Why do I shoot high with a Glock 19 at 25 yds?

[ASH556]

Hey folks, some of you are familiar with my M&P Saga and with that still up in the air (pistol on its 3rd trip back to Smith, waiting to hear from them) and having a Vickers Advanced Pistol Marksmanship class on my schedule for May, I'm beginning to get antsy about nailing down my pistols. The Glock 19 was/is my next go-to, but I find myself consistently shooting 3-4 inches high at 25 yds with it. I'm thinking it must be some sort of a grip issue because it happens across multiple different G19's. My grip is high, thumbs forward. POA-POI at 7 yds, but by 10 yds it's starting to drift up and by 25 it's 3-4 inches above POA. Sometimes it's high and left at distance too, but I understand the left to be a trigger press issue. Whatever I'm doing, though, I'm doing consistently, because I get roughly 4 inch groups at 25 yds standing free hand. The issue is mitigated with a Glock 17 and disappears with my M&P.

[JV_]

Have you bench the gun to see if the sights are properly setup for the POA/POI that you're expecting?

[_JD_]

Are you looking over the gun to try and see your hits at distance? That can cause shots to go high. If you're shooting a target in some color other than black switch to a black 8-10 pice of paper or black bullseye target so you can't see the hits and shoot a string and see if your hits go lower.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

[BN]

The Glock 19 was/is my next go-to, but I find myself consistently shooting 3-4 inches high at 25 yds with it. POA-POI at 7 yds,

If a pistol is sighted in to hit POA-POI at 7 yards it will shoot high at 25 yards. Your sights will need to be adjusted to hit POA-POI at 25 yards and it will still hit very close at 7 yards. What sights do you have on the G-19?

[JHC]

As JV noted.

Quite a few of our Glocks impact high at 25 yards and need a taller front sight to get POA=POI. Very common phenom.

[ASH556]

None of them have been my Glocks, so the sights have varied. Mostly they have been the factory plastic white outline sights on range rentals and a buddy's brand new Gen 4. Another belonged to a fellow shooter that I didn't know at a local indoor range. He was kind enough to let me shoot his and it had TFO's on it. I did bench that pistol and it shot high right. I didn't look that closely at the sights, but he told me he had them drifted to account for his shooting left. Here's the 10 shot benched group @ 25yds:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/12239956014_4fa6417fb5_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239956014/)
Untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/12239956014/) by ASH556 (http://www.flickr.com/people/87859750@N03/), on Flickr

[littlejerry]

Both of my gen 3 and 4 19s are 3-4 inches high at 25 yards with standard height sights. Warrens with a .245 front requires "driving the dot" at 25.

[ASH556]

Both of my gen 3 and 4 19s are 3-4 inches high at 25 yards with standard height sights. Warrens with a .245 front requires "driving the dot" at 25.

So it sounds like it's a sight height (hardware not software) issue. Anyone with experience with Trijicon HD's on a G19? Where do those hit @ 25yds?

[GJM]

Hilton Yam's 10-8 website also suggests that many Glock 19 pistols hit 3-4 inches high at 25 yards. That is also my experience. Hilton and Heinie offer front sights in .215, .235 and .245. "Standard" is .215, but I run a .235 on my Glock 17 and 19 pistols, and a .245 on a 34.

[JMS]

If it's a simple sight-sizing thing, as seems likely, there's an equation to help narrow which front sight height might be more appropriate....

http://www.dawsonprecision.com/images/Instructions/FrontSightHeight.pdf

EDIT: Speaking of 10-8, they have their own suggestions, but it presupposes a 10-8 rear. See bottom of the page....

http://www.10-8performance.com/glock-front-sight/


So how are you supposed to know what to put on the front of your gun to match the rear sight you got from us? Currently the simplest answer is to leave your existing front sight in place, shoot it at 25 yards with your new 10-8 rear in place and print a group for elevation. Measure your existing front sight, and using the .007" of front sight = 1" at 25 yards equation (I know, no one said there'd be math...), figure out how much taller or shorter you need to go.

[GJM]

I believe the Heinie, 10-8 and Warren rear sights are the same height.

[tomr]

10-8 sells a "try" sight. Costs about 10 bucks. Its tall and plastic. You attach it in usual way. File and shoot till you achieve POA/POI goal. Then take it off, measure and order a proper front sight of that height. Works like a charm.

[LSP552]

The vast majority of Glocks I've owned shot high.

Ken

[Josh Runkle]

So it sounds like it's a sight height (hardware not software) issue. Anyone with experience with Trijicon HD's on a G19? Where do those hit @ 25yds?

With the caveat that every gun and sight set is different, my Gen4 19 has Trijicon standard NS and shoots POA/POI at about 8 yards. (About 25 feet) it shoots about 1-2 in high with 115gr at 25 yards.

I actually prefer it this way for self-defense. Here's my thinking: in self-defense, if I am so close that I need to shoot and have ample target area, I might not really rely on sights at all. If I felt the need to shoot a target 75 feet away, then generally, it'd be in haste and a 6"x6" target area might be more appropriate. If I needed a precise shot at that distance, I know my offsets, or hopefully, could close some distance to make the shot, or lengthen the distance to try to get away. The only time I would feel the "pressure" of shooting POA/POI into something the size of a one inch square would be beyond incredibly rare, but if it was a shooting solution that was ever required, needing to do it at say, 5 yards is much more likely from a "take the shot RFN" perspective than from a 25yard target. Example: if a family member is taken hostage and is at 5 yards, I'd probably take the shot. If they were at 25 yards, I'd either use my known offsets if my confidence were high enough, or, more likely, try to close the distance. Even if I could shoot POA/POI at 25 yards, the cone of deviation is large at that distance, and the reduction in skill level under these circumstances is well-documented, poor hit ratio performance is documented (despite how people might project on the internets) and it is generally documented that while hit ratios may go up in the well trained, confidence may actually go down for a "tougher" shot.

Using this reasoning, it's less likely that I would need to take or be able to take or confident enough to take an immediate precision shot at 25 yards. What is much more likely is that knowing and practicing offsets at 25 yards is almost equally useful as having your gun shoot POA/POI at 25, and it is much more useful to be able to put rounds into a 3/4" target at 3-7 yards, as a precision shot at that distance, while also, extremely unlikely, is much more useful. Cone of deviation is smaller, confidence is higher, etc, etc.

I am not advocating "losing" or "depreciating" skills at 25 yards, simply advocating the larger usefulness of precision at closer distances.

Hence, I don't think that the sight issues are at all a problem, in fact, I see them to be a positive. All just depends upon your perspective.

[ASH556]

With the caveat that every gun and sight set is different, my Gen4 19 has Trijicon standard NS and shoots POA/POI at about 8 yards. (About 25 feet) it shoots about 1-2 in high with 115gr at 25 yards.

I actually prefer it this way for self-defense. Here's my thinking: in self-defense, if I am so close that I need to shoot and have ample target area, I might not really rely on sights at all. If I felt the need to shoot a target 75 feet away, then generally, it'd be in haste and a 6"x6" target area might be more appropriate. If I needed a precise shot at that distance, I know my offsets, or hopefully, could close some distance to make the shot, or lengthen the distance to try to get away. The only time I would feel the "pressure" of shooting POA/POI into something the size of a one inch square would be beyond incredibly rare, but if it was a shooting solution that was ever required, needing to do it at say, 5 yards is much more likely from a "take the shot RFN" perspective than from a 25yard target. Example: if a family member is taken hostage and is at 5 yards, I'd probably take the shot. If they were at 25 yards, I'd either use my known offsets if my confidence were high enough, or, more likely, try to close the distance. Even if I could shoot POA/POI at 25 yards, the cone of deviation is large at that distance, and the reduction in skill level under these circumstances is well-documented, poor hit ratio performance is documented (despite how people might project on the internets) and it is generally documented that while hit ratios may go up in the well trained, confidence may actually go down for a "tougher" shot.

Using this reasoning, it's less likely that I would need to take or be able to take or confident enough to take an immediate precision shot at 25 yards. What is much more likely is that knowing and practicing offsets at 25 yards is almost equally useful as having your gun shoot POA/POI at 25, and it is much more useful to be able to put rounds into a 3/4" target at 3-7 yards, as a precision shot at that distance, while also, extremely unlikely, is much more useful. Cone of deviation is smaller, confidence is higher, etc, etc.

I am not advocating "losing" or "depreciating" skills at 25 yards, simply advocating the larger usefulness of precision at closer distances.

Hence, I don't think that the sight issues are at all a problem, in fact, I see them to be a positive. All just depends upon your perspective.

See, I look at it this way:

I run a 100 yd zero with my RDS on my carbine. I know that at 50 yds I need to hold about 1" high and at 25yds, I need to hold about 2" high to account for the height over bore. I'd rather my sights be more precise at distance and use hold-offs closer. It's much easier to tell a 2" hold-off at 10 or 12 yards than at 25 or 50, especially when we're talking a pistol with post and notch sights. A low probability shot at distance is easier to miss the further away it gets. I'd rather not introduce the complexity of additional offsets if possible.

[Josh Runkle]

See, I look at it this way:

I run a 100 yd zero with my RDS on my carbine. I know that at 50 yds I need to hold about 1" high and at 25yds, I need to hold about 2" high to account for the height over bore. I'd rather my sights be more precise at distance and use hold-offs closer. It's much easier to tell a 2" hold-off at 10 or 12 yards than at 25 or 50, especially when we're talking a pistol with post and notch sights. A low probability shot at distance is easier to miss the further away it gets. I'd rather not introduce the complexity of additional offsets if possible.

You could probably guess that I run a 50m zero on my carbine :)

The likelihood that you will need to know the difference of one inch at 100 yards, and that you will be confident enough to make that shot, is less likely than the need, confidence and ability to do it closer. This doesn't suddenly mean that I can't find and use my offsets at distance if need be, it just means that I think the "necessity" is higher at closer distances. Also, a 4MOA dot is something like 4inches at 100yds. What's the difference of a few inches if you can't see it at distance because your dot's covering it? It makes more sense to me to use a zero for where you can see it, in addition to the higher likelihood of necessity.

That being said, no matter what zero you can use, if you can understand your offsets and hit your intended target quickly under stress, the point is moot.