Need to gun-up for a class in April, but I'm stuck...

[TheTrevor]

PF hive mind, I come to you today humbly seeking your guidance.

I've been shooting HKs for most of my adult life. It's not that I haven't had experience with other platforms -- I'd be a crappy teacher if I wasn't up to speed on most popular families of firearm, and I don't even recommend HKs to new shooters by default. I just love me some HKs.

That said, I have a pistol class coming up in April that's going to be the challenge of my shooting career. It's pretty clear that running an HK in this class, even with a LEM trigger set up exactly the way I like it, is going to be "tolerance stacking" on top of my own (ahem) areas of needed improvement.

Here's where I'm a bit stuck. In recent weeks I've shot representative samples of most of the major pistol families available on the commercial market. I shot well with both the G34/G17 and the M&P9, but liked the M&P waaaay more than the Glocks in terms of how the controls & ergonomics worked in my hands. I've spent a ridiculous number of hours reading M&P reliability & accuracy threads here and elsewhere, so I'm aware of the current thinking on how such issues are caused by both barrel and slide quality.

Long story short (too late!) I'm looking for feedback on three points:

(1) It seems that the M&P40 uses a different slide than the M&P9, yet can be readily converted with a drop-in barrel to reliably run 9mm. This is attractive because I own other service pistols in 40SW, and it would give me the option of shooting heavy 40SW loads in USPSA Limited 10 or running 9mm minor PF loads in Production. Would it be a reasonable gamble to go with the M&P40 and 9mm conversion barrel to try to avoid the 25yd accuracy problems?

(2) Both the 4.25" and 5" barrel "L" variants are readily available. I'm not likely to AIWB-carry the M&P full-size like I do with my HKs, so that's not a consideration. Is it worth getting the long-slide model if I'm going to use it for classes, competition, and occasional carry in the field when I'm out in the countryside?

(3) I'm planning to mount an MRDS, most likely a Leupold Deltapoint. The most expedient option is the CORE model which comes ready to mount optics. However, I really like the rear-sights-ahead-of-MRDS setup I've seen in a couple of places. Go with the sure thing (CORE) or buy the non-CORE model and send it off to be reworked?

The hated CA Roster isn't an issue in this case, but the 1-pistol-per-30-days law and 10-day waiting period mean I need to make a decision very soon if I'm going to be ready by April, especially as I intend to buy a matching pair. Help?

[cclaxton]

On a scale of 1-10, 10 being a Grand Master, where would you rate your handgun shooting skills? (I am asking about Marksmanship, shooting quick/accurate, on the move, etc.) What is your FAST time on average?

If you are 1-4, then good time to make a change. If 5-8, then stick with what you have. If you are 9-10, then you should be able to answer that yourself!
The primary factors of shooting are mental discipline and lots of practice, not the hardware.

Just my opinion.
Cody

[TheTrevor]

The decision I've made is to pick up a second platform better suited for certain types of precision shooting at speed, while maintaining my baseline skills with LEM for defensive use. It's driven by feedback from several folks I respect who have advised me that my LEM guns (or even reverting to HKs sub-par DA/SA) will make the class more challenging than it already is.

To be responsive to your questions regarding my current skill level: I don't suck but I'm not ready to try for GM. I try to be very open regarding my progress in my training journal. I'll share a few benchmarks: On demand, I can consistently draw from concealment to a first shot on an 8-inch target at 3-5yd in ~1.25s. I expect that I'll be able to get my FAST times to come in consistently below 5.0s in 2014. And in my first on-record USPSA match ever, last weekend, I shot a nearly perfect score in stage 2 but for one round 0.1" outside the A-zone, albeit at a leisurely pace.

So... opinions in response to the M&P-related questions would be most welcome.

[SecondsCount]

My first response would be to stay with the HK.

I have an M&P40 that I picked up about a year before the P30 and it sits in the safe. Many times I have contemplated selling but it was relatively cheap to begin with and it shoots well, never showing the accuracy issues people have had with the full size M&P9. Since I reload for 40, I can make loads however I want, soft like a 9mm or hot enough to get'r done. One of the loads is using a 155 lead bullet and was costing under $90 per thousand to make.

There are those on here that have mentioned issues with the 9mm conversion barrels. It had something to do with extraction if I remember right.

[JSGlock34]

I'm just curious what class you are heading to that is making you switch platforms?

Do you currently shoot a MRDS equipped pistol? If so, why not take whatever that is? Having experimented with a Glock/Trijicon RMR setup, I can say first-hand that there are significant tradeoffs in going to the red-dot, and it is not a fast transition. I'm not sure I'd jump to a MRDS prior to a class that I think is going to significantly test my skills.

While the CORE sounds promising, I'm doubtful you'll find a pair that don't exhibit the well known accuracy issues. The MSW writeup on the CORE (http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5381) also made me question its viability in a high round count environment.

[TheTrevor]

Do you currently shoot a MRDS equipped pistol? If so, why not take whatever that is? Having experimented with a Glock/Trijicon RMR setup, I can say first-hand that there are significant tradeoffs in going to the red-dot, and it is not a fast transition. I'm not sure I'd jump to a MRDS prior to a class that I think is going to significantly test my skills.

Fair point. I've been wanting to try MRDS-sighted shooting for a few years now, and the HK slides don't lend themselves to a nice embedded mount like the Glock or M&P designs, so I don't currently have one. That would be kind of the point of getting them as long as I'm buying into a new platform.

My plan was to do some intensive training with the MRDS, then after a few weeks, evaluate how things were going vs shooting with the co-witnessed iron sights. If the MRDS times & scores were showing serious deficiency, then I'd simply strip off the MRDS until after the class and run iron sights only.


While the CORE sounds promising, I'm doubtful you'll find a pair that don't exhibit the well known accuracy issues.

Data or even reliable anecdotes to support that? I've been unable to find any reports of M&P40s showing the same problems, and I have read multiple positive reports regarding the 9mm conversion barrels.


The MSW writeup on the CORE (http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=5381) also made me question its viability in a high round count environment.

Yes, I've read that as well. As much as I respect Hilton Yam's perspective, I was curious as to whether that was a position supported by others on PF. His report is, in fact, the very reason for the CORE-vs-custom question.

[KevH]

I'm confused.

You've shot the H&K most of your pistol-shooting life, you've signed up for some class you think is going to be hard and now you want to swap for something else?

If you now shoot the H&K well and you're used to it then just stick to that. There is nothing wrong with the LEM trigger.

If you feel the need to change platforms to something else then pick whichever one you want. Between M&P and Glock it's more or less six of one and a half dozen the other. I've tried and don't care for MRDS and other such things. If it works for you than knock yourself out.

Changing guns and adding gizmos won't make you a better shooter and are more likely to distract you from the class then enable you to learn from it.

[TheTrevor]

Folks, I appreciate the well-intentioned advice but I'm a reasonably experienced shooter and I have multiple very good reasons for trying a new platform. I shot a rental beater example of the M&P9 full-size on Saturday and was immediately performing with it at a decent level (see my training journal) so I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do just fine with fully upgraded and tuned M&Ps of my own.

Likewise, if the MRDS doesn't work out in the 2.5 months I have for training & preparation, I can take it off and shoot with irons only. Or, y'know, just leave the MRDS turned off and shoot irons-only.

And just to be Captain Obvious, but my backup plan if I'm not getting results from the M&P platform is to shoot the course with my HKs, and accept that I may have to live with the challenges I'm finding with certain types of low-probability shot using the LEM trigger...

Just to reiterate the questions I would very much like to focus on in this discussion:

M&P40 with 9mm conversion barrel: likely to address accuracy issues, unknown quantity or likely to suffer the same issues as the 9mm variant? Anecdotal info says the 40SW slide with third-party conversion barrel might be a good path to 9mm accuracy at 20-25yd.

Regular (4.25") or long-slide (5.0") for my uses: competition, classes & field/household carry but not concealed carry?

M&P CORE optics mount or specialty gunsmith slide machining to add MRDS mount and backup sights?

[ScotchMan]

There's so much here I'm curious about, but none of it has to do with the topics you want to talk about :)

FWIW, I don't see any reason not to get the 5" version for the purposes you've stated. More sight radius, with no downsides for your intended uses. That one is a no-brainer for me (even if you do negate the sight radius benefit with a RDS).

What I am really curious about is how you are finding the LEM lacking. Without taking the topic back off of where you want it to be (although that's exactly what I'm attempting to do), have you experimented with light LEM? You mentioned low probability shots being an issue. What is the pull weight on your LEM? Other than a longer reset, I am scratching my head trying to come up with potential reasons you will do better in a class with a striker gun than with a LEM. If its an 8lb LEM then I understand, but you can get it down to Glock/M&P weights pretty easily.

[MEH]

...and it would give me the option of shooting heavy 40SW loads in USPSA Limited 10 or running 9mm minor PF loads in Production.


May not affect your decision but this is not legal under USPSA rules (conversion barrel in production).

[Vinh]

Very curious to find out what training event would cause a person of your high skill level to suddenly fear low-probability shots with an LEM trigger. If it is what I think it is, I may be able to alleviate your performance concerns.

Go with a 5" model. No experience to comment on MRDS.

[TheTrevor]

May not affect your decision but this is not legal under USPSA rules (conversion barrel in production).

Excellent point, thanks. Didn't know that.

[GJM]

If I was committed to a LEM, I would just go with a LEM in 9, instead of .40.

If I was trying to perform best there, I would shoot almost anything else -- Glock, M&P, Sig, Beretta, CZ. I would 86 the optic, because learning an optic with lots of one hand is tough.

[TheTrevor]

Very curious to find out what training event would cause a person of your high skill level to suddenly fear low-probability shots with an LEM trigger. If it is what I think it is, I may be able to alleviate your performance concerns.

Fear might be too strong of a word. Concern that running LEM may add to the challenge would better describe it, combined with the need to acquire some 9mm guns so I don't develop crippling tendinitis by day 3. I'll PM you.


Go with a 5" model. No experience to comment on MRDS.

Excellent, thanks.

[YVK]

I am on the fence with this myself. Some days I wanna throw my LEM P30 downrange when working out my WHO low prob shots. Other days it isn't as bad as long as I am superconcentrated on trigger control. I think Vinh might be the only person who has done very well at the RSS with LEM, I am curious to know too.

[GJM]

Last I checked, he was only one to have ever shot Advanced there with a LEM. I tried and couldn't with 108 my highest, and 112 and 116 the same day with a 17, despite not having shot a Glock for a few months.

My best guess is LEM is a 5-10 point deduct on your score.

[JV_]

Last I checked, he was only one to have shot Advanced there with a LEM. I tried and couldn't with 108 my highest, and 112 and 116 the same day with a 17, despite not having shot a Glock for a few months.

I can't help but read that as a challenge. It makes me want to go back with a P30 LEM, even though I don't like the trigger, just to see how I'd do.

[TheTrevor]

There's so much here I'm curious about, but none of it has to do with the topics you want to talk about :)

FWIW, I don't see any reason not to get the 5" version for the purposes you've stated. More sight radius, with no downsides for your intended uses. That one is a no-brainer for me (even if you do negate the sight radius benefit with a RDS).

Interestingly, I've found the benefit of long-slide guns to be in recoil control and keeping the muzzle close to flat. That extra mass exactly where you want it, out at the far end of the gun, does make a difference. Sight radius, not so much. I personally have not found the typical ~13% increase in sight radius to make any difference for me.


What I am really curious about is how you are finding the LEM lacking. Without taking the topic back off of where you want it to be (although that's exactly what I'm attempting to do), have you experimented with light LEM? You mentioned low probability shots being an issue. What is the pull weight on your LEM? Other than a longer reset, I am scratching my head trying to come up with potential reasons you will do better in a class with a striker gun than with a LEM. If its an 8lb LEM then I understand, but you can get it down to Glock/M&P weights pretty easily.

I'm running light LEM and TGS/v4 LEM. Each has its attractions. The challenge is with getting a fast AND precise shot break from the LEM trigger one-handed on difficult shots.

[GJM]

I can't help but read that as a challenge. It makes me want to go back with a P30 LEM, even though I don't like the trigger, just to see how I'd do.

Email sent.

[justintime]

my idea is - does it matter if your competitive in the class? Im not sure im tracking, but it sounds like your looking for an easier pistol to shoot to do better in a class which makes me think your looking at it in the wrong way. While the lem MIGHT put you at a disadvantage in being the top shooter in your class, it might allow you to gain more out of the class as well. I would stay with what you have and use it to become a better shooter in the long run.

[TheTrevor]

I am on the fence with this myself. Some days I wanna throw my LEM P30 downrange when working out my WHO low prob shots. Other days it isn't as bad as long as I am superconcentrated on trigger control. I think Vinh might be the only person who has done very well at the RSS with LEM, I am curious to know too.

Glad to know I'm not the only one. I'm also having difficulty with WHO on the LEM, though I'm running it on the USP40.


If I was committed to a LEM, I would just go with a LEM in 9, instead of .40.

The P30/P30L in 9mm is my second choice after the M&P. Substantially more expensive, though, and doesn't really give me an option to try out optics later.


If I was trying to perform best there, I would shoot almost anything else -- Glock, M&P, Sig, Beretta, CZ.

Yep, understood. I've heard that from multiple reliable sources now.


I would 86 the optic, because learning an optic with lots of one hand is tough.

That's what I was wondering. Easy enough to send out slides for machining and suppressor-height sight installation later on, which also answers my question on CORE vs 5" Pro model.

[YVK]

my idea is - does it matter if your competitive in the class? Im not sure im tracking, but it sounds like your looking for an easier pistol to shoot to do better in a class which makes me think your looking at it in the wrong way. While the lem MIGHT put you at a disadvantage in being the top shooter in your class, it might allow you to gain more out of the class as well. I would stay with what you have and use it to become a better shooter in the long run.

You don't necessarily compete against others. It is more of a tiered pass/fail. The course of fire is hard enough that nobody who went there feels that getting the most shootable gat is gaming or detracts from learning.


Glad to know I'm not the only one.


It is predictable. Once your target is hard enough that you can't really run through a trigger pull, you hit that second stage wall and start anticipating. Lesser trigger control proficiency with WHO only makes it worse.
The way I work through this mentally is to tell myself that Glock shooters have to deal with this anticipation break all the time. Practically, I shut down the timer and start working on clean trigger press. If we can do it SHO, we can do it WHO, just a matter of mileage.

[TheTrevor]

my idea is - does it matter if your competitive in the class? Im not sure im tracking, but it sounds like your looking for an easier pistol to shoot to do better in a class which makes me think your looking at it in the wrong way. While the lem MIGHT put you at a disadvantage in being the top shooter in your class, it might allow you to gain more out of the class as well. I would stay with what you have and use it to become a better shooter in the long run.

I'm not looking for easier, that's for sure. I'm pretty sure I'm the opposite of the type who looks for "easier". :)

I'm not looking for top shooter, and in fact don't care about class rankings, which is good because winning "top shot" at this class is somewhere over the far horizon from where I'm standing. I am exclusively focused on getting everything I can out of this class. Since I need to add a pair of 9mm pistols to the arsenal anyway, I'm taking this opportunity to mitigate any equipment-related handicaps which might otherwise get in the way of diagnosing my actual strengths & weaknesses.

I need to get a LOT better at one-handed shooting. I'm not terrible, but by Odin's beard, I'm sure as heck not a virtuoso. I currently run a platform (HK full-size LEM guns) which has been shown by test scores to be more difficult to shoot well one-handed against low-prob targets. I'd like to work on the basic skill using something other than LEM, then once I've made progress, work on transferring that improvement to SHO/WHO on LEM.

[YVK]

I'd like to work on the basic skill using something other than LEM, then once I've made progress, work on transferring that improvement to SHO/WHO on LEM.

Interesting how different people address the same problem in different ways. I went back to LEM to challenge myself with one-handed shooting. I do plan to go back to a nice DA/SA trigger after tightening my trigger control with LEM.

[JV_]

I'm also having difficulty with WHO on the LEMThat was one place where the LEM was very challenging for me. The long trigger pull exacerbates my anticipation issues.

[justintime]

Gotcha - I was just thinking that it might be beneficial to take a harder shooting gun under the instruction of a very good school. With what yvk said it might not be that big of a deal

[GJM]

1) Rogers highly recommends NOT shooting .40 for the class, because it is hard on shooters, and hard on other nearby shooters, over a 2,500 round week. Nobody wants to be in a squad with a .40 shooter, as the roof and other structure amplifies blast.

2) while not anti-LEM, Rogers staff don't have LEM specific experience, and won't have LEM specific coaching tips beyond generic suggestions applying to all platforms.

[Cecil Burch]

I have been shooting an M&Pfs 357sig with a Storm Lake 9mm conversion barrel for a couple of months now and it runs terrific. No accuracy issues (At least gun related - any accuracy issue tend to be shooter caused in this instance). I don't have thousands of round through it yet, but so far, so good. I will be shooting in tomorrow night in my first USPSA competition as a matter of fact, and I feel reasonable sure that the gun will perform far better than I can shoot.

[Mr_White]

I will be shooting in tomorrow night in my first USPSA competition

That is awesome. Good luck and have a great time, Cecil!

[TheTrevor]

Thanks for all the feedback and perspectives. Just to make it fun (for me) I'm going to do my best to keep my final decision on new guns to myself until after the class in April.

[TheTrevor]

It is predictable. Once your target is hard enough that you can't really run through a trigger pull, you hit that second stage wall and start anticipating. Lesser trigger control proficiency with WHO only makes it worse.
The way I work through this mentally is to tell myself that Glock shooters have to deal with this anticipation break all the time. Practically, I shut down the timer and start working on clean trigger press. If we can do it SHO, we can do it WHO, just a matter of mileage.

I think I've got about 3 different things going on that I need to work on with my WHO shooting, and surprisingly, trigger management isn't on the top-3 list. That's not to say that it's just peachy, but ahead of trigger I've got:
* solid, maintainable grip -- very much still working on this...
* sight alignment for natural POA, have yet to find a way to get the sights to line up naturally without some pushing/flexing
* recoil anticipation (see: Trevor's never-ending battle to master 40SW recoil)

You're right that this is something that can be worked through with plenty of miles on the clock. I think it's going to take a lot more work on WHO to get it right compared to SHO, though, simply because most people (myself included) start off with less strength and dexterity in their support hand.

[Wendell]

...the M&P40 uses a different slide than the M&P9, yet can be readily converted with a drop-in barrel to reliably run 9mm. This is attractive because I own other service pistols in 40SW, and it would give me the option of shooting heavy 40SW loads in USPSA Limited 10 or running 9mm minor PF loads in Production...

See 21.3 (http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf).


...Current rules remain in effect - you may replace the barrel with an OEM or aftermarket barrel which is of the same length, contour and caliber as the original barrel for that model of gun... (http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf)

<http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf>

[TheTrevor]

Pretty sure that was covered up-thread, but thanks for the pointer to the specific rule.

[HopetonBrown]

Why is the name of the class a secret? If you take Awerbuck's basic pistol 2 you get to play on the adult range at Reed's.

[JBP55]

Why is the name of the class a secret? If you take Awerbuck's basic pistol 2 you get to play on the adult range at Reed's.

I think the answer is in post 27.

[Dave Williams]

Todd has never shot an HK at Rogers?

When Andy Langley was instructing there, I heard he at least once shot all week with an HK Mark 23 as that's what the students were shooting, how freaking cool is that? I believe he has bad tendonitis from that.

The instructors all favor different guns, Andy Sigs, Adam and Kyle Glocks, Rosie RIP Sigs, Ronnie M&Ps, Bill I think favors Glocks but I've seen him shooting M&Ps and Berettas and I'm sure shot Sigs a lot when the SEALs were training there.

I say shoot what you carry and don't worry about the score.

[GJM]

Todd has never shot an HK at Rogers?

When Andy Langley was instructing there, I heard he at least once shot all week with an HK Mark 23 as that's what the students were shooting, how freaking cool is that? I believe he has bad tendonitis from that.

The instructors all favor different guns, Andy Sigs, Adam and Kyle Glocks, Rosie RIP Sigs, Ronnie M&Ps, Bill I think favors Glocks but I've seen him shooting M&Ps and Berettas and I'm sure shot Sigs a lot when the SEALs were training there.

I say shoot what you carry and don't worry about the score.

I think TLG has shot a Beretta 92G, Sig 220 and Glock 17 at Rogers, but never an HK. Bill Rogers says his preference, in order of shootability is Beretta, Sig, then Glock/M&P (tie). Bill has shot Advanced with a USP and P7, but doesn't care for the LEM trigger one hand. I believe only one person has shot Advanced with a LEM, as referenced earlier in this thread. I have tried and given up, with 108 my best with the LEM. My school test scores that visit were 96 and 108 with the LEM, 110 and 115 with a M&P, and 112 and 116 with a Glock 17, despite having gone steady with the P30 for a few months.

[Cecil Burch]

That is awesome. Good luck and have a great time, Cecil!


Thanks dude. I am really excited. It is a weekly "fun shoot" that the local league puts on, so it seems like the best place to test the waters.

[JAD]

Not for nothin', but a rss trip would force me to seriously reexamine my carry tool. If I didn't think I'd do well with it at rss, but thought it was good enough for life, I'd have to wonder if rss was going to further my real shooting goals.

Right now it'd be a choice between a G17, a bhp, or a 1911, or spending out and getting into a SIG. I think it would be a very tough call. It's something I hope to have to think about next year, so thanks for bringing it up.

[ToddG]

First: apology for hit and run posts from me on the forum over the next few weeks. Since I won't be getting involved in back and forth discussions folks are free to just disagree with whatever I say as long as they don't take it personally that I'm ignoring them.

1: There is absolutely nothing wrong with the LEM. In my experience most of the people who struggle with the LEM, no matter how much they try to convince themselves otherwise, simply aren't looking at it as a completely different trigger system. They want to force it to be "almost like" something else. I had the same problem with the 1911 and can offer sympathy. I've watched multiple people closely over days who had thousands of thousands of rounds through the LEM and when I pointed out they were trying to shoot it like a Glock usually they just told me I was seeing wrong.

2: I'd be willing to bet a PF $1 that the percentage of LEM shooters who've shown up to Rogers for their first time shooting an LEM who made Advanced is higher than the percentage of first timers who used a Glock or 1911. The fact that only one guy we know has done it is meaningless. In four weeks at Rogers over a decade I think he was the only LEM I saw.

3: Anyone who jumps from gun to gun during a shooting-intensive class is going to see weird results. I see it all the time when I teach. Working hard for two days and then switching to a less familiar gun means you're focusing differently, etc. Drawing conclusions about that is just looking for more than the limited data and inconsistent method can really tell you.

4. I'd much rather see someone choose the gun they think is best for their needs (as opposed to a single test) and work to become as good with that gun as possible rather tun throw all that decision-making and experience down the drain just to chase gear.

5. If my fear was that I had one deficiency (let's say WHO LEM) and I was about to go to a school where I'd be shooting 1k+ rounds of WHO, that seems like a great opportunity to learn. Assuming you'd rather learn to be better than compete for the Gold.

[TheTrevor]

With utmost respect and gratitude to all who have offered opinions and suggestions both here and privately, Todd perfectly describes my viewpoint on this topic after having given it careful consideration.

Related: I had a breakthrough last night regarding my challenges with WHO during a late-night dry fire session last night, but I'll post that in my training journal.

[GJM]

This is another data point. First time I went to Rogers, I only shot a P30 LEM. I wouldn't for a second claim I knew how to shoot it "properly," but I had shot it as primary for two years, and taken several classes with it. I really struggled at Rogers, especially one hand.

When I got home, I shot some known drills with the P30, a G17 and an M&P. Despite having no recent experience with either of those pistols, my performance was better with both, compared to the P30, from the first magazine fired. I picked the M&P, shot it straight until returning to Rogers six months later. With the M&P, my average score was 35 points higher on each 125 point school test, and by luck of who else was there, brought home the red pin.

After my second frustrating attempt with a P30, described earlier in this thread, I felt like I had given the P30 a real chance. I then started shooting a P226, and after two months with it, was able to shoot advanced at Rogers with the Sig. My experience may not be representative to all, and I would never claim to "really know" how to shoot a LEM, but it sure was meaningful to me. Doesn't mean the P30 LEM is a bad pistol, it just doesn't work well for me, especially one hand.

[JV_]

I really enjoyed my trip to Rogers, and would go back if money wasn't an issue. That being said, I think of Rogers as a testing school, rather than a teaching school. Don't get me wrong, I think the instructors there are knowledgeable, and certainly have the ability to teach and refine someone's skill, but the class format doesn't mesh with the way I learn/perfect a skill.

Because I view it as a week long test, I wouldn't want to go there unless I felt like I was on top of my game.

[JodyH]

More than once I've heard Rogers described as "the meat grinder".
I don't see that as good or bad, it just is what it is.