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boyscoutg36
02-26-2011, 02:51 AM
Thanks Todd for starting this forum, I've been a follower of the blog for a few years and it has been a great resource.

I tried dot torture for the first time this week, it was deceptively challenging. I hung two shots, one strong and one week hand. It was a great indicator for me of what I need to focus on in my training sessions. I also think it would be a great tool with recruits to help them identify training weaknesses and adjust their training accordingly.

In the next few weeks I'm going to try to get into the FAST drill in earnest, I've had the best success on this drill with my duty M&P9, I'm curious to see the time difference between that pistol and my G26.

ToddG
02-26-2011, 10:10 AM
Absolutely agree, boyscout, it is much more challenging than people realize until they've done it. Once you have the shooting fundamentals learned well enough, you also need to have the focus and discipline to pull off fifty shots with an error. I've failed to go 50-for-50 demonstrating in class more than once!

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/dot-torture-target.png (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture)
Dot Torture (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture)

(credit to Dave Blinder at personaldefensetraining.com (http://www.personaldefensetraining.com/) for first publishing and popularizing this drill; all I did was make a fancy looking target)

Jay Cunningham
02-26-2011, 07:21 PM
I like to use the Dot Torture as a diagnostic tool - which means this should only get shot every other week or so. I also like to use a variation which uses a shot timer on the parts where a draw is required. On the parts shot from the ready, I like to have people step back an additional two yards or so. This is all on a graduated scale, of course. Starting a n00b at 7 yards on a shot timer wouldn't be real productive. :p

willowofwisp
02-26-2011, 07:31 PM
The dot torture is one of my favorite drills/practice targets i shoot on the range, I even use it during my PPC practice...a little easier when your shooting with this..but still a challenge at 7-10 yards.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5165/5227602107_a1c4a6a81e_z.jpg

JohnN
02-27-2011, 03:33 PM
Oops...

JohnN
02-27-2011, 03:34 PM
And it gets tougher still when you have classmates watching you shoot the FAST drill and Dot Torture.

Kyle Reese
02-28-2011, 01:03 PM
As others have stated, DT looks deceptively easy, until it's actually done. I start every handgun training range session with two DT's (minimum), and if I do not get at least 46/47 the drill is repeated. Some range sessions I feel like a samurai pistolero & others I want to shake my head and ask why I bothered to come to the range. :)

It's an excellent training tool & those serious about their progress with a handgun would be remiss to not include it in their training regimen.

JV_
02-28-2011, 01:06 PM
if I do not get at least 46/47 the drill is repeated

Still doing that drill at 3 yards eh? :p

Kyle Reese
02-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Still doing that drill at 3 yards eh? :p

Funny guy you are. ;)

jar
04-11-2011, 07:20 PM
Shot a slightly modified version with my 617 at 5 yards and scored 41 and 46. I shanked a few strong hand on the second one because my finger didn't want to pull the heavy DA trigger any more. I took a break before finishing.

I modified it as follows to be more 10 shot revo friendly: 3-4 5x instead of 4, shot 8 right after 5, did 67, 67, 910 2x without the reload on 9-10. I plan to shoot it this way with the 617 for a while and then shoot it with my M&P as written.

John Hearne
04-20-2011, 12:04 PM
I've always like Dot Torture but didn't like spending 50 rounds on it. I revised it as a 30 round COF. Since you're firing less rounds, I reduced the dot size by the same amount. Have fun, it drives me crazy:
http://dvctargets.com/misc/30_rd_dot_torture.pdf

mongooseman
05-01-2011, 08:08 PM
I downloaded the Dot Torture pdf and print it on regular paper (8 1/2 x 11), is this the size everyone uses? And how many yards back can you be for the drill to be a challenge but a perfect score still be a realistic goal?

JV_
05-01-2011, 08:15 PM
print it on regular paper (8 1/2 x 11), is this the size everyone uses?That's what I use.


And how many yards back can you be for the drill to be a challenge but a perfect score still be a realistic goal?It depends on your ability. I would shoot it at 3Y, if you can clean it, go to 5 and then 7. If you're cleaning it at 7, which is a fantastic run, go to 10.

I normally shoot it at 7, I don't clean it often.

ToddG
05-02-2011, 10:26 AM
I'd recommend starting at three yards and moving back in one yard increments. While the difference between 3yd and 4yd might seem minor, you've actually increased distance by a third.

Anyone who can consistently shoot 50 on the DotTor at 3yd has very solid marksmanship fundamentals.

mongooseman
05-02-2011, 10:48 PM
"It depends on your ability. I would shoot it at 3Y, if you can clean it, go to 5 and then 7. If you're cleaning it at 7, which is a fantastic run, go to 10.

I normally shoot it at 7, I don't clean it often".


Thanks, I was getting frustrated at the 7. I guess I don't suck as much as I thought I did!

JV_
05-03-2011, 06:05 AM
Thanks, I was getting frustrated at the 7. I guess I don't suck as much as I thought I did!If I could remove the SHO/WHO portion, my scores would be much higher.

Frank B
05-03-2011, 07:32 AM
If I could remove the SHO/WHO portion, my scores would be much higher.

:D:D This is the best statement so far! :cool:

This will surely work for me, too.

Simms65
05-03-2011, 02:09 PM
I've tried this test twice now. Once with my SR9, once with my SR9c. I shot both targets at ~3yds, untimed. Aside from the SHO/WHO portions I consider what I did to be ok, nothing better. This test makes me feel like I can't shoot a friggin' pistol at all! :eek:

I scored 37 with the SR9 and 39 with the SR9c. I dropped most of my points in the SHO/WHO portion. My buddy that I shoot a lot with did it with His SR9c and his G17. He scored about the same as I did, maybe a point higher.

We both felt incredibly humbled afterwards and have since decided on a couple ways to change our training regimen, as well as cementing the idea that we need to take a class or three.

bentnbroken
05-06-2011, 12:36 PM
I have been shooting at 3 yd, have not cleaned it yet, weak hand gives me fits, I really have a hard time with the sights weak hand, I think its an eye position thing. And my first shots at time seem to hit wide then the next four group center of #1 dot.
Great drill.

willowofwisp
05-07-2011, 07:14 AM
I shot the dot target last weekend at three yards and cleaned it twice and then I shot it yesterday at about 5 yards, I ended up shooting a 46/50...I have to admit though its almost cheating with the trijicon RMR on my 19, the hardest part is still the WHO/SHO shooting portion.

KentF
05-07-2011, 02:13 PM
The first thing I shot this morning was the dot torture from 3 yards... I have a lot of work to do. :o

23 misses. Surprisingly my best was SHO (no misses) and WHO (1 miss). Dots 6 & 7 ( 9 misses) and 9 & 10 (5 misses) gave me the most problems.

Since I wasn't using any time restraint, I probably should have slowed down a little.

orionz06
05-10-2011, 12:30 AM
Shot my first 50/50 tonight at 3 yards. It was closer to 3.5-4, but 3 yards works. 100% cold, so much so that I shot it only to kill some time. I guess the guys that talk about dry fire might be on to something.

ETA: Also tried a much harder grip than usual, really helped on the WHO that would have normally been a 0/5.

Previous bests were ~44

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a183/orionz06/859a6854.jpg

ToddG
05-10-2011, 08:17 AM
Great job! I've seen some really outstanding shooters fail to make 50 at 3yd. It's a huge accomplishment.

JohnN
05-10-2011, 11:26 PM
I have used the Dot Torture drill to help me transition from a M&P to a P30. Running pretty consistent 49-50 at 3 yds and around 46-48 at 4yds.

I'm gettin' there slowly but surely.

boyscoutg36
05-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Last week I ran this during our dept.'s firearms instructor update. I ran thirty guys through on the line, they loved it. After lunch we had them all shoot it with their non-dominant hands, I was really surprised at how good most of them did. Many guys learned what they need to work on, I think we may run this with our recruit officers as well.

JDM
05-11-2011, 08:57 PM
They say it's the "Indian and not the arrow". Yeah, well sometimes, it's the arrow.


I've recently transitioned from a G19 to an M&P 9f. Basing my decision on how well I shot the M&P .357 i used to carry.

Now I never shot DT with my Glock because, well, I was terrible with the thing.


Tonight I shot this at 3 yards:
http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6cd0b7e-3e5e-33d9.jpg
48. :cool:

There is a lesson in here somewhere.

Prdator
05-12-2011, 09:33 PM
Bratch and I shot a bit tonight in preparation for the Tactical Conference in Tulsa this weekend.
We did a Dot Torture at 5yds I did a 50/50 shooting WHO for the whole thing:cool:
I had to stop during one part so Bratch could watch me shoot a bug that landed on my target stand!!.
Bratch did a 49-50!!

So maybe we'll suck less this weekend...

rsa-otc
05-14-2011, 03:41 PM
Bratch and I shot a bit tonight in preparation for the Tactical Conference in Tulsa this weekend.
We did a Dot Torture at 5yds I did a 50/50 shooting WHO for the whole thing:cool:
I had to stop during one part so Bratch could watch me shoot a bug that landed on my target stand!!.
Bratch did a 49-50!!

So maybe we'll suck less this weekend...

Great shooting WHO all the way.

Shot it twice today once at 5 yards then again at 7 yards with my 686 revolver, 160 grain LRN over 4.0 Bullseye.

5 yards 49/50
http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z417/rsa-otc/2011-05-14_10-41-39_818.jpg

Believe it or not the shot missing the lower right of DOT 2 is SHO from DOT 5

7 yards 47/50

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z417/rsa-otc/2011-05-14_11-19-29_557.jpg

SHO was my downfall today. I don't know what to attribute it to, maybe the ongoing tendinitis in my right forearm.

We'll try again another day.

JohnN
05-14-2011, 04:53 PM
Bratch and I shot a bit tonight in preparation for the Tactical Conference in Tulsa this weekend.
We did a Dot Torture at 5yds I did a 50/50 shooting WHO for the whole thing:cool:
I had to stop during one part so Bratch could watch me shoot a bug that landed on my target stand!!.
Bratch did a 49-50!!

So maybe we'll suck less this weekend...

Outstanding...


Great shooting WHO all the way.

Shot it twice today once at 5 yards then again at 7 yards with my 686 revolver, 160 grain LRN over 4.0 Bullseye.

5 yards 49/50


Believe it or not the shot missing the lower right of DOT 2 is SHO from DOT 5

7 yards 47/50



SHO was my downfall today. I don't know what to attribute it to, maybe the ongoing tendinitis in my right forearm.

We'll try again another day.

I have developed tennis elbow in my support arm and it really takes a toll on the ability to control the pistol.

jetfire
05-17-2011, 11:26 PM
Have you ever heard someone make one of those really frustrated gurgling noises? That's the noise I made when I dropped a WHO shot on Dot Torture today. I have NEVER cleaned Dot Torture at 5 yards with my Sig P250. I've done it with other guns, but never the 250. That final shot evades me, and it's maddening.

phidelta308
06-30-2011, 04:35 PM
Now that I can do dot torture from a holster at the range, I thought maybe I can incorporate it into my dry fire at home. I call it "Wall Torture."

Just like the wall drill, I stand facing a blank wall. I then proceed to dry fire through the dot torture drill, paying close attention to my front sight post. I tend to do 50-100 dry fire reps a day, and I figure, if nothing else, this will help me get more familiar with the drill.

It helps that I'm using a Beretta 92, so I don't have to rack the slide after each dry fire.

LOKNLOD
08-09-2011, 10:13 PM
Shot 50/50 at 3 yards for the first time tonight!

ToddG
08-10-2011, 07:00 AM
Shot 50/50 at 3 yards for the first time tonight!

Congrats! That's a huge achievement, dude.

Prdator
08-10-2011, 07:17 AM
Shot 50/50 at 3 yards for the first time tonight!

And I got no invite to go....... Ah Top Shot was on anyhow..

Congrats dude that P30 is working well for you!!!!

Decado
08-10-2011, 01:58 PM
This is one of my favorite drills. What is the consensus on a shot the breaks the line but is not fully in the circle. Is that considered a miss?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Decado/DSC00247.jpg

jetfire
08-10-2011, 02:19 PM
Edgers are hits; at least that's how Todd scored them at the Speed Kills class. Unrelated, on it's very first outing cold, I cleaned DT at 5 yards with the Springfield XD(M) 5.25.

JodyH
08-10-2011, 02:21 PM
50 yards huh?
Impressive.

jetfire
08-10-2011, 02:49 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about, of course. Although I did shoot a modified version of DT at 25 yards with 8 inch circles. It was fairly difficult.

ToddG
08-10-2011, 03:27 PM
8" at 25yd is half the target compared to 2" at 3yd.

fuse
08-10-2011, 03:33 PM
So basically the equivalent of regular DT at 6 yards.

sent via Android 3.1

jar
08-24-2011, 12:38 PM
Shot a slightly modified version with my 617 at 5 yards and scored 41 and 46. I shanked a few strong hand on the second one because my finger didn't want to pull the heavy DA trigger any more. I took a break before finishing.

I modified it as follows to be more 10 shot revo friendly: 3-4 5x instead of 4, shot 8 right after 5, did 67, 67, 910 2x without the reload on 9-10. I plan to shoot it this way with the 617 for a while and then shoot it with my M&P as written.

I just cleaned this with the 617 yesterday at 5y. However, I took a really long time managing the trigger. Next outing, I'm moving in to 3y and shooting at a reasonable speed.

jcarmody
09-11-2011, 07:07 PM
[New user on this forum]

I tried this drill (at seven yards) last weekend and was humbled greatly. I thought it would be rather easy, me being an IDPA Sharpshooter and all... :p I followed the advice of a blog post that recommends keeping track of your results, so I'll be able to see improvement as it happens. I also tried the F.A.S.T. Test.

My plan is to shoot this cold at every live-fire practice, which is usually once per month (with an IDPA match on another weekend), and dry several times per week. Does this sound like a useful plan?

LOKNLOD
09-11-2011, 08:08 PM
[New user on this forum]

I tried this drill (at seven yards) last weekend and was humbled greatly. I thought it would be rather easy, me being an IDPA Sharpshooter and all... :p I followed the advice of a blog post that recommends keeping track of your results, so I'll be able to see improvement as it happens. I also tried the F.A.S.T. Test.

My plan is to shoot this cold at every live-fire practice, which is usually once per month (with an IDPA match on another weekend), and dry several times per week. Does this sound like a useful plan?

Cccfgvvxxm

Edited: I had opened this post in tapatalk and then my 2-yo got my phone. Hence the gibberish. :o

What I intended to say was welcome to the forum! I tend to use Dot Torture like a checkup, to see where I stand and what I need to work on, and as sort of a "conversation starter" with myself if I show up at the range without a plan. In terms of actually building skills, there are more efficient drills to work on each of the individual things you do in the course of shooting DT, since you don't get a ton of repetition of any one thing with it. Of course if you work it into your range sessions and use it to build from, I don't think you're doing anything bad by shooting it more frequently.

Lon
09-12-2011, 02:01 PM
I took our newest Officer to the range the other day and had him shoot Dot Torture to evaluate his skill level. He goes to the academy next week and wanted some pointers before he goes. We carry DA/SA Sigs. He did great on all the SA shots, but had trouble with the DA shots so we talked about his DA pull and I gave him some drills to use use to try to improve his DA pull.

I sHot a clean score on the DT while we were there. I am really getting to appreciate DT.

Kyle Reese
09-12-2011, 02:02 PM
I took our newest Officer to the range the other day and had him shoot Dot Torture to evaluate his skill level. He goes to the academy next week and wanted some pointers before he goes. We carry DA/SA Sigs. He did great on all the SA shots, but had trouble with the DA shots so we talked about his DA pull and I gave him some drills to use use to try to improve his DA pull.

I sHot a clean score on the DT while we were there. I am really getting to appreciate DT.

DT and a FAST run are great ways to start a range session!

Al T.
09-20-2011, 09:52 AM
I like to start a range session with FAST x 3 and then before I leave run a DT to focus on marksmanship.

Hmmmmm.... Sounds like a good plan. Mind if I borrow it? :D

JS235
10-13-2011, 07:59 AM
I started to use this drill to transition from a 1911 to and M&P 9mm. Shooting a SA trigger made me have poor trigger control on my striker fired guns. I've made the switch and gone completely to the M&P.
As for the Dot Drill, this is extremely humbling! I've logged 3,500 rounds through my 9mm since late August and shot the Dot Drill approximately 30 times.
I've probably only cleaned it three time, although I have not counted shots that hit/broke the line (not sure on that part). I figured that it's an accuracy drill so the more accurate the better.
Two days ago I shot the drill clean with gloves on at 3 yrds, I was happy with that. Then yesterday I tried it twice at the 4 yrd line and dropped 9!

This drill has done wonders for my trigger control and vastly improved my walk back drills.

ToddG
10-13-2011, 09:25 AM
Hits that touch the line count.

zml342
10-13-2011, 10:29 AM
This is one of my favorite drills to run since it incorporates all the major skill sets, but I must admit I suck at it!

I have a question about how to perform this drill: how fast are you supposed to go? Are you supposed to run it at full speed? Half speed? As fast as you can and still make hits? Or so slow that a turtle can beat you?

I think one of my problems is that I go too fast causing me to lose track of my sights (especially on the transition part). Am I allowed to slow down to ensure that I am getting good hits, or are there unwritten PAR times associated with each section?

JS235
10-13-2011, 05:53 PM
Thanks Todd,

In that case i've shot it clean a few more times. 4 yards will take a lot more work!

krazykiddjoe
11-06-2011, 11:07 PM
So I finally made it to the range last Wednesday. I ran dot torture with my glock 19 w/ big dot sights. I went 46/50 dropped three at who but the group was nice. Dropped the other on pressout on dot 9.

Made it to range on sat with a borrowed HK da/sa p30. Shot it again and went 48/50. I was pissed as my who was sweet. Dropped one on dot 2 and one on dot 10. NEED TO DEF WORK ON MY PRESSOUT...

GJM
11-07-2011, 04:55 AM
While I can see doing Dot Torture annually, or a small subset of it (one or two dots), I think doing the whole drill much is counterproductive to shooting accurately at speed. With Dot, you have the ability to perfectly align your sights and make a slow, careful press of the trigger. The more your brain associates slow and perfect with an accurate shot, the harder to do it at speed, especially one hand.

gringop
11-07-2011, 04:07 PM
While I can see doing Dot Torture annually, or a small subset of it (one or two dots), I think doing the whole drill much is counterproductive to shooting accurately at speed. With Dot, you have the ability to perfectly align your sights and make a slow, careful press of the trigger. The more your brain associates slow and perfect with an accurate shot, the harder to do it at speed, especially one hand.

Can you explain your logic here? Shooting the DT more than once a year somehow causes your speed shooting skills to deteriorate????

As long as you practice both skill subsets regularly, they will both improve. Pistol skill is not a fixed sum where increasing skill in one area equates to reducing skill in another.

If I can ride my motorcycle at 2 mph with putting my feet down, it does not mean that I can't roll it into a 90 mph sweeper with equal or better skill.

Practice both, learn when to use each one and improve each day.

Gringop

GJM
11-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Can you explain your logic here? Shooting the DT more than once a year somehow causes your speed shooting skills to deteriorate????

As long as you practice both skill subsets regularly, they will both improve. Pistol skill is not a fixed sum where increasing skill in one area equates to reducing skill in another.

If I can ride my motorcycle at 2 mph with putting my feet down, it does not mean that I can't roll it into a 90 mph sweeper with equal or better skill.

Practice both, learn when to use each one and improve each day.

Gringop

I thought I did explain above why frequent DT would be counterproductive, for example, to shooting support hand only at speed. Go do Dot Torture a few days in a row, and then try to make support hand only seven yard head shots from the transition in .75, the Rogers School standard, and I think it will be clear to you.

GJM
11-08-2011, 08:25 AM
gringop, in my comments, I am assuming your goal is to Aim Fast, Hit Fast, or even Aim Fast, Hit Small, but not to become a slow fire, bullseye shooter.

if you want the more detailed explanation, Bill Rogers addresses this topic starting on page 62 of his book. For those that have been there, Bill Rogers in his Sunday night lecture, describes if your goal is to teach drivers to drive fast, why you can't teach them slow. He then goes on to relate that to teaching reactive shooting. I don't know anything about motorcycles, but I bet if your goal is to safely do 90 mph sweepers, you don't learn that, after the novice level, by spending a significant amount of your training time taking those same curves at 20 mph.

There is a reason Todd named his course AFHF and not Aim Slow, Hit Slow.

Now, if you were to break each shot on Dot Torture at the termination of a realistic speed, press out, I think it could be helpful -- but not by turning it into a slow fire, precision exercise and doing that repeatedly.

gringop
11-09-2011, 12:05 PM
We are probably more in agreement than I originally thought. If all someone does is practice bullseye, then they are gonna suck at speed shooting. I have witnessed this personally several times. Conversely, if all you practice is speed drills at 7 yards, you are gonna suck on a B-8 at 25 yards.

The key, IMHO, is to practice both in proportion. Kyle Defoor's drills and quals seem to illustrate this pretty well.

What I do not agree with is that shooting DT more than once a year will degrade your speed shooting skills. Both need to be practiced. I credit practicing DT, along with other drills, with me making Master in IDPA.

BTW, I never shoot DT as a slow fire, 3 second per shot, drill. As soon as sights are on target, press trigger. As per David Blinder's instructions.
"When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect.


Gringop

"Moderation in all things" (Publius Terentius Afer)

GJM
11-09-2011, 01:25 PM
It does sound like we are pretty close. However:

As per David Blinder's instructions.
"When you can do this clean on demand, extend the length or start timing and work on speed but maintaining accuracy. If a single shot is missed, you flunk. Only hits count and only perfect practice makes perfect."


As soon as someone says miss one shot and you flunk, my reaction is to take enough time to guarantee the shot, undermining the goal of breaking the shot at the extension of the press out. I like Todd's standard, of 90 per cent of your body hits or better, as to me that strikes a better balance of speed and accuracy.

joshs
11-09-2011, 02:39 PM
I like Todd's standard, of 90 per cent of your body hits or better, as to me that strikes a better balance of speed and accuracy.

Not to speak for Todd, but that is not his standard. 90 percent is the standard when emphasizing speed at the expense of accuracy. E.g., you are doing a drill where your goal is to increase you speed. This is exactly like doing a bulls-eye drill where you emphasize accuracy at the expense of speed.

When doing a test, the goal is still 100 percent hits in the required target area.

ToddG
11-09-2011, 02:58 PM
Dot Torture, in my opinion, is a lousy drill. It's a very good test. As such, the frequency with which you should shoot it depends on how often you believe you accuracy fundamentals need testing. Testing in and of itself doesn't lead to improvement. It can only point out what we're doing wrong and where we need to improve.

If you cannot score 50 on Dot Torture going slow, going faster is not a solution. It's a smokescreen.

The "90% hits fast" thing should only come into play on a drill after you can get 100% hits slowly. And then only if my goal is to be faster performing that particular task.

I've got no heartburn with someone who wants to shoot Dot Torture at speed. It will test something different, but it's still valid. It's not an ideal way to do so, but it can work. I just wouldn't worry about the speed until I could clean it on demand at a slow pace.

David Blinder
11-09-2011, 08:18 PM
Since I'm the infamous David Blinder, thought I'd lob a comment on this. I'm reminded of a lady who asked the golfer Ben Hogan how to make a 1 iron back up and he asked how far she hit a 1 iron. When she replied "about 150 yards", he asked "why the hell would you want it to back up?"

The moral to my story is if you can't do it clean slow and/or at short range, why the hell do think doing it fast or longer with misses is a good thing? It was designed as a test of marksmanship fundamentals and nothing more. The faster/farther you can do it clean, the better your fundamentals.

GJM
11-10-2011, 09:55 AM
Since I'm the infamous David Blinder, thought I'd lob a comment on this. I'm reminded of a lady who asked the golfer Ben Hogan how to make a 1 iron back up and he asked how far she hit a 1 iron. When she replied "about 150 yards", he asked "why the hell would you want it to back up?"

The moral to my story is if you can't do it clean slow and/or at short range, why the hell do think doing it fast or longer with misses is a good thing? It was designed as a test of marksmanship fundamentals and nothing more. The faster/farther you can do it clean, the better your fundamentals.

Certainly, if you can not do Dot Torture clean slowly, you will be unlikely to make a precise shot at speed. The point I was trying to make, though, is just because you CAN do Dot Torture clean slowly, does not mean you can make a precise shot at speed. And, if you have the ability to do it clean, for example, at three yards, turning DT into a drill, repeated frequently, will likely hinder your ability to make a precise shot at speed because you will be accustomed to having a perfect sight picture and slow, perfect trigger press. I think Todd said it right, DT is a great test and a lousy drill. As I was reading this thread, it seemed like folks were turning it into a drill, which I believe counterproductive to hitting with precision at speed.