remember my first USPSA match, which was a special classifier match. I thought that 6 stages, all classifiers would be an awesome way to get my feet wet. So I showed up with a gun, like 4 mags, and 2 mag pouches. I nearly fainted when I saw that the match had 5 classifier stages and 2 large (30 round) field courses. Now, I would have been fine if I'd decided to shoot Limited, but I had my heart set on Production. The Match Director loaned me an extra mag pouch, took me under his wing for the day, and I got through okay.

I also remember feeling a little odd when I saw the "go fast" jerseys. I honestly did not expect that at a local match. I really wasn't "intimidated" per se, but it was unexpected.

All in all, I did okay jumping straight in to the deep end of the pool that day. IIRC, I finished second in Production division, only had like 4 Charlies on the day, and had at least one dude ask if it really was my first match or if I was joking.

Still though, I think one big thing that could have made IDPA an easier start is the smaller stages. I picked a classifier match to start with because I wanted to get my feet wet on smaller more straightforward stages. Those big 30 round courses did cause me a great deal of concern until I actually shot them.

[Jared]

There are lots of finer points to the rules that I don't know about, but isn't USPSA more inclusive of a broader variety of pistols, since it allows proper race guns, stock guns, and formerly-stock guns with some modification, in one Division or another? It's definitely more inclusive of certain ancillary equipment that is associated with some legitimate practices of duty and concealed carry in the 21st century: lasers, mini-RDS, WML, and AIWB carry.

That all centers around equipment, but I think there is more to it than that.

A person new to USPSA can be taught expectations of when and where to gunhandle on the range, the 180 rule, the existence of fault lines, the basic scoring system, and can then go forth and use their skills to shoot all the targets, probably without procedural penalty. That new person would have to also learn dictated tactics if trying IDPA, or probably face various procedural penalties. That seems more burdensome, not less, to a person new to competitive shooting.




I agree quite fully with this. The person with a CCW and an AIWB rig, or a pistol with a RDS, WML, or laser can find a welcome home in USPSA. Now, the RDS, laser, or WML may land that shooter in OPEN, and they will definitely be at a disadvantage, but they can still receive a score. I think that is significant. Honestly, I also feel that a CCW holder could easily use OPEN as a test bed to see what works better for them from a purely technical skill related standpoint, as they could play around a lot with their carry gear and see how it affected their match results. Maybe try with a slide mounted optic for a while, try using a laser for a while, all kinds of stuff. Heck, they could probably use them in conjunction and see what worked best for which shooting situations. And again, they can do all of this and receive a score.

I do realize that only a tiny fraction of CCW holders use this kind of gear, and that the IDPA equipment restrictions are a bit closer to what most CCW holders use (at least the ones that don't just go for a j-frame in a pocket holster route, which is probably the largest percentage).

ETA: At one club match I shot, there were two shooters on a local (to that area) SWAT team. They ran their duty guns with lasers and WML's the whole match. Now, they didn't win OPEN, there was a legit M-class Open dude there that took care of that, but they were both very good shooters to watch, and they sure as heck weren't last in the division.

[PPGMD]

I remember my first USPSA match, which was a special classifier match. I thought that 6 stages, all classifiers would be an awesome way to get my feet wet. So I showed up with a gun, like 4 mags, and 2 mag pouches. I nearly fainted when I saw that the match had 5 classifier stages and 2 large (30 round) field courses. Now, I would have been fine if I'd decided to shoot Limited, but I had my heart set on Production. The Match Director loaned me an extra mag pouch, took me under his wing for the day, and I got through okay.

Pretty much this. If you aren't a douche people will help you out. Give you general stage plans and even coach you through the stages (yes I know it is prohibited but who cares it is a new shooter my goal is to get them to come back). If you don't have some obscure gun typically there will be someone there with extra magazines, and mag pouches.


Still though, I think one big thing that could have made IDPA an easier start is the smaller stages. I picked a classifier match to start with because I wanted to get my feet wet on smaller more straightforward stages. Those big 30 round courses did cause me a great deal of concern until I actually shot them.

When most clubs I've shot at did classifier matches, the non-classifier stages were optional. But typically since the classifier stages are so easy to setup they have more time to do an awesome stage or two.

[cclaxton]

By
Cody - My intention it not to pick on you, it's simply to point out something that seems really askew. You defend IDPA like it's your first born son. IDPA is not a person or your dog, it's a game. There's no need to jump in and try to defend it against every person that says something negative about it .... you can let some stuff go.

You are right....I can and do let some stuff go. I can let more go. Perhaps I come across more passionate in writing. But I do have my issues with IDPA as well. I see more issues now that I am MD.

I got my hands full for tomorrows match...full 6 stages and 5 stage BUG match after.
Cody


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[Mr_White]

...they will definitely be at a disadvantage, but they can still receive a score. I think that is significant.

I agree, it is hugely significant to me. If I want to use certain gear that isn't as effective at producing points per second as gear I could be using, that is on me. There is a basic equality in being able to post an official score the same as everyone else.


I also feel that a CCW holder could easily use OPEN as a test bed to see what works better for them from a purely technical skill related standpoint, as they could play around a lot with their carry gear and see how it affected their match results.

Again, I totally agree, and I believe what you express was one of the core ideas IPSC was founded on - to use competition find out what techniques and equipment worked 'best'.


I got my hands full for tomorrows match...full 6 stages and 5 stage BUG match after.
Cody

Good luck with your matches tomorrow Cody. Have a safe and fun time!

[gtmtnbiker98]

Cody - My intention it not to pick on you, it's simply to point out something that seems really askew. You defend IDPA like it's your first born son. IDPA is not a person or your dog, it's a game. There's no need to jump in and try to defend it against every person that says something negative about it .... you can let some stuff go.
Amen.

[Desertrat]

I won't renew my membership.....tired of their egotistical attitudes. I'll stick with silhouette, where the object is fun, skill, and comraderie.
Adios IDPA.

[Luke]

Holy thread bump batman! Since everyone is bashing idpa I guess I'll play too. I do love to complain!

I wanted to shoot it like I carry 99% of the time. IWB with my shirt 100% covering my gat and mag. This was a small local match and they pitched a fit. I have electronic ear pro and I remember shooting one of the first stages and hearing this lady (who looked just like Hilary Clinton! And that INFURIATED me even more) talk all kinds of trash about how I can't shoot like that and I have to have proper concealment gear. She was also one of the head people's wife. I think it is a JOKE!!! I've NEVER seen anyone in the wild carry wearing a $60 beretta vest.. But if I were my Real life legit carry gear to a match that is supposed to be all about concealment.. I think that is ok.

If IDPA were free and they supplied the ammo I still wouldn't show up.


Man that feels good. I haven't gotten to complain all day.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

At today's IDPA match in TX, we ditched concealment because it was too hot. The match director is a national match director, so he's flexible for TX heat reality.
Since we have open carry coming (which was univerally thought to be stupid by match participants) we made that a laughing concession. I suggested we needed a Starbucks stage. Also, folks shoot here with shirts all the time and since we have highly placed organization folks in our group, that woman is an idiot to say that there is a necessary gear requirement.

We have a great time - it's all the club. Another local club self-destructed when a set of DB officers took over.

[Edwin]

At today's IDPA match in TX, we ditched concealment because it was too hot. The match director is a national match director, so he's flexible for TX heat reality.

We did this today too.

[MGW]

I've shot local matches with a IWB and t-shirt before. No one cared. I did get a thumbs down when I asked to shoot from appendix though. Didn't hurt to ask.

[cclaxton]

There is absolutely no restriction on using a T-shirt or button-down cover shirt or whatever covers up the gun and mags. The requirements are that 1) it be concealed, and 2) it be strong side holstered where the trigger is behind the center line drawn from the armpit straight down, and 3) that you be able draw and reholster without muzzling yourself (with some limited exceptions).

I understand the desire to train the way you carry, but safety and standardization is required to run any shooting sport. Talk to just about anybody who teaches concealed carry tactics and trains CC, and they all say that competitive pistol in IDPA or USPSA will improve your shooting skill, your safety practices, and your reaction times. Take the Rangemaster course, probably the best at concealed carry training, and they will tell you the same thing.

IDPA is not intended to be tactical training, but does practice basic use of cover and tactical priority. IDPA is a shooting discipline and through dedication and practice and match competition trains us at these fundamental skills.

Anyone participating in IDPA (or USPSA) will be a better shooter compared to those who don't, with some exceptions for professionals who can constantly train in special ops tactics and marksmanship. In my area many members are armed federal agents, who see IDPA and USPSA as a benefit and helps them maintain their skills.

And lastly, if you can't take some stupid banter from another shooter, maybe you need to consider developing a thicker skin.

Cody Claxton
IDPA Area Coordinator, VA,MD,DC

[JodyH]

"Maybe you need to consider developing thicker skin"... oh the irony.

[orionz06]

Wasn't gonna be the one to say it...

[JMS]

Ironicles of Narnia

[KeeFus]

"Maybe you need to consider developing thicker skin"... oh the irony.

^^^. LOL!

[cclaxton]

"Maybe you need to consider developing thicker skin"... oh the irony.
Did the rest of my posting just vanish?
Cody

[Peally]

It's a sport, it's got rules, and sometimes they're really stupid rules (*cough* FAULT LINES AND RELOADS *cough*). It is what it is, I definitely prefer USPSA but since IDPA is really heavy in my area for some reason I'll continue shooting with buddies and having fun kicking everyone else's ass as a measly club match :D

Neither is training for jack diddly, but any competition is a good benchmark for skill with fundamentals. USPSA has the gamers and IDPA has the timmys, just shoot with cool people and it doesn't really matter.

[MGW]

It's a sport, it's got rules, and sometimes they're really stupid rules (*cough* FAULT LINES AND RELOADS *cough*). It is what it is, I definitely prefer USPSA but since IDPA is really heavy in my area for some reason I'll continue shooting with buddies and having fun kicking everyone else's ass as a measly club match :D

Neither is training for jack diddly, but any competition is a good benchmark for skill with fundamentals. USPSA has the gamers and IDPA has the timmys, just shoot with cool people and it doesn't really matter.

Great points. I definitely wouldn't take the time to go shoot these matches if I didn't like the guys I shot with.

My local range is leased out almost every weekend for classes so finding time to shoot is difficult at times. I work dry fire at home almost every day. I treat shooting IDPA on the weekends as practice. It helps me to identify holes in my training and to practice things I work in in dryfire. I'm not creative enough to think up a lot of different dry fire drills so I incorporate different skills I struggle with into dryfire time.

[orionz06]

IDPA is not intended to be tactical training, but does practice basic use of cover and tactical priority.

It practices the basics of standing beside a barrel.

[cclaxton]

Here is a stage I designed that helps shooters understand what "behind low cover" actually feels like, as opposed to knees and feet and legs sticking out the sides.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1BzHByqOZf-NXiEB-x-I_BNCTiJ8TJ4JjLcFzOeNftbc/edit?usp=sharing

Here is another stage I designed to teach people not to leave cover and cross open hallways without a loaded gun. The new rules allow for reloading down a hallway or in a room once targets are engaged and to reload along cover. Note there is a "doorway" to the right at the end of the hallway that is not clear in the diagram.
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1AqSarakBch1iyLn1ozWPjBUkjLbjnG-n44szXPwfHPY/edit?usp=sharing

Notice I put barrels at shooting positions to keep shooters from crowding cover. It is a lot more than standing next to a barrel.
The new rules have given a lot more flexibility in stage design. I don't claim that IDPA is tactical training, but at least it requires shooters to engage with basic use of cover, reloading behind cover, and engaging targets in priority from cover or in the open. That is not a slight on USPSA...just to be clear.

If people want real tactical training, there are plenty of resources available to go train. Green Ops, Langdon Tactical, Rangemaster, Academi, etc, etc.

But for $15-25 and 2-8 hours of time, IDPA is a great way to practice defensive scenarios in between tactical trainings.

Cody

[orionz06]

Use of cover is still judged from the wrong side, aside from arbitrary judging.

Stages do look really fun, but they're just games. I think you're expecting a bit much from it. Swimming at the Y ain't seal training.

[cclaxton]

Use of cover is still judged from the wrong side, aside from arbitrary judging.

Stages do look really fun, but they're just games. I think you're expecting a bit much from it. Swimming at the Y ain't seal training.
We have had this discussion before.
Under new rules the Scorekeeper is supposed to line-up and make the cover calls, although the Primary SO can as well. But the point of that was to have a separate judge on cover.

The rules on cover are no arbitrary. They are clearly defined in the IDPA rulebook. I am guessing what you really meant was that the SO's judgement on when a person is out of cover is not consistent. In some cases this can be an issue. We are working to fix that by coaching SO's on the rule and making sure they understand why it must be judged consistently. Even then, it's not perfect. Even in USPSA RSO's have to make judgement calls. Like an umpire in baseball, sometimes they call balls strikes and strikes balls. In the end it all averages out as long as they are doing the job to the best of their abilities. That is where coaching comes in. That is one of the reasons I enjoy being the Area Coordinator...I can coach and coach the coaches.

Cody

[orionz06]

No, I mean viewing cover from behind isn't effective.

[Peally]

Cover calls are why I likely won't be shooting anything above IDPA club matches from now on (two more majors this year). From bay to bay you may have a cover hawk or you may have blatant cover violations not called. The rule itself is straightforward, but it's enforcement is hugely arbitrary.

Again, a game like USPSA, warts and all.

Now I know the USPSA board isn't exactly magical, but I often wonder if IDPA was a "public entity" if there'd be cool improvements and innovations to the sport.

[cclaxton]

Cover calls are why I likely won't be shooting anything above IDPA club matches from now on (two more majors this year). From bay to bay you may have a cover hawk or you may have blatant cover violations not called. The rule itself is straightforward, but it's enforcement is hugely arbitrary.

Again, a game like USPSA, warts and all.

Now I know the USPSA board isn't exactly magical, but I often wonder if IDPA was a "public entity" if there'd be cool improvements and innovations to the sport.
Peally,
May I ask you to consider that it is actually people like you who should be demanding consistency at IDPA matches, sanctioned or not. MD's need this feedback. Getting consistency within a bay at a sanctioned match is still a step in the right direction. The next step is to make sure it is consistent for every SO. That takes coaching and providing feedback. We need people like you to help...just something to consider.

Thanks,
Cody

[Peally]

I give people like you huge props for working the sports, and I do send emails once in a while if it's a major match and a blatant issue, but there's still rules that need to be clarified or changed. I've run enough matches and RO'd enough to know it's not what I enjoy (I like to shoot guns, beat people, and bask in the sweet sweet glory) so aside from random feedback I won't be changing the beast from the inside.

I'll keep dumping money into club matches and IDPA memberships since we've got some great guys running fun local matches (same ROs means consistency and I quickly bitch about inconsistent calls), but for majors I'll pinch my pennies for an occasional USPSA match. The rules and resulting frustration get in the way of what I'm personally looking for in a big and pricey pistol match I need to drive 6 hours to make. I started shooting in IDPA and I'll keep doing so simply due to my area but I shoot both sports simply as a skill gauge and something to do on weekends.

Now if IDPA had a grand master class you could classify into... once I hit Master I'm going to be a sad panda, yet now that I've hit A class I feel like I've barely scratched the surface :D

[PPGMD]

LOL this thread is still alive.

[Peally]

I clicks what I sees in the "What's New" list ;)

[Co Th G]

By US, I mean the handgun shooting community and industry generally. I have no problem with people providing feedback in a respectful manner. It is the ridiculing and derogatory remarks that don't help. If you want to suggest that IDPA needs to change certain things, then just do that in a positive manner. And, some here have said exactly that IDPA should be avoided and USPSA is the only way. Some here have gone beyond that.

Participants in IDPA are building their skills, supporting the industry by buying products, enjoying the competition, and growing in their knowledge. If they want to go further, they move to USPSA and tactical training classes that are more practical. IDPA doesn't claim to be the be-all and end-all, but the place to begin.
Cody

So, you admit that the average IDPA shooter is inferior to the typical USPSA shooter.