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cclaxton
01-31-2014, 08:41 AM
Found this great webpage showing the rulebook differences between IPSC and USPSA.
...and people complain about IDPA rules????....Gimme a break!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/144970593/Differences-Between-USPSA-and-IPSC-Rule-Books

Cody

cclaxton
01-31-2014, 08:46 AM
Here's my favorite snippet:
USPSA: Controversial Competitor Action - In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course requirements, but is not specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, the Range Master must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may rule that the action is allowed and the competitor’s score will stand. Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course of fire, and/or may declare that the action is “forbidden”.

Talk about subjective.....!!!!
Cody

GJM
01-31-2014, 08:55 AM
Cody take your IDPA hat off for a second, and answer this question honestly. Is there anyone who has shot both an IDPA and USPSA match that thinks the USPSA rules are more complicated and burdensome in terms of how you shoot a match?

JodyH
01-31-2014, 09:06 AM
I've been the MD and RO for both... I've given up on IDPA and have gone completely IPSC and outlaw for our club.

littlejerry
01-31-2014, 09:08 AM
Here's my favorite snippet:
USPSA: Controversial Competitor Action - In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course requirements, but is not specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, the Range Master must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may rule that the action is allowed and the competitor’s score will stand. Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course of fire, and/or may declare that the action is “forbidden”.

Talk about subjective.....!!!!
Cody

Its a rule saying "If something is clearly wrong the MD has the authority to change it on the fly"

What's the problem? Have you had a bad experience with this?

I've been at a match where a competitor managed to dart between obstacles that were intended to block you from running through. The MD said no, its a safety hazard as the RO may not be able to follow the competitor, so they altered the stage by stringing up caution tape so you couldn't get through.

joshs
01-31-2014, 09:12 AM
That's not in the USPSA rule book. The current rule requires the action to be a safety issue for the RM to declare the action forbidden.

joshs
01-31-2014, 09:48 AM
This thread got me looking at the new 2014 USPSA handgun rules. I'm very surprised to see this change:

"3.3.1: In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine capacity, that
maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all competitors in the contest. Any
such limitations must be made known to all competitors by the Match Director/Range
Master before the start of the match."

ToddG
01-31-2014, 09:50 AM
That has to be division-based, no? I cannot imagine them forcing everyone in Open & Lim to shoot 10rd or 7!

joshs
01-31-2014, 09:52 AM
That has to be division-based, no? I cannot imagine them forcing everyone in Open & Lim to shoot 10rd or 7!

I think, based on the second sentence, it will be enforced in States with no "grandfather" clause to the state magazine ban. My guess is they don't want to give LEOs in those states a huge advantage in Open and Limited.

cclaxton
01-31-2014, 09:53 AM
Cody take your IDPA hat off for a second, and answer this question honestly. Is there anyone who has shot both an IDPA and USPSA match that thinks the USPSA rules are more complicated and burdensome in terms of how you shoot a match?
I have shot both and like to shoot both. Actually, I don't think anyone would disagree that the scoring system for USPSA is more complicated. There are many who wish USPSA would adopt Time+ scoring like IDPA. And, the equipment rules for USPSA and IPSC seem more complicated and, in some cases, more restrictive than IDPA. (i.e. Production Div).

I think where things seem simpler in USPSA is right after the buzzer goes off until the last round is fired. And, I will concede that point. But when it comes to actually comparing the rulesets and rulebooks, I can't believe anyone would think that IDPA has more complicated rules. I concede they are more restrictive in some areas, and that is by design.

BUt this thread was not about IDPA. I honestly want to know the differences between IPSC and USPSA. They are often used interchangeably, but they are obviously not the same.
Cody

cclaxton
01-31-2014, 10:05 AM
That's not in the USPSA rule book. The current rule requires the action to be a safety issue for the RM to declare the action forbidden.
This exact language is in REv 5 of the rulebook. Did it get revised?
Cody

joshs
01-31-2014, 10:15 AM
This exact language is in REv 5 of the rulebook. Did it get revised?
Cody

I guess this isn't technically effective until tomorrow, but here is the 2014 language.

3.2.6 In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course
requirements, and that action creates a safety issue, the Range Master
must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may
rule that the action is allowed and the competitor’s score will stand.
Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course
of fire, and/or may declare that the action is “forbidden” for safety
reasons. (See Rule 2.3, including subsections)

PPGMD
01-31-2014, 10:50 AM
I have shot both and like to shoot both. Actually, I don't think anyone would disagree that the scoring system for USPSA is more complicated. There are many who wish USPSA would adopt Time+ scoring like IDPA. And, the equipment rules for USPSA and IPSC seem more complicated and, in some cases, more restrictive than IDPA. (i.e. Production Div).

The scoring system isn't that complicated, it just isn't something that you can do on a calculator. You take the points that the score and divide by the time to get hit factor. To get the overall standing the person with the highest hit factor for a given division gets 100% of the points from the stage and that is set as the 100% hit factor or high hit factor, everyone below him get a percentage of the points based on what their hit factor is in relation to the HHF. You add up all the points gained from each stage to get the division winner.

So lets say you have a 20 shot stage, that has 100 points available. The person that won the stage got a hit factor of 6, thus he gets 100 points. Lets say someone further down the list got a hit factor of 3, he gets 50 points.

Now as far as equipment rules, in some ways it is more complicated as there are more things allowed, thus they have to place limitations.

But overall the best way to explain it:
The gun must weigh within 2oz of the declared weight (which are on the NROI list of approved production guns)
Anything internal that doesn't disable is a safety is allowed (the guide rod is considered internal)

The following external modifications are allowed -
stippling or other grip enhancements as long as it is within the areas show in the rule book (just the normal grip area)
Replacing barrel - as long as it matches factor caliber and contour
Painting the gun - as long as the paint isn't texture to provide additional grip
Replacing the sights - as long as they are notch and post
Milling the slide to fit replacement sights
You may replace other external parts with ones that are approved on other production guns by the same company (for example you can replace a Glock 17s mag release with the extended one from the Glock 34)

So unlike IDPA there is a list of things allowed, they simply have limitations applied to them.

OTOH once I start shooting typically all I have to worry about is safety rules and foot faults (since I can't easily feel them with my right leg).

cclaxton
01-31-2014, 02:15 PM
So, when someone advertises an IPSC match here in the US, is it REALLY a USPSA match? Or, is it REALLY an IPSC match?

I am still struggling to understand the main differences. Seems to me it comes down to two things: Equipment and Targets. I assume scoring is the same?
thanks,
Cody

joshs
01-31-2014, 02:21 PM
So, when someone advertises an IPSC match here in the US, is it REALLY a USPSA match? Or, is it REALLY an IPSC match?

I am still struggling to understand the main differences. Seems to me it comes down to two things: Equipment and Targets. I assume scoring is the same?
thanks,
Cody

Very few clubs in the US run IPSC matches. Mid-Carolina used to run the US IPSC Nationals, but I think they've now been moved to Universal Shooting Academy. From the shooter's perspective, there is very little difference other than the equipment rules and no "metric" targets.

Sal Picante
01-31-2014, 03:02 PM
So, when someone advertises an IPSC match here in the US, is it REALLY a USPSA match? Or, is it REALLY an IPSC match?

I am still struggling to understand the main differences. Seems to me it comes down to two things: Equipment and Targets. I assume scoring is the same?
thanks,
Cody

Pretty much what joshs said...

I'll add that some clubs still use "ISPC" in their titles since they don't want to change, etc... (McHenry IPSC Shooting Society - since 1982...)

There are some subtle differences on needing to engage/not engage some disappearing targets or not, and additionally, some very subtle production equipment limitations.
One big difference is that USPSA matches generally have folks walking/looking at stages a day ahead of time. This is a no-no in IPSC where you get a 2 minute limit on stage walk through...

Chemsoldier
01-31-2014, 03:11 PM
So, when someone advertises an IPSC match here in the US, is it REALLY a USPSA match? Or, is it REALLY an IPSC match?

I am still struggling to understand the main differences. Seems to me it comes down to two things: Equipment and Targets. I assume scoring is the same?
thanks,
Cody
One issue is the term "IPSC" is used by some match advertising the way "Karate" is used in the martial arts advertising world. A generic term for an action pistol match. I will leave it to others on the fine details between IPSC and USPSA because to be honest I dont really have a decent handle on it.

cclaxton
01-31-2014, 04:47 PM
Very few clubs in the US run IPSC matches. Mid-Carolina used to run the US IPSC Nationals, but I think they've now been moved to Universal Shooting Academy. From the shooter's perspective, there is very little difference other than the equipment rules and no "metric" targets.
OK, I think I get it now. I assume an REAL IPSC match is probably held to attract or support international shooters who are more familiar with the IPSC in their home countries?
Everybody else just kinda inherited the IPSC title but shoot under USPSA rules.
Did I get it right?
cody

PPGMD
01-31-2014, 04:53 PM
So, when someone advertises an IPSC match here in the US, is it REALLY a USPSA match? Or, is it REALLY an IPSC match?

At the club level, almost always yes. Almost all the IPSC matches are are regional or the nationals.


I am still struggling to understand the main differences. Seems to me it comes down to two things: Equipment and Targets. I assume scoring is the same?

Targets yes. The BIGGEST difference is that IPSC production is an almost completely stock division and they can load to 15 rounds. IPSC Production is what gives birth to the stock competition guns like the CZ Shadow, and Tanfoglio Stock Series.

Sal Picante
01-31-2014, 09:46 PM
OK, I think I get it now. I assume an REAL IPSC match is probably held to attract or support international shooters who are more familiar with the IPSC in their home countries?
Everybody else just kinda inherited the IPSC title but shoot under USPSA rules.
Did I get it right?
cody

Bingo, boss-man.

JAD
02-01-2014, 07:28 AM
One issue is the term "IPSC" is used by some match advertising the way "Karate" is used in the martial arts advertising world.

Does that make it the Dane Cook of shooting sports?

BigT
02-01-2014, 11:33 AM
Some of the differences off the top of my head. Bearing in mind we don't shoot USPSA here.

in IPSC we are only allowed to walk through once the briefing has been given. Then there is normally a five minute walk through. We may not set foot on the stage before this.

Gear wise

IPSC production is a bit stricter. No refinishing or aftermarket parts aside from sights and grips. 5" barrel length max. 15 shot capacity limit. 5lb trigger pull requirement for the first shot fired. We can use race rigs and magnets in production.

Standard guns (similar to limited) must fit the box.

This is is outside my experience but based on what Ben Stoeger has described IPSC is a little less hoser than USPSA. Harder shots. Etc.

No humanoid targets anymore. Only amoebas and steel.

BigT
02-01-2014, 11:34 AM
Almost forget aside from Open gear must be behind the front of the hip bone. So no AIWB.

PPGMD
02-01-2014, 02:22 PM
This is is outside my experience but based on what Ben Stoeger has described IPSC is a little less hoser than USPSA. Harder shots. Etc.

That is more a function of the MD and stage designer.

lightning fast
02-03-2014, 12:08 AM
Almost forget aside from Open gear must be behind the front of the hip bone. So no AIWB.

Open, Limited, and L10 all allow gear in front of the hip bone. Origami shoots in Limited with his AIWB rig.

BigT
02-03-2014, 12:49 AM
Open, Limited, and L10 all allow gear in front of the hip bone. Origami shoots in Limited with his AIWB rig.


Not in IPSC, Which has Standard not Limited and no L10 at all.

jthhapkido
02-06-2014, 04:29 PM
In IPCS, moving outside of the fault lines during the course of fire is a procedural penalty. In USPSA, you only get a procedural penalty if you fire a shot while outside.

In other words, in USPSA you can take movement shortcuts through a stage. In IPSC, you can't.


On the Enos forums, a thread about this was started up, and one individual made a sharable document about the differences.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175649#entry1941826

http://www.scribd.com/doc/144970593/Differences-Between-USPSA-and-IPSC-Rule-Books

PPGMD
02-06-2014, 04:46 PM
In IPCS, moving outside of the fault lines during the course of fire is a procedural penalty. In USPSA, you only get a procedural penalty if you fire a shot while outside.

In other words, in USPSA you can take movement shortcuts through a stage. In IPSC, you can't.

Is that new, because I remember seeing people at the IPSC World Shoot in Greece doing just that.