View Full Version : 9mm HST3 124gr +P ATK Bare Gel testing
I was looking at the ATK gel testing and in Bare Gel the HST 124+P P = 10inches ?
I recently bought a 9mm and was wanting to use / try this load.? ( if I can find it LOL)
Wondering what specs the Dr. got when he tested the HST 124+P
DocGKR
02-08-2014, 11:22 AM
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1624-New-9-mm-ammo-testing
P9HST3 works fine.
I should of looked harder!
Thanks again
Symmetry
02-08-2014, 06:45 PM
I prefer the 147gr load for three reasons. It has a deeper hollow point cavity which is more resistant to plugging, the expanded bullet is longer than an expanded 124gr bullet and bullets often tumble in tissue, and it is faster shooting than 124gr+P.
A lot of guys here use the 147gr HST.
I prefer the +P 124gr myself ! For the extra slide velocity and reliability . I want my pistol to feed! I also keep hearing the P30 prefers the 124loads best. (I do have 2 different 147 ball loads to test.)
Although the 124gr HST +P only P 10inches in BG per ATK testing
It did well in Heavy Clothing
124+P P= 13.00 EX = .610
147gr P= 12.50 EX = .690
They both had the same amount of P in Auto Glass.
I do know that Todd uses the same load also. But I don't know his reasoning behind it.
Chuck Haggard
02-09-2014, 03:45 PM
I will carry 147gr, but I prefer the 124gr +Ps due to the bit of extra boost those tend to give the gun in slide function when things aren't perfect, like if you are shooting one handed from the ground with an imperfect grip.
It's what's in my gun right now, but after rereading the new ammo thread I am on the hunt for some 135g stuff.
A lot of guys here use the 147gr HST.
I prefer the +P 124gr myself ! For the extra slide velocity and reliability . I want my pistol to feed! I also keep hearing the P30 prefers the 124loads best. (I do have 2 different 147 ball loads to test.)
Some P30s tend to be stiff when brand new and short stroke on powder-puff 115gr loads. After the RSA breaks in, they're usually fine eating anything. So, the recommendation is to shoot some ammo on the stout end of the spectrum for the first 500 rounds if the gun exhibits problems with soft 115gr loads.
It will run 147gr just fine. 147gr will also give an strong recoil impulse to help the slide along in bad situations, if that's a concern. Remember, the P7 is not suppose to be fired with 147gr exactly because of that strong impulse, yet it can shoot 124gr +p. So, I don't think you're gaining anything reliability wise with the 124gr.
The 124gr and 147gr HST are for all measurable purposes equivalent. At this point, just go with what gives you a warm and fuzzy, what you can afford, and buy in quantity. For me, that's the 147gr...just because heavier loads give me a warm'n'fuzzy. (phrasing!)
It's what's in my gun right now, but after rereading the new ammo thread I am on the hunt for some 135g stuff.
The Tactical Bonded line? Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. Both times I've established a master grip, I would have had to shoot through auto glass. Previously, I had thought, "Oh, barriers. Whatever. That's mostly a cop thing." Kinda woke me up, especially since the one instance I was carrying a J-frame with the Remington 158gr soft lead hollowpoint.....pretty much the worst round possible to shoot through a barrier with.
ToddG
02-09-2014, 08:40 PM
May have told this before, but many years ago I was doing some stuff with Salt Lake County Sheriffs and they had an incident where an officer fired a 135gr +p Federal Tactical at someone charging him head on in a car. The perpetrator ducked his head as the Deputy's gun came out and the round went through the windshield, through the skull, and through multiple vertebrae before said perpetrator was no longer able to duck, drive, breathe, or otherwise nuisance anyone ever again.
I will nonetheless remain a believer in the fairy dust of speed and stick to the 124+p HST to hedge bets.
The Tactical Bonded line? Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. Both times I've established a master grip, I would have had to shoot through auto glass.
That, and I live in a town with 16" thick felons.
Chuck Haggard
02-09-2014, 11:20 PM
We have had a number of OISs involving bad guys in cars, never saw an issue with the performance of the 124gr +P in either Gold Dot or Ranger-T flavors, I suspect the HST would do as well..
Kyle Reese
02-10-2014, 12:23 AM
We have had a number of OISs involving bad guys in cars, never saw an issue with the performance of the 124gr +P in either Gold Dot or Ranger-T flavors, I suspect the HST would do as well..
That's good news, because I just took delivery of some 124g GD +P on Friday. :)
Chuck Haggard
02-10-2014, 01:01 AM
That's good news, because I just took delivery of some 124g GD +P on Friday. :)
You chose well.
ToddG
02-10-2014, 01:09 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JXEaQBz_6Fk/T_AGHaQSXkI/AAAAAAAAB2A/UCWAFAYRMDs/s1600/ChosenWisely.jpeg
LSP972
02-10-2014, 07:56 AM
According to my source at ATK, the 124gr HST is the only one of the line that has sporadic performance in auto safety glass. IOW, it sometimes completely sheds the jacket going through. Ostensibly, this is due to the reduced bearing surface between jacket and core in the "short" bullet.
Be that as it may, this design performs spectacularly in the water tank, in all calibers and weights. The various LE agencies in Louisiana issue/use a widely varying selection of "duty" loads, and by far the best performance we have seen on meat bullets (those removed from bodies) is from Gold Dots. By that, I mean the Gold Dots almost always stay together and expand uniformly; even when bone is hit.
Several local and state agencies issue .40 180gr HSTs, but they haven't shot anybody with it yet that I am aware of. I am aware of numerous applications of 9mm 147gr and .45 230gr HST in other areas of the country, and by all accounts relayed to us those bullets have performed very well across the board… enough so that I changed my carry ammunition from Ranger SXT to HST.
Gold Dot would be my second choice.
.
Paxamus
02-10-2014, 09:02 AM
I bought a bunch of 9mm 147 g HSTs last year and now cant find any 147s, I can only find 124s, anyone know of a good place to find 147s?
It has a deeper hollow point cavity which is more resistant to plugging, than 124gr+P.
After your post I compared my 2005 stash of win ranger 127gr SXT RA9TA and the Bonded PDX1 147gr !
I would of though the 147 would have a deeper cavity but that's not the case.
Some
So, I don't think you're gaining anything reliability wise with the 124gr.
.
I totally disagree. I have witness better feeding using higher velocity loads in dirty handguns.
The higher velocity +P or +P+ will give the slide more velocity than standard loads.
I bought a bunch of 9mm 147 g HSTs last year and now cant find any 147s, I can only find 124s, anyone know of a good place to find 147s?
All I can find is the standard pressure 124 loads in 50rd box
Its only 50FPS according to ATK
Some
The Tactical Bonded line? Yeah, "Oh, barriers. Whatever. That's mostly a cop thing." Kinda woke me up, especially since the one instance I was carrying a J-frame with the Remington 158gr soft lead hollowpoint.....pretty much the worst round possible to shoot through a barrier with.
The 158 SWC HP in +P or even standard pressure will penetrate just fine.
Now it might plug in heavy Clothing test or 4ply Denim
I use the Low recoil 148gr WC in my S&W 642 and for reloads ranger bonded 130gr +P
The under 700fps 148WC in a S&W642 penetrates well and can cut tissue.
I don't shoot as good as my right hand so that's why I use the low recoil 148 WC
It happen to me only once so far . But I was shooting my heavy S&WM649 357mag using the FBI load and in the cylinder the round jump the case and jammed up my M649.
After that I stop using the FBI load in Jframes
Chuck Haggard
02-10-2014, 01:44 PM
While the Gold Dots aren't always the very "best" in some testing compared to the HSTs or Ranger-T when you look at expended diameter, what I really like about them is the consistency.
I have seen lots of testing, and a number of bullets pulled from bad guys who were shot in various OISs in which no clothing, heavy clothing, very-very heavy clothing, cars and other barriers were involved. The bullets tend to perform well across the board.
My OIS observations come from use of the 124gr +P 9mm and info from friends on another job who have issued the 180gr .40 for many years.
Rich, the 158gr LSWCHPs tend to completely fail the sheet metal/car door FBI test due to no even getting through the metal to hit the gelatin. They do OK through glass. I wouldn't count on anything from a 2" .38 besides the 135gr Gold Dot or the or the Win Bonded, or the 110gr DPX, to get into a car at all, let alone have a significant wounding effect.
Rich, the 158gr LSWCHPs tend to completely fail the sheet metal/car door FBI test due to no even getting through the metal to hit the gelatin.
What he said.
I wouldn't classify that as penetrating just fine.
Can you show me testing that the FBI load COMPLETELY fail the sheet metal testing and not even reach the gel block ?? And yet did OK in AG . That's strange?
Hopefully I never have to use my BUG / 642 to shoot AG or my car door. It sits in my left front pocket and hard to draw sitting / driving. I do have a pistol loaded with 180gr HST at 3PM that's easier to draw.
Really the only pistol load I know of that will expand on the sheet metal test is the EFMJ by Federal/ATK
BTW
Winchester 158 LHP sheet metal P= wasn't listed but expanded 68caliber. either they could find the bullet or like you said it would penetrate it.
Winchester ranger 380acp T load penetrated 9.3inches of gel on the sheet metal test
What he said.
I wouldn't classify that as penetrating just fine.
No 38spl load I know of passes the FBI test fully ! and many of the 9mm loads as well.
I use the 38spl for BUG use only.
How about this?
Seems to penetrate just fine for bug use except the sheet metal test..
Chuck Haggard
02-12-2014, 01:34 PM
Can you show me testing that the FBI load COMPLETELY fail the sheet metal testing and not even reach the gel block ?? And yet did OK in AG . That's strange?
Hopefully I never have to use my BUG / 642 to shoot AG or my car door. It sits in my left front pocket and hard to draw sitting / driving. I do have a pistol loaded with 180gr HST at 3PM that's easier to draw.
Really the only pistol load I know of that will expand on the sheet metal test is the EFMJ by Federal/ATK
BTW
Winchester 158 LHP sheet metal P= wasn't listed but expanded 68caliber. either they could find the bullet or like you said it would penetrate it.
Winchester ranger 380acp T load penetrated 9.3inches of gel on the sheet metal test
Almost every version of the "FBI load" that I have seen tested in the sheet metal test has failed to get through the second sheet of metal and been recorded as 0" on the penetration. Need to find my disc.
Wayne Dobbs
02-12-2014, 02:20 PM
None of the three "FBI Load" +P Lead Hollow Points penetrated the steel barriers in the protocol. I have the test sheets in pdf form if somebody needs them.
Dagga Boy
02-12-2014, 02:51 PM
A lot of guys here use the 147gr HST.
I prefer the +P 124gr myself ! For the extra slide velocity and reliability . I want my pistol to feed! I also keep hearing the P30 prefers the 124loads best. (I do have 2 different 147 ball loads to test.)
Although the 124gr HST +P only P 10inches in BG per ATK testing
It did well in Heavy Clothing
124+P P= 13.00 EX = .610
147gr P= 12.50 EX = .690
They both had the same amount of P in Auto Glass.
I do know that Todd uses the same load also. But I don't know his reasoning behind it.
I use 147gr HST almost exclusively in my P30's with no issues. It is my preferred load and the .45acp +P HST has been a death ray at my old place. I also use AE 147 TMJ for training when I can find it. All are issue free in the P30 and P2000. Also, the HK's have much more positive and consistent ejection and extraction than the Glocks across the board and I have not seen a single issue with anything other than super light 115 9mm that are more like .380's.
Symmetry
02-12-2014, 03:19 PM
I use 147gr HST almost exclusively in my P30's with no issues. It is my preferred load and the .45acp +P HST has been a death ray at my old place. I also use AE 147 TMJ for training when I can find it. All are issue free in the P30 and P2000. Also, the HK's have much more positive and consistent ejection and extraction than the Glocks across the board and I have not seen a single issue with anything other than super light 115 9mm that are more like .380's.
In terms of reliability, I too have never needed +P ammo to keep my guns going. I have been using a pair of P228s since 1997 for duty/off duty, and the only function problems I have had was when we were issued 115gr+P+ GDs. That includes a lot of weak hand shooting with gloves, in the sand, in the rain,.....etc.
That was stupid of me.
if the WIN 158 SWC HP expanded 68 cal then they had to find the bullet. DUH
I want to thank you guys for bring it to my attention ! My bad
I would never of thought that the FBI load couldn't get past 2 layers of sheet metal.
In terms of reliability, I too have never needed +P ammo to keep my guns going. I have been using a pair of P228s since 1997 for duty/off duty, and the only function problems I have had was when we were issued 115gr+P+ GDs. That includes a lot of weak hand shooting with gloves, in the sand, in the rain,.....etc.
Oh I've shot standard pressure 9mm loads in my 5906 and 6906 and never had any problems keeping a clean pistol running.
I just prefer using +P 9mm ammo for SD.
I like the extra velocity or fairy dust as TG states ! LOL
Just like if I did a torture test by putting sand in its action or being drop in dirt mud etc. I think the +P loads would make a difference .
That's my take and it wont change.
Symmetry
02-12-2014, 07:15 PM
Just like if I did a torture test by putting sand in its action or being drop in dirt mud etc. I think the +P loads would make a difference .
Been there, done that in 33 degree mud....and 115 degree Arizona sand. I think you will be hard pressed to see a difference between standard pressure 147gr and
+P loads. Most of the slide related malfunctions I have seen are with low grain weight bullets such as 115gr minus. Slide recoil consistency is better the heavier the bullet weight.
Ive seen dirty dry pistol start having issues then when feed +P or +P+ they went away for awhile! BTW I seen it with my Carbine as well 5.56/223rem!
If you cant except it fine
Oh btw Todd G. who was the trainer you know of who experience the same thing? wasn't his name Rich. I wouldn't mind going over his finding as well.
Haraise
02-12-2014, 07:31 PM
Power factor is the same thing as momentum. Momentum is what moves the slide, effectively.
Momentum favors heavy bullets.
Power factor of HST (approximate):
124gr = 142.6
147gr = 149.1
124gr +P = 149.8
Cheap bulk 115gr = 132.3
In competitions, I believe most gun racers would adjust return spring weight for a ~17 power factor difference in load.
ToddG
02-12-2014, 07:36 PM
Momentum is what moves the slide, effectively.
So the actual pressure built up in the chamber has nothing to do with it?
I know I've seen guns get sluggish or stop working with standard pressure ammo of all weights that would then run as if perfectly lubed with 124+p. Should you let your gun get that bad in the first place? No.
In competitions, I believe most gun racers would adjust return spring weight for a ~17 power factor difference in load.
Except you're now getting far, far afield of what people are talking about when discussing how to make a defensive arm work as reliably as possible with the best possible defensive ammo. And I'd be the first to say that if I believed the 147gr load was meaningfully more effective at stopping someone's ability to harm me I'd go with that as my priority and not just "theoretically more reliable in a very narrow circumstance." But instead I happen to believe the 124+p has an edge in that area so I choose it.
What's obvious from Doctor Roberts's and other tests is that both choices are supremely good for 9mm.
that kinda reminds me of foot pounds really doesn't tell me much
except the 124+P has a higher number. sorry
When I used a 1911 I will go to a lw spring when shooting my SWC loads then go to heavy for my SD loads
BTW I hate race guns
Momentum = mass X velocity
For a given bullet weight, +P typically means more velocity.
Haraise
02-12-2014, 08:05 PM
So the actual pressure built up in the chamber has nothing to do with it?
I know I've seen guns get sluggish or stop working with standard pressure ammo of all weights that would then run as if perfectly lubed with 124+p. Should you let your gun get that bad in the first place? No.
Except you're now getting far, far afield of what people are talking about when discussing how to make a defensive arm work as reliably as possible with the best possible defensive ammo. And I'd be the first to say that if I believed the 147gr load was meaningfully more effective at stopping someone's ability to harm me I'd go with that as my priority and not just "theoretically more reliable in a very narrow circumstance." But instead I happen to believe the 124+p has an edge in that area so I choose it.
What's obvious from Doctor Roberts's and other tests is that both choices are supremely good for 9mm.
I'm not quite sure if you're arguing against me here? My numbers showed that the 124 +P has more momentum. That would mean that I wouldn't be advocating the 147 for maximal reliability.
And yes, they're both effective ammo termanally, didn't say anything relating to that.
As far as chamber pressure and how it relates directly to slide velocity, I couldn't say. That'd take some back to back testing I'm not set up to do.
ToddG
02-12-2014, 08:06 PM
If we were more in agreement than I realized, my apologies H.
Haraise
02-12-2014, 08:16 PM
It's all good.
Now I can't stop thinking about if chamber pressure is related to reliability of function, though. Would a 115gr .38 SC at 1400fps give any different slide velocity than a 230gr .45 at 700fps? Extreme example, and my off the cuff response would be that chamber pressure isn't nearly as meaningful as energy difference between the two loads with equal momentum (I'm not confident momentum is everything and energy is nothing, which is why I phrased it as 'momentum is what moves the slide, effectively'), but it'd take some real testing to give any meaningful answer. Would need to compare equal energy and momentum to different chamber pressure, such as a hot .380 vs light 9mm, or hot 9mm vs light 9mm supercomp. .40 vs 10mm would be perfect, as well. Would the same powder/bullet in a .40 be more reliable than a 10mm, all else equal, for the sake of pressure? Can't see it, but no evidence to say no way with.
ToddG
02-12-2014, 10:35 PM
I is not engineer type. At all. So I guess all I can think -- and hopefully Bill or another one of the Experienced Big Brains will think about it -- is that if there's something impeding the slide for some reason, x+y pressure will "clear" the obstruction so to speak more likely than x+0 pressure. But perhaps if the momentum is the same regardless then you're correct and pressure/speed isn't really making any difference.
TheTrevor
02-12-2014, 10:36 PM
If anyone knows of a source for P9HST3, I'd be much obliged for the lead. I've been watching the ammo search engines for 2 months now and I have yet to see any HST3 show up.
ToddG
02-12-2014, 11:05 PM
It gets built in lots and probably only 3-4 times per year. If it's what you really Must Have I'd suggest laying in multiple cases at once and just considering it a lifetime (or semi lifetime) investment.
FWIW, I'd also use 124gr +p Gold Dot absolutely without question if finding P9HST was a problem but the GD was available. As much as the HST might look slightly better on paper, NYPD and other 9mm departments have shot so many people using 124gr +p GD to excellent effect that it's probably the most proven load out there.
TheTrevor
02-12-2014, 11:23 PM
I have obtained a small but sufficient supply of 147gr PDX1 for the new gun, such that I have enough to function test plus fill carry mags. My interest in the 124gr +P HST was for small quantity testing.
I know it's not the cool-kid +P stuff, but I'm actually pretty likely to standardize on 147gr HST (Doc approved!) when I can find a case or two. Call me silly, but I like shooting the same weight for carry, competition and range ammo when practical.
ETA: I have also ordered a small quantity of 147gr Gold Dot, just in case.
[QUOTE=ToddG;200010]I is not engineer type. At all. /QUOTE]
Same here.
If anyone knows of a source for P9HST3, I'd be much obliged for the lead. I've been watching the ammo search engines for 2 months now and I have yet to see any HST3 show up.
I swear every time I see the 124+P in stock I don't have the cash. And of coarse when I have the money its out of stock.
I cant afford buying cases of ammo anymore I'm just to poor.
Mr_White
02-13-2014, 12:33 PM
I have obtained a small but sufficient supply of 147gr PDX1 for the new gun, such that I have enough to function test plus fill carry mags. My interest in the 124gr +P HST was for small quantity testing.
I know it's not the cool-kid +P stuff, but I'm actually pretty likely to standardize on 147gr HST (Doc approved!) when I can find a case or two. Call me silly, but I like shooting the same weight for carry, competition and range ammo when practical.
ETA: I have also ordered a small quantity of 147gr Gold Dot, just in case.
147gr HST seems like one the very best 9mm loads out there. I'm in the 124gr + p camp too, but if circumstances roped me into 147gr HST instead, I don't think I'd be very concerned about it.
Chuck Haggard
02-13-2014, 12:37 PM
I am very happy with the 124gr +P Gold Dot, but I'd seriously carry anything on Doc's list, and even a few that aren't on the list, and lose zero sleep over the matter.
jwperry
02-16-2014, 05:04 PM
One of the things I took to heart most out of DocGKR's thread regarding ammunition testing was this statement: "pick the one that you shoot most accurately" which varies gun to gun for me. My P226 & 229 shoot POA/POI with 124 HST +P, my M&P9 shoots POA/POI with HST 147, so I have both. I'd rather be able to accurately hit my target then really start getting into the "what ifs", because if I can't hit what I'm aiming at then overall function is moot.
FWIW I've had success buying 500/1000 round quantities of said rounds off gunbroker and I was able to keep the cost down to what I'd wager as normal or in the $.65-$.70 per round range.
Since the real engineers are busy polishing SIGs and chasing toddlers, I'll put in briefly that unless we're talking P7s chamber pressure is not very relevant. Momentum -- recoil -- is the whole story, but remember that momentum is delivered over time. Thus, two loads can have the same power factor and different effects on cycling behavior.
And Byron will correct me if I'm wrong.
http://www.surplusammo.com/9mm-124-grain-p-hst-federal-tactical-50-rounds/
I haven't used them before,!but it was in stock. A little high though.
I swear every time I see the 124+P in stock I don't have the cash. And of coarse when I have the money its out of stock.
I cant afford buying cases of ammo anymore I'm just to poor.
ETA: I didn't quote the user I wanted.
I shot 100rds lawman 147 yesterday It has a lot more recoil than the lawman 124gr !
Enough I was glad I ran out.
I may even use the standard 124gr HST for SD . Or if surgery works out I may try the +P
KeeFus
03-21-2014, 06:58 AM
I shot 100rds lawman 147 yesterday It has a lot more recoil than the lawman 124gr !
Enough I was glad I ran out.
I may even use the standard 124gr HST for SD . Or if surgery works out I may try the +P
I bought some +P 124 gold dots yesterday @ $24.99/box of 50. Also bought 124 HST's standard PSI for $22.99/box of 50. I asked about +P HST's and they stated they haven't seen any. Only recently have the +P gold dots shown up. Why are +P varieties so hard to find?
Secondly, looking at ATK/LE webpage none of the 124's (standard psi nor +P) penetrate a minimum of 12 inches on bare gelatin but do better in other tests. Is getting a +P variety really worth it?
Chuck Haggard
03-21-2014, 09:14 AM
In the Gold Dot I would say yes. We have been using that 124gr +P for a long time. Both function and terminal effects are enhanced IMHO by using the +P version.
Mr_White
03-21-2014, 11:42 AM
In the Gold Dot I would say yes. We have been using that 124gr +P for a long time. Both function and terminal effects are enhanced IMHO by using the +P version.
What makes you say so? More reliable and larger expansion, or something else you have noticed? Anecdote is fine, I'm just curious what influenced your opinion.
Chuck Haggard
03-21-2014, 12:10 PM
Testing by Doc, the IWBA and the FBI, and observation of autopsies from our OISs
Bare gel is IMHO an acid test for over expansion and bullet failure. I have never seen one of our Gold Dot bullets pulled from a person that looked like a bare gel shot, they all look like the heavy clothing/4LD tests (except for bullets that have gone through glass and such). We have had OISs with suspect wearing crazy layers of clothing, like a coat over Carharts over a hoody over a flannel over Long Johns over a T-shirt...., we've never had a failure to expand in a real shooting.
Mr_White
03-21-2014, 12:36 PM
Cool, thanks Chuck.
A major reason I run 124gr + P Gold Dot is related to ease of supply a while back. I've always been impressed with how hot they load the 124 standard and + P Gold Dot. The standard pressure lot I have chronographs at the factory spec for + P (1220 fps) and the various lots of + P that I've got have chronographed about 1275 to 1310 fps. And as you have noted, it runs the gun pretty briskly.
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