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GJM
02-08-2014, 08:57 PM
I shot USPSA through the mid 90's, was a Limited A and Open B. Just did a look-up, and my last classifier was 8/11/968 (85.56%, not that it matters).

Fast forward, I shot one USPSA match in the spring, with a friend and PF member. Am in lower 48 for a bit, and have been able to get to some matches. Just renewed my USPSA membership.

It is very interesting. Round counts seem a lot higher than I remember, and to my knowledge I never shot a star, double star or polish plate rack like those featured prominently, and terrifyingly, in my match last month in Arizona. At least in Arizona, old guys with open guns can really shoot! The shooters around Havasu and Kingman, Arizona are super friendly.

Here is what is interesting. Right now, I am a stronger technical shooter than I was in the 90's -- as measuring my draw, reload, and accuracy. On stand and shoot stuff, like classifiers, I can shoot at the top of the pile with the open and limited shooters. However, on the 40-50 shot stages that seem common around here, my stand and shoot skills aren't translating into the same kind of performance. Perhaps part is that I am shooting Production, and reloading so much that I am about to mount a 5th and 6th mag pouch to supplement my 4 on my belt now. I just feel the experienced guys figure out stages faster than me, have better stage strategy, and shoot into and out of position WAY faster than I do now.

I am pretty excited to shoot more matches, to the extent it fits into my schedule. Like attending a course, I really like how shooting someone else's stage, in front of a bunch of people, on a timer with no do over, is stressful in a way that your own practice is not.

I am interested in what others are thinking about how USPSA is augmenting their PF style and/or more timmie training?

PPGMD
02-08-2014, 09:30 PM
40-50 shot stages? That isn't USPSA legal.

The last time I shot a club match, I found that the tended to learn toward hoser stages. Often due to shooters wanting to shoot more, and limitations of the range. So I often didn't do as well there, as I did at more major matches where I saw more longer distance and overall harder shots (with hard cover and no shoots).

JHC
02-08-2014, 09:36 PM
I've shot a couple of my local clubs USPSA matches but out of those 12 total stages, I think there was only one that was majority hoser. Most had a lot of very tight shots, many out to 15+ yards. But to the OPs point; same experience of technical marksmanship vs time efficient stage planning and raw speed of "movement to contact". It's pretty funny. Through my eyes I'm feeling like I'm flying through them; then when my time is read I'm so much slower than the decent performers its hysterical. A couple vids shot told the tale. ;)

GJM
02-08-2014, 09:38 PM
40-50 shot stages? That isn't USPSA legal.

Other than the classifier stage, each stage has been at or near the USPSA max limit of 30 something, but when you add in the various star, double stars, and polish plate racks -- often on the same stage, I am often shooting 40 plus rounds. What is the exact limit?

PPGMD
02-08-2014, 09:48 PM
Other than the classifier stage, each stage has been at or near the USPSA max limit of 30 something, but when you add in the various star, double stars, and polish plate racks -- often on the same stage, I am often shooting 40 plus rounds. What is the exact limit?

32 shots is the maximum for any course of fire (they have several types of courses of files, but I don't pay attention to those all that much).

Miss less noob? :p

I'm such an accuracy oriented shooter in USPSA that I will typically only rarely make a make up shot (and even then only on steel), and I still get 90+% of the points. I'm of the belief that unless there was a gross error in your aim, if you have time to evaluate your shot on paper you aren't moving fast enough. With that in mind I only carry four pouches and mostly so I can have more favorable reload points.

My scoring is typical "Two Alpha... Two Alpha..." I almost never meet Charlie Mike.

Dr. No
02-08-2014, 09:51 PM
You will find that most A class shooters can stand and shoot with the GM guys and be off only by fractions. The real difference comes in the field courses. Movement, entries, exits, transitions, etc are all going to be bigger factors in the game often than being able to rip off a .9 draw.

That's a lot of what I concentrated on when I was in FL :)

GJM
02-08-2014, 10:07 PM
You will find that most A class shooters can stand and shoot with the GM guys and be off only by fractions. The real difference comes in the field courses. Movement, entries, exits, transitions, etc are all going to be bigger factors in the game often than being able to rip off a .9 draw.

That's a lot of what I concentrated on when I was in FL :)

Shooting with Manny, I saw that big time. While I could shoot close to him on an individual shot, as we moved and transitioned he got further and further ahead.


1) Does USPSA, with its movement between positions, and its moving targets, make you a better prepared tactical shooter or just a better USPSA shooter?

2) How much one hand shooting is typical in USPSA? Neither of the last two matches I attended had a single one hand shot. Ever since first attending Rogers, my wife and I have devoted a significant amount of effort to one hand shooting.

3) Do you think match stress continues, and is a helpful stressor, or does it progressively fade as you do it more?

PPGMD
02-08-2014, 10:09 PM
3) Do you think match stress continues, and is a helpful stressor, or does it progressively fade as you do it more?

It is always there in my experience, but it goes from being a major issue to something really minor.

GJM
02-08-2014, 10:39 PM
32 shots is the maximum for any course of fire (they have several types of courses of files, but I don't pay attention to those all that much).

Miss less noob? :p

I'm such an accuracy oriented shooter in USPSA that I will typically only rarely make a make up shot (and even then only on steel), and I still get 90+% of the points. I'm of the belief that unless there was a gross error in your aim, if you have time to evaluate your shot on paper you aren't moving fast enough. With that in mind I only carry four pouches and mostly so I can have more favorable reload points.

My scoring is typical "Two Alpha... Two Alpha..." I almost never meet Charlie Mike.

Just looked at the match results from Havasu in January. Min shots for the stages were 36, 29, 34, 43, 10 (classifier).

PPGMD
02-08-2014, 11:05 PM
Just looked at the match results from Havasu in January. Min shots for the stages were 36, 29, 34, 43, 10 (classifier).

Well I checked, the rules do allow club and section/state matches to allow courses of fire over 32 rounds. But my understanding is that like shooting boxes it is discouraged. Which is why I never saw it at the matches I shot/shoot (except the specific high round count Outlaw matches).

1.2.1.3 Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

joshs
02-09-2014, 06:24 AM
1.2.1.3 Long Courses: in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. At any level match, course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

The no more than 8 rounds per position rule is often not followed in my experience.

GJM
02-09-2014, 07:35 AM
In this area, I think the match designers are open shooters, or designing matches for the open shooters -- with high round counts and lots of moving stuff. I am certainly not complaining, because the more different and difficult shooting tasks someone else designed, the better.

On the way home from the match I was reflecting on this, and came to the conclusion, that if your gun is reliable, platform is almost irrelevant in USPSA, until at the highest levels of competition, because the shooting is so varied, and movement so significant to the outcome, that specific platform attributes that seem so important to me get averaged out.

Dr. No
02-09-2014, 09:31 AM
Shooting with Manny, I saw that big time. While I could shoot close to him on an individual shot, as we moved and transitioned he got further and further ahead.

1) Does USPSA, with its movement between positions, and its moving targets, make you a better prepared tactical shooter or just a better USPSA shooter?

2) How much one hand shooting is typical in USPSA? Neither of the last two matches I attended had a single one hand shot. Ever since first attending Rogers, my wife and I have devoted a significant amount of effort to one hand shooting.

3) Do you think match stress continues, and is a helpful stressor, or does it progressively fade as you do it more?

Yup. That was one of the fascinating things I found out.. It was death by 1,000 cuts. .1 here, .15 here, .05 here ... and over a whole COF it added up to that 1.5-2 seconds I am always behind..

1. No. Movement/entries/etc have nothing to do with tactics. I suppose in a Michael Bay style run and gun battle setups might matter, but ... however those elements are some of the biggest factors in the action pistol games that incorporate movement.

2. One handed is rare in the sports. You will see it in classifiers or when match directors set up props that have to be held open. (See that a lot with ports that have a covering) One handed shooting is a good skill, but it is rarely used in tactical situations, IMO. It is used if you don't have a weapon mounted light, if you're using a shield, grasping a valuable item, or if you're injured. I don't dedicate more than 5-10% of my training time to that skill. It is part of our CQB qualification, with 6 SHO/6 WHO in one string of fire at 7 yards. It makes me stay proficient.

3. It definitely continues. It actually increases as you get better. You invest more time and effort into your training, you go further to matches, you want to succeed more and more. That pressure is self imposed and is difficult to deal with. The first year I shot Nationals I felt some pressure because I had invested a lot of time and money to go, but mostly I was having fun. The first time I shot with my entire team I felt a lot more because I wanted to prove myself. It was difficult to deal with..

If you are a contender to win there is definitely pressure. At that level (even in a state match) small mistakes can cost you the win. Often those matches are decided by 5-10 points.....

BN
02-09-2014, 09:37 AM
I've found stage design to be a localized issue. I've shot at a couple of clubs that had Area/Nationals quality stages at local club matches. Others, it looked like they backed up the truck and stopped real fast. Wherever the targets landed is where they stayed for the match. :)

GJM, you might load your mags all the way and shoot Limited Minor for fun.

I've shot competition for 30 plus years and I still have a small amount of match stress. Match stress increases for me when I shoot at places or types of shooting that are unfamiliar. That would include "the big match" as well as a different discipline.

littlejerry
02-09-2014, 09:46 AM
In this area, I think the match designers are open shooters, or designing matches for the open shooters -- with high round counts and lots of moving stuff. I am certainly not complaining, because the more different and difficult shooting tasks someone else designed, the better.

On the way home from the match I was reflecting on this, and came to the conclusion, that if your gun is reliable, platform is almost irrelevant in USPSA, until at the highest levels of competition, because the shooting is so varied, and movement so significant to the outcome, that specific platform attributes that seem so important to me get averaged out.

I think stage design varies from club to club. There are 3 major clubs around Atlanta and each has its own quirks or charm.

I do agree that platform is largely irrelevant. If the gun is reasonably accurate and doesn't choke you are good to go.

Ben Stoegger has an excellent book worth reading on action pistol/uspsa. He as much says that position entry/exit and movement are what separate good shooters from great.

Its one thing to shoot all A's on a stage. Its another thing to do it without ever actually stopping your feet.

BN
02-09-2014, 09:53 AM
1) Does USPSA, with its movement between positions, and its moving targets, make you a better prepared tactical shooter or just a better USPSA shooter?


Seems to me that there is a lot of moving going on in the police shootings you see on YouTube.

ToddG
02-09-2014, 10:15 AM
1. No. Movement/entries/etc have nothing to do with tactics. I suppose in a Michael Bay style run and gun battle setups might matter, but ... however those elements are some of the biggest factors in the action pistol games that incorporate movement.

I cannot tell you how happy I am to see people with both real LE experience and high level USPSA experience who recognize this. Far too often people try to justify setups, entries, footwork, etc. as "better combat" but it's all so specifically planned and, more to the point, very dependent on knowing in advance exactly where both you and the target will be when the moment to shoot comes.

I think the skills are "neat" and the few times I've got instruction on them were entertaining.

Thanks for the post, dude.

John Hearne
02-09-2014, 10:18 AM
Right now, I am a stronger technical shooter than I was in the 90's -- as measuring my draw, reload, and accuracy. On stand and shoot stuff, like classifiers, I can shoot at the top of the pile with the open and limited shooters. However, on the 40-50 shot stages that seem common around here, my stand and shoot skills aren't translating into the same kind of performance...I am interested in what others are thinking about how USPSA is augmenting their PF style and/or more timmie training?

While my experience with USPSA is more limited, I've observed many of the same things. One of my proudest shooting moments took place in 2008 when I showed up at the Sacramento, CA USPSA match. There was a guy shooting who was just an ass. He was either a M or GM and nitpicked the courses and was just a horrible sportsman. I had shown up with my P220, cleared my carry ammo, and shot the match. The classifier at that match was really short and required something fast and then something precise. When I shot the classifier, I beat him. It hurt his feelings so bad, that he reshot the stage twice to be able to beat my time. In all of the stages, this guy clearly was a better competitor than me. When it came down to raw technical shooting skill, the difference between us was fairly small.

FWIW, I don't see a dimes worth of difference between USPSA and IDPA as a training value. They both have pluses and minuses and by the time you average everything out, they're both as useful - just in different ways.

Matches have value for training, primarily from a value point. In theory, if you had a huge range, thousands of dollars of props, and someone to help you setup, you could have a better match. Since most of us don't have those resources, you're better off showing up and shooting someone else's stages and props. The ability to draw, shoot while moving, shoot moving props, shoot targets exposed for short time frames, etc. are the real value of competition.

Match stress is a different matter. Most of the stress will come from the novelty of the situation so the first or second time has the maximum value. Your first local match will be more stressful than your twentieth. Your first national will be more stressful than your tenth. There will be some secondary stress benefit from the ego risk you are taking as well. I suspect that the amount of stress in the ego risk will vary from person to person.

Finally, there is some value of seeing where you stand in the world of shooting ability. The first time folks show up for a match, they think they are good - that's why their there, to show everyone how good they are. Shooting someone else objective standards can really give you a fair view of where you stand in relation to others.

John Hearne
02-09-2014, 10:27 AM
very dependent on knowing in advance exactly where both you and the target will be when the moment to shoot comes.

Reitz related something similar to this about their experiences when competition based guys did training. When the competitive guys were told to clear the shoothouse, they'd ask how many threats, where are they, etc? His response, was "go find out." Once they didn't know how many and where, their speeds were no better than anyone else.

I would have to say that few competitor realize how much of their performance advantage comes from knowing the stage layout in advance and being able to develop a shooting plan in advance. When you start introducing shoot/no-shoot decisions into stages (blind stuff) everyone clusters together a lot more. I'm not saying there is no difference, those who shoot faster and accurate still do so, but the difference between first and last is a lot less.

The other ugly fact is that smarter people have more raw processing power than dumber people and processing on the fly will always go to the smarter person, all other things being equal.

ToddG
02-09-2014, 10:30 AM
I would have to say that few competitor realize how much of their performance advantage comes from knowing the stage layout in advance and being able to develop a shooting plan in advance.

If we're talking about guys who are really serious about competition, I'd have to disagree. Especially in USPSA where you can engage in a lot more decision making and planning, I think it's well understood that stage strategy is a huge factor and the folks who do it awesome have a serious advantage over the guys who don't. But then I'm a "don't" so it could just be an excuse I like to use. :cool:

PPGMD
02-09-2014, 10:59 AM
In this area, I think the match designers are open shooters, or designing matches for the open shooters -- with high round counts and lots of moving stuff. I am certainly not complaining, because the more different and difficult shooting tasks someone else designed, the better.

It is true, most of the shootings that participate in match directing tend to be shooters that have been there to longest and have switched to limited or open as their primary divisions.

OTOH most common moving target, swingers, aren't that hard, once you get a chance to practice them outside the match environment.


On the way home from the match I was reflecting on this, and came to the conclusion, that if your gun is reliable, platform is almost irrelevant in USPSA, until at the highest levels of competition, because the shooting is so varied, and movement so significant to the outcome, that specific platform attributes that seem so important to me get averaged out.

Definitely true. Though I would add that the shooter needs to be in tune with their gun, and sometimes a certain platform may not work for a particular shooter.


2. One handed is rare in the sports. You will see it in classifiers or when match directors set up props that have to be held open. (See that a lot with ports that have a covering)

Personally I actually like the fact that course designers have to think of a valid reason for people to be shooting SHO/WHO.


3. It definitely continues. It actually increases as you get better. You invest more time and effort into your training, you go further to matches, you want to succeed more and more. That pressure is self imposed and is difficult to deal with. The first year I shot Nationals I felt some pressure because I had invested a lot of time and money to go, but mostly I was having fun. The first time I shot with my entire team I felt a lot more because I wanted to prove myself. It was difficult to deal with..

If you are a contender to win there is definitely pressure. At that level (even in a state match) small mistakes can cost you the win. Often those matches are decided by 5-10 points.....

Only if you let it. If you have confidence in your skills and just go and have fun you will be surprised of the results you get. Granted I treat USPSA as a fun match, rather than one of the sports I dedicate practice time to. Also I sort of sand bag as I haven't shot a match that has a classifier in it in over two years.


I've found stage design to be a localized issue. I've shot at a couple of clubs that had Area/Nationals quality stages at local club matches. Others, it looked like they backed up the truck and stopped real fast. Wherever the targets landed is where they stayed for the match. :)


I think stage design varies from club to club. There are 3 major clubs around Atlanta and each has its own quirks or charm.

I got to agree about stage design. I also think it has to do with the ranges that the clubs have available. Clubs that have more space per a stage might design for elaborate stages, have longer shots, and typically have more props. Also clubs that are at ranges that allow them to setup the day before also have better stages as they have more than 1-2 hours to setup the entire match.

The guys over at USA have some pretty elaborate stage designs, but they have a ton of time to setup. They've told me that the month before the match they might build a stage a day.

Dr. No
02-09-2014, 11:06 AM
Reitz related something similar to this about their experiences when competition based guys did training. When the competitive guys were told to clear the shoothouse, they'd ask how many threats, where are they, etc? His response, was "go find out." Once they didn't know how many and where, their speeds were no better than anyone else.

I would have to say that few competitor realize how much of their performance advantage comes from knowing the stage layout in advance and being able to develop a shooting plan in advance. When you start introducing shoot/no-shoot decisions into stages (blind stuff) everyone clusters together a lot more. I'm not saying there is no difference, those who shoot faster and accurate still do so, but the difference between first and last is a lot less.

The other ugly fact is that smarter people have more raw processing power than dumber people and processing on the fly will always go to the smarter person, all other things being equal.

Their speeds were no better than anyone else because utilizing correct tactics (clearing by yourself, which is stupid anyway and incredibly dangerous) generally disregards time. Is it more important to pie a corner in 3 seconds versus 1.5 when I can't watch my own back? It is probably more important to pie a corner and pick up a threat, then identify whether it is a deadly force threat or not, give it verbal commands, and then proceed with lethal/less lethal/combative options. If you run into a real house and shoot 32 rounds and put down 16 bad guys by yourself ..... you are in a movie.

Competitors will almost always beat strict tacticians in shooting tests ... because they are better shooters. They perform at a higher level because they push themselves during competition and in practice. Competitors generally are completely clueless about tactics ... because they are not tacticians. They do not train in CQB techniques, with a team, using less lethal options, or doing threat evaluation (aside from white and brown). They do however possess an innate ability to make decisions at extremely high speed, as a result of performing at a high level and having to deal with problems while not slowing their pace.

As far as your shoot/no-shoot decision point - IDPA does this quite a bit with "hands" they move around a series of targets in order to make the shooter discriminate. This generally does not slow top shooters pace at all. Obviously this is not a true representation of threat evaluation that goes on in the real world, but ...

Completely agree on your last point. This works on both side of the house, but it is very apparent when things start to go sideways quickly.

Dr. No
02-09-2014, 11:09 AM
Only if you let it. If you have confidence in your skills and just go and have fun you will be surprised of the results you get. Granted I treat USPSA as a fun match, rather than one of the sports I dedicate practice time to. Also I sort of sand bag as I haven't shot a match that has a classifier in it in over two years.


So .... you're saying match pressure doesn't effect you because you're no where near a top contender and you don't take it seriously....


Might this be one of those "out of your lane" comments?

BN
02-09-2014, 11:24 AM
Quote Originally Posted by PPGMD View Post
Only if you let it. If you have confidence in your skills and just go and have fun you will be surprised of the results you get. Granted I treat USPSA as a fun match, rather than one of the sports I dedicate practice time to. Also I sort of sand bag as I haven't shot a match that has a classifier in it in over two years.


So .... you're saying match pressure doesn't effect you because you're no where near a top contender and you don't take it seriously....


Might this be one of those "out of your lane" comments?

I shoot mostly IDPA because that is what the local clubs shoot. At one of them, I am likely to be the top shooter much of the time. There are up to 10 or 12 people who show up that have the ability to win the match at any point in time, including 2 top level nationally know trainers. All here would recognize their names. I go in with no expectations of winning. My goals are to have fun and shoot a good match. I win often and am in the top 5 if I don't have the best score. There's a little zen going on. ;)

PPGMD
02-09-2014, 11:24 AM
So .... you're saying match pressure doesn't effect you because you're no where near a top contender and you don't take it seriously....


Might this be one of those "out of your lane" comments?

I am top contender in other shooting sports.

One of the biggest thing that takes the stress off me, is that I don't pay attention to the score, other than making sure that it is right, while I am shooting. I don't calculate hit factors, stage times, nor points until I am done shooting the match. The people that worry that they need to shoot a score of X to win, are the ones most likely to not shoot that score. Shoot the best match that you can and let the chips fall where they may. If you don't enjoy shooting the match, it becomes work and work sucks.

I didn't invent this idea on my own, it is based in the techniques from the book With Winning in Mind.

Granted after the shooting is done you will see me at a table with my score sheets and my phone's calculator app. I do want to make sure that everything is entered correctly.

GJM
02-09-2014, 11:38 AM
There are some jerks everywhere, as it sounds like this GM was. The folks I have met at these two local matches, were to the person, extremely polite and helpful. John, no idea how well that GM could really shoot, but I think it is a common fantasy of a tactical guy to think they can outshoot a GM. My historical experience, and confirmed in the last few years, is that guys don't become A, M and GM in USPSA without having excellent skills.

Bill Rogers believes there is a lot more one hand shooting in real fights, than we practice for. As a dog owner, frequently with a leash in my hand, I completely get this. Leaving aside that you might be injured, or holding something with one hand in a fight, so many of my friends have been injured in life, and forced to carry with just one healthy arm, that I take those skills seriously.

Finally, I have a theory that more of the C and D class shooters seem to be tactically oriented, and as shooters progress in USPSA, they often are more focused on the game than defense. I base this on both my observations of people arriving at and leaving matches, and my questioning about carry guns and holsters. Frank Proctor, apparently a retired Delta guy, and USPSA GM, is my hero model for a guy that has technical shooting skills and tactical ability. Since at the end of the day, I prioritize my ability to protect my pack, especially from a wild animal attack, the defensive part will always be most important.

Dr. No
02-09-2014, 12:02 PM
I shoot mostly IDPA because that is what the local clubs shoot. At one of them, I am likely to be the top shooter much of the time. There are up to 10 or 12 people who show up that have the ability to win the match at any point in time, including 2 top level nationally know trainers. All here would recognize their names. I go in with no expectations of winning. My goals are to have fun and shoot a good match. I win often and am in the top 5 if I don't have the best score. There's a little zen going on. ;)

Shooting local matches has nothing to do with National titles.

Ask Nils Johannsen if he feels match pressure. Or Max Michel. Or Daniel Horner. They all do. They all have learned to manage it through experience, training, and mental preparation. Managing stress does not mean it goes away. The degree of stress one might feel is different for everyone, but to disregard it completely is silly.

BN
02-09-2014, 12:40 PM
Shooting local matches has nothing to do with National titles.

Ask Nils Johannsen if he feels match pressure. Or Max Michel. Or Daniel Horner. They all do. They all have learned to manage it through experience, training, and mental preparation. Managing stress does not mean it goes away. The degree of stress one might feel is different for everyone, but to disregard it completely is silly.

The only place I have a chance of National titles is in SSR in IDPA. I have a couple of second places in Master. :(

People will handle match pressure in different ways. My way is to go into a match with absolutely no expectations to win. I completely ignore scores or times until my match is completely over. I hate to squad with people who tell me what my time is and how fast others shot the stage.

I had a period of about a year where I won over all best score at every local IDPA match I entered. It would have been pretty easy to put pressure on myself to continue the streak. Instead I went into each match with no expectations. I shot my match and let the chips fall.

I'm not sure how I would do if I was in the very top levels where the squad talks about scores and keeps a running track of who is ahead. It would be hard for me to ignore that talk and just shoot my match.

ToddG
02-09-2014, 01:05 PM
Ask Nils Johannsen if he feels match pressure. Or Max Michel. Or Daniel Horner. They all do.

They all have sponsors, reputations, even jobs dependent on their success.

Most folks don't. No real world consequences means a lot less match stress.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Dr. No
02-09-2014, 01:11 PM
They all have sponsors, reputations, even jobs dependent on their success.

Most folks don't. No real world consequences means a lot less match stress.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

Very true. I guess it all depends on how seriously you take your shooting and if you really want to be a top dog.

Dr. No
02-09-2014, 01:13 PM
The only place I have a chance of National titles is in SSR in IDPA. I have a couple of second places in Master. :(

People will handle match pressure in different ways. My way is to go into a match with absolutely no expectations to win. I completely ignore scores or times until my match is completely over. I hate to squad with people who tell me what my time is and how fast others shot the stage.

I had a period of about a year where I won over all best score at every local IDPA match I entered. It would have been pretty easy to put pressure on myself to continue the streak. Instead I went into each match with no expectations. I shot my match and let the chips fall.

I'm not sure how I would do if I was in the very top levels where the squad talks about scores and keeps a running track of who is ahead. It would be hard for me to ignore that talk and just shoot my match.

Would you feel pressure if there was a $25,000 prize for winning first?

BN
02-09-2014, 03:40 PM
Would you feel pressure if there was a $25,000 prize for winning first?

Absolutely! I'm a big frog in a small pond. :) I believe that in order to win, you must be able to handle match pressure. In my small way, I have learned how to handle it at local matches. That's also the reason I haven't done better at National matches. There is more on the line at "THE BIG MATCH". I believe I could do better at big matches if I shot more of them.

Tamara
02-09-2014, 03:40 PM
Would you feel pressure if there was a $25,000 prize for winning first?

Nah, because I know that I have absolutely no realistic chance of winning it, barring, like, a hundred and fifty cases of food poisoning from bad catered lunches or something. ;)

ToddG
02-09-2014, 05:03 PM
Bill Rogers believes there is a lot more one hand shooting in real fights, than we practice for. As a dog owner, frequently with a leash in my hand, I completely get this. Leaving aside that you might be injured, or holding something with one hand in a fight, so many of my friends have been injured in life, and forced to carry with just one healthy arm, that I take those skills seriously.

Is it important to have 1H skills? Yes. But I think the Rogers approach is far more extreme than real world data suggests in terms of training efficiency.

I walk my dog plenty. If I get into a gun fight in the middle of a stroll, the dog's leash is getting dropped. The #1 purpose for 1H shooting for me is that I might have a light in my support hand because I don't personally like any of the complicated 2H light techniques as much as just shooting SHO and running the light WHO independently.

People get shot in the hands doing FOF training all the time and that seems to be the #1 justification I hear for why 1H/wounded shooting is so important and "prevalent." But there are reasons for it happening so much in FOF... most of which revolve around the fact that two trained individuals in two-handed centered shooting stances aiming high COM are basically aiming at the gun and hands of the other guy without intending to. But when you look at actual LE fights, for instance, the number of times a wound to the arm/hand forces someone to shoot 1H are fairly rare. The number of times your opponent(s) are likely to be in a combat stance firing aimed shots at your upper COM are all but zero.

So rare that I'd ignore the possibility? Not at all. But rare enough that I'm more likely to spend a lot less than 50% of my training effort on it.

PPGMD
02-09-2014, 06:09 PM
Nah, because I know that I have absolutely no realistic chance of winning it, barring, like, a hundred and fifty cases of food poisoning from bad catered lunches or something. ;)

I was thinking a few cases of Vodka for the pre-match party.

Though my list is a bit smaller.

joshs
02-09-2014, 06:41 PM
Just looked at the match results from Havasu in January. Min shots for the stages were 36, 29, 34, 43, 10 (classifier).

Is Havasu a popular retirement destination? I've never seen that many seniors and super seniors in one match. I don't know if you've used them yet, but there are now classifier calculators online so you don't have to wait for the next update to know your percentage. I've only used classifiercalc.com, and it has always been within a few tenths of the correct percentage. The new 13 series classifiers aren't available yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

jetfire
02-09-2014, 08:23 PM
The only place I have a chance of National titles is in SSR in IDPA. I have a couple of second places in Master.

Sort of related, SSR in IDPA is a scary division. It has the largest number of active DMs and a ton of pretty good Masters as well. At indoor Nats in 2 weeks there will be 3 DMs shooting for Boss Crown.

GJM
02-09-2014, 08:48 PM
Is Havasu a popular retirement destination? I've never seen that many seniors and super seniors in one match. I don't know if you've used them yet, but there are now classifier calculators online so you don't have to wait for the next update to know your percentage. I've only used classifiercalc.com, and it has always been within a few tenths of the correct percentage. The new 13 series classifiers aren't available yet.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2

Havasu is a very popular retirement area. I have never seen so many "old guys" that shoot that well. Of course, to my "horror," I realized that this year I qualify as a USPSA "senior."

Where is there a resource that quickly explains for a given stage's hit factor, how to calculate the relationship between time and points, as in what is the delta in time as to where an A or C makes more sense?

JAD
02-09-2014, 09:31 PM
. Of course, to my "horror," I realized that this year I qualify as a USPSA "senior."
?

That didn't occur to you when you were painting your front sight orange?

joshs
02-09-2014, 09:47 PM
Where is there a resource that quickly explains for a given stage's hit factor, how to calculate the relationship between time and points, as in what is the delta in time as to where an A or C makes more sense?

Short version: higher hit factor means shoot faster. Just flip the hit factor from points per second to seconds per point to figure out the time affect of dropping points. However, I see lots of people that give up easy points on high hit factor stages. It's almost never beneficial to shoot anything but As on close range open targets. The time it takes to nearly guarantee an A is very little on these targets. I generally find that the best strategy that works for me is shooting 90-95% of the points available. When I shoot faster, the wheels tend to fall off on at least a few stages, and shooting slower to get more points doesn't result in better hit factor.

GJM
02-09-2014, 10:07 PM
Thanks. So to check my math -- a stage with 60 points done in 6 seconds has a HF of 10. Flipping it, one point equals .10. Using Production minor scoring, one C instead of an A is a wash at .20? For a 5 HF, the same C is a wash at .40, and for a 7.5 HF, the wash is at .30 for that hypothetical C?

joshs
02-09-2014, 10:15 PM
Thanks. So to check my math -- a stage with 60 points done in 6 seconds has a HF of 10. Flipping it, one point equals .10. Using Production minor scoring, one C instead of an A is a wash at .20? For a 5 HF, the same C is a wash at .40, and for a 7.5 HF, the wash is at .30 for that hypothetical C?

Correct.

JeffJ
02-10-2014, 09:22 AM
Really, shooting minor, and speaking pretty generally a C is going to be a best a wash, and usually a loss. The only time I might (on purpose :rolleyes:) drift towards the C zone is a really tight no shoot/hardcover shot where the difference isn't A vs C but A vs penalty. That and really you can shoot an A as fast as a C, as long as you "do better" and "don't suck so much" which is my usual problem.

LtDave
02-13-2014, 07:58 PM
I've been shooting USPSA with the local club here in Payson, AZ for about 8 years now. Normally we shoot 4 stages each match with total round count of about 100 rounds. They will mix up low and high round count stages to keep it to 100 rounds. Round count went down during the ammo drought. We have a fair number of shooters who don't reload. We range from maybe 10-12 shooters to 30 plus, depending on weather. We get more in the summer when it is real hot down in Phoenix. Lots of us old farts here too, but probably not as many as Havasu.

Dr. No
02-13-2014, 08:45 PM
Wow. We are spoiled here in Austin, TX. A "small" match for us is usually 20-30 people. One of the biggest was close to 100. We usually do 6 stages, about 150 rounds. Good stuff!