What do you guys think of this Mike Lamb 'fighting shotgun' video??

[BaiHu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXjSwAR5l2k&feature=em-subs_digest

I've heard a lot about the shotgun vs AR argument for HD and I just can't wrap my head around the use of a shotgun for HD, but then again, I don't even own one-mainly b/c I'm anti Joe Biden. Well, that and it even seems like Lamb and his guys on this video have an issue cycling through rounds quickly (after 2 rounds and it seems like they have issues). Is that b/c I don't know what I'm seeing/talking about? What if there are multiple attackers? Even Lamb mentions the 'psychological' aspect as not being something he trains people on, b/c it's setting them up for failure.

So....fill me in folks.

[Nephrology]

The whole 0-150 yards thing seems incredibly generous to me.

Within 10 yards or less, I definitely want a handgun or a SBR/Subgun . Maneuverability and the ability to avoid takeaways is paramount in such close quarters.

75 yards or more I want a carbine. They cycle faster, recoil less, and simply put their ammo is more consistent (i.e. less drop). Additionally, if you are pressing a shotgun into service at 75yd, it seems like you have to have a tube full of slugs ready to go. Transitioning to slugs is a lot more complex than simply putting .223 on the same target, whether it be 25 or 150 yards.

Buckshot is definitely devastating, but I think that the shotgun is only as versatile as the way it is set up. I don't want a tube full of slugs if I am defending my home, and I don't want a tube full of buck if I am facing threats at 150yd. I certainly don't want to have to rapidly switch between the two as the situation dictates. .223 carbines are far more versatile and offer you immediate flexibility between 10 and 200 yards.

Finally, let's not forget capacity. 7 rounds goes really quickly, and reloading a tube fed gun is just not as fast as swapping mags on an AR or an AK. I think he really oversells it. The shotgun has some uses but these days they are definitely eclipsed by the carbine, from my amateur perspective. I own an 870 set up for HD - it's nice to have, especially as I don't own a carbine, but I certainly have no illusions about its strengths and its weaknesses.

[David Armstrong]

Well, first I'll admit I prefer the shotgun over the AR for home defense. Having said that I would disagree with Mike about it being the choice out to 150 yards. I can use it at that distance but it would not be my first choice. I don't know how quickly you want to cycle the gun, but fast repeat follow-up shots aren't difficult once you learn how to run the gun. Multiple attackers shouldn't be a problem either. At a good shotgun class you'll see multiple target engagement taught and it is not difficult to engage targets and keep the gun running. Regarding psychological stops, note that he says he doesn't teach it BUT that he has also seen it happen often enough that he presents the idea as a plus for the shotgun.

[TR675]

I think a well-thought out and equipped shotgun has a lot to recommend it in the HD environment.

Not least among its potential advantages are very real biases that much of society has against "assault rifles". Research by Glenn Meyer at Trinity University supports this position: people are more likely to judge self-defenders negatively when they use unpopular weapons. I have to laugh at people who repeat, ad nauseum, that a "good shoot" is a "good shoot" and that their use of a tricked-out suppressor-equipped SBR will have no impact on how their case is handled or viewed by a trier of fact. While the type of weapon used in a self-defense shooting should not make a difference in a black and white case, very often self-defense cases are not black and white. I personally know of two cases where self-defense was an issue here in Texas where the prosecution cited the defendant's use of an assault rifle as evidence of bad intent.

For me personally, by virtue of my home's construction I am not worried about excess penetration through walls, , the longest shot I will ever have to take is maybe 20 yards, there is essentially one entry to the residence and path through it, I have multiple "funnels" that allow me to effectively barricade myself and my special lady friend in a number of places, and there is very little reason for me to go outside if I'm worried about bad guys. Given these circumstances, I feel quite comfortable with a shotgun backed up with a handgun for HD.

Anything outside of the house is a different story, but if I think there's trouble brewing I'm not going out there.

[BaiHu]

Did you guys see the video?? Some parts, to me, look almost like trigger freeze (or cycling slower then they can pull the trigger) and the cut/edit to the next frame. I'm willing to admit I don't know what I'm looking at, but it seemed to happen at least 3 times from my recollection.

Other than that, I guess it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Protect yourself with what you have, no?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Last year I did a shotgun 1 day class in January. In May I used a shotgun in a FOF "kill house".

Doing drills I was find, in the FOF situation in which I was trying to keep from getting shot, ambushed or otherwise screwed, I ended up abandoning the shotgun and using my pistol because I kept forgetting to rack the gun.

If you want a shotgun for home defense, I think it better be semi-auto.

[BaiHu]

If you want a shotgun for home defense, I think it better be semi-auto.

An odd omission that I was surprised he didn't bring up. If I had to have a shotty, then I'd go semi-auto as well.

[Tom Givens]

The advantage of the buckshot loaded shotgun at home defense distances is decisive power. I have looked at a lot of shootings over the years. Once in a great while I find one where a second load of buckshot was needed on target. I have never found one where more than 2 rounds were needed on one BG.

The capacity of the AR is an illusion. For CQB purposes, most trainers recommend a 4-7 round string per target engagement. A 30 round magazine is best loaded with 28, for reliability and insertion with a closed bolt. There are 4 7 round strings in a 28 round magazine. So, at house ranges the AR is a 4 serving weapon. My shotgun holds 6 servings.

At its maximum ordinate, 00 buck will only travel 800-900 yards, where a .223 bullet will travel 2,850 yards. So, buck only has 1/3 the downrange danger zone of carbine ammo, which might be important in an urban setting. Also, TR is correct on the “perception” problem of the AR, which should not be a problem, but just might be.

Finally, it’s really hard to imagine why a home defender would need 150 yard capability. Military application and civil home defense are not the same things. “Cool” factor should not be a determining factor in weapon selection.

[jetfire]

One big reason for the AR over the shotgun is reduced danger of interior wall over-penetration.

That being said, a 1300 sleeps next to me, not a rifle.

[45dotACP]

Personally, having a lot more experience shooting a shotgun in trap, skeet and other assorted games, I'd feel more comfortable using one than I would using an AR. That said, I'd choose a semi auto or probably even a double barrel shotgun sooner than a pump (because I don't shoot pumps enough to cycle every time). If you don't own a shotgun, I'd recommend getting one. They are a serious amount of fun for the games you play with them and skeet is one of my favorite shooting sports.

[BaiHu]

Tom,

That was awesome and exactly what I needed to hear. That really clarifies things to me logically. My only question left is can anyone clarify the 'pump', cycling, trigger freeze issue I 'think' I see in the video?

Thanks!

[jetfire]

Tom,

That was awesome and exactly what I needed to hear. That really clarifies things to me logically. My only question left is can anyone clarify the 'pump', cycling, trigger freeze issue I 'think' I see in the video?

Thanks!

It's hard to say specifically, but it LOOKS like they'd been running a lot of two shot drills, so when they suddenly had to go cyclic they ended up with trigger freeze. Although the gun I saw it the most on was the KSG, which has a stupid trigger linkage that sometimes goes dead for no apparent reason anyway.

[TR675]

My only question left is can anyone clarify the 'pump', cycling, trigger freeze issue I 'think' I see in the video?

By absolutely no means am I an expert, but it might come down to "pump guns are hard." I'm learning how to use one mo' better and, coming from a predominantly handgun and AR background - it's a big transition.

Kind of like going from skiing to snowboarding. One run you're heading down the mountain forwards, poles in hand, and life makes sense. The next you're going sideways, feet strapped to a board, no poles, freaking out, and then maybe backward, all while trying to figure out a pump action and tiny cross-bolt safety in the wrong freaking place and that stupid slide release lever and also reloading is kind of a pain in the ass...

Ok, so my metaphor is getting away from me, but I'd be willing to bet that the video shows a bunch of guys with AR/Glock experience getting used to operating a way-different system.

[BaiHu]

Lol! Nice TR!

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Kind of like going from skiing to snowboarding. One run you're heading down the mountain forwards, poles in hand, and life makes sense. The next you're going sideways, feet strapped to a board, no poles, freaking out, and then maybe backward, all while trying to figure out a pump action and tiny cross-bolt safety in the wrong freaking place and that stupid slide release lever and also reloading is kind of a pain in the ass...



So you DID see my May 2013 experience with a shotgun.

Decision making while running a pump shotty is an issue that requires training to address, even more so than for semi-auto with a semi-auto pistol or rifle.

With a semiauto, you just run the gun, and when it runs out of bullets, stick a package of them back in. With a pump, you have to do something after each shot, and when you go dry, stick shells in one at a time.

All while listening, watching, in awkward positions and hoping you don't get distracted then ambushed.

[Tom Givens]

I think the difficulty of running a pump gun is highly exaggerated. I teach a one day defensive shotgun course. At the end of that one day students run the gun well and keep it loaded. Just like in pistol shooting, a bit of well thought out technique, practiced consistently, leads to skill. In our one day class we shoot 125 rounds of birdshot, 50 rds of buckshot and 10-15 slugs. That is enough to learn the basic manipulation of the gun.

[SecondsCount]

The 150 yard shot on a man sized target is pretty easy to make with a shotgun loaded with slugs.

I have a love hate relationship with shotguns. If all I could own were one gun it would be probably be a shotgun, they are the most versatile firearm that you can own but downsides are the size (hard to conceal) and recoil.

[TR675]

For me the difficulty hasn't been running the pump action (barring mechanical/ammo failures). My problem is getting used to a set of controls that is different from what I'm used to and taking a lackadaisical approach to learning how to use them.

This isn't helped by the fact that I've got three pump guns that all have basically similar controls but in different places. Talk about a monkey smurfing a football...

[Suvorov]

Psychological intimidation works both ways, in fact it probably works the opposite way a lot better than the positive way. By that I mean that there are a lot of folks out there who are not gun folk and are simply intimated as heck by a 12GA and because of this, it is simply not a viable home defense weapon. I have yet to see a person that with a little bit of time can not become reasonably comfortable delivering .223 pills at typical home defense ranges, and a lot them them get pretty good at it. In these cases I think a .223 carbine or even a pistol carbine is going to serve a person better.

I'll also agree with others who question the 150 yard range with the shotgun. While I'm sure there are shotguns out there that could drop a coyote with a slug at 150 yards, I seriously doubt mine or your standard 18" shotgun could, while just about any AR or Mini14 could do it with ease.

The shotgun is an integral part of my HD plan, but largely because of the Kalifornia specific issues with ARs, and I have ZERO illusions that my wife would be able to wield it effectively if need be.

[Chuck Whitlock]

For those who doubt the range thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNTyCcip-ks

The lesson is "know thy equipment".

[jlw]

I'm unabashedly pro-shotgun. I don't take the same 150 yard approach as does the guy in the video as a blanket approach though as I think that is dependent upon the individual shotgun setup. I have an 870P that has the bead/pedestal sight. It is a great buckshot gun, but slugs start getting iffy at around 50 yards, and I have to play the windage game. My issued 870 has ghost ring sights, and slugs with it as easy at 50 yards as shots with an AR. I've not tried further.

I do wish they selected more proficient practitioners for the video. There was some no-so-good scattergunning going on in there.

As for pump versus semi-auto in a shotgun, the first gun I ever shot was a pump shotgun at the ripe age of six. It's just what feels right to me. I've had a semi-auto shotgun and would be open to give another a try, but I prefer a pump.

[Surf]

So....fill me in folks.Shot competition and hunted with them as a kid and used it professionally as an adult for nearly the last 25 years. I teach a closed shotgun course on a regular basis. Run an 870 pretty damn near as quick as I can run an auto loader. So while I am a big proponent of the shotgun I generally opt for my M4 over the shotgun in most situations. It is nice to have a guy or two on the teams sporting one as they can put down a lot of lead quickly and offer the impressive punch that a 1 oz slug can deliver. There is no denying the lethality /efficacy that a shotgun brings to the table. I don't take issue in general with the information discussed in the video, but with all due respect to those connected to the video as they are great individuals no doubt, the video was difficult to watch.

[ToddG]

So you DID see my May 2013 experience with a shotgun.

Yes. And your comment that it came after one day's worth of training (and no comment on how much or whether you'd practiced with it at all in the meantime). If you're having to think about racking a round into the chamber after a shot then you're not doing it right.

Lack of proper training on your part does not equate to inadequacies on the gun's part.

[JAD]

I particularly like Tom's comment about how comparable the capacities of an AR and shotgun can be.

I am a danger to myself and others when operating a mechanical device, but with a little training I'm very comfortable keeping a shotgun running, even if it is manually operated. With the Haught technique recoil management is straightforward, and I have confidence in its terminal effect.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I am more proficient with an AR carbine, and a handgun than I am with a shotgun. I can operate the controls faster, I can achieve better hits on target with it, I can perform manipulations faster (IE: reloading/malf clearance.), 5.56mm ammo has less risk of overpenetration.

This is why I choose an AR carbine over both a pistol, or a shotgun.

I do not believe shotguns to be at a significant mechanical disadvantage in an HD scenario. (Semi-auto.)

I say this after getting better acquainted with shotguns over the past year, and may even buy my own. Likely a SAIGA if possible.

[Dagga Boy]

I have hunted a ton of very bad humans with shotguns. It is my preferred indoor weapon system. It is what is next to my bed. I really like them for all the reasons Tom listed. As far as range...slugs and red dot sights have opened up things. There is nothing like sitting at 50 yards and dropping 1 ounce .70 caliber slugs on top of each other where ever the dot is. Things that we like for cover are not with slugs, and penetration can be controlled with buckshot. With that said, given the choice I like rifles for any field work outside of about 25 yards.

There is a ton of plusses FOR THOSE WILLING TO DO THE WORK. Shotguns when run by duffers amplify mistakes. Contrary to what police administrators and vice presidents think, they are not the best choice as a fighting tool for non-dedicated folks. They recoil hard, they are violent and need to be run with physicality, their ammunition is hard to handle and manage under stress. The balance to all that...they jack stuff up bad when you do hit. To hit you need to aim, and run it properly.

Mike adds to the list of guys like myself, Scott Reitz, many of the guys at LAPD Metro and SIS, and others who are big advocates of them, because we've shot people with them and like what we saw. I think GJM will also back up the idea of the shotgun with slugs and its capabilities on very large bear......now put that capability up against people and Buicks and it makes sense. While Mike Lamb is not a household name trainer, Mike REALLY knows stuff and is one of the top guys out there with a pretty unique background.

So.......If you live behind enemy lines politically, are willing to put the work in, like making gigantic holes in things, or all of the above......the shotgun is very viable.

[nalesq]

Run an 870 pretty damn near as quick as I can run an auto loader.

I can't quite manage this myself. I can get .20-.25 second splits with a Saiga-12 but only .40-.45 second splits with an 870. Not sure how much that matters in "real life," especially given Mr Givens' report of the relative rarity of having to deliver a second serving of buckshot on an enemy, but it has made me consider experimenting more with autos.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[peterb]

I really like them for all the reasons Tom listed. As far as range...slugs and red dot sights have opened up things. There is nothing like sitting at 50 yards and dropping 1 ounce .70 caliber slugs on top of each other .

What red dot sights have worked well for you on shotguns?

[LOKNLOD]

While Mike Lamb is not a household name trainer, Mike REALLY knows stuff and is one of the top guys out there with a pretty unique background.


Mike came to OKC (with Costa) when he was with Magpul Dynamics, cool dude. He had a lot to add to the class.

[Suvorov]

For those who doubt the range thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNTyCcip-ks

The lesson is "know thy equipment".

Well sir, I will have to check this out for myself, but I am quite willing to stand corrected.

[Chuck Haggard]

One of my gurus, Vince O'Neill, liked to demo using slugs out to the 200, and could hit at that range on demand. As noted, one has to put in the work.


Some of the guys on the video posted by the OP appear to need more time on the gun. A common "malf" I see when people run a pump gun is that they pull back with both hands hard and ride the recoil, which then causes them to have the action locked.


As Tom noted, the vast majority of shotgun incidents are a one round event. I am a big fan of rifles, and ARs in particular, but I have never seen one take a human being's arm off at close range. I have seen a 12 gauge do exactly that, with a single round.

[ST911]

Mike approaches the problem with thought, and his valuation of the variables meets his needs. Cool.

I can select my primary long gun, and have chosen a RDS equipped carbine. My shotgun is a specialty munitions gun. For my purposes, the carbine requires less effort to keep it running. Operating it, clearing stoppages, and reloading are the same basic processes as my semi-auto pistol, leaving less training and cognitive divergence. I don't think about ammunition selection variables. I can more effectively run a carbine one-handed than a shotgun, a decidedly two handed gun.

I think that when we talk about the shotgun, we also have to take into account whether it's a pump or SA, and what sighting system is employed on it. Those are significant variables in the flexibility, effectiveness, and effort inherent in a particular gun.


The capacity of the AR is an illusion. For CQB purposes, most trainers recommend a 4-7 round string per target engagement. A 30 round magazine is best loaded with 28, for reliability and insertion with a closed bolt. There are 4 7 round strings in a 28 round magazine. So, at house ranges the AR is a 4 serving weapon. My shotgun holds 6 servings.

Continuing this illustration...

My shotgun also serves 6 (5+1). The problem is that it's a serving size. One shell is ~16% of my capacity. In the event of a failure to stop or additional attacker, adding a round is ~33% my supply. 4-7 rounds from my 28rd loaded carbine is ~14%-25% of my ammo supply, but a single portion can be directed to alternate target zones or attackers.

I think capacity arguments can be overused, and can be a crutch, but aren't an illusion.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Just watched the video.
As an interesting aside, at the 2:47 mark he loses one of the live rounds from the RH sidesaddle due to recoil.

[Urban_Redneck]

Every once in a while I get the urge to add a mag extension and upgrade the sights on my trusty A5... so many projects.

[LSP552]

I like shotguns for the power but they are not the answer for everything and every body. I would never pick a shotgun for people shooting much past 15 yards. Can you hit someone at distance with a slug, sure. But that doesn't make it the best choice. Also, most defense shotguns will struggle to keep a full load of buckshot on a person at 25 yards.

I've spent a lot of time with a 14" 870s with lights, as it was an issue weapon to LSP SWAT and later to LSP across the board, replacing the 18 & 20" guns. For my personal use, I like short guns without tube extensions just for the indoor handling characteristics. I find the 20" guns with full tubes to be unwieldy, just a personal thing and YMMV. A 14" - 18" gun with side saddle and light is hard to beat for home defense or hunting close range bad guys, providing they don't have access to body armor.

I think the ammo switching capability between slugs and buckshot gets over done. I'm sure it has occurred in real life, but the shotgun use I've see has been with whatever it started with in the tube. I see the utility of having few slugs around and if you have time, cover and distance they might make an OK substitute for the lack of a rifle….up to a point.

The time for shotguns as the general issue long gun for law enforcement should have died long ago. There is nothing they can do that a good patrol rifle can't do as well, and there are things the rifle can do a shotgun can't. I see shotguns as a speciality use close range weapon against unarmored people. In that role they excel. Using it as a first choice for something else doesn't make sense to me.

One final comment. Pump shotguns are hard to run without LOTS of experience. Nyeti's comments are right on target. Anyone who has spent time on a law enforcement range will tell you they are the platform most susceptible to user induced malfunctions.

Ken

[Totem Polar]

Just watched the video.
As an interesting aside, at the 2:47 mark he loses one of the live rounds from the RH sidesaddle due to recoil.

Happened elsewhere, too. I noted a number of slugs loosened by recoil. Thing was trying to shed spare ammo visibly.

Pretty hard to argue with slugs for reaching into cars, as DB sagely notes. My only (amateur's) beef with pumps is that I find them hard to use unless I'm standing up, square range style. An AR practically runs itself, by comparison.

Wait, an AR does run itself by comparison. No small thing if your body positioning is in any way compromised.

Still, for raw power/confidence, there's just something about the shotty. I wouldn't argue with any professional's choice either way.

[Joseph B.]

Shotgunners always get me laughing with some of the crazy things they say.

Things like:

Nothing better for X-Y-Z situation/distance
It easy to use and anyone can do it
Don’t need training
Best ever home defense firearm
Don’t have to aim it
Most reliable home defense firearm
Just racking the pump will send the bad guy running who just kicked in your front door
Birdshot for inside the home
One buck is like shooting someone 9 times with 9mm
One hitter quitter
The psych-factor is devastating

I don’t know who Mike Lamb is, but dude needs to get some training on the shotty, as his video of him and his buddies shooting didn’t impress me at all. I don’t know what his “overseas” experience was or where/how he or whoever he was working with were utilizing a shotty, but from my overseas experience, outside of breaching a door and shooting wild dogs, it’s was more added weight that never gets used.

I personally don’t like the shotgun for home defense, it over penetrates, it’s harder to maneuver and transition between targets at close range, the recoil is ridicules, the limited capacity sucks, and reloading it takes forever. I absolutely hate when I see people (especially small framed women) at a gun store looking for a home defense weapon and get a Mossberg 500 planted in front of them, with stories of magical area weapon, no need to aim, its like unloading a 9mm pistol with each shot, Jesus uses it to defend the pearly gates, blah-blah-blahhh. :rolleyes:

Can a shotgun be extremely effective for home defense? Absolutely, a lot of dirt bags have been killed by a shotgun. A lot of them have also been killed with pistols, rifles, knives, swords, baseball bats, etc, etc.

Anyway, all you shotgunners can now tell me how full of crap I am and how much I don’t know about the shotty. :cool:

[JV_]

I don’t know who Mike Lamb is
I didn't either, but this turned up in Google:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=413049


Mike Lamb: Force Recon USMC, deployments in Bosnia, Kosovo, West Africa, Middle East etc all in special operations.

Trainer for Magpul Dynamics, trained hundreds of special operations military and LE personnel over the last 15 years

[TR675]

Shotgunners always get me laughing with some of the crazy things they say.

Things like:

Nothing better for X-Y-Z situation/distance
It easy to use and anyone can do it
Don’t need training
Best ever home defense firearm
Don’t have to aim it
Most reliable home defense firearm
Just racking the pump will send the bad guy running who just kicked in your front door
Birdshot for inside the home
One buck is like shooting someone 9 times with 9mm
One hitter quitter
The psych-factor is devastating

I don't see anybody saying any of those things on this thread...

[Surf]

A couple of thoughts. I think those who are familiar with me understand that I do not like to be overly critical and I try to remain very respectful, but there are some interesting points that can be taken from the video and it is really a good learning opportunity. So with all due respect here are a couple more thoughts. People think the 870 or any pump shotgun is a simple weapon that anyone can easily pick up and be successful with in a defensive situation. Sure perhaps if it is a one shot incident then the lesser trained can be successful but if we need multiple shots, things can get interesting quickly under stress especially for those lacking in training. As others have mentioned the pump shotgun can be one of the more problematic weapons to run under stress. Just look at the video. There was not a single string of fire in that video that did not have an issue, starting off with the first opening live fire scene where Mike had an unlock issue twice, once after the first round and then again on the last round where he attempted to cycle, had an issue and then ended the string of fire instead. Throughout the rest of the video, every scene had one of the shooters encountering issues and I am not talking about rounds falling off the weapon. Of course they were there to train and practice and shit happens during training. And of course repetition via training and practice eliminate much of the issues, but those individuals in the video are clearly not new to firearms and have run shotguns prior to the video and have had formal training at some point in time with a shotgun. So imagine what a lesser trained or average homeowner would experience under stress.

As Mr. Haggard has mentioned the technique needs to be correct with a pump. It is a simple fix with correct repetition of proper training and practice but the natural instinct with the shotgun is not to use a push / pull bow and arrow technique with a relaxed shoulder pocket mount of the shotgun, but rather most untrained or lesser trained individuals will have a tight pull on the stock AND on the pump with a hard pull into the shoulder pocket, which causes what you see in the video in the failures to cycle the weapon correctly. Now if experienced shooters have that issue, imagine what you see from your average joe using a pump shotgun. Auto loaders are great but pick the correct one. I would not suggest an inertia fed shotgun like the one I carry. Of course 14" barrel, side saddle, surefire forend on a M1 Super 90 makes it look like the ideal HD shotgun, but it isn't for the average person being inertia operated. Now a good reliable gas / piston driven system would be more ideal, but still is not devoid of its own limitations that a carbine might be better suited for.

Bottom line, what is right for one person, may not be right for another. Training, skill, size, strength and needs of the individual vary greatly. Use what you are most proficient / effective with. Even more important perhaps is having a practiced plan, hopefully some formal training in defensive principles within the home or structures, knowing your layout intimately even under low light and knowing your angles, backstops, materials used in the construction and the effects of your choice in ammo from intermediate or blind barrier to terminal ballistics. No matter what your choice is, get good with it. Good like your life depended on it good. This aspect is often overlooked by the average shooter. Of course most here at this forum are probably not in the average shooter category either and many here seem to forget that from time to time when giving opinions. Myself included.


I can't quite manage this myself. I can get .20-.25 second splits with a Saiga-12 but only .40-.45 second splits with an 870. Not sure how much that matters in "real life," especially given Mr Givens' report of the relative rarity of having to deliver a second serving of buckshot on an enemy, but it has made me consider experimenting more with autos.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HDThe efficacy that 1 round has on a target is not the only equation. Possible multiple targets or what if I missed the first shot. Just being ready to engage with a second round or follow up shots is not something that we abandon when using a shotgun, so we should be immediately cycling the pump shotgun with a correct technique and this should happen during the recoil phase, just like resetting a trigger on a pistol during recoil. You see way too many people fire the shotgun, get a second sight picture then run the pump. We will do any assessments with a loaded chamber. In other words if you look at the video, there are instances where the shooter seems to be assessing results, then cycling the weapon. This is obviously only a training issues but is critical to ingrain proper technique from the get go.

There are some shooters who make pump shotguns look like auto loaders. Speed and accuracy pretty much on par. It is always cool to watch a very good shooter run a pump.

[Chuck Whitlock]

For my personal use, I like short guns without tube extensions just for the indoor handling characteristics. I find the 20" guns with full tubes to be unwieldy, just a personal thing and YMMV.

A 14" - 18" gun with side saddle and light is hard to beat for home defense or hunting close range bad guys, providing they don't have access to body armor.

I think the ammo switching capability between slugs and buckshot gets over done. ....... I see the utility of having few slugs around and if you have time, cover and distance they might make an OK substitute for the lack of a rifle….up to a point.

Ken

+1! And the factory 870 +2 extension sucks! I took it off my issued gun. The +1 on my personal M1S90 isn't bad at all, though.

If I had a say in it, I would issue 14" 590's with Magpul furniture and a momentary-only Inforce WML (for a pump gun). For a SA, I like the looks of the 14" Remington R12, but I'm not up to speed on self-loading shotties nowadays.

Our issued 870s have Mesa Tactical sidesaddles, but I'm not all wound up to add any to the personal guns.

[Chuck Haggard]

The same things I see on that video are what I see on our firing line when we have guys that haven't worked with the pump gun in awhile.

[Surf]

The same things I see on that video are what I see on our firing line when we have guys that haven't worked with the pump gun in awhile.Agreed completely and mirrors exactly what I see on a regular basis.

And this is one of the negatives, a large negative, of a pump shotgun. If guys with formal training, even LE, are a bit rusty when not working the weapon in awhile, just imagine what is going to happen in a stress situation with the average joe who keeps one in their closet for home defense and rarely shoots it. Shotguns especially pumps are not as simple as many people tout them to be. In reality the video is a good argument for the average person to avoid using one. Those guys are experienced and were having issues. If we as instructors, cops, avid shooters etc, can admit that the pump shotgun can cause issues for experienced shooters with a bit of rust on them, how can I, in good faith suggest one for the average joe? Personally I can't and I don't.

[DocGKR]

I know Mike--he is very experience on the military side of the house.

Lots of good comments in this thread. Of the shoulder fired weapons commonly used for self-defense, shotguns are the most difficult to effectively employ.

Most citizens would do well to follow the lead of LE agencies in their locale and pick similar weapons to what LE feels is prudent and necessary for defensive use against the criminals in that jurisdiction. Often times that is 9 mm or .40 pistols with a 15-17 round magazines and AR15's with 30 rd magazines.

My thoughts on this are here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns

[Doug]

Not having any training in the shotgun, I am kicking myself for not taking the shotgun course that Frank Proctor took the day before his Rifle Course last year in CA. It would take a lot for me to feel as comfortable in all the manipulations as I am with a rifle or pistol. Here is the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ8rBUNittQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ8rBUNittQ

[Dave Williams]

Doug thanks for posting that video. I've never seen that slug select method before, I'm going to give it a try.

[HopetonBrown]

That method is the one shown in the Magpul dvd. Rob Haught prefers to eject a live round, load slug in tube, eject another round. The other shooters in the Mike Lamb video are supposed to be his students.

[jlw]

The same things I see on that video are what I see on our firing line when we have guys that haven't worked with the pump gun in awhile.


Agreed completely and mirrors exactly what I see on a regular basis.

And this is one of the negatives, a large negative, of a pump shotgun. If guys with formal training, even LE, are a bit rusty when not working the weapon in awhile, just imagine what is going to happen in a stress situation with the average joe who keeps one in their closet for home defense and rarely shoots it. Shotguns especially pumps are not as simple as many people tout them to be. In reality the video is a good argument for the average person to avoid using one. Those guys are experienced and were having issues. If we as instructors, cops, avid shooters etc, can admit that the pump shotgun can cause issues for experienced shooters with a bit of rust on them, how can I, in good faith suggest one for the average joe? Personally I can't and I don't.


I know Mike--he is very experience on the military side of the house.

Lots of good comments in this thread. Of the shoulder fired weapons commonly used for self-defense, shotguns are the most difficult to effectively employ.

Most citizens would do well to follow the lead of LE agencies in their locale and pick similar weapons to what LE feels is prudent and necessary for defensive use against the criminals in that jurisdiction. Often times that is 9 mm or .40 pistols with a 15-17 round magazines and AR15's with 30 rd magazines.

My thoughts on this are here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns



In regards to the comments on LE use and shotgun training, in my experience folks won't "get" the shotgun until they have a "light switch" moment. For some reason they will keep rattling their teeth with each shot instead following instruction and using the rather simple mounting techniques that alleviate the worst of the recoil. Those that do flip the switch find that running a scattergun is a heckuva lot of fun and thus have quite an effective and versatile platform.

Too many pick up an AR, shoot, and say "No recoil. I don't want a shotgun." That was the case at my previous agency. It was hard enough to get them to train with the shotguns, but it dang near got impossible once we got rifles. They have now gone to the shotguns being loaded only with less lethal ammo there.




Doug thanks for posting that video. I've never seen that slug select method before, I'm going to give it a try.

The one downside that I see to it is that you are tossing a round versus retaining it. I don't guess that matters much in a NEED A SLUG NOW moment.

I always thought the one big upside to the Nova design was the magazine cutoff making slug exchanges very simple.

[DocGKR]

If proper technique is used, 12 ga shotgun recoil is quite manageable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4. Using this type of technique, it is possible to routinely fire 300-500 rds of full power buckshot and slugs per day out of an 870P without issues, even over multi-day training evolutions. The problem is mastering and maintaining the ammunition management skills inherent in tube magazine shotguns. That is what makes them harder to utilize effectively compared to an AR15.

[BaiHu]

Thanks folks. I'm getting a whole lot to think about here. In short, as always, proper training will do loads of good. As a small guy, this video didn't inspire confidence, but the discussion over it has shifted my mindset.

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[feudist]

The SGN brings to the table affordability.

A top quality pump gun can be had for way less than 5 bills in my AO.

It also brings the advantage of any long gun which is hit potential over a handgun.

And, as Senor Givens has noted, impressive wounding.

I think you have to let go of some tactical notions-sustained fire, 50 yard plus engagements, rapid reloading- but these are outliers in an already outlier event.

I personally wouldn't bother with the "select slug" drill, I'd just load up buck or ball and call it good.

The new "flite control" style shot cups extend the viable range to 50 yards in my gun. Add a light and a sling and call it good.

Put in some thoughtful practice, and you are well equipped for serious threats.

For those behind the lines, or not financially ready to outfit a carbine-they're GTG.

[peterb]

As a small guy, this video didn't inspire confidence, but the discussion over it has shifted my mindset.

If the big concern is recoil management:
A gas-operated semi will usually have less felt recoil than a comparable pump, and be less vulnerable to user-induced malfunctions.
Proper fit makes a big difference in felt recoil. Upgrading the recoil pad can also help. Some of the factory ones -- especially on older shotguns -- are pads in name only.
The reduced-recoil "tactical" buckshot loads are more comfortable to shoot than full-power loads, and stil meet penetration standards at normal home-defense distances.

[TR675]

Thanks folks. I'm getting a whole lot to think about here. In short, as always, proper training will do loads of good. As a small guy, this video didn't inspire confidence, but the discussion over it has shifted my mindset.

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I was playing with Haught's technique last weekend, and it definitely takes the edge off. I'm tall and skinny, though, and I'm not sure if it is my technique or my comparative lack of mass or strength that keeps it from being as effective for me as it is for Rob. Shooting 300 rounds in a day or two is going to be right up there on my list of "things that are not fun."

[DocGKR]

A lot of my shotguns do not even have recoil pads--I cut them off to make the stock shorter. When using good technique, the arms take most of the recoil, not the shoulder...

For inside use, load up with #1 flight control buckshot and be done with it. If around vehicles or in the wilderness, load with a deep penetrating shotgun slug.

[JodyH]

Just curious why in this thread (on this forum) people keep referencing "the average Joe" or the "guy who doesn't practice" when they talk about how difficult the shotgun is to run or how quickly those skills perish.
:confused:
Myself (and probably the majority of shotgun advocates on this forum) take our shotgunning as serious as we do our handgun or carbine shooting and I think basing a anti-shotgun argument on what untrained and unpracticed individuals do with them is a bit disingenuous, especially in a forum dedicated to serious shooters.

[joshs]

Just curious why in this thread (on this forum) people keep referencing "the average Joe" or the "guy who doesn't practice" when they talk about how difficult the shotgun is to run or how quickly those skills perish.
:confused:
Myself (and probably the majority of shotgun advocates on this forum) take our shotgunning as serious as we do our handgun or carbine shooting and I think basing a anti-shotgun argument on what untrained and unpracticed individuals do with them is a bit disingenuous, especially in a forum dedicated to serious shooters.

I think most of the references had to do with the common (not here necessarily) recommendation of a pump shotgun for an unskilled shooter who is unlikely to practice. For those people, the increased terminal performance may not be worth more complicated manipulations.


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[JodyH]

Yet we routinely recommend a handgun to "unskilled" shooters and it's far easier to make accurate hits with any long gun than it is a handgun.
If we're basing arguments around what's best for unskilled shooters who won't practice we should probably limit discussion to NEF Handi-Rifles.

[TR675]

We may all be splitting hairs here. The guys in the video had a couple of quickly-corrected bobbles. I didn't see anyone short stroke their gun and burst into flame.

I also have to think that the average gun owner's basic level of competence - that is, competence to not shoot themselves or a family member and to effectively use their firearms to defend themselves - is higher than a lot of us might otherwise give them credit for...

[UNK]

If you think a 12 ga. 870 kicks hard you are right...and wrong. If you hold it tight into your shoulder you are not going to last long...at least I won't. However, try holding it by the grip and shooting one handed, the off hand supporting not holding the gun at the forearm and the end of the stock against nothing. You may be amazed at how easy it is to control and how little it moves.
If I'm going to shoot several hundred rounds in a day I'm going to go gas operated or maybe one of the newer style recoil management shotguns which I can't comment on as I really have no experience with them.
Pumps are cheap semi autos are not.
Shooting whatever it is, is not rocket science. Rising to the highest level of competency requires dedication and considerable expense. Being able to adequately defend yourself with something is a different matter.
I would venture to guess that the majority of self defense applications of firearms come from people who would fall into the adequately familiar category.

[jlw]

If proper technique is used, 12 ga shotgun recoil is quite manageable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4. Using this type of technique, it is possible to routinely fire 300-500 rds of full power buckshot and slugs per day out of an 870P without issues, even over multi-day training evolutions. The problem is mastering and maintaining the ammunition management skills inherent in tube magazine shotguns. That is what makes them harder to utilize effectively compared to an AR15.


I agree that the recoil is manageable provided good technique is used. The techniques are rather easy, but I see way too many people who just won't use them. Then they want to avoid the shotgun.

[DocGKR]

"I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken."

The above quote is pure gold!!!

[45dotACP]

Well there's a technique I'd never even heard of...learn something new every day. I'd probably go grab a box of slugs and buckshot and hit up the range if there weren't a foot of snow on the ground. All this talk does seriously give me a hankering to go to a shotgun class now.

Awesome thread.

[Tom Givens]

JodyH was spot on about some folks in this thread denigrating the shotgun because an untrained or unskilled user can screw up with it.

The police dept here fires 10 rounds of shotgun ammo per officer PER YEAR. What a shock that they fail to master the gun. I see the same kind of jack-assery on the line with pistols and carbines among the untrained and unskilled. Remember the news photo of the female police officer covering a building entrance with the AR magazine in backward? I see veteran police officers who need 6-8 seconds for a reload with the handgun during quals, and people who forget to chamber a round in the AR, etc.

All weapon systems are dependent upon an intelligent user who is willing to put in the work if real skill is the goal. If there are 2 or 3 home invaders at the other end of the hall in my home, my 870 and buckshot will do me just fine.

[jlw]

JodyH was spot on about some folks in this thread denigrating the shotgun because an untrained or unskilled user can screw up with it.

The police dept here fires 10 rounds of shotgun ammo per officer PER YEAR. What a shock that they fail to master the gun. I see the same kind of jack-assery on the line with pistols and carbines among the untrained and unskilled. Remember the news photo of the female police officer covering a building entrance with the AR magazine in backward? I see veteran police officers who need 6-8 seconds for a reload with the handgun during quals, and people who forget to chamber a round in the AR, etc.

All weapon systems are dependent upon an intelligent user who is willing to put in the work if real skill is the goal. If there are 2 or 3 home invaders at the other end of the hall in my home, my 870 and buckshot will do me just fine.


Amen.

[Dave Williams]

The police dept here fires 10 rounds of shotgun ammo per officer PER YEAR.

Here in Ohio it's 8! Your officers are high speed!

[Dagga Boy]

I look at the shotgun as a tool for dealing with limited bad guys. It is a couple bad guys gun.....and very efficient in putting them down especially in the confines of a residence or in a car. A good example was many years ago LAPD SWAT deployed on a barricade with a lone subject. Typically of L.A., it was being televised. As the officers were prepping to enter the ground apartment the stack moved up with every single guy except the lead scout (1911 pistol) had Benelli's. I remember some of my guys asking why they would do that? Answer...one guy in close confines with a gun and no hostages, it makes sense to use the tool that is most likely to drop the guy as fast and efficiently as possible. Their units that deal with car bound felons also ends up shooting a lot of them with 12 ga. slugs as their best tool. Think about that....a unit tasked with taking down heavily armed serious bad guys use the 12 ga. very often.....that is a hint. My rifles are generally for the times if events get to the point where no one is coming if I dial 911 (and use this argument a lot with the anti gun people on the "what are you afraid of that you need an assault rifle for....a government crackdown....hahhahaha:mad:). The type of work Mike did overseas was very different than many traditional Military roles, which is why he loves the 12 ga. and understands more than most Mil. guys how and where to use them. For most of "our missions", the 12 ga is a very efficient and "publicly acceptable" tool. And there is something to the "publicly acceptable" side that we may not agree with, but is reality, which is why it is my primary at home.

As I have said before, the shotgun is a "thinking man's gun" to be run right. You need to be on the ball, and aggressive with them. A good example is select slug drills. I have done a ton of them in the field. I set my gun (and our dept guns) up to allow for a rapid load of slug when needed. Anytime I rolled up on a high risk vehicle stop, I would set up a slug as primary and first round up. I did the same on some barricade incidents (pre patrol rifle days) and would advise other officers in the rear of the house to ensure they were not in the "line of flight".

[jlw]

Think about that....a unit tasked with taking down heavily armed serious bad guys use the 12 ga. very often.....that is a hint.


That was my favorite part...

[Chuck Haggard]

Economics has been noted. I'll hit that again.

One can get a high quality pump gun, ammo, and training, for less than what a guy has in an AR15 in the box.

I would submit that the shotgun guy is at that point better armed than the untrained dude with an AR.


I'll throw out that I also know a few guys who have been shooting shotguns all their lives, and have the demonstrated ability to hit small fast moving things way more often than not. If they choose a gauge they know over a rifle they have zero experience with then that would seem to make a lot of sense.

[Dave Williams]

LAPD ....... SWAT Benelli's".. We have an M1 Super 90 w/ extended mag tube w/ ghost rings at work it is AWESOME! I put an old green HK 3pt on it. But it doesn't get used. I can cloverleaf slugs with it. The SWAT guys prefer MP5s.

[Dagga Boy]

Economics has been noted. I'll hit that again.

One can get a high quality pump gun, ammo, and training, for less than what a guy has in an AR15 in the box.

I would submit that the shotgun guy is at that point better armed than the untrained dude with an AR.


I'll throw out that I also know a few guys who have been shooting shotguns all their lives, and have the demonstrated ability to hit small fast moving things way more often than not. If they choose a gauge they know over a rifle they have zero experience with then that would seem to make a lot of sense.

Wayne and I apparently caused a few ruffles at the Industry Masters this year on the sporting clays portion. I very rarely shoot any kind of clay bird stuff, and only hunt people. I wasn't doing all that good.......with the exception of the running rabbit stage. Wayne and I shot this with coach guns, and we found that yelling "carjacker" instead of "pull" is not common. With that said, we shred that stage because it really was like shooting running humans. We tried the "North Korean paratroopers" for the flying stuff, but it didn't work as well.:cool:

[BaiHu]

Lol! Awesome. I mean. Shame on you guys. Isn't the PC police there to monitor you guys? :D

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[JodyH]

.700" dia., 1 1/4oz. @ 1500fps.

Yea... might as well be throwing spitballs.

Federal 230gr. .45acp HST vs. Brenneke Short Magnum
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-01/20140105_171935_zpscrkeefjr.jpg

[Al T.]

We tried the "North Korean paratroopers" for the flying stuff, but it didn't work as well.

Ah, there's your problem. With enemy paratroopers, you have to shoot at their feet as they descend, so bet you guys should have raised your sight pictures. :cool:

[Dropkick]

I only have crumbs and spare change in in my couch. :(

[Unobtanium]

One big reason for the AR over the shotgun is reduced danger of interior wall over-penetration.

That being said, a 1300 sleeps next to me, not a rifle.

I used to say this, as well. In my own testing, I found them to be similar.

Any round is going through dry-wall if it's going to be effective on-target. I think most people can agree with that statement. So, I focused on wall-studs. This would be the second "weakest" thing in a home, aside from hollow-core doors, windows, etc.

I personally prefer barrier-blind 5.56 ammunition. If you like VMAX, or Nosler BT's, then this discussion ends here for you. 5.56 will penetrate less.

However, I found that 00 Buckshot at <10m will not reliably penetrate through 1 pine 2x6 lumber section. Through 2, I could not punch a single 000 pellet, unless they "stacked". Even then that is theory, because none ever made it through 2 boards.

I feel like, based on this and other random items I have shot that a 5.56 is more likely to leave a house than buckshot. Neither are likely to, at all. No firearm that you intend to stop a threat with should EVER be aimed and fired in a direction which you are unsure of within the home if friendlies are also on the home.

My .02, and worth what you paid.

[Unobtanium]

A couple of thoughts. I think those who are familiar with me understand that I do not like to be overly critical and I try to remain very respectful, but there are some interesting points that can be taken from the video and it is really a good learning opportunity. So with all due respect here are a couple more thoughts. People think the 870 or any pump shotgun is a simple weapon that anyone can easily pick up and be successful with in a defensive situation. Sure perhaps if it is a one shot incident then the lesser trained can be successful but if we need multiple shots, things can get interesting quickly under stress especially for those lacking in training. As others have mentioned the pump shotgun can be one of the more problematic weapons to run under stress. Just look at the video. There was not a single string of fire in that video that did not have an issue, starting off with the first opening live fire scene where Mike had an unlock issue twice, once after the first round and then again on the last round where he attempted to cycle, had an issue and then ended the string of fire instead. Throughout the rest of the video, every scene had one of the shooters encountering issues and I am not talking about rounds falling off the weapon. Of course they were there to train and practice and shit happens during training. And of course repetition via training and practice eliminate much of the issues, but those individuals in the video are clearly not new to firearms and have run shotguns prior to the video and have had formal training at some point in time with a shotgun. So imagine what a lesser trained or average homeowner would experience under stress.

As Mr. Haggard has mentioned the technique needs to be correct with a pump. It is a simple fix with correct repetition of proper training and practice but the natural instinct with the shotgun is not to use a push / pull bow and arrow technique with a relaxed shoulder pocket mount of the shotgun, but rather most untrained or lesser trained individuals will have a tight pull on the stock AND on the pump with a hard pull into the shoulder pocket, which causes what you see in the video in the failures to cycle the weapon correctly. Now if experienced shooters have that issue, imagine what you see from your average joe using a pump shotgun. Auto loaders are great but pick the correct one. I would not suggest an inertia fed shotgun like the one I carry. Of course 14" barrel, side saddle, surefire forend on a M1 Super 90 makes it look like the ideal HD shotgun, but it isn't for the average person being inertia operated. Now a good reliable gas / piston driven system would be more ideal, but still is not devoid of its own limitations that a carbine might be better suited for.

Bottom line, what is right for one person, may not be right for another. Training, skill, size, strength and needs of the individual vary greatly. Use what you are most proficient / effective with. Even more important perhaps is having a practiced plan, hopefully some formal training in defensive principles within the home or structures, knowing your layout intimately even under low light and knowing your angles, backstops, materials used in the construction and the effects of your choice in ammo from intermediate or blind barrier to terminal ballistics. No matter what your choice is, get good with it. Good like your life depended on it good. This aspect is often overlooked by the average shooter. Of course most here at this forum are probably not in the average shooter category either and many here seem to forget that from time to time when giving opinions. Myself included.

The efficacy that 1 round has on a target is not the only equation. Possible multiple targets or what if I missed the first shot. Just being ready to engage with a second round or follow up shots is not something that we abandon when using a shotgun, so we should be immediately cycling the pump shotgun with a correct technique and this should happen during the recoil phase, just like resetting a trigger on a pistol during recoil. You see way too many people fire the shotgun, get a second sight picture then run the pump. We will do any assessments with a loaded chamber. In other words if you look at the video, there are instances where the shooter seems to be assessing results, then cycling the weapon. This is obviously only a training issues but is critical to ingrain proper technique from the get go.

There are some shooters who make pump shotguns look like auto loaders. Speed and accuracy pretty much on par. It is always cool to watch a very good shooter run a pump.

I cannot disagree with any of what you have said, but this is why I prefer an autoloader. I can focus on aspects other than cycling the weapon in my training. It removes a step for a human being and dedicates it to a machine which has a lower failure-rate than I feel that I do, performing the same function. A very good argument for an autoloading shotgun of 99% of the population is honest with themselves.

[Irelander]

I have an 870 "Tactical" that I use for HD. It is pretty bare bones except I got rid of the crappy Rem mag tube extension and put on a Wilson +2 and put on left side sling mounts. After reading some info on the AI&P Shotguns website I upgraded some of the internal components to bring my shotty up to Police model specs (extractor, etc.). I admittedly do not practice with it as much as I should but after reading through this thread I am going to hit the range and practice some of the techniques you guys have shared.

After reading this page (http://www.aiptactical.com/Gun_Fight_EWWU.html) and others on the AI&P website I went out and bought the bare bones Rem 870 Tactical. I think it is a great weapon but I totally understand that issues can occur when under stress and particularly in low light conditions. I've been wanting to hit up a training course for the pump shotgun but have yet to pull the proverbial trigger. Thanks for all the insight in this thread. Its that type of advice from serious shooters that keeps me coming back to PF and drives me to become a better shooter.

I have heard of Mike Lamb and I enjoy is TACTV episodes. While I also saw some very awkward shotgun techniques in the video I do think it is important to listen to Mike's dialogue instead of critiquing the video.