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F-Trooper05
06-08-2011, 09:11 PM
For well over a year the only guns I've shot have been V1 P30's and V1 P2000SK's. I've literally spent thousands of dollars on both ammo and training classes trying to master the platform. Well, after reading GJM's post last week about how he shoots quicker drills with Glocks than his P30, I decided to give it a try just for the hell of it. So today I shot a Glock 19 for the first time in God knows how long, and low and behold I managed one of the fastest, cleanest FAST drills I've ever done right out of the gate (had it not been for the Glock mag release, I easily would've beaten my best time).

Obviously I don't want to switch platforms based on one good day at the range, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a little bit of a mind fuck.

Damn you, Glock.

JV_
06-08-2011, 09:13 PM
Welcome to the club.

My first time back with a Glock yielded 4 or 5 points better on a Dot Torture than my BEST P30 run.

John Ralston
06-08-2011, 09:25 PM
Damn you...cursing all of us with your Bad Joo-Joo. I am going to purposely leave the G19 home from now on.

Prdator
06-08-2011, 09:53 PM
Me and my buddy Bratch have this conversation once every few months, I'll see a P30 come up for sale and call him and then we'll talk each other out of buying a new gun as we believe we have the best ones for us! M&P for him and Glock for me.

Not saying that I could not shoot others as well but if all you really care about is the ability to "run the gun" then mastering what has proven to be your best one is a good bet.

F-Trooper05
06-08-2011, 10:12 PM
Switching platforms would suck. Just the thought of having to buy new holsters, sights, and mags is enough to make my stomach turn.

YVK
06-09-2011, 01:00 AM
I do have the same concerns, although I've not spent enough time with P30. It is funny how I've held up buying one for a long time, and once I got it, the issues I had with Glock are beginning to resolve. I may have figured my problems with long-range accuracy with Glock, and the Gadget appears to be on its way to being available.

VolGrad
06-09-2011, 05:52 AM
Switching platforms would suck. Just the thought of having to buy new holsters, sights, and mags is enough to make my stomach turn.

BUT the bright side is the ready availability and cheaper prices on all those things for a GLOCK vs buying for an H&K.

Mags alone are nuts. $60 for two P30 mags IF you get a deal on shipping vs the same $60 for three GLOCK mags.

Every holster and sight makers services GLOCK, not the same for H&K.

The used market for GLOCK accessories is endless. I troll the boards all the time and pick up random crap I don't need.

I've tried switching away from GLOCK for more glam toys over the past couple of years but ALWAYS come back. Why fight it? I'm all in.

JV_
06-09-2011, 05:54 AM
Mags alone are nuts. $60 for two P30 mags IF you get a deal on shipping vs the same $60 for three GLOCK mags.P30 mags can be had at good rates, you just have to keep looking. For instance, a good deal will pop up in the FS section today .... (7) P30 mags :cool:

Chuck Haggard
06-09-2011, 07:29 AM
Damn you...cursing all of us with your Bad Joo-Joo. I am going to purposely leave the G19 home from now on.

I'll buy it from you, that way you aren't tempted to shoot it.

I'll give you ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS (Dr. Evil voice)!!!!!

gtmtnbiker98
06-09-2011, 09:45 AM
All of this talk stemming from one experience and you are willing to sell the farm? You can't always chase the next "best thing" or you'll always be chasing it. Take a deep breath.

@VolGrad:

If you are paying $60 for an HK P30 magazine, then you are being gang raped. P30 mags can be had for as little as $31.00 in my area. The only mags reaching the price point you mention are HK45 and P7 magazines.

SecondsCount
06-09-2011, 10:13 AM
BUT the bright side is the ready availability and cheaper prices on all those things for a GLOCK vs buying for an H&K.

Mags alone are nuts. $60 for two P30 mags IF you get a deal on shipping vs the same $60 for three GLOCK mags.

Every holster and sight makers services GLOCK, not the same for H&K.

The used market for GLOCK accessories is endless. I troll the boards all the time and pick up random crap I don't need.

I've tried switching away from GLOCK for more glam toys over the past couple of years but ALWAYS come back. Why fight it? I'm all in.

Glam toys? I wouldn't necessarily consider anything that costs more than a Glock a fad or a fashion statement, especially at this time when Glock quality has come into question.

In the scheme of things, a couple hundred dollar difference between platforms is not substantial considering the total investment with ammo and training.



All of this talk stemming from one experience and you are willing to sell the farm? You can't always chase the next "best thing" or you'll always be chasing it. Take a deep breath.


Excellent point.

F-Trooper05
06-09-2011, 12:56 PM
All of this talk stemming from one experience and you are willing to sell the farm? You can't always chase the next "best thing" or you'll always be chasing it. Take a deep breath.

Don't worry, my farm isn't going anywhere.

TCinVA
06-09-2011, 01:51 PM
Frequently when you pick up a "new" gun or one that you haven't practiced seriously with you'll find that you improve your performance somewhat...especially if the weapon you're picking up has a lighter/better trigger.

...but don't assume that boost is permanent.

JHC
06-09-2011, 01:54 PM
This might be an interesting examination of what the popular term "ergonomics" really means for pistols.

Does it mean feels good to the user like the grips of M&Ps and P30s?

If someone devotes this much ammunition and training to the gun which is commonly described as far more ergonomic, then the less ergonomic gun comes out and smokes the FAST; something is not adding up.

I think it is popular definition of the concept of ergonomics that's amiss. Working with the human user to accomplish the task - better or worse ought to be close to a sound definition. The OP is not the first shooter on this forum to observe this phenom.

Occam's Razor
06-09-2011, 02:01 PM
The M&P feels great in my smaller hands, but I shoot it like crap compared to my Glocks. I don't find it unusual to shoot something better when it's new to you, conscious application of skills is often more pronounced when you pick up a new firearm I think. I love HK, want to try a new Walther PPQ, but doubt seriously I'll move away from my Glocks. There's a reason Baskin-Robbins has 31 flavors.

ToddG
06-09-2011, 02:53 PM
Ergonomics means more than just "what works best for one person." The adaptability of the P30, things like ambi controls and 27 different grip configurations out of the box not to mention a multitude of actions and trigger pull weights mean a lot more in terms of ergonomics than "how fast one guy can shoot a Bill Drill."

As TC points out, there are a lot of factors that can go into New Awesome Gun Syndrome™. Not all of them necessarily provide valid data for comparison.

There are things I did better with my P30 two years ago than I can do now with my G17 even after a year and a half more practice and almost 20k through the Glock. In particular, my personal best FAST comes immediately to mind.

That wouldn't necessarily cause me to jump back to the P30, though. The performance differences are slight. My choice between the two would be based on more than just which one turned in the best score on a certain drill on a certain day... or even which one consistently turned in the best score on a certain drill day after day. Reliability, durability, safety, accessory availability, all of these factor into it. E.g., when someone compares his results shooting a 4# Glock trigger out of a G34 to a 6.5# LEM trigger out of a P30, we're not talking apples to apples.

For every person I've met who didn't acclimate to the P30, I've met at least one who did. Most of them came from M&Ps or Glocks. Different guns work differently for different people.

Ultimately, I believe the Glock is probably a little more shootable, especially for most folks. My personal experience is probably skewed by years of shooting DA/SA guns and a preference for longer, heavier trigger pulls than most people want to deal with. At the same time, I have more faith in the HK's reliability and durability. That is based on personal experience and the issues I've witnessed while dealing with large LE agencies for more than a decade.

If you shoot a Glock much better than a P30, or vice versa, so be it. Neither is a bad choice. But before you jump ship to the other one, be sure that the time, money, and effort is worth it... and wouldn't simply be better spent improving your ability with the one you've already got.

ranburr
06-09-2011, 03:11 PM
IMO, Glock outshines the P30 in every category except the grip.

F-Trooper05
06-09-2011, 03:18 PM
But before you jump ship to the other one, be sure that the time, money, and effort is worth it... and wouldn't simply be better spent improving your ability with the one you've already got.

That's the key right there^^

Honestly, I don't think that the benefit of shooting a better FAST with a Glock is worth the cost of having to switch platforms and restart all of my training from scratch. Nevertheless, it can still be discouraging (especially for someone who rocks a blood splattered HK logo in his avatar).

JV_
06-09-2011, 03:20 PM
IMO, Glock outshines the P30 in every category except the grip.I have a much stronger preference for the HK paddle mag release.

The P30 also offered a more comfortable feeling when AIWB'ing, specifically the feeling of not having a partially cocked striker.

John Ralston
06-09-2011, 04:44 PM
IMO, Glock outshines the P30 in every category except the grip.

The grip size, shape AND angle don't work well for me - a HUGE minus. I like the trigger break on the V4 LEM P30 better than my stock (but polished) G19, but that wouldn't drive me one way or the other. Fewer parts in the G19 is a plus, but the durability of the HK makes that almost a moot point.

For me, the Glock might have a little bit of luster, but it doesn't shine. I really like the P30 and shoot it well enough (I ran a 5.03 FAST, and ran it quite well at the Redback One class I attended) that I don't feel at all hindered by it. Even the extra $10 per mag over the Glock doesn't make much difference to me. I also got the P30 for a net investement of $0 by selling off some leather and a G34 that didn't fit my hands any better than the G19.

I will have to take the G19 out for some drills and FAST this weekend while my P30 is off getting some Heinie's installed.

JHC
06-09-2011, 05:02 PM
That's the key right there^^

Honestly, I don't think that the benefit of shooting a better FAST with a Glock is worth the cost of having to switch platforms and restart all of my training from scratch. Nevertheless, it can still be discouraging (especially for someone who rocks a blood splattered HK logo in his avatar).

I agree completely.

But Todd, your point: "Ergonomics means more than just "what works best for one person." The adaptability of the P30, things like ambi controls and 27 different grip configurations out of the box not to mention a multitude of actions and trigger pull weights mean a lot more in terms of ergonomics than "how fast one guy can shoot a Bill Drill."

True ambi might be ergo for a lefty for example, but much of the other might suit a persons preferences or department policy - but until that translates to faster and more accurate shooting or reloading . . . I dunno if it qualifies as an ergonomic feature. {edit to acknowledge safety being KEY ergonomic feature}

And pure ergonomic advantages in shooting and reloading do not necessarily a better carry gun make. Perhaps targets and timers will show the CZ Shadow superior than all comers. Daily CCW does not that make. I get that.

My opinion is that upwards of 80% of the applications of "ergonomic" this or that about pistols is off the mark.

JHC
06-09-2011, 05:04 PM
I have a much stronger preference for the HK paddle mag release.

.

With only 50 rounds through a rental P30 - I'd take that paddle hands down too.

STS
06-09-2011, 06:37 PM
I made the mistake of shooting my old 1911's after retiring them almost 2 years ago for Glock 9mms. I should have never got the 1911's out of the safe, as I was quickly reminded about all the things I do like about the 1911 - trigger, ergonomics, heft, feel, slimness, etc. I had to come home and hide them in the back of my safe and vow not to touch them again....

GJM
06-10-2011, 12:39 AM
I feel some responsibility for possibly putting this bad thought into his head. :)

As a data point, I have continued to shoot timed drills with my P30, a Glock 17, and an M&P9 for the last month, and my results today are the same as when I first did this after getting home from the Rogers School. Using a FAST drill from open carry with the three different 9's, I shoot the M&P best, followed by the Glock, and the HK the slowest. The time difference is significant -- 4.3-4.4 with the M&P, 4.7-4.8 with the Glock, and 5.2-5.3 with the HK, and times with an M&P mid-size .45 substantially faster than the G17 or HK. Forgetting the raw times, the difference is pretty significant. Additionally, my one hand shooting is substantially better with the Glock and M&P. Comparing the M&P and Glock, my reload and splits are better with the M&P.

I have come to believe that what feels best in my hand may not translate into the fastest times -- examples being how the P30 feels better in my hand than any other pistol, and how thin grips on a 1911 feel better but give me slower splits than regular grips.

As pointed out above, there may be good reasons to carry the HK anyway, but if I do, I want to do it with the understanding of the compromises I am making.

JHC
06-10-2011, 07:28 AM
I made the mistake of shooting my old 1911's after retiring them almost 2 years ago for Glock 9mms. I should have never got the 1911's out of the safe, as I was quickly reminded about all the things I do like about the 1911 - trigger, ergonomics, heft, feel, slimness, etc. I had to come home and hide them in the back of my safe and vow not to touch them again....

What finally allowed me to "cut the cord" with the 1911 after a committed relationship in the '80's and on and off since that decade was a couple years ago when I could not deliver better performance with my TRP than my Glocks. That and all the busy reloading during local matches and I was done with them all.

ToddG
06-10-2011, 08:25 AM
I have come to believe that what feels best in my hand may not translate into the fastest times -- examples being how the P30 feels better in my hand than any other pistol, and how thin grips on a 1911 feel better but give me slower splits than regular grips.

This raises the question of what grips you have on the P30. Are you using the grip combination that feels the best, or the combination that has you shooting the best?

GJM
06-10-2011, 09:24 AM
I started off with small, because they felt "good," then went to a small right, medium back and large left to help keep my thumb off the slide stop, and recently went to a medium back, and large right and left. The trick, of course, is properly measuring the effect of each change.

I wanted to try a large back, but when I install the large back, magazines won't drop freely out of my primary P30, although they do out of P30 .40. I tried several large back pieces with the same result, and have meant to call Travis or Sam. Any ideas?

On the M&P, I started out with the medium on the 9 and small on the 45, but have switched to large on the 9 and medium on the 45. I have fairly large hands, and within reason larger grips generally offer me more control.

JohnN
06-10-2011, 10:44 AM
I started off with small, because they felt "good," then went to a small right, medium back and large left to help keep my thumb off the slide stop, and recently went to a medium back, and large right and left. The trick, of course, is properly measuring the effect of each change.

I wanted to try a large back, but when I install the large back, magazines won't drop freely out of my primary P30, although they do out of P30 .40. I tried several large back pieces with the same result, and have meant to call Travis or Sam. Any ideas?

On the M&P, I started out with the medium on the 9 and small on the 45, but have switched to large on the 9 and medium on the 45. I have fairly large hands, and within reason larger grips generally offer me more control.

I had the same issue with several of my mags but after shooting approx. 500 rds with the large rear panel installed, suddenly all the mags drop freely. Can't tell you why or how but now they're working properly.

JohnN
06-10-2011, 10:47 AM
IMO, Glock outshines the P30 in every category except the grip.

Do you have any direct experience with the P30?

GJM
06-10-2011, 01:02 PM
I had the same issue with several of my mags but after shooting approx. 500 rds with the large rear panel installed, suddenly all the mags drop freely. Can't tell you why or how but now they're working properly.

Thanks for that tip, I will try it. Others had the same problem?

George

ranburr
06-10-2011, 06:39 PM
Do you have any direct experience with the P30?

Yes.

F-Trooper05
06-11-2011, 12:07 AM
Thanks for that tip, I will try it. Others had the same problem?

George

I have all large grips on both of my P30's and half my mags fall freely and the other half don't. It sucks.

Nik the Greek
06-17-2011, 12:39 PM
F-Troop,

My question after having read the thread is whether you find that the P30 performs better for you than the Glock in any other tasks?

JohnN
07-09-2011, 07:14 PM
After contacting Todd and asking for tips on adapting to the P30 LEM one of his comments was don't try manipulating the trigger like a Glock or M&P. A good press out is essential along with getting on the trigger as soon as your sights are aligned. Pressure must be applied equally throughout the trigger stroke until you are ready to break the shot. It's very easy to take up the slack quickly and then mash the trigger at the end of the stroke. Doesn't show up badly shooting two handed and up close but is very noticeable when shooting WHO/SHO. My performance is starting to pick up after incorporating Todd's advice and hopefully will be able to turn in a better performance in Septembers' class than last Octobers'.

I would be curious how many of you guys have moved away from the P30 to another platform?