First time purchase (newbee) Glock gen 3 or S & W M&P

[Bryan G]

I'm going to make the purchase tomorrow and this will be my only hand gun for many many years.

I've been reading and researching and thought I knew what I wanted, I was going to get a Glock 17 gen4 then someone told me they have ejection problems. This was my preference, I guess it's not a good gun. Then a thread I was reading here said get the Glock 17 gen3, they are solid. There is one at Cabela's for only $4.99, I'll save $100 from the gen 4 and it's more reliable, I guess....
Then while I as at Cabela's they said I don't want a Glock, they say I should get the Smith & Wesson M&P.
I like target shooting and the Glock is more accurate, but the M&P fits my hand way better. The Glock feels like a block on wood in my had and the M&P feels like it was made for my hand.
My brother in law said get the Glock until I told him how the S & W feels then he said it might be better cause it feels better.

Anyway.... I'm confused.

I don't want to regret my purchase, if I get the S&W will I be happy or will I always feel I should have gotten the Glock?? Are Glocks the best?

[jslaker]

this will be my only hand gun for many many years.

Find some place local that rents both. Spend more time shooting both. Then purchase after determining which is best for you.

Both are solid guns.

[JV_]

if I get the S&W will I be happy or will I always feel I should have gotten the Glock??You'll probably always have that nagging thought in your head, it won't be squashed until you've owned both.

[ToddG]

Step 1: ignore the people at Cabelas. There's a good chance a spiff is running and they're trying to sell you the gun because they get cash for each one they sell or something like that.

Step 2: Both guns you're considering are GOOD. Neither is PERFECT. As JV said, if you get serious about shooting eventually you own both.

Step 3: Try to spend some time shooting both before deciding.

Step 4: Sign up for an NRA Basic Pistol or NRA Personal Protection class. Get formal safety and gun handling training. Also, odds are you'll find an instructor who has one if not both guns in question.

Step 5: Pick and don't look back. There will always be people who can tell you ten reasons why they'd choose Glock over Smith or vice versa. Plenty of very smart, very accomplished shooters use each.

[Odin Bravo One]

Step 1: ignore the people at Cabelas.
Step 2: Both guns you're considering are GOOD. *Answering this question is always tough, but others have offered some pretty sound advice. Hitting a site where there are somewhat vetted members with enough experience to actually make sound assessments and offer advice based on years of actual hands on experience rather than some BS they read in Guns and Ammo, or heard someone else say at another gunstore.

As for the Glock being more accurate than the S&W? When you get to the point where you as a shooter are more accurate than the pistol you are shooting, then you can worry about that. Just for your information.....there are very few people on the planet that can honestly outshoot their guns.

Finally, don't let someone else tell you what you need. Comfort and proper fit are important. As TG said, they are both good guns, and there are world class shooter that shoot each of them. Find the one that fits you, feels good to you, works for you, and don't look back.

[TCinVA]

Also note that how something feels in the gunstore isn't necessarily an indication of how it will perform in your hands. If you don't suffer from slide bite with the Glock, then based on the literally tens of thousands of people of all shapes and sizes who manage to use them succsessfully it's safe to say you can probably learn to use it very well.

[SecondsCount]

Find some place local that rents both. Spend more time shooting both. Then purchase after determining which is best for you.

Both are solid guns.

This is good advice.

[Bryan G]

Step 1: ignore the people at Cabelas. There's a good chance a spiff is running and they're trying to sell you the gun because they get cash for each one they sell or something like that.

Step 2: Both guns you're considering are GOOD. Neither is PERFECT. As JV said, if you get serious about shooting eventually you own both.

Step 3: Try to spend some time shooting both before deciding.

Step 4: Sign up for an NRA Basic Pistol or NRA Personal Protection class. Get formal safety and gun handling training. Also, odds are you'll find an instructor who has one if not both guns in question.

Step 5: Pick and don't look back. There will always be people who can tell you ten reasons why they'd choose Glock over Smith or vice versa. Plenty of very smart, very accomplished shooters use each.


*Answering this question is always tough, but others have offered some pretty sound advice. Hitting a site where there are somewhat vetted members with enough experience to actually make sound assessments and offer advice based on years of actual hands on experience rather than some BS they read in Guns and Ammo, or heard someone else say at another gunstore.

As for the Glock being more accurate than the S&W? When you get to the point where you as a shooter are more accurate than the pistol you are shooting, then you can worry about that. Just for your information.....there are very few people on the planet that can honestly outshoot their guns.

Finally, don't let someone else tell you what you need. Comfort and proper fit are important. As TG said, they are both good guns, and there are world class shooter that shoot each of them. Find the one that fits you, feels good to you, works for you, and don't look back.
From what I gathered from here and other sources the guns are about the same, both have their own ups & downs.

My brother in law said what Sean said and I think it goes a long ways, I like the feel of the M&P so I purchased it today, hopefully I'll have it in 2 days. I have small hands and the Glock just don't fit.

Thanks for the help everyone.

[ranburr]

M&P feels great. Beyond that, I can't say anything good about it. I wouldn't have a problem with a Gen3 Glock.

[Bryan G]

There was one more selling point, I hope I wasn't lied to but from what the salesmen said at Gander Mountain and Cabela's, the Glock has no warranty and the M&P has a lifetime warranty...

When I'm sticking this kind of money into something I want someone to back it up.

[DocGKR]

You were lied to.

It is astounding that any sane, logical, well informed person would believe any salesperson at a place like Gander Mountain or Cabela's...

[Kyle Reese]

You were lied to.

It is astounding that any sane, logical, well informed person would believe any salesperson at a place like Gander Mountain or Cabela's...

Gun shop 'tudes and ill informed salespeople make me look forward to a root canal more than gun shopping.

[Bryan G]

You were lied to.

It is astounding that any sane, logical, well informed person would believe any salesperson at a place like Gander Mountain or Cabela's...

How am I supposed to know their lying, it's my first time dealing with the purchase of a semi auto pistol from a gun dealer. I had the sense to come here and ask questions.

The salesmen at both shops told me that the Milwaukee Police changed their guns from Glock's to the M&P's. I looked it up and found several articles from the local papers about the police having their guns jam and several articles about an officer that was shot because his gun jammed, then they changed guns. The article is here (http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1283676&highlight=). They told me the truth about that so I figured the warranty info was correct too, it'll be easy enough to verify, guess I should have.

[Kyle Reese]

How am I supposed to know their lying, it's my first time dealing with the purchase of a semi auto pistol from a gun dealer. I had the sense to come here and ask questions.

The salesmen at both shops told me that the Milwaukee Police changed their guns from Glock's to the M&P's. I looked it up and found several articles from the local papers about the police having their guns jam and several articles about an officer that was shot because his gun jammed, then they changed guns. The article is here (http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1283676&highlight=). They told me the truth about that so I figured the warranty info was correct too, it'll be easy enough to verify, guess I should have.

Think of it this way. Gun store clerks are like car salesmen. They will not always be looking out in your best interest when they try to peddle a particular piece of hardware to you. Long story short, you did good with the M&P. Smith & Wesson does indeed offer a lifetime warranty, so you're covered there. Glock also has a warranty, so the clerk may have been misinformed or was spreading disinformation your way.

I cannot render comment regarding Milwaukee Police changing from _____ to _____, as I don't have enough facts / empirical data regarding same.

[Bryan G]

Think of it this way. Gun store clerks are like car salesmen. They will not always be looking out in your best interest when they try to peddle a particular piece of hardware to you. Long story short, you did good with the M&P. Smith & Wesson does indeed offer a lifetime warranty, so you're covered there. Glock also has a warranty, so the clerk may have been misinformed or was spreading disinformation your way.

I cannot render comment regarding Milwaukee Police changing from _____ to _____, as I don't have enough facts / empirical data regarding same.

The article about the police switching guns was from the Smith & Wesson's web site so I can't say how true it all is, they might exaggerate...

Thank you for your post, I feel better about my decision. Now I'm driving myself nuts wondering if the 9mm was right or should I have gotten the .40??

I gotta stop second guessing.

[Joe in PNG]

Be happy with the 9- every time I've bought a .40, I've had painful regrets. Usually the hand pain would go away about an hour after the range session.

[JHC]

The article about the police switching guns was from the Smith & Wesson's web site so I can't say how true it all is, they might exaggerate...

Thank you for your post, I feel better about my decision. Now I'm driving myself nuts wondering if the 9mm was right or should I have gotten the .40??

I gotta stop second guessing.

Look through the blogs archives and read up on Todd's M&P long term endurance test. That will pump you up about your gun! The Milwaukee PD story was widely covered on the gun boards and the basic story as related does seem to be what happened.

I don't prefer them but they're good pistols. Here is a link to the tail end of the M&P test. Work your way to the front.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/mp-monday

[Bryan G]

Be happy with the 9- every time I've bought a .40, I've had painful regrets. Usually the hand pain would go away about an hour after the range session.That's good to hear, I plan on going to the range a lot. I guess it'll also be less painful on the wallet.



Look through the blogs archives and read up on Todd's M&P long term endurance test. That will pump you up about your gun! The Milwaukee PD story was widely covered on the gun boards and the basic story as related does seem to be what happened.

I don't prefer them but they're good pistols. Here is a link to the tail end of the M&P test. Work your way to the front.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/range-reports/mp-mondayI came across that story while researching the gun and was impressed.

[ranburr]

I don't think that people so much lie about things as much as it is a case of personal experience and bias. Endurance test are great, but they really don't tell you much when we are talking about a sample of one. I have personally seen and experienced many more issues with M&Ps than with Glocks. When I say issues, I am talking actual parts breakages and not shooter induced issues.

[Kyle Reese]

I don't think that people so much lie about things as much as it is a case of personal experience and bias. Endurance test are great, but they really don't tell you much when we are talking about a sample of one. I have personally seen and experienced many more issues with M&Ps than with Glocks. When I say issues, I am talking actual parts breakages and not shooter induced issues.

I've witnessed and experienced the opposite in many large chain stores and gun emporiums. The bovine excrement being propagated on the unwary purchaser quickly reaches "man the bloody rafters, cap'n!" levels...

Example:

"Why yes, this DPMS IS being used by Special Forces in Iraq right now."

"The Taurus Judge is ideal for home defense."

[Rains on Parades]

It's not just gun store clerks(though they should be held under the most suspicion as they are trying to sell you something). It's everyone. Friends, family, co-workers, magazines, other media. They all either spread lies or misinformation.I would almost say don't believe anything you hear anywhere unless it comes from someone who is A) a known reputable source, or B) a well known documented fact that you can hear from multiple sources.

I don't know how long I labored under the idea that slower heavier bullets would penetrate inside barriers less than faster traveling rounds.

Just automatically take everything you hear with a grain of salt until you can verify it someway.

[Nik the Greek]

It's not just gun store clerks(though they should be held under the most suspicion as they are trying to sell you something). It's everyone. Friends, family, co-workers, magazines, other media. They all either spread lies or misinformation.I would almost say don't believe anything you hear anywhere unless it comes from someone who is A) a known reputable source, or B) a well known documented fact that you can hear from multiple sources.

I don't know how long I labored under the idea that slower heavier bullets would penetrate inside barriers less than faster traveling rounds.

Just automatically take everything you hear with a grain of salt until you can verify it someway.

I agree, though a large part of the problem is the lack of empirical information regarding firearms; verification is difficult. It's incredibly frustrating that the "best" source of information on firearms on the internet is forums. Regrettably, opinion and anecdotes rule the day, and there isn't nearly as much hard information floating around as I'd like.

I think a lot of the firearm community (myself included, initially) is a little too focused on the weapons, and not nearly focused enough on the shooter. People will spend thousands of dollars buying guns and ammunition, without ever dropping a dollar on training. That's one of the reasons I like TLG's site and these forums. They're not necessarily scientific, per se, but his firearm tests are closer to a practical firearm endurance test than I've seen elsewhere. Even better, the 'software' forum is an awesome place to lurk to learn and improve.

[TCinVA]

It can be safely said that most of the gun-buying public is...unsophisticated...at best. For whatever reason the ream of firearms is particularly susceptible to lore, fish stories (it blew a hole in 'im this big!), and other assorted forms of nonsense. Lots of people mean well but simply don't know what they don't know. Lots of people are convinced that being born with testes makes them a weapons expert and aren't the least bit bashful about sharing their "wisdom" with others looking for answers. Lots of people don't understand how to process information properly.

An example:

On another board during Hurricane Katrina someone noted that there were a lot of Remington 870's visible in the pictures of people trying to survive and protect themselves. This led to a spectacular example of group think and a general consensus that the 870 must be the ultimate SHTF weapon since so many people were using it once the S had actually HTF. I saw those pictures and had a very different theory: That there are a lot of hunters out there and that just about every single one of them has at one time or another purchased a Remington 870. If I remember correctly it's the single most popular shotgun in history and may be the best selling commercial firearm of all time. This means that there are countless thousands of them out there. In the aftermath of a natural disaster when social order had broken down, people were not going to a James Bond style bunker somewhere in their house to select the best weapon for the task out of dozens of possibilities. In an emergency they realized they needed some sort of gun and they went into the closet, pulled the 870 they'd killed birds with out of the case and pressed it into duty as bad guy repellent. I theorized that in an emergency they were making due with probably the only long gun they had, or possibly the only firearm they owned at all. It was the first bit of reasoned thought injected into that conversation. Had it not happened there would be a lot of people from that discussion out there preaching the virtues of the 870 as the ultimate post-apocalypse weapon.

There are also lots of people who don't know the limitations of their knowledge. Friends are always asking me gun questions because I'm the biggest gun geek they know...but my geekery pretty much ends at handguns, and in the order of geekery I'm barely a padawan. I know a little bit about the AR-15 family of weapons and a very little bit about AK pattern weapons and only bits and pieces of collector guns. Sniper/long range rifles? I'm utterly clueless. I always try and explain the limitations of my knowledge when I'm giving advice so that the other person knows that I could be woefully incorrect. I hate to steer people wrong.

Many simply don't care if they are or not. This is one of the reasons why I never excelled in sales positions. Too much empathy for the poor customer.

[Steve m]

Bryan,

If you are stuck between a glock and a M&P, borrow one of each or rent one and shoot them, see which one fits you better. Then get that one, extra mags, ammo and shoot the snot outa it. Take a class or two and get proficient with your gun. I used to have M&P's and glocks and made the switch to glocks and I just practice with them and shoot them. Glocks fit me and are good for what I use them for. I think that is the bottom line. Don't let an employee feed you a line of crap, shoot each gun then make your decision based off how you like the guns. Get that one and practice, practice.

[peterb]

I saw those pictures and had a very different theory: That there are a lot of hunters out there and that just about every single one of them has at one time or another purchased a Remington 870. If I remember correctly it's the single most popular shotgun in history and may be the best selling commercial firearm of all time. This means that there are countless thousands of them out there.

There have been over ten million 870s sold since 1950. You're right --you see a lot of them because there are a lot of them.

[johnvolk]

There was one more selling point, I hope I wasn't lied to but from what the salesmen said at Gander Mountain and Cabela's, the Glock has no warranty and the M&P has a lifetime warranty...

I do not know what Glock's official warranty is at the moment. I do know the head men over warranty matters at both Glock and S&W and the woman at Ruger in AZ. All three firms take customer satisfaction very seriously. Last year Doug R. at Glock replaced a pistol that was purchased second hand and was damaged when fired with defective ammo. Warranty does not get any better than such. About two years ago a student with an ex-police department, 35 year old, S&W model 39 had the safety break because of being left too hard after heat treatment when manfactured. Initially they were going to charge for repairs. At my suggestion, the student called and talked to Ron B. S&W went completely through the pistol replacing several parts and returned it to him at no charge. It does not get any better than that.

Ruger chooses to have no stated warranty for legal reasons. They have a well earned reputation for standing behind their products as well as any manufacturer, and much better than some manufacturers with so called "lifetime warranties".

There is one well known firm with a "lifetime warranty" for the original purchaser, only. They wanted to charge me about $150.00 for a new slide (part only) to replace the original that had cracked at the muzzle end.. The original slide was left excessively hard after "heat treat" by a contract job shop. Apparently, this firm has not heard of the implied warranties of "merchantablity" and "fitness for designed or intended use"; or the 35 million Jennings/Bryco lawsuit judgement involving a Bryco .380 pistol.

Often the best warranty is the one you never need.

[JV_]

the Glock has no warrantyI believe they have a 1 year warranty. They'll fix many issues, at no cost, well beyond the initial 1 year.

[LittleLebowski]

Kyle DeFoor on Glock warranty (http://www.kyledefoor.com/2010/03/well-i-did-it.html) (Glock replaced the barrel)

[Bryan G]

OK, it this thread is still active, I have another question.

Is it OK to leave the clips loaded?
I'm wondering if the clip is left loaded that the spring will get weak ..

[jslaker]

Cycling wears springs more than constant load.

Feel free to leave your magazines topped off if you like. :)

[ranburr]

Wolff Springs says that compression will weaken magazine springs and that it is a good idea to store them downloaded by one round.

[orionz06]

Wolff Springs says that compression will weaken magazine springs and that it is a good idea to store them downloaded by one round.

That is for the most part incorrect.

Properly designed springs will not weaken when compressed in the perfect environment. Ask any engineer and they will tell you the same.

What is not known is if the springs are sized appropriately for the magazine size and capacity.

[jslaker]

That is for the most part incorrect.

Properly designed springs will not weaken when compressed in the perfect environment. Ask any engineer and they will tell you the same.

What is not known is if the springs are sized appropriately for the magazine size and capacity.

Personally, I'd be much more concerned about feed lip spread than the springs either way.

[Spr1]

Wolff is correct. They do design springs for a living. Loaded mags suffer from stress relaxation. Fatigue is a non-factor. The rate of stress relaxation is dramatically increased the higher the initial stress. It is also a time based phenomena. Downloading by a few rounds provides a disproportionate increase in service life. Some mags are better designed than others in terms of ability to remain functional after long periods of being loaded to full capacity.

[ford.304]

I want to say, as someone who was very recently in the exact same position you were in - don't worry so much about the gun itself. The gun is a tool, and there are better and worse ones out there, but both of your options were perfectly reasonable. Which one you picked didn't really matter.

What matters is that you get in a training class (or several!), and get to the range and practice. You'll learn that everything you thought you understood about guns was largely irrelevant. If you're not going to shoot the gun more than once a year, it doesn't really matter much what gun it is. On the other hand, if you're shooting every other week - after a year or so you're going to be a much more informed buyer, and have a much stronger lust for more and different guns anyway. So don't sweat the small stuff, just go shoot :)

[jslaker]

I want to say, as someone who was very recently in the exact same position you were in - don't worry so much about the gun itself. The gun is a tool, and there are better and worse ones out there, but both of your options were perfectly reasonable. Which one you picked didn't really matter.

What matters is that you get in a training class (or several!), and get to the range and practice. You'll learn that everything you thought you understood about guns was largely irrelevant. If you're not going to shoot the gun more than once a year, it doesn't really matter that much what gun it is. On the other hand, if you're shooting every other week - after a year or so you're going to be a much more informed buyer, and have a much stronger lust for more and different guns anyway. So don't sweat the small stuff, just go shoot :)

This man has the right idea.

[Bryan G]

I want to say, as someone who was very recently in the exact same position you were in - don't worry so much about the gun itself. The gun is a tool, and there are better and worse ones out there, but both of your options were perfectly reasonable. Which one you picked didn't really matter.

What matters is that you get in a training class (or several!), and get to the range and practice. You'll learn that everything you thought you understood about guns was largely irrelevant. If you're not going to shoot the gun more than once a year, it doesn't really matter much what gun it is. On the other hand, if you're shooting every other week - after a year or so you're going to be a much more informed buyer, and have a much stronger lust for more and different guns anyway. So don't sweat the small stuff, just go shoot :)

This is my first time purchase of an automatic handgun, not my first gun. I'm not sure what I would need in a training class. My first gun was a shotgun when I was 14. My first handgun was a S&W stainless steel revolver with a 6" barrel (didn't buy it, was a gift), I was 22, back in 1985. I'll be 50 years old next year and have owned guns my whole life, not saying know everything but I think it would be a waist of time and money. Besides, their passing the law to allow CCW in Wisconsin on Friday. I'll have to take training or some kind of classes to get my CCW permit anyway..

What I wanted was advice on a one time purchase because I won't have the money for another one later. I have a family and we have much more important things to spend money on rather than me buying different handguns. My wife agreed we need one for home protection and I wanted one I can go to the range with often, that's why I needed help, so I could get a gun that's good for both and will last...

I ended up buying the M&P9. From the help I got here I think I made the right purchase and it will serve all my purposes: reliability, home protection, range time and it will last.

[EPF]

This is my first time purchase of an automatic handgun, not my first gun. I'm not sure what I would need in a training class. My first gun was a shotgun when I was 14. My first handgun was a S&W stainless steel revolver with a 6" barrel (didn't buy it, was a gift), I was 22, back in 1985. I'll be 50 years old next year and have owned guns my whole life, not saying know everything but I think it would be a waist of time and money. Besides, their passing the law to allow CCW in Wisconsin on Friday. I'll have to take training or some kind of classes to get my CCW permit anyway..

What I wanted was advice on a one time purchase because I won't have the money for another one later. I have a family and we have much more important things to spend money on rather than me buying different handguns. My wife agreed we need one for home protection and I wanted one I can go to the range with often, that's why I needed help, so I could get a gun that's good for both and will last...

I ended up buying the M&P9. From the help I got here I think I made the right purchase and it will serve all my purposes: reliability, home protection, range time and it will last.


Brother, I mean this in the nicest way. You completely missed the point of his post. Even Ninjas train...... Glad you are happy with your purchase. Good luck.

[jslaker]

I certainly understand having a financial crunch; the point is more that until you have more trigger time and experience handling a semiautomatic handgun, you don't really know what will suit you best. What often "intuitively" feels right may not work at all for you, or may not work very well once you have a better grasp on proper technique.

I don't think you can go wrong with the weapon you decided on, OP, but part of the reason people end up churning through different guns is because they find out what they thought was best turns out not to be so. I say this as somebody that has recently switched platforms for this very reason. I'm not the same shooter I was when I bought my first handgun; learning has occurred and I have adapted with it.

ETA:

In fact, one of those bits of learning happened only recently because of this forum. I thought I liked blocky, Glockesque grip profiles and that they worked best for me. Some advice on grip from SLG made me realize that a larger, more rounded profile fits my hands best. I'm not near the skill level of many of the shooters on this forum, but it was an eye opener after 4 years of trying to be serious with my shooting. Just an example.

[Bryan G]

Brother, I mean this in the nicest way. You completely missed the point of his post. Even Ninjas train...... Glad you are happy with your purchase. Good luck.
Well, I don't mean to disrespect anyone by saying training is not necessary, I just meant that I really don't think I need any formal training on weapons. I am wondering, what could training do, once a ninja learns something, then he practices, and I do plan on that, I plan to practice a lot, that's the fun part. I have had the M&P for a few weeks now and still haven't shot it. I've been watching videos on cleaning and care as well as videos of people using it and giving their opinions so I know more of what I'm in for. I know gun safety, I know how to use the gun, now I just need to practice.... I suppose you could call what I've been doing is training..

I certainly understand having a financial crunch; the point is more that until you have more trigger time and experience handling a semiautomatic handgun, you don't really know what will suit you best. What often "intuitively" feels right may not work at all for you, or may not work very well once you have a better grasp on proper technique.

I don't think you can go wrong with the weapon you decided on, OP, but part of the reason people end up churning through different guns is because they find out what they thought was best turns out not to be so. I say this as somebody that has recently switched platforms for this very reason. I'm not the same shooter I was when I bought my first handgun; learning has occurred and I have adapted with it.

ETA:

In fact, one of those bits of learning happened only recently because of this forum. I thought I liked blocky, Glockesque grip profiles and that they worked best for me. Some advice on grip from SLG made me realize that a larger, more rounded profile fits my hands best. I'm not near the skill level of many of the shooters on this forum, but it was an eye opener after 4 years of trying to be serious with my shooting. Just an example.That's why I came here. Thanx to everyone here I know I have a good gun, now as I use it I'll get familiar with it. I won't know if there is better or worse as this is the only one I will know, so I'll most likely always be satisfied. I'm glad you can appreciate my financial situation and I thank you for your opinion as well as all the others.

Here are the main points I needed to know, is the gun is reliable and accurate? Will it last?

I raced mountain bikes back in my 30's. Every bike felt different, so I just picked one and got used to that. After riding for many hours a day for a few weeks, that was the best bike for me because it was what I was used to, it because part of me. I didn't need to know about the other bikes, I just needed to know mine was reliable and in the same class as the ones I was racing.
Again, same with my skis, there are many different types so I chose a pair. I just made sure they were reliable and able to handle my aggressive style, other than that it was a matter of me getting used to the skis.
And the same with the gun, I'll shoot it and shoot it and eventually hopefully it will become part of me like my skis and mountain bike have.


I just hope I don't offend anyone with my opinions.

[seabiscuit]

That is what I'm doing right now... I got my pistol, read the forum and PT.com, and go practice. But I know I have a lot to learn, and if I see a class in my area, I'll take it if the cash is there.

I used to shoot competitive smallbore in high school. Now, how hard is that? Shoot through peep sights designed for the target, sitting, prone, kneeling, standing. No recoil to deal with. Sling.

Even after two years of shooting weekly, I learned something every week. And before I even started, I had hundreds of hours in the backyard shooting air rifles.

I can shoot fairly accurately. I can shoot fairly fast. I need practice and training on putting the two together, and I need training based on real-life situations. Shooting is one thing, killing in defense with a pistol is another.

Learning never ends.

[Bryan G]

That is what I'm doing right now... I got my pistol, read the forum and PT.com, and go practice. But I know I have a lot to learn, and if I see a class in my area, I'll take it if the cash is there.

I used to shoot competitive smallbore in high school. Now, how hard is that? Shoot through peep sights designed for the target, sitting, prone, kneeling, standing. No recoil to deal with. Sling.

Even after two years of shooting weekly, I learned something every week. And before I even started, I had hundreds of hours in the backyard shooting air rifles.

I can shoot fairly accurately. I can shoot fairly fast. I need practice and training on putting the two together, and I need training based on real-life situations. Shooting is one thing, killing in defense with a pistol is another.

Learning never ends.Well, I don't believe anyone can teach me anything on shooting a gun, I know how to use and shoot, learned that at the gun range with my .357 back in the day. Everyone was helpful and glad to give advice but now you showed me something I don't know, or at least could use some info on, self defense, real life situations. How would I react if I end up in a circumstance where I need to shoot someone to protect my daughters? Would I be able to pull the trigger? Would I know when to shoot and when not to. What's the best way to react in a hostage situation? Are there techniques to help me stay calm and level headed?

I would like classes on that, thanx again for the info. Coming to this forum was definitely a smart move.

[jslaker]

Well, I don't believe anyone can teach me anything on shooting a gun,

I mean this with complete respect, but this is exactly the wrong attitude to have.

[seabiscuit]

Bryan, unless you're the best shot in the world, people can teach you things. And even the best shots ask for advice from really good shots.

[Bryan G]

Bryan, unless you're the best shot in the world, people can teach you things. And even the best shots ask for advice from really good shots.I hope this doesn't come out sounding disrespectful, or like I'm trying to brag but the truth is:

I'm not trying to be the best shot, I just need to be able to shoot a body between 6 and 20 feet away, for that I just need to practice. I'm not going into competition, if I was I would agree with you.

I was a pro mountain bike racer in the 80's, I was never trained, I taught myself and practiced for one year, raced a few amateur races then pro.

I was an extreme skier in the 80's also, again, self taught. I not only skied all the black diamond runs at Jackson Hole, Whistler/Blackcomb, Lake Tahoe, and throughout Colorado but I skied a lot of back country.

Now, I run a computer repair business, it's successful and again, self taught, I taught myself how to repair computers and build web sites.

I find it hard to believe that learning to use a gun would be harder than any of those...

In hockey I did take some training classes but that's different, there are many more complexities in that sport but the training was only 2 weeks and I was playing hockey from 7 years old until I was 40.

Let me state that again, I don't plan to be the best shot or compete otherwise I would agree 100%. Here's the truth, I can easily hit a 2 liter bottle from the hip at 25' so I'm sure I can hit a person at a greater range, and with practice I'll be even better. Besides, to get my CCW permit I'll have to take classes anyway.

[grimel]

I hope this doesn't come out sounding disrespectful, or like I'm trying to brag but the truth is:

I'm not trying to be the best shot, I just need to be able to shoot a body between 6 and 20 feet away, for that I just need to practice. I'm not going into competition, if I was I would agree with you.

.....

I find it hard to believe that learning to use a gun would be harder than any of those...

....

Let me state that again, I don't plan to be the best shot or compete otherwise I would agree 100%. Here's the truth, I can easily hit a 2 liter bottle from the hip at 25' so I'm sure I can hit a person at a greater range, and with practice I'll be even better. Besides, to get my CCW permit I'll have to take classes anyway.

The CCW class will be a bad joke. You might learn something about the Wi laws. You'll learn next to nothing about shooting a pistol.

As for shooting 6-20 ft, there is so much more to it than just hitting a body/2 liter bottle. Do you know where to hit the body/bottle (hint the actual target is considerably smaller than a 2 liter bottle, it's not likely to be standing still)? Do you have any clue how to not shoot yourself in the leg/butt when drawing at speed?

Look up Tex Grebner Outdoors on youtube. He thinks he knows how to shoot a pistol, train for defensive shooting, and has even taken a class (waaaaaay after he developed his horrid habits). He just put up (last week or so) a video of him shooting himself.

Quite frankly right now, you don't know what you don't know. My dad has been shooting about 50yrs give or take a day or so. Went through US Army training. I've been dragging him to classes (him in his 60's) and he started me out on handguns and long guns when I was about 5. He learns something in each class that makes him better able to defend himself. The hard part is finding someone with a clue teaching classes.

[JHC]

Bryan,
It will be so much more fun and your money on ammo so much better spent if you get a foundation of instruction on the modern TTPs. Not to mention how much faster you'll progress not unlearning some habit after you more slowly discover you are doing something that is holding you back. Just food for thought.

And the two liter bottle thing is childs play compared to running a sub-6.0 FAST or sub-8.0 El Presidente. There is so much fun and adventure in this ahead of you. ENJOY!

[SecondsCount]

Bryan, you don't know what you don't know. ;)

I had been shooting for nearly 30 years before I took my first defense pistol class. The first class I took happened by accident. I thought it was going to be an IDPA clinic, instead it turned out to be a defensive pistol class, and if I had known this at the time I probably would not have gone. Thankfully I took it because it changed my mindset about carrying a gun and training to the best of my ability.

When I took my first class, I thought I was a good shooter. Many people had complimented me on how well I shot and even approached me once to join the shooting team at local shooting range. It took a class to open my eyes to the fact that a defensive shooting is not about standing still and making ragged holes in a target.

Since then I have taken several more classes, including Todd's AFHF class, and every one has opened my eyes to things that I never thought were important to defending your life with a gun.