How does this not effect all students??

[BaiHu]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/01/08/Govt-offers-new-approach-to-classroom-discipline


Civil rights advocates have long said that a "school-to-prison" pipeline stems from overly zealous school discipline policies targeting black and Hispanic students that bring them out of school and into the court system.

Attorney General Eric Holder said the problem often stems from well intentioned "zero-tolerance" policies that too often inject the criminal justice system into the resolution of problems. Zero tolerance policies, a tool that became popular in the 1990s, often spell out uniform and swift punishment for offenses such as truancy, smoking or carrying a weapon. Violators can lose classroom time or become saddled with a criminal record.

I've long contended that the zero tolerance policy is unnatural, specifically for boys. Boys do not emote and articulate their thoughts and feelings as a way to 'settle' their issues-especially early on in life. That being said, why does this new kingly decree have to have a racial component to it? Maybe a kid brings a weapon to school b/c he doesn't want to be in a gang...so, maybe we need to be more harsh on the violent crime and/or just stop the drug war, legalize/tax coke/pot and watch much of this wash down the drain.

[TCinVA]

Zero tolerance often equates to zero intelligence in the application of discipline.

Nevertheless, when you go to schools that suck the students aren't ending up as criminals because the school is too strict in the way it administers discipline.

[BaiHu]

Agreed.

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[Josh Runkle]

I'm pretty sure that kids understand by the age of 6 that they can't bring a loaded gun to school. I take issue with kids getting expelled over bright green squirt guns. A kid that brings a loaded gun to school doesn't deserve a second chance.

[BaiHu]

Agreed. But again how did this not effect all students?

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[Chuck Whitlock]

Not that I am a fan of the Dept. of Education, but since when does the DOJ set out guidelines for school discipline?

Call me jaded, but I smell some kind of race-baiting slight-of-hand being spooled up.

[BaiHu]

My concern and question as well and why I called it a "kingly decree".

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[Chuck Whitlock]

I'm thinking that Rev. Al has squeezed all the juice he can out of the TM/GZ incidence, and feels the need to be relevant again.
But I already mentioned being jaded.

[ford.304]

I'm pretty sure that kids understand by the age of 6 that they can't bring a loaded gun to school. I take issue with kids getting expelled over bright green squirt guns. A kid that brings a loaded gun to school doesn't deserve a second chance.

What about the kid who left his hunting rifle in his truck? What if he forgot to completely unload the mags, and therefore by sitting on the seat next to the rifle it was considered loaded?

The problem with zero tolerance isn't that some people don't need to be kicked out of school, it's that it removes the ability to see the difference between a dumb mistake and a plan to blow a gang rival's brains out on the way home.

[Josh Runkle]

What about the kid who left his hunting rifle in his truck? What if he forgot to completely unload the mags, and therefore by sitting on the seat next to the rifle it was considered loaded?

The problem with zero tolerance isn't that some people don't need to be kicked out of school, it's that it removes the ability to see the difference between a dumb mistake and a plan to blow a gang rival's brains out on the way home.

If you make a dumb mistake with a loaded gun and accidentally shoot and kill someone you love, despite intentions, you might still be convicted of manslaughter. If I decide to go to the airport and have a dumb mistake with a CCW in my carry on, I deserve to be punished. Why? Because with guns come responsibilities.

Was the hunter charged with terrorist threats or aggravated assault, or was he just expelled and charged with having a weapon in a school zone?

ETA: I don't believe in zero tolerance in the case of things like water guns or airsoft, because even a 5 year old understands that it's not a real gun. I absolutely believe that the hunter should be expelled. With guns come responsibilities.

[Nephrology]

Speaking of schooling... the verb is "affect." The noun is "effect." ;)

[BaiHu]

Speaking of schooling... the verb is "affect." The noun is "effect." ;)

Thanks bro, I wrestled with that for all of a heartbeat and then figured you'd all understand and/or correct me. Luckily, I got both.

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[TCinVA]

Not that I am a fan of the Dept. of Education, but since when does the DOJ set out guidelines for school discipline?

Call me jaded, but I smell some kind of race-baiting slight-of-hand being spooled up.

It's an old canard that's gone on for years.

"Black and latino students are disciplined more often and more severely than white students according to the statistics!!!"

Yeah. When you compare a school in inner city Detroit with a suburban school where the kids come from mostly intact families with involved parents you're going to see more instances of discipline and more severe types of discipline. No damn kidding. It's got precisely bupkiss to do with racism.

This is more of the typical Obama method of government. A bunch of ridiculous thoughts vomited into the ether without any attempt at examining actual fact. Teachers in warzone schools are not calling the cops because Johnny didn't bring his homework. They're calling the cops in Chicago inner city schools because Johnny brought a gun or a knife or a blunt object and is using it on other kids or threatening to use it on them. The school isn't smurfing confusing a criminal and school discipline matter, the school is trying to deal with a 15 year old sociopath with a 3rd grader's reading comprehension. His mother is a 4th or 5th generation dependent on government assistance, his father is nowhere to be found, his social structure is comprised entirely of people that are hopelessly smurfed up, and all of his peers have been raised by the law of the jungle just like him. The teacher stuck in the classroom with that kid isn't confused about what's a law enforcement matter versus what's a school discipline matter. They're calling the cops because when he breaks the classroom rules it's not by throwing spitballs.

That's why he ends up in prison. It's not because the school is overzealous in its application of discipline.

The places where the schools are overzealous are largely the places where they have the luxury of doing so because they're not dealing with scores of 15 year old sociopaths. The cops are more likely to get involved in "discipline" problems with minority students because a higher percentage of the "discipline" issues involving minority students are criminal in nature. Assault, aggravated assault, sexual assault, breaking and entering, destruction of property, narcotics dealing, rape....that sort of thing.

The idea that the reason so many minority kids end up in jail is because the schools are hopelessly confused about the problems and are calling the cops in an unreasonable panic is as valid as Obama's complaint about docs looking to amputate limbs because they make more money that way. It's the typical liberal pabulum. They don't even bother to acquaint themselves with the most basic facts about what they're discussing before proposing policies and best practices. As I said elsewhere, it's people who don't have the necessary skills to run a Burger King telling us about the ills of society and how to fix them.

It's all bullsmurf of the first smurfing order.

[BaiHu]

Yeah. When you compare a school in inner city Detroit with a suburban school where the kids come from mostly intact families with involved parents you're going to see more instances of discipline and more severe types of discipline. No damn kidding. It's got precisely bupkiss to do with racism.

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That's why he ends up in prison. It's not because the school is overzealous in its application of discipline.

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The idea that the reason so many minority kids end up in jail is because the schools are hopelessly confused about the problems and are calling the cops in an unreasonable panic is as valid as Obama's complaint about docs looking to amputate limbs because they make more money that way. It's the typical liberal pabulum. They don't even bother to acquaint themselves with the most basic facts about what they're discussing before proposing policies and best practices. As I said elsewhere, it's people who don't have the necessary skills to run a Burger King telling us about the ills of society and how to fix them.

It's all bullsmurf of the first smurfing order.

Endeth the thread.

[ToddG]

Speaking of schooling... the verb is "affect." The noun is "effect." ;)

Effect can be a verb ("to effect the King's will") and affect can be a noun ("he displayed no affect when shown pictures of dead kittens").

[RoyGBiv]

Effect can be a verb ("to effect the King's will") and affect can be a noun ("he displayed no affect when shown pictures of dead kittens").

Correctamente

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affect
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effect

[David Armstrong]

Agreed. But again how did this not effect all students?

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Why would you think it did not apply to all students? They focused on the problem with minorities but I didn't see anything that restricted it to only some students. That a program diproportionately effects minorities does not mean it excludes non-minorities.

[BaiHu]

Why would you think it did not effect all students? They focused on the problem with minorities but I didn't see anything that restricted it to only some students. Thta a program diproportionately effects minorities does not mean it excludes non-minorities.

That's my point. They are making this about race, but it's really about maintaining discipline in failing schools. As Sotex said:


Not that I am a fan of the Dept. of Education, but since when does the DOJ set out guidelines for school discipline?

Call me jaded, but I smell some kind of race-baiting slight-of-hand being spooled up.

[Nephrology]

Effect can be a verb ("to effect the King's will") and affect can be a noun ("he displayed no affect when shown pictures of dead kittens").

Yes, true, but such definitions are a bit out of context.

[ToddG]

Yes, true, but such definitions are a bit out of context.

I missed the part where you said "in this context" I guess. :cool:

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[Nephrology]

I missed the part where you said "in this context" I guess. :cool:

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Touché, Mr. Todd G. Touché :D

[David Armstrong]

That's my point. They are making this about race, but it's really about maintaining discipline in failing schools. As Sotex said:
I guess if you look for race in everything you can find race in everything.:confused: They point out accurately that the problem disproportionally a\effects certain minorities but they don't try to argue it is only a minority issue. It seems they are arguing it DOES effect all students according to Holder and the government. If the policy was only used against minorities then we might have an issue about it not effecting all students, but apparently that is not the case.

[Fly320s]

ETA: I don't believe in zero tolerance in the case of things like water guns or airsoft, because even a 5 year old understands that it's not a real gun. I absolutely believe that the hunter should be expelled. With guns come responsibilities.

And I don't believe in malum prohibitum laws. Having an inanimate object in a car causes harm to no one.