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jslaker
06-10-2011, 09:29 PM
Thought it might be interesting to see what kind of round count per range session people are finding to be the sweet spot in terms of training value.

My general range time dropped off drastically last year due to a number of factors -- time being the big one -- and I've only recently been getting back closer to an amount of shooting that I'm happy with. Part of being out of practice is that I've noticed that much beyond around 120-130 rounds into a session, fatigue starts noticeably and rapidly kicking in. My sight focus starts to fall apart and trigger control tends to go with it. I'll go from putting rounds into a 2" circle with ease to dropping shots on a paper plate at the same distance.

Basically, with two boxes I feel I'm productive; try to bump it to three and I'm just slinging lead downrange by the end of the session. I'm sure this will improve some with time as my body readjusts, but it's basically forced me to focus on shorter, more frequent trips rather than longer, more varied ones for the time being.

What kind round counts do you feel most productive with?

JHC
06-11-2011, 04:49 AM
250-300 has felt like a sweet spot for me. That's because I'll often see the best performances after some drills etc and so that's the stage that can be most gratifying/exciting.

All the fatigue signals you described creeping in after that. And that's pretty consistently what I hit every Sunday morning. Some more, some less. Some with rifle work first.

ToddG
06-11-2011, 05:39 AM
Like any activity, your ability to maintain effort depends as much on your routine as your stamina. You need to define your practice session. If it involves sprinting 50yd between 5-shot strings, you're likely to wear out a lot sooner than if you do all of your shooting from a static position in an air conditioned range.

Fatigue can also be overcome by (a) taking breaks and (b) changing the pace. My typical range day starts with a cold drill, then moves on to speed work, followed by marksmanship work, followed by manipulations. If time and ammo allow, I start back at speed and keep rotating through. By changing the pace, I also change my focus so I don't burn out my trigger finger or my eyes.

SouthNarc
06-11-2011, 05:52 AM
My typical range day starts with a cold drill, then moves on to speed work, followed by marksmanship work, followed by manipulations. If time and ammo allow, I start back at speed and keep rotating through. By changing the pace, I also change my focus so I don't burn out my trigger finger or my eyes.

Why speed before working on accuracy Todd? Understood on starting with a cold drill.

CCT125US
06-11-2011, 09:10 AM
If I am using one firearm and working on a specific drill, I find I am also in the 2-300 round range. If I am simply having an evening at the range I may shoot 5-600 rds through several firearms. I generally will shoot a skills / accuracy drill then a command drill or BSA drill up close. Lately (over the past several weeks) I have really been going to the range with solid goals and learning with each round I fire. It truly is amazing what you can learn when you open your mind and the instructor becomes the student again.

JHC
06-11-2011, 10:37 AM
+1 I like to switch back and forth between speed and precision like distant 3x5 cards to vary the pace. Some days shoot some "standards" drills.

Since being chastised about warmnig up and then running 10-15 FAST drills in a row ;)
I've taken to starting ice cold with a FAST or Vice Presidente before starting other stuff.

jetfire
06-11-2011, 12:15 PM
I'll usually shoot 200ish rounds at any given practice session, when I'm running a 1911 that seems to be the sweet spot where I start to get fatigued. The hardest thing for me to learn was that sometimes it's better to just stop shooting than to force my way through bad evolutions. I also changed my practice schedule so that it wasn't on the same days that I would work out, because that kicked fatigue in way earlier than on rest days.

Odin Bravo One
06-11-2011, 05:06 PM
If it is practice, then 200-300 MAX. I won't go beyond that since the local range is usually filled with retards out for their weekly field trip and I cannot stand to be around them for longer than it takes to get through that many rounds. Plus, there is some diminished return at a certain point. I try to have a plan when I go out, and stick to it as best as reasonably possible. I set the plan up for 200-250, then I get a few more magazines worth to work on anything I did not do well, or someplace I feel needs additional work.

If it is training, 700-900 rounds in a day is not uncommon. Understanding that much of that is heavy volume shooting, and it is not always necessarily beneficial to burn that much powder. But it can be mitigated by having a well designed training plan that allows for work on the various aspects of pistol shooting, and like TG said.....giving the trigger finger a break now and again throughout the day by chaning the focus of the training from drill to drill, or exercise to exercise.

jetfire
06-11-2011, 07:13 PM
If it is practice, then 200-300 MAX. I won't go beyond that since the local range is usually filled with retards out for their weekly field trip and I cannot stand to be around them for longer than it takes to get through that many rounds.

This. So very much this. At a general range session, I can only get swept so much or see so many people miss an IDPA target entirely at 7 yards.

JV_
06-11-2011, 07:34 PM
I also do about 250 / session.

Except for safety violations, I try to keep my blinders on. That includes wearing plugs and muffs, it helps muffle out the BS 2 lanes away.

TGS
06-11-2011, 07:40 PM
I usually go 150-200. Anything over 200 without a coach/instructor and I'm just making backwards progress, I think. Sometimes I go more, but it's usually because I'll be with friends and we'll do something creative, like a little competition of some sorts. I shoot at "Sharpshooters" in Lorton for you NoVa guys......I'm sure no one wants to be in there longer than an hour since their AC blows. I actually just came back.....I only ever shoot there in the evenings during the summer.

That's for a practice session.....with a training day in a class, I shoot as much as the class requires and never feel worn out until the end of the day. You get breaks all the time in a class, whereas at the range it's not like I'm going to take a seat and talk to someone while I inhale all that toxic dust in a 90*F/60% humidity range, so I kinda just blast through the rounds mag after mag.

When I lived in Vermont, I was mostly into non-tacticool long guns. I've really liked slow-fire long distance rifle work ever since I was a little kid. I could shoot 50 rounds in an entire day and be happy in that setting, but there's no rifle ranges I know of around here.....not to mention I hate Virginia's weather.

ToddG
06-11-2011, 08:23 PM
Why speed before working on accuracy Todd? Understood on starting with a cold drill.

(1) Because I'll never get to warm up before needing to shoot fast. Slow marksmanship doesn't get a significant boost from a warm-up, but speed definitely does. Speed first means I'm both getting an accurate reflection of what I can do on demand and it's forcing me to deliver ability cold(-ish).

(2) Blazing away for 2-300 rounds makes it hard to dial back and break max-accuracy shots. Again, my thought process is that if a real world situation requires extreme accuracy, discipline is going to be a bigger limiting factor than time.

(3) Serious marksmanship work can be so fatiguing visually and mentally that working speed afterwords can be counter-productive.

GooberTim
06-11-2011, 10:05 PM
(1) Because I'll never get to warm up before needing to shoot fast.

From a novice's perspective as opposed to the likes of ToddG and SouthNarc; my range sessions have almost always began with drawing and putting rounds on target quickly for the above quoted reason. I've been starting with drawing and shooting high probability target with multiple hits, then work on press-out on low probability target one hit only, then 2-3 hits. Transition to slow fire, watching front sight the whole time, as small a group as possible, then speed it up just a bit until the groups get out to mostly 8"-10". While I'm doing this, I'll incorporate reloads. As time permits, between 100 - 300 rounds.

Trainers today seem to be mindful the limitations "Joe Shooter" (myself) has and provide guidance on how best to utilize their training time. ToddG and Ken Hackathorn both shared their knowledge on the subject recently in classes I was fortunate enough to attend. Thanks guys!

irishshooter
06-12-2011, 07:51 AM
250 - 300 rds, but also depends upon the training goal for the day. like any training activity......warm up, drill with fundamentals and then cool down. warm up less than 25 rounds then accuracy, speed, reload drills and finish on cool down fundamentals with accuracy drillagain less than 25 rounds ie. single bullet hole, reset drill. start with accuracy, finish with accuracy.

fuse
06-12-2011, 02:32 PM
I usually go 150-200. Anything over 200 without a coach/instructor and I'm just making backwards progress, I think. Sometimes I go more, but it's usually because I'll be with friends and we'll do something creative, like a little competition of some sorts. I shoot at "Sharpshooters" in Lorton for you NoVa guys......I'm sure no one wants to be in there longer than an hour since their AC blows. I actually just came back.....I only ever shoot there in the evenings during the summer.

That's for a practice session.....with a training day in a class, I shoot as much as the class requires and never feel worn out until the end of the day. You get breaks all the time in a class, whereas at the range it's not like I'm going to take a seat and talk to someone while I inhale all that toxic dust in a 90*F/60% humidity range, so I kinda just blast through the rounds mag after mag.

When I lived in Vermont, I was mostly into non-tacticool long guns. I've really liked slow-fire long distance rifle work ever since I was a little kid. I could shoot 50 rounds in an entire day and be happy in that setting, but there's no rifle ranges I know of around here.....not to mention I hate Virginia's weather.

I too shoot at sharpshooters. I don't think I am going to renew my membership when it runs out, due to the air issue you mentioned, and also that the lighting SUCKS. it is almost low light training, it seems.

I will probably start going to the NRA range exclusively.

Advantages: excellent lighting, excellent air filtering, and the outstanding modern disappearing timed target carriers.

Disadvantages: further away, limited hours, there is usually a wait, and ones actual range time is often limited to an hour.

God I hate this area.

Kyle Reese
06-12-2011, 02:33 PM
I too shoot at sharpshooters. I don't think I am going to renew my membership when it runs out, due to the air issue you mentioned, and also that the lighting SUCKS. it is almost low light training, it seems.

I will probably start going to the NRA range exclusively.

Advantages: excellent lighting, excellent air filtering, and the outstanding modern disappearing timed target carriers.

Disadvantages: further away, limited hours, there is usually a wait, and ones actual range time is often limited to an hour.

God I hate this area.

I like the NRA Range, but wish I could shoot M855 there. There is an outdoor range here in MD, but it's full of sanctimonious Fudds much of the time.

fuse
06-12-2011, 02:34 PM
And I seem to shoot about 100-150, although I definitely go slower due to picking up brass (I reload)

fuse
06-12-2011, 02:37 PM
I like the NRA Range, but wish I could shoot M855 there. There is an outdoor range here in MD, but it's full of sanctimonious Fudds much of the time.

I wish there was a range around here where you could just rent a berm, like in some other parts of the country, apparently.

I know, I am dreaming.

TGS
06-12-2011, 08:24 PM
I wish there was a range around here where you could just rent a berm, like in some other parts of the country, apparently.

I know, I am dreaming.

This area just fucking sucks....the food, lack of good non-chain restaurants, the traffic, the ranges, the (nonexistent) fresh produce, endless urban sprawl...

I grew up in New Jersey. While the gun laws and civil liberties suck, the outdoor ranges, and indoor ranges, are plentiful. Don't get me started on the other stuff....

ToddG
06-13-2011, 06:36 AM
Let's keep this thread about how much people shoot during a practice session, please.

For discussion about how difficult and unpleasant life is in the NoVA area, see here (http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/afghan_06_03/afghanistan5.jpg).

Badfish25
09-10-2011, 10:10 PM
100 rounds a week, it would be more if I could afford it.

Slavex
09-10-2011, 10:34 PM
normally for me is about 350 for a practice. In the last month I've been pushing it hard at practice and aiming for 750-1000 each trip. As soon as I start to see my results drop I change it up or take a break to clean up brass, get a drink or something. 4000 rounds a week a few times and I'm noticing my hands are getting sore. Especially my right hand wrist and thumb. I'm backing off now to let it recuperate before the world shoot. I probably will only shoot 100 rounds the week before I go, and then dry fire a lot in the week before we actually shoot.
wrist and thumb. I'm backing off now to let it recuperate before the world shoot. I probably will only shoot 100 rounds the week before I go, and then dry fire a lot in the week before we actually shoot.

Kyle Reese
09-10-2011, 10:45 PM
300 to 1200 per session.

I seem to recall my Glock 17 getting so hot the water would sizzle on the slide in the rain. :cool:

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

Tamara
09-11-2011, 07:08 AM
As a starving artist, it's usually 50-100 of centerfire and 200+ of deuce-deuce/week. About 1/4 revolver and 3/4 1911-platform.

(And I cheat costs a little more by doing most of my centerfire 1911 work through a 9mm Painted Ordnance LTC; the alloy 9mm Commander jumps around about as much as a steel full-size .45.)

JAD
09-13-2011, 12:18 PM
Usually somewhere between 150 (if it's a Kahr day) and 300 (.38S LWC or .45 GM). I try to start with something dynamic (e.g., draw from an awkward position and fire on multiple targets while retreating diagonally to cover, ending with two precise head shots) and see what I'm doing particularly badly that day. Whatever's the worstest -- drawing, shooting while moving, transitions, or precise shooting -- gets the first fifty, and if I'm happy with progress I move on to the second. Kind of a pareto approach. It depends a lot on that day's carry mode and physical state, I find.

Or, if I'm at the indoor range, I stand there and work on trigger press and sight alignment.

YVK
09-13-2011, 06:49 PM
Generally, 100-120 with 9 mm. Part of it is a preference for regular (weekly, if I can - twice a week) practices with lower volume vs. spread out sessions with higher volume. Then almost all of my practice sessions involve marksmanship drills, and I get tired. Second priority is first shot and reload, and these are low round count drills with multiple reps. Third priority is one-handed shooting and, again, I get tired.

When I switch to 45, my round count goes up, usually 200 per session. Couldn't figure it out first, then realized that firearm control becomes a priority and I end up running more strings-of-fire drills like circle drill etc.

doose
10-19-2011, 06:25 PM
With the little time I have right now (Family, work, etc...) I try to get at least 300 rounds per session. I am going to start reloading soon and I am hoping that will increase the round count to more like 700-800 per session. I would love to take a class or 2 but time constraints have forced that idea to the future.

Al T.
10-20-2011, 09:18 AM
Lately I've focused in on drills more. My max is about 150 centerfire. I shoot alone, so taking some time to analyze and record what I'm doing and how I'm doing slows me down.

ToddG
10-20-2011, 09:24 AM
Last night I fired 400 rounds.


F.A.S.T. cold, three times
2 shots to 3x5 at 7yd in 1.8s, ~20 times
2 shots to 2" at 7yd in 2s, 45 times
1-R-2, 50 times
Max hits in 2s at 7yd, ~20 times
"Sweet Sixteen" marksmanship test

fuse
10-22-2011, 06:47 PM
sweet spot for me seems to be about 200-300 rounds.

DocGKR
10-23-2011, 12:20 AM
200-300 is the most I have time for during a typical practice session. As noted by others, training days have much higher round counts.

Long tom coffin
10-23-2011, 12:28 AM
200-300 is the most I have time for during a typical practice session. As noted by others, training days have much higher round counts.


My limit is 300. Sometimes it's less than that depending on what I'm trying to accomplish at that point.


Past 300, shooter fatigue becomes too great and I've crossed the point of diminishing returns. I'd be pretty much just throwing bullets away with anything more than that.

Corey
10-27-2011, 11:49 AM
I usually shoot 100 to 150 rounds per session. My biggest limiting factor is time. I work two jobs and stop at an indoor range a couple times a week when I leave one job to go to the other. My other limiting factor is my ammo budget. Switching from .45 to 9mm has really helped with that. Because of the limited time, each range session is devoted to working on a particular skill. I normally start with 2 or 3 FAST drills cold. Then if I am working on speed I will do some acceleration drills, bill drills, etc. I try to throw in some reload drills as well. I finish with around 10 rounds of slow fire, precision shooting. I really like the Press 6 drill for a practice session as it works well for both accuracy and pushing my speed, but I mainly consider it an accuracy drill.

I record all my splits for my FAST runs on a spreadsheet to track my progress. I shoot Tom Jones’ Bullseye 1000 and Dot Torture both about once every 6-8 weeks and record those scores to check progress as well. I don’t get nearly as much range time as I would like, but I try to make it quality time. I also dry fire 3 to 5 evenings a week. Those are usually about 15 minute sessions.

rsa-otc
11-10-2011, 07:41 AM
My budget for live fire training time/ammo is about 100 rounds per week. I can usually go thru that much in about 45 min's or less inclusive of setup and cleanup time. I usually do the drill of the week, 48 Drill (basically 1/2 a 99 Drill), Some Dot torture, or other time constrained drills saving 10 rounds for an 25 yard accuracy/fundamentals drill at the very end.

I've been wondering if changing it up to 200 rounds per session every other week would be more conductive to improvement. I'm usually able to get in approx 3 - 1/2 hour or so dry fire sessions per week as well.

Any thoughts?

ToddG
11-10-2011, 10:16 AM
Either way, I'd ditch the static program and try to make the lion's share of each 100rd focused on a limited number of skills. For example, one of the great benefits of the 99 Drill is that you are actually getting in practice by doing things a lot: 33 press outs, 10 reloads, etc. Chopping it down means you're diluting your practice of all those skills. Instead of getting in a little bit of practice on A through F each week, I'd put 80% of my effort into topic A one week, topic B the next, and so on.

rsa-otc
11-10-2011, 11:17 AM
Thanks for the feed back.

Actually the program isn't static. Other than doing the Drill of the Week and the 10 rounds at the end to refocus the fundamentals I change up the drills from week to week. What I laid out wasn't what I do every week but example of drills I do. I cut the 99 drill in half so that there was ammo budgeted for DOTW and the 10 rounds at the end. Basically I'm working on accuracy at speed, draws & reloads, so what ever drill I choose for that week encompasses those aspects. Accuracy has never been my problem, breaking that Q course par time mental block after so many years has at times been problematic.