IDPA and Lights???

[NETim]

Why does IDPA prohibit the use of lanyards, rings etc, on flashlights during a match?

Surely their use can't be considered "not in the spirit of the game?" I would think they would encourage their use. :confused:

[PPGMD]

Why does IDPA prohibit the use of lanyards, rings etc, on flashlights during a match?

Surely their use can't be considered "not in the spirit of the game?" I would think they would encourage their use. :confused:

The exact quote
"We don't want an equipment race."

Yes that answer is baffling. They are very practical, come with quite a few lights for free. Even for the lights where they don't come with it, they can be made or purchased for less than $20.

[orionz06]

Strange rules for a game that pretends to be an approximation of something real.

[cclaxton]

These are the rules:
8.8.4. Lights:
8.8.4.1. Only hand held lights may be used in IDPA competition. For Physically Disabled shooters, refer to Physically Disabled Shooters Section.
8.8.4.2. Lights may not be attached to the shooter’s hand, wrist, or arm in any fashion.
8.8.4.3. Rings or straps that go around any part of the shooter’s body (finger, palm, wrist, etc.) are not allowed.
8.8.4.4. Lanyards may be present, but may not be used.
8.8.4.5. Police and military personnel using the Duty Gear Exemption with a weapon mounted light may not activate the mounted light, but may use a hand held light per this section

Without knowing the discussions that went on inside the meetings that made this decision, it is hard to say. There are a number of rules that, on the surface, appear to be unnecessary or unfair. It is a waste of time and words to start asking why. That being said, I think it would be good if IDPA published a book on why certain rules are the way they are, or talked about it in the journal. Maybe they will do that someday. Until then we are left to interpret the intention of the rules by embracing them as they are.

But, let's take a look at the rules as they are:
1) the rules are designed to have the shooter use a flashlight as a separate item, not tied to the weapon or the shooter,
2) The rules require the shooter to either shoot two-handed while holding the handgun, or gun in one hand and flashlight in the other;
3) The shooter may not illuminate a room by tossing the light on the table or the ground without incurring a penalty.
4) The lanyard or rings may not be used to create an effect of it being attached to the person's body parts.
5) The rules are NOT telling the shooter how to hold the flashlight;
6) the rules are NOT telling the shooter whether to shoot two-hand or strong hand (although the COF could specify that);
7) The rules are NOT telling the shooter where to hold or how to hold the flashlight...many methods exist.
8) The rules are NOT telling the shooter what kind of flashlight to use, what brightness, what beam pattern, what color, how it gets turned ON, etc. Shooters choice.

First, it requires shooters to learn the most basic, unassisted manner to use a flashlight while shooting. And, that is a good thing to know how to do. When a fight happens you may not have your preferred light, for example. Any flashlight will do. [I am sure someone will argue their preferred flashlight never leaves their side...sh*t happens...you may not have it when you need it]

Secondly, due to the variety of ways in which a lanyard or combat right, velcro, wrist-mounted lights, and other mechanisms were being used, it was creating an unfair situation for shooters who get the newest things from their sponsors that no one else can get. And, it was starting to create a equipment race where people felt compelled to spend more money to get the latest gadget, if it was not backordered. Imagine one top shooter gets the latest wristlight as a prototype from his sponsor and no one else can get one...it creates and unfair competitive advantage. By requiring only a basic flashlight, it levels the playing field.

Thirdly, it focuses the shooter on really figuring out how to shoot with a flashlight rather than how to gadget his way around it. This is a good thing.

I hope this doesn't turn into another IDPA-bashing party...it is a waste of time and energy.

I have found the best way to understand the intention of the rules is to embrace them and shoot under the rules. You will then understand why. You may still think it should be changed, and no one will deny you that opinion. But at least you will understand it.

Contrary to popular opinion, the rules were very carefully crafted and were debated, sometimes ad-nauseum. At some point a decision had to be made. Anyone who makes policy decisions will get this immediately. You have to make the decision and move on.

I hope this helps.

[orionz06]

The rules are the rules and no one can change them but I am not sure they were carefully crafted nor will embracing them help me understand them.

[ToddG]

Why does IDPA prohibit the use of lanyards, rings etc, on flashlights during a match?

Because someone important imagined some kind of specific, off beat scenario where a particular gear mod would give a gamer a tiny advantage and IDPA hates that.

I'm one of the biggest defenders of IDPA around here and even I agree this whole topic is beyond embarrassing for them.

And fwiw, I don't use rings or lanyards on my EDC light. But tons of folks do, there are tons of benefits to them for certain applications, and disallowing what is otherwise a shooter's true normal ordinary everyday flashlight as "too gamey" just gives the IDPA detractors an easy target to attack.

It's a freakin' flashlight, IDPA. If people are winning and losing matches because of lanyards, there is something inherently wrong with the game/stages.

edited to add: I've got nothing against the prohibition on truly "body mounted" lights. Even if some folks use them and they can be engaged practically, that really would be a game-changing benefit compared to the guy running a 6P in his hand.

[cclaxton]

The rules are the rules and no one can change them but I am not sure they were carefully crafted nor will embracing them help me understand them.
The rules can change. That is a fact. We have a new rulebook and the rules changed. We had an update to the rules with clarifications, so they were tweaked. And, with good reason they can change. That is a fact. But shooting without a lanyard is not going to hurt anyone. Do you really think we should subject every rule in IDPA to public debate?...Really?
Cody

[orionz06]

Honestly, yes. In all games. A majority of the rules would be fine but why not debate the sketchy ones that don't accomplish anything?

My best guess as to the reason why it may be a disallowed item is one can potentially shoot better with a lanyard depending on their chosen position.

If they didn't want an equipment race we would all shoot the same gun in each class and guns with advantages over a HiPoint would not be allowed.

[BigT]

Awesome so in the real shooting sport not only must I move my pistol from that unrealistic AIWB rig to a far more practical Comp Tac International, But I must also remember when I put on my range only fishing vest,that the torch I carry everyday in my pocket with its Raven clip attached is impractical and gamer and must ,logically, be replaced with another that I cant carry everyday.

Totally legit

[YVK]

The rules are the rules and no one can change them but I am not sure they were carefully crafted nor will embracing them help me understand them.

Agree.
Again, contrived regulations. It is an equipment race anyway. Lumens, shapes, sizes all are used for an advantage.
IDPA can't seem to understand that less restrictions and regulations is actually better. Set up a max size so it is a reasonably concealable and just let people shoot. Let people do what they want. Maybe somebody will find a new way or something. People keep saying how many practical techniques and methods came out of competition. IDPA is doing its best that doesn't happen again.

[cclaxton]

Honestly, yes. In all games. A majority of the rules would be fine but why not debate the sketchy ones that don't accomplish anything?

My best guess as to the reason why it may be a disallowed item is one can potentially shoot better with a lanyard depending on their chosen position.

If they didn't want an equipment race we would all shoot the same gun in each class and guns with advantages over a HiPoint would not be allowed.
Nobody is telling you which flashlight to buy.
Cody

[cclaxton]

Agree.
Again, contrived regulations. It is an equipment race anyway. Lumens, shapes, sizes all are used for an advantage. None of those features will make any significant difference. The biggest factor is how to grip the flashlight and how quickly you can aim and shoot accurately...the fundamental competitive feature of the sport.

IDPA can't seem to understand that less restrictions and regulations is actually better. Set up a max size so it is a reasonably concealable and just let people shoot. Let people do what they want. Maybe somebody will find a new way or something. People keep saying how many practical techniques and methods came out of competition. IDPA is doing its best that doesn't happen again.
Actually, I think it is you who doesn't understand that rules matter. Using that logic we shouldn't require cover, concealment, or any other defensive features...wait...there is a sport for that....it's called USPSA. So, IDPA is different. Some like Mexican food, some like Italian. I happen to like both.
Cody

[YVK]

Actually, the do. There is a reason why I carry an HDS light over my previous Surefire. Smaller, easier to grip, better flood, and even peripheral light hit gives good illumination unlike with an older light.

There is a big difference between good rules and bad rules. The former promote and protect the sport, the latter suffocate it. Clamping down on more efficient ways of using lights in the name of race nonproliferation is pretty dumb, imo.

[orionz06]

Rules do matter but rules can be good, dumb, and silly.

[cclaxton]

Rules do matter but rules can be good, dumb, and silly.
Well, I don't think the flashlight rules are dumb or silly. I don't think the reasons I stated are dumb or silly, although they are based on my speculation resulting from the rules themselves. I think the more valid criticisms are that they are too restrictive to allow for personal preference or don't make enough of a difference in competition to matter. Professionals who have been involved in IDPA and USPSA and pistol shooting for decades together made these decisions. Until I can prove otherwise I am going to take the rules at face value. You are entitled to disagree, but don't you think it would be more useful to talk about the most effective ways to shoot with a flashlight without gadgets rather than complaining about the rules?
Cody

[breakingtime91]

Nobody is telling you which flashlight to buy.
Cody

No one said that?

[taadski]

snip...but don't you think it would be more useful to talk about the most effective ways to shoot with a flashlight without gadgets rather than complaining about the rules?
Cody

Perhaps except the OP asked a question regarding the reasons for the rules and not about flashlight techniques, no?


Why does IDPA prohibit the use of lanyards, rings etc, on flashlights during a match? Surely their use can't be considered "not in the spirit of the game?" I would think they would encourage their use.

[ToddG]

You are entitled to disagree, but don't you think it would be more useful to talk about the most effective ways to shoot with a flashlight without gadgets rather than complaining about the rules?

Why is "the most effective way without gadgets" a valid qualifier? We're not talking about race gear, we're talking about true common practical gear used by tons of CCWers, cops, and soldiers every day for real.

Any rule that is sacrosanct from question or criticism needs the most scrutiny, not the least.

[Chris Rhines]

Any rule that is sacrosanct from question or criticism needs the most scrutiny, not the least.

QFT.

IDPA, as an organization, suffers from two major institutional problems. The almost primitivist attitude towards equipment is one of them. There is a lot to be gained from using competition as a proving ground for better gear, but the IDPA rules forbid that kind of innovation.

I don't like it.

[ToddG]

The "proving ground for gear" thing is a matter of opinion. It's a balance and IDPA leans one way, USPSA Open leans the opposite. IDPA isn't trying to break new ground. It's trying to be a playing field for accepted gear. If you want to experiment, it's the wrong game.

[NETim]

Thanks, I think I got my answer. My EDC light has nothing hanging off of it save for the easily broken pocket clip. (Are you listening Surefire?) My main "battle light" (Blackhawk! Gladius) has an "O" ring on it.

When I exit a store after sunset, the Gladius is in my hand, with the "O" ring on my support hand index finger. I'm a fan of "O" rings on lights.

I can see the logic now for using a light in a match with no lanyards etc, as that could easily be the only thing available in some instances. I don't see it as a shooting aid though. It's just a retention device. However, I did notice that the IDPA will allow the RO to fire up his or her light if a light is dropped during a stage to help the shooter find the dropped light. I don't know if that kind of assistance can be expected IRL though. :) I suspect though that's a nod to practicality to keep the match moving as well as safety.

I understand rules are rules. It's nice to know the reasoning behind them is all. I guess I'd better start practicing w/o the "O" ring thing.

[GJM]

My view is, when faced with a choice between more rules or less rules, the decision to have the least rules possible while maintaining the spirit of the organization is preferable. Inordinate amounts of time can be consumed trying to make new rules, and almost nobody likes being subject to them. History confirms this, whether it be the birth of our country, decisions by states on what you can and can not have, company rules, games such as IDPA, or even forums.

[PPGMD]

The "proving ground for gear" thing is a matter of opinion. It's a balance and IDPA leans one way, USPSA Open leans the opposite. IDPA isn't trying to break new ground. It's trying to be a playing field for accepted gear. If you want to experiment, it's the wrong game.

I would say that the lanyard is fairly well accepted gear. Surefire sends out the paracord to attach it to most of the non-low end lights. For those that threw them away at IDPA nationals I could probably set up a booth selling lanyard kits (including a lanyard ring for the lights without the loop built in) for $10 and a half descent profit.

The lanyard light ban is one of the stupidest ban that they could've done.

Now I understand WHY they did it. The purpose built ring lights like the Tomahawk are much easier to shoot with. But lanyards aren't about shooting they are about retaining the light while reloading and doing other tasks. But rather than trying to figure out a way to ban these lights that were legitimately causing gamers to reconsider their Surefires, they decide to ban everything. At the very least the rule needs to be revised to allow paracord lanyards.

[ToddG]

I only meant "proving ground" in the broad sense. In fact, agreeing with what you said, I wouldn't call the normal lanyard for the rings something that is being proven... it's well proved and established. The Tomahawk was an altogether different thing and really did hit IDPA square in the face: the benefit made it worth buying one just for the game under some circumstances.

[KevinB]

Well, I don't think the flashlight rules are dumb or silly. I don't think the reasons I stated are dumb or silly, although they are based on my speculation resulting from the rules themselves. I think the more valid criticisms are that they are too restrictive to allow for personal preference or don't make enough of a difference in competition to matter. Professionals who have been involved in IDPA and USPSA and pistol shooting for decades together made these decisions. Until I can prove otherwise I am going to take the rules at face value. You are entitled to disagree, but don't you think it would be more useful to talk about the most effective ways to shoot with a flashlight without gadgets rather than complaining about the rules?
Cody

Sorry they are idiots

I could go on a long winded talk about weapons mounted lights - and the VAST increases in hit probability and decreased times to find, fix, and ID a target with a WML, but they are not allowed in IDPA :rolleyes:

I've long ago given up on gun games as any realistic setup --- I have issued with KSTG too, but I accept that I just get not scored with others for running my WML

I simply WTF IDPA for its handheld rules -- who gives a crap what you have on your flashlight -- its is concealable...

[ToddG]

So the WML is a great example of conflict between priorities:


Do plenty of people use them? Sure. But as a percentage of real CCW guns it's ridiculously small.
They add significantly to the cost of the gun and if there's an advantage as you say, then it becomes pretty much a requirement.
The add weight to the front of the gun so even when they're not being used for anything else, they provide a shooting advantage and again become a requirement to be on an even field.

[KevinB]

I shoot my M&P faster and definitely draw faster without it.

I simply accept the ID benefits -- plus I am required to carry a WML.

[JeffJ]

I could go on a long-winded rant about how I don't want a WML for my CCW :rolleyes:

I think in low light matches there should be some sort of side-category for WML though. I also agree that wrist lanyards should be allowed. Although I could give 2 kittens about IDPA rules (either real kittens or euphemistic p-f kittens - your choice)

[JMS]

primitivist

Not directly related to all of this, but I'm using THAT term the next time I have occasion to try to describe the differences between minimalist (sensible, capable) and minimalist (stupid, cheap).

[KevinB]

I could go on a long-winded rant about how I don't want a WML for my CCW :rolleyes:
But I could articulate my rationale based on year of experience ;)




I think in low light matches there should be some sort of side-category for WML though. I also agree that wrist lanyards should be allowed. Although I could give 2 kittens about IDPA rules (either real kittens or euphemistic p-f kittens - your choice)

Why run different setups?

I'm fine with a different class - if it makes folks feel better -- I carry my pistol with WML on it near 24/7/365 in an IWB holster - with the exception of when its in a duty holster, but still has WML on it...

[cclaxton]

I would say that the lanyard is fairly well accepted gear. Surefire sends out the paracord to attach it to most of the non-low end lights. For those that threw them away at IDPA nationals I could probably set up a booth selling lanyard kits (including a lanyard ring for the lights without the loop built in) for $10 and a half descent profit.

The lanyard light ban is one of the stupidest ban that they could've done.

Now I understand WHY they did it. The purpose built ring lights like the Tomahawk are much easier to shoot with. But lanyards aren't about shooting they are about retaining the light while reloading and doing other tasks. But rather than trying to figure out a way to ban these lights that were legitimately causing gamers to reconsider their Surefires, they decide to ban everything. At the very least the rule needs to be revised to allow paracord lanyards.

As far as I know the rules permit a paracord lanyard, as long as the lanyard is not used. The issue with the lanyard has to do with how it was being used by some shooters. What was happening, and actually Vogel started this, is using the lanyard to effectively strap the flashlight to his hand. Then flashlight vendors were starting to design lanyards to be strapped-on. Then, SO's were being asked to determine when a lanyard was a lanyard and not just another means to strap the light to the person's body. Then, that's not much different than having a Surefire wristlight... You see where this ends up going? The decision was to avoid trying to make judgement calls about how the lanyard was used. Just to reiterate, there is nothing wrong with requiring people to use a flashlight without a lanyard IN COMPETITION. Over time as technology advances, I would think this rule will change and more will be allowed.
Cody

[Adam]

Because dems the rules.

IDPA has become so watered down and rule heavy to prevent "gaming" while at the same time the a huge portion of the game is pointed to G34s OWB at 3:00 under clothing that no one wears in public. You just have to take it for what it is and get what you can out of it.

[cclaxton]

8.2.7. Not For Competition
8.2.7.1. IDPA encourages shooters to practice their gun handling skills with commonly carried firearms. Many everyday carry firearms do not fit into the 5 competition divisions.
8.2.7.2. IDPA allows clubs to add a “Not for Competition” scoring division for Tier 1 matches only. This allows calibers smaller than 9mm, carry optics, and other pistols which do not fit into the 5 competition divisions to participate in local club matches.
8.2.7.3. All other IDPA equipment rules apply for holsters and loading device holders as well as their placement on the body. Match Directors also have the option to allow junior shooters with .22 rimfire firearms to begin strings at low ready in lieu of requiring a holster.
8.2.7.4. All IDPA membership rules apply.
8.2.7.5. Clubs are not required to implement this provision, and Match Directors are allowed discretion with implementation so that match quality remains high.

This provision allows clubs to allow WML's and Lasers for shooters who wish to use them at the discretion of the club MD. You will still get a score you can compare to overall times. NFC score.
Cody

[PPGMD]

As far as I know the rules permit a paracord lanyard, as long as the lanyard is not used. The issue with the lanyard has to do with how it was being used by some shooters. What was happening, and actually Vogel started this, is using the lanyard to effectively strap the flashlight to his hand. Then flashlight vendors were starting to design lanyards to be strapped-on. Then, SO's were being asked to determine when a lanyard was a lanyard and not just another means to strap the light to the person's body. Then, that's not much different than having a Surefire wristlight... You see where this ends up going? The decision was to avoid trying to make judgement calls about how the lanyard was used. Just to reiterate, there is nothing wrong with requiring people to use a flashlight without a lanyard IN COMPETITION. Over time as technology advances, I would think this rule will change and more will be allowed.
Cody

Actually that is easy to deal with, have a simple test.

Something to the effect of. With the lanyard or ring attached to the competitor if the competitor releases the light it dangles freely not holding the light in any particular direction.

You can add more or edit it but that is a rather simple test to see if the lanyard or ring provides a competitive advantage.

[orionz06]

Can't have them gamers playing our game.

[jetfire]

One of the things to understand about IDPA is that from an administrative standpoint, they'd rather err on the side of preventing an unfair advantage than allowing people to "stretch" the rules. It's much easier from an enforcement standpoint to say "no rings, lanyards, etc" than it is to say "this lanyard is okay, but this one is not."

I am also proud of the fact that I'm partly responsible for a different IDPA flashlight rule - the one where it's a procedural to abandon your light during a stage.

[Mr_White]

I am also proud of the fact that I'm partly responsible for a different IDPA flashlight rule - the one where it's a procedural to abandon your light during a stage.

There should be an exception to that rule for when the batteries go all 'rogue nation' on you and light on fire. Then it is obviously an issue governed by the Doctrine of Competing Harms and clearly justified to abandon the flashlight. ;)

[JAD]

There should be an exception to that rule for when the batteries go all 'rogue nation' on you and light on fire.

HTFU.

[jetfire]

There should be an exception to that rule for when the batteries go all 'rogue nation' on you and light on fire. Then it is obviously an issue governed by the Doctrine of Competing Harms and clearly justified to abandon the flashlight. ;)

I imagine if actual flames were coming out of the light, you'd just chuck it downrange and get bonus points for using an improvised incendiary device.

[Mr_White]

HTFU.

If you stow that light with flaming batteries in your pants, you are not going to be hard for long.

[JAD]

get bonus points

If IDPA had style points, I would not only still be playing, I would be sponsored.

[cclaxton]

Friend of mine stowed his Older Series Surefire in his pocket. It turned on because of the way he was sitting and it melted through his pants pocket and fell on the floor.
No flames, thankfully.
Cody

[littlejerry]

It seems like a requirement to draw a flashlight from concealment would negate some of the "gamey" body mounted methods they are trying to avoid.

Or we can all cower in fear of equipment races involving 25 cent o rings and 10 cent lengths of paracord in a game using 100 dollar flashlights and 500 dollar guns.

But this is in line with the "Its a tactical game that isn't real but teaches you tactics sort of, except when the rules contradict real life tactics, because its a game. But its tactical"