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Saym16
01-02-2014, 03:16 PM
what is an epxert time for the Bill Drill ?

JV_
01-02-2014, 03:19 PM
Not from concealment: <= 2 seconds

BLR
01-02-2014, 03:19 PM
what is an epxert time for the Bill Drill ?

Major or minor PF?

GJM
01-02-2014, 03:22 PM
Have to define expert, but I have heard a USPSA master class time, presumably open carry, is 2.0. Think Gabe told me 1.53 is Stoeger's PR, as a data point.

My formula for 2.0 is a .90 draw and five, .22 splits.

jetfire
01-02-2014, 03:30 PM
Major or minor PF?

You really think that matters?

To the OP: I've been chasing a consistent sub 2.00 Bill Drill for a while, to the point where I finally gave up on it. From concealment with a wheelgun, I can consistently get between 2.20-2.40. The hardest part for me is trigger freeze. The fastest clean Bill Drill I ever shot was 1.89 with a Colt 1911 shooting factory FMJ at about a 190 power factor. The second fastest was a 1.92 with a Glock 34.

BLR
01-02-2014, 03:36 PM
You really think that matters?


Well, yeah.

What am I missing? Why wouldn't a 210PF 10mm 1911 take longer than a 160 45ACP PF out of a 1911?

ToddG
01-02-2014, 03:41 PM
Sub 2s.

Major/minor, concealed/not, whatever:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl4tbMHF3xk

HK45, 230gr ball, aiwb

jetfire
01-02-2014, 03:47 PM
Well, yeah.

What am I missing? Why wouldn't a 210PF 10mm 1911 take longer than a 160 45ACP PF out of a 1911?

Like Todd said, sub-2.00 seconds is all that matters. When you worry less about the numbers and more about the shooting, the numbers end up mattering less.

Saym16
01-02-2014, 03:55 PM
thanks all - 2 seconds gives me a target.

I'll begin without concealment, shooting 9mm factory loads. based on past draws and split times I am probably around 2.65 sec.

BLR
01-02-2014, 03:58 PM
Huh. I thought the Bill Drill was an exercise to help in sight tracking skills during recoil. Where'd the 2 sec thing come from?

In any advent, I'm still not seeing why more recoil won't effect split times.

JV_
01-02-2014, 04:07 PM
I am probably around 2.65 sec.[Draw Time] x 2 = Rough Estimate

ToddG
01-02-2014, 04:34 PM
Huh. I thought the Bill Drill was an exercise to help in sight tracking skills during recoil. Where'd the 2 sec thing come from?

A one shot draw from concealment is an exercise, too. That doesn't mean there aren't standards you can compare yourself to.


In any advent, I'm still not seeing why more recoil won't effect split times.

Depending on the shooter it may. But for the most part, with proper skill, it's not as big a factor. It takes more effort to shoot, say, a full power .45 than a typical 9mm but for blind splits on a single close static target the time isn't likely to be that different. Of course there will be a point beyond which that no longer holds true (a Bill with a .460 out of a snubby revolver).

Mr_White
01-02-2014, 04:56 PM
Have to define expert, but I have heard a USPSA master class time, presumably open carry, is 2.0. Think Gabe told me 1.53 is Stoeger's PR, as a data point.

My formula for 2.0 is a .90 draw and five, .22 splits.

I don't think I was misquoting Skills and Drills when I said that...

ETA:

Ok, I found the part in Skills and Drills (page 189, where Ben is talking about setting difficult goals.) Here is what he actually said:


Let's say, for example, I really want to hit a personal best "Bill Drill" time of 1.50 seconds. I may work at it hard for a few weeks. I may emphasize drawing drills and high speed shooting drills to try and hit that time. I may well not hit a 1.50 seconds. Maybe my best was 1.53.

So I'm not sure he's saying that is his actual, personal best time.

jetfire
01-02-2014, 05:01 PM
A one shot draw from concealment is an exercise, too. That doesn't mean there aren't standards you can compare yourself to.



Depending on the shooter it may. But for the most part, with proper skill, it's not as big a factor. It takes more effort to shoot, say, a full power .45 than a typical 9mm but for blind splits on a single close static target the time isn't likely to be that different. Of course there will be a point beyond which that no longer holds true (a Bill with a .460 out of a snubby revolver).

I used to get all hung up on power factor until I shot that Sig 1911 through the Not-AFHF you ran a couple of years back in Washington. That was when I realized that getting a good grip and executing the fundamentals quickly was a lot more important than how I "felt" about recoil.

For me, the point of diminishing returns on recoil is around the .44 Magnum threshold.

GJM
01-02-2014, 05:12 PM
While no doubt there are others, Gabe is the only person I know that can consistently make the time (sub 2.0) from concealment.

Sal Picante
01-02-2014, 05:17 PM
Huh. I thought the Bill Drill was an exercise to help in sight tracking skills during recoil. Where'd the 2 sec thing come from?

In any advent, I'm still not seeing why more recoil won't effect split times.

I think it all depends what you really get used too... The gun returns to where it needs to be pretty quickly even with something like .45.

The <2 second thing became kinda the standard for fast draw, deliberate hits at a rapid tempo.

jetfire
01-02-2014, 05:19 PM
While no doubt there are others, Gabe is the only person I know that can consistently make the time (sub 2.0) from concealment.

The last few times I've run it from concealment it's all be 2.2s and 2.3s, but that's from a cheater vest with IDPA holster.

Mr_White
01-02-2014, 05:37 PM
So, back to the OP's question, and as others have said, two seconds is customarily considered Master class time for a Bill Drill among USPSA competitors using their normal, unconcealed gear. No doubt there are a ton of people who can do quite a bit better than two seconds too.

The Bill Drill was one of the first things I chased as I worked harder on technical skills. I had read about the drill in the back of Surgical Speed Shooting by Andy Stanford. He referenced the traditional two second, Master class standard and stated that three seconds, with street gear, was 'quite fast.'

I like adopting tough times and goals to strive for, and working toward the traditional unconcealed, race gear benchmark was a fun and worthy goal to attack with carry gear from concealment, though I certainly recognize that appendix carry is part of what makes that a realistic task for me.

The Bill Drill has a very simple breakdown on paper - the goals are a one second draw and .2 second splits thereafter.

BLR
01-02-2014, 05:57 PM
The Bill Drill has a very simple breakdown on paper - the goals are a one second draw and .2 second splits thereafter.

I am waaaaay out in space on this, but, I wasn't aware a Bill Drill even incorporated drawing. The way I understood it, the purpose was to learn to learn sight tracking. Heck, a target wasn't even used as it distracted from concentrating on the sight picture. The entirety of the drill was sight picture during and coming back from recoil. That was the first time I was conscious of blinking at the shot.

Todd - I didn't think I implied anything about standards. My only point was, and is: split times will necessarily increase for higher recoil. I don't see how there can be any argument over that. Will it not be more difficult, all else equal, to track a sight that rises an extra 10 degrees? Or rolls back an extra 0.5 inches during recoil? Isn't that the whole point behind lightened slides? And the Sight Tracker?

I have no expertise in this, but the physics seem simple enough.

GJM
01-02-2014, 06:07 PM
I am waaaaay out in space on this, but, I wasn't aware a Bill Drill even incorporated drawing. The way I understood it, the purpose was to learn to learn sight tracking. Heck, a target wasn't even used as it distracted from concentrating on the sight picture. The entirety of the drill was sight picture during and coming back from recoil. That was the first time I was conscious of blinking at the

Earth to Bill.....

Kidding aside, I think it is primarily a relaxation drill as tension leads to being slower.

ToddG
01-02-2014, 06:12 PM
Todd - I didn't think I implied anything about standards.

The OP asked what an "expert time" was for the drill. Folks answered. I'm not seeing the issue.

\
My only point was, and is: split times will necessarily increase for higher recoil. I don't see how there can be any argument over that. Will it not be more difficult, all else equal, to track a sight that rises an extra 10 degrees? Or rolls back an extra 0.5 inches during recoil? Isn't that the whole point behind lightened slides?

Assuming facts. Does the slide rise 10 degrees more or 1 degree more? Regardless of how far it travels is the time to recovery still essentially the same for a skilled shooter? There's a reason why a fast moving slide, even though it may flip more, is preferable to a slow moving slide.

Mr_White
01-02-2014, 06:13 PM
I am waaaaay out in space on this, but, I wasn't aware a Bill Drill even incorporated drawing. The way I understood it, the purpose was to learn to learn sight tracking. Heck, a target wasn't even used as it distracted from concentrating on the sight picture. The entirety of the drill was sight picture during and coming back from recoil. That was the first time I was conscious of blinking at the shot.

That's a perfectly worthwhile thing you are describing but it is not a Bill Drill. A Bill Drill is to draw and fire six A-zone hits as fast as you can make those As. It definitely does help with sight tracking, and more. I think 7 yards is the generally accepted distance, though taking it to further distances is also very useful and challenging.



Todd - I didn't think I implied anything about standards. My only point was, and is: split times will necessarily increase for higher recoil. I don't see how there can be any argument over that. Will it not be more difficult, all else equal, to track a sight that rises an extra 10 degrees? Or rolls back an extra 0.5 inches during recoil? Isn't that the whole point behind lightened slides? And the Sight Tracker?

I have no expertise in this, but the physics seem simple enough.

I'm not great at controlling recoil, so I think more recoil may take me a bit longer to recover from, and that's certainly logical and the intuitive thing to think. But I'm with Todd on this, I think it takes more effort, more than it takes more time, to recover from stronger recoil (up to a point.) It may actually take more time, but it's a very small increase, like a couple of hundredths per split.

BLR
01-02-2014, 06:19 PM
Gabe/Todd - ok. No argument.

Was this named after Bill Jordan or Bill Wilson?

Mr_White
01-02-2014, 06:26 PM
I have always heard it was named after Bill Wilson.

DocGKR
01-02-2014, 06:35 PM
How do you define a Bill Drill?

Around here it is a D6 Bill Drill from 7 yards, drawing from concealment and getting all A-Zone hits--under 3 sec is the minimum standard, under 2.5 sec is good, under 2 sec would be world class. Best I've done recently is around 2.4 sec using those parameters--irrespective of service pistol or caliber.

Opening it up to something like C-zone steel makes it a bit easier to go faster...

Mr_White
01-02-2014, 06:40 PM
How do you define a Bill Drill?

Around here it is a D6 Bill Drill from 7 yards, drawing from concealment and getting all A-Zone hits--under 3 sec is the minimum standard, under 2.5 sec is good, under 2 sec would be world class. Best I've done recently is around 2.4 sec using those parameters--irrespective of service pistol or caliber.

Opening it up to something like C-zone steel makes it a bit easier to go faster...

What do you mean by D6?

The way I do it is: 7 yards, concealed, hands at sides start.

I've seen people write that they do it at 10 yards, or with a surrender start, but typically not from concealment.

GJM
01-02-2014, 06:43 PM
All you want to know, and more (14 pages):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=964&hl=

Concealed adds a wrinkle that may confuse the comparison of times, as appendix concealed is nearly as fast as OWB open for skilled shooters, and appendix concealed is faster than OWB concealed for most everyone.

DocGKR
01-02-2014, 07:55 PM
D1 = Draw and fire 1 shot
D6 = Draw and fire 6 shots
D1R2 = Draw and fire 1 shot, reload and fire 2 additional shots
D3R3R3 = Draw and fire 3 shots, reload and fire 3 additional shots, reload again and fire 3 final shots

jetfire
01-02-2014, 10:24 PM
All you want to know, and more (14 pages):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=964&hl=

Concealed adds a wrinkle that may confuse the comparison of times, as appendix concealed is nearly as fast as OWB open for skilled shooters, and appendix concealed is faster than OWB concealed for most everyone.

Generally speaking, IDPA style concealment will add about 0.20 to my draw when compared to unconcealed OWB from a non race holster.

Leroy
01-03-2014, 05:59 AM
Original Bill Drill was surrender start, uspsa target at 7 yards, draw and 6 shots, all shots must be A's.
I always felt that the emphasis was a good grip on the draw, with a good grip and fast draw the sights just track and it is just about pulling the trigger after that. Mess up the grip on the draw and it just doesn't go well.
Another good drill that would help with improving the Bill Drill is the Garcia dot drill. Target is 2" circle, 7 yards, hands at sides start, 5 sec. par time, draw and and fire 6 shots into the 2" circle (shots must be completely inside the circle perf hits don't count), repeat 5 times for a total of 6 strings. Goal is 36 consecutive shots in a 2" circle beating the par time. This drill is crazy hard, but also really emphasizes a perfect draw, sight tracking, plus trigger control.
Many shooters have really learned calling their shots on 25 yard Bill Drills.

Chris Rhines
01-03-2014, 07:21 AM
D1 = Draw and fire 1 shot
D6 = Draw and fire 6 shots
D1R2 = Draw and fire 1 shot, reload and fire 2 additional shots
D3R3R3 = Draw and fire 3 shots, reload and fire 3 additional shots, reload again and fire 3 final shots

Funny, I use exactly the same shorthand in my log.

Like Leeroy said, a classic Bill Drill is shot at 7 yards, from a surrender start, draw and fire 6 rounds into a USPSA target. Technically you have to get all six hits in the A-zone for it to count.

Depending on how you approach the Bill Drill, you can use it to practice getting a bunch of different skills. I like to start out by shooting a few (5-10) Bill Drills with the par timer set to 2.2 seconds (or whatever time you *know* you can get six solid Alphas in,) with my focus on getting a perfect rock-solid grip from the drawstroke. The six fairly quick shots help ensure that my awesome grip won't break down under recoil. Next, I shoot a few Bill Drills literally as fast as I can pull the trigger, not worrying about hits overmuch, in order to work on my trigger speed. Finally, I'll set the par timer to a time that I can just barely stretch to meet (for me, around 1.9 seconds) and focus on watching the front sight lift on all six shots.

I also often shoot Bill Drills at 15 and 25 yards. I find that I tend to slow down too much for distant targets. Bill Drills against fairly strict time limits are a good way to fix this tendency.

A good Bill Drill time is 2.0 seconds at 7 yards, from an unconcealed OWB holster. Top shooters should be hitting it in around 1.6-1.7 seconds.

Sal Picante
01-03-2014, 11:03 AM
Another good drill that would help with improving the Bill Drill is the Garcia dot drill.

I disagree... part of the charm of the bill drill is that it gets you shooting faster and helping you notice the bump (FS) bouncing out there...

With the Garcia drill, you really have to be focused HARD on the FS.

I'd almost put it in reverse - the Bill Drill will help a person get better at the Garcia drill.

ToddG
01-03-2014, 12:42 PM
I'd almost put it in reverse - the Bill Drill will help a person get better at the Garcia drill.

I think it depends on the skill of the shooter in question. If someone has trouble even getting on his sights in a Bill, the Garcia can help to teach him control. If someone has his "Bill skills" pretty well dialed in then Garcia adds a much greater level of refinement.

Also, if the reported scoring for Garcia is correct (edge hits don't count) then I've been scoring it wrong (too generously) all this time.

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 12:48 PM
I've only heard details about the Frank Garcia Dot Drill from Ben Stoeger, and he clearly specifies that if you break the line, the shot counts as a hit as per the common custom.

ToddG
01-03-2014, 12:53 PM
I've only heard details about the Frank Garcia Dot Drill from Ben Stoeger, and he clearly specifies that if you break the line, the shot counts as a hit as per the common custom.

Far be it for me to disagree with anything Stoeger says... :cool:

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 12:59 PM
Far be it for me to disagree with anything Stoeger says... :cool:

Lol.

I only meant that Ben was my source for the drill, not Frank Garcia. But I would think Ben would know the right way to run it.

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 01:03 PM
I note that an 8" circle at 25 yards is pretty close in scale to a 2" circle at 7 yards. I like Bill Drills at 7 yards, but also at 25 yards and I like the FG Dot Drill at 7 yards too. I'm not sure I have a sense of which type of drill helps with the other, but I really like how Bills at 25 yards and the FG Dots at 7 yards force me to tighten way up. The FG Dots are a standout to also force me to be on the sights. With the target that close it's really easy for me to get sucked into target focusing when I really need the precision of sight focused shooting. I like all those drills but I maybe lean a bit toward the FG dots for that reason.

GJM
01-03-2014, 01:15 PM
Ref the Garcia dot drill, the dots they use at Universal seem a tad bigger than 2 inches, and are made with black paint on a cardboard target.

Each time I have been to Universal, the morning has started with the dot drill. I think it emphasizes equal amounts front sight, trigger control, grip and patience. It certainly isn't intended as an accuracy drill, like dot torture, but accuracy/speed.

ToddG
01-03-2014, 01:16 PM
I only meant that Ben was my source for the drill, not Frank Garcia. But I would think Ben would know the right way to run it.

Understood and agree.

jetfire
01-03-2014, 01:19 PM
I've started shooting a lot more Bill Drills at 20+ yards. Talk about nerve wracking.

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 01:22 PM
Ref the Garcia dot drill, the dots they use at Universal seem a tad bigger than 2 inches, and are made with black paint on a cardboard target.

Each time I have been to Universal, the morning has started with the dot drill. I think it emphasizes equal amounts front sight, trigger control, grip and patience. It certainly isn't intended as an accuracy drill, like dot torture, but accuracy/speed.


I've started shooting a lot more Bill Drills at 20+ yards. Talk about nerve wracking.

Longer distance Bill Drills and the FG Dots sure are standouts for working the edge of accuracy at speed.

JHC
01-03-2014, 04:17 PM
How do you define a Bill Drill?

Around here it is a D6 Bill Drill from 7 yards, drawing from concealment and getting all A-Zone hits--under 3 sec is the minimum standard, under 2.5 sec is good, under 2 sec would be world class. Best I've done recently is around 2.4 sec using those parameters--irrespective of service pistol or caliber.

Opening it up to something like C-zone steel makes it a bit easier to go faster...

The Bill Drill exposes the weakest link in my shooting. A 2.5 with all A's would make me VERY happy. I've only seen 2.4 - 2.5 a few times, and I don't think all 6 were A's. Relaxed or not I just cannot seem to run a trigger any faster, so I'm just in awe of the 2.0 and under runs. I'm beginning to think I have an aging factor going on in pure trigger speed.

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 04:37 PM
The Bill Drill exposes the weakest link in my shooting. A 2.5 with all A's would make me VERY happy. I've only seen 2.4 - 2.5 a few times, and I don't think all 6 were A's. Relaxed or not I just cannot seem to run a trigger any faster, so I'm just in awe of the 2.0 and under runs. I'm beginning to think I have an aging factor going on in pure trigger speed.

What kind of times are you seeing on your draw and splits? And with what gun and holster?

JHC
01-03-2014, 06:58 PM
What kind of times are you seeing on your draw and splits? And with what gun and holster?

I can't say for draw to first hit on a Bill Drill but splits best out around .22 but range to .26
Now working singles from draw to one aimed hit can be 1.2 ish.

GJM
01-03-2014, 07:26 PM
I consider one shot drills vanity drills, because the times can be fantastic when you can get away with a "one shot" grip!

I know you shoot the Glock, and think its trigger is challenging to shoot fast -- or at least that is the case for me. I started in the mid twenties range, and by just shooting it a lot, moved my Bill split into the .20-.22 range. Occasionally, I see .18 and .19. but can't predict it in advance, and the more I try to be fast, the slower I go. At one point, reading some incredible times here on splits, I decided to just shoot into the berm to work my speed, and got splits slower than my FAST body shots. Once I gave up worrying about splits, they seemed to get faster. I think a contributing factor with the Glock, is I would do lots of one press drills, because of having to reset the slide after each press. With a DA/SA, I go DA first, and then only let the trigger out far enough to press prior to DA, and that gives me practice on working the trigger. An Airsoft pistol, with a reciprocating slide might help, too.

Gabe will probably weigh in, but my recollection is that he is typically in the .18-.20 range on 7 yard Bill splits, with a lot more consistent .18s.

As another data point, a PF member now a GM, told me, as I recall, he didn't shoot splits faster than .20 until he went to the pizza gun. I find the LEM trigger comparable to the Glock, or even a smidge slower for me. I find Sig and Beretta easier to shoot faster splits, and got .18 and .19 from almost the first session on Bill drills. Of course, the Glock is faster to shot one, so it all evens out in the wash.

I doubt it is aging, as we are more or less the same age, and my splits are getting faster. I do believe some people are genetically wired to be faster. I think shooting enough Bill drills to be relaxed helps.

ToddG
01-03-2014, 08:24 PM
Of course, the Glock is faster to shot one, so it all evens out in the wash.

How so?

GJM
01-03-2014, 08:57 PM
How so?

My time to one shot on an A zone at 7 yards is consistently .10 faster with a Glock than a Sig 226 or Beretta Elite. My open carry personal best times with a Glock, to an A zone at 7 yards are in the 70's and I can do mid 80's on demand all day long. Personal best with a DA/SA one shot draw are mid 80's and typical is mid 90's. Comparing slightly faster splits with the DA/SA in the .02 range times five shots washes out the .10 faster draw. This isn't a single session conclusion, but has been established over the course of several years, on multiple occasions. Hope that proves not to be the case with the CZ, with a significantly lighter DA trigger.

If you think my experience is an anomaly, your man Stoeger said the same thing regarding the speed of the Glock to shot 1, in a recent podcast discussing DA/SA guns versus the Glock.

ToddG
01-03-2014, 09:00 PM
Unless it takes you more time to aim & extend the gun than it does to press the trigger, it should take you no more time to score a first hit with a Beretta than a Glock.

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 09:24 PM
GJM, do you mean the difference is in the trigger or ergonomics of those different guns?

If the answer is trigger, are you doing a more conventional draw, rather than a press-out, per se, so the time to work the trigger is tacked onto the end?

GJM
01-03-2014, 09:36 PM
GJM, do you mean the difference is in the trigger or ergonomics of those different guns?

I suspect some of both. Weight and length of the trigger. Weight and thickness of the pistol.

It has been absolutely evident in my experience going from the Glock to the Sig, back to the Glock, and then to the Beretta in the last two years.

Listen to Stoeger's podcast, and hear it from him.

Saym16
01-03-2014, 10:03 PM
here is my best time for today. I had quite a few in the 2.6x range. HK USP expert 9mm, bladetech, no cover.

Shot # Elapsed Time Split Time
1 1.36 1.36
2 1.61 0.24
3 1.85 0.24
4 2.02 0.17
5 2.32 0.30
6 2.55 0.23

Mr_White
01-03-2014, 10:20 PM
I suspect some of both. Weight and length of the trigger. Weight and thickness of the pistol.

It has been absolutely evident in my experience going from the Glock to the Sig, back to the Glock, and then to the Beretta in the last two years.

Listen to Stoeger's podcast, and hear it from him.

I heard that podcast and had assumed it was because of the light weight of the gun in comparison to his current Stock 2. That was an assumption though.

JHC
01-04-2014, 12:02 AM
I consider one shot drills vanity drills, because the times can be fantastic when you can get away with a "one shot" grip!

I know you shoot the Glock, and think its trigger is challenging to shoot fast --

I doubt it is aging, as we are more or less the same age, and my splits are getting faster. I do believe some people are genetically wired to be faster. I think shooting enough Bill drills to be relaxed helps.

Some combat oriented trainer put it in my head one might need that shot. IDK.

But I don't think the Glock trigger is challenging to shoot fast. Quite the contrary.

Chris Rhines
01-04-2014, 08:49 AM
Some combat oriented trainer put it in my head one might need that shot. IDK.

But I don't think the Glock trigger is challenging to shoot fast. Quite the contrary.

Where the Glock trigger really falls apart (for me at least,) is on distant or low-percentage targets under time pressure. It is very difficult to work a Glock trigger fast, without inducing some sight movement.

On close, wide-open targets, I just slap the trigger like it owes me drug money. Yeah, I get some sight movement, but not enough to move me out of the A zone.

JodyH
01-04-2014, 11:35 AM
Just prior to my surgery I was right at 2.5 on Bill Drills with my P2000SK from a leather AIWB concealed.
Draw around 1.25, splits around .21-.23
With my P2000 from a faster holster (still AIWB concealed) I'm closer to 2.25

Bill Wilson
03-08-2014, 10:02 AM
Since this is my drill I thought I'd chime in.............

What it is? Leroy has it basically right on pg 3, but I'd like to add to his description.

History of the Bill drill:

Back in the dark ages when I was a serious IPSC competitor (once on the gold team and twice on the silver team) Robbie and Brian shot WC pistols and we all got together quite a bit for serious practice sessions. On one of these sessions I suggested a drill to work on front sight tracking during recoil and Robbie being the "funny man" he usually is coined the term "Bill Drill" and it has obviously stuck. Keep in mind this was the early 80s and we were all top level IPSC competitors shooting state of the art race guns/gear for the day. At the time we were all shooting .38 super comp guns out of Safariland holsters (we were all on team Safariland).

What it is:

1 IPSC Item target 7yds downrange
Start position: Facing target, surrender hand position
Drill: Draw and fire 6 shots
Object: All "A" hits in under 2 seconds, if you get a shot out of the A zone the run doesn't count

Remember this was top shooters using race gear. I personally can't do a sub 2 second run with a real carry gun from a honest carry holster, more like 2.6 sec would be the norm.

OK so much for the history lesson :D

We've been doing a new Bill Drill these days, I call it the Bill Drill II

Gear: Honest carry gun and holster shooting standard power ammo for the caliber
Target: IDPA, 8" 5 zone
Scoring: Standard IDPA Limited Vickers, - .5 seconds per point down
Round count: 15
Start position: Facing target, hands naturally at your sides
Drill:
String 1 - Draw and fire 1 shot
String 2 - Draw and fire 2 shots
String 3 - Draw and fire 3 shots
String 4 - Draw and fire 4 shots
String 4 - Draw and fire 5 shots

On a decent day I normally shoot sub 10 seconds from the holster and sub 8 seconds from a ready position. I've got a screwed up right shoulder and doing lots of draws tends to cause me to pay for it later, so I do a lot of shooting from the ready. It's not like I'm going to forget how to draw the gun if I don't do a lot of draws after 40 years of pistol shooting!!!

I've done considerably better than 10sec/8sec on really good days after a warm-up and shooting a full size PX4 (easiest gun for me do do multiple shots with). On the other hand, obviously after a 2 week layoff with no warm-up I can't even do a 10 sec run right off the bat, but 10sec/8sec are my personal benchmarks.

ToddG
03-08-2014, 10:05 AM
Bill, I'd love to post this to my Drills section on pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com/drills), any objection?

Bill Wilson
03-08-2014, 10:24 AM
No problem

Rich
03-21-2014, 12:01 PM
Like Todd said, sub-2.00 seconds is all that matters. When you worry less about the numbers and more about the shooting, the numbers end up mattering less.

That's good to know!

I use to be good with a heavy 3inch loaded with FBI load and even faster with the 148WC. (carried AIWB) Sometimes I wonder if a pistol is worth the extra bullets.

Glock1992
11-14-2015, 05:54 PM
Have to define expert, but I have heard a USPSA master class time, presumably open carry, is 2.0. Think Gabe told me 1.53 is Stoeger's PR, as a data point.

My formula for 2.0 is a .90 draw and five, .22 splits.

Just saw someone get a 1.39 with a stock glock trigger....Ridiculous fast

Luke
11-14-2015, 08:28 PM
Just saw someone get a 1.39 with a stock glock trigger....Ridiculous fast

I'm not gonna lie. I'm a wee bit skeptical.

breakingtime91
11-14-2015, 08:40 PM
I'm not gonna lie. I'm a wee bit skeptical.

same.

GAP
11-14-2015, 09:00 PM
I don't even believe most of the random Bill Drill videos I watch when I see the person not using the correct size target and starting with their hands down by their holster. :rolleyes:

Luke
11-14-2015, 09:21 PM
I'll never use the correct size target. I use a uspsa because it's what I have. But the post above that guys says been stoegers PR is a 1.5x (I think, too lazy to double check). I hear Ben is decent, I think like A class uspsa or something. So a 1.39 is pretty fast. That's like a .79 draw and 5 .12 splits. Which is kinda fast I guess. I mean even Gabe is doing those draw times, and that's from concealment.

GAP
11-16-2015, 11:44 AM
Does it make any sense that my bill drill times with a G26 are faster than with a G19 from concealment?

For example, does the shorter slide speed up the draw? Any other reasons to point out? From 25+ yards I see a clear advantage with my G19 but not from inside of 10. Genuinely curious on this phenomenon..

G26 averages are around 2.25-2.50 at the moment from concealment using the proper size target/start position.

JHC
11-16-2015, 11:51 AM
Does it make any sense that my bill drill times with a G26 are faster than with a G19 from concealment?

For example, does the shorter slide speed up the draw? Any other reasons to point out? From 25+ yards I see a clear advantage with my G19 but not from inside of 10. Genuinely curious on this phenomenon..

G26 averages are around 2.25-2.50 at the moment from concealment using the proper size target/start position.

I'm a slow Bill Driller, my PR is 2.28 with 5 A/1 C (USPSA target btw) shooting a G17 but it was chemically enhanced by a huge bullet proof coffee serving. ;)

But, over recent years most of my faster BDs have been with my G26. I think there is more slide velocity and the gun seems to shoot flatter and track easier in this drill but that may be an optical illusion due to slow vision or something.

In retrospect I wish I'd saved all the ammo wasted shooting BDs with the wrong objective. Just trying to see how fast I could get.

GAP
11-16-2015, 01:07 PM
Thanks for the reply, I'm curious to see what others think.

I would agree to slow down and focus on good hits early on. You can probably attack each phase better with individual drills but that's a whole separate discussion.

Sal Picante
11-16-2015, 01:58 PM
Just saw someone get a 1.39 with a stock glock trigger....Ridiculous fast

I remember a class I took a few years ago when I started getting serious and want do train to be a better competitor.
John Krupa/Team Spartan pistol course up in Bristol, WI.

John does this 5-shot drill, starting from retention, on a 4 or 5 yard 8"x11" target, proving it to people that they can fire 5 shots roughly around a second.
He times everyone on a few runs and collects their times, cutting out their initial reaction time (~.50). Rarely do people fail to get to the sub-second mark.

There was a guy from Iron Mt. Michigan who could throw .13 splits all day like candy on his stock M&P. He just had a super limber trigger finger...

I've always been amazed by that. The best I can do with a pistol, on a good day, is a .14 every blue moon...

Mr_White
11-16-2015, 05:35 PM
I've always been amazed by that. The best I can do with a pistol, on a good day, is a .14 every blue moon...

Me too, I am not a great splitter. I think I remember one time, I saw a .13 or .14 on the timer. One time. I've seen .15 maybe three or four times, ever. More like .17 to .22 depending on the ammo and the day and if I want to hit well.

---

Draws on a Bill Drill - for me to do a six shot drill that taxes grip/vision/driving the gun as hard as a Bill Drill does, I'm probably not getting the first shot done before about .90 or so. I end up hanging on an extra tenth or two while I 'lock the gun up on the target spot.' That's what it feels like anyway.

A 1.39 Bill Drill is wickedly awesome with any gear. Stock Glock even moreso. I mean that's like a ~.70 draw and five splits at .14 after that. And that's just gnarly and a lot would have to come together really well for that. I would seriously doubt 1.39 from most people but I also would guess that someone somewhere could do it, if not reliably.

Best Bill Drill I ever shot was a 1.8-something. It wasn't the best because of the time, it was the best because the hits were in about a 3" group. Regardless of accuracy, I don't think I've ever shot a Bill Drill under 1.70 seconds.

breakingtime91
11-16-2015, 05:36 PM
Me too, I am not a great splitter. I think I remember one time, I saw a .13 or .14 on the timer. One time. I've seen .15 maybe three or four times, ever. More like .17 to .22 depending on the ammo and the day and if I want to hit well.

---

Draws on a Bill Drill - for me to do a six shot drill that taxes grip/vision/driving the gun as hard as a Bill Drill does, I'm probably not getting the first shot done before about .90 or so. I end up hanging on an extra tenth or two while I 'lock the gun up on the target spot.' That's what it feels like anyway.

A 1.39 Bill Drill is wickedly awesome with any gear. Stock Glock even moreso. I mean that's like a ~.70 draw and five splits at .14 after that. And that's just gnarly and a lot would have to come together really well for that. I would seriously doubt 1.39 from most people but I also would guess that someone somewhere could do it, if not reliably.

Best Bill Drill I ever shot was a 1.8-something. It wasn't the best because of the time, it was the best because the hits were in about a 3" group. Regardless of accuracy, I don't think I've ever shot a Bill Drill under 1.70 seconds.

2.2 for a D5 is my PR right now... you wizards.

Mr_White
11-16-2015, 05:43 PM
you wizards.

Thanks, I'm 4th level now. One more level and I can cast Fireball. I think later on I get henchmen.

breakingtime91
11-16-2015, 06:56 PM
Thanks, I'm 4th level now. One more level and I can cast Fireball. I think later on I get henchmen.

make sure you focus summoning, I heard you get a Golem..

jetfire
11-17-2015, 11:44 AM
This thread is depressing me, I'm terrified to put my draw on the clock after taking a 6 month hiatus from the shooting sports. I feel like I have to start everything all over again.

Sal Picante
11-17-2015, 01:45 PM
This thread is depressing me, I'm terrified to put my draw on the clock after taking a 6 month hiatus from the shooting sports. I feel like I have to start everything all over again.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/731798/PF/knowthatfeel.jpg

Taking 6 months off after knee surgery and birth of my daughter. Then switching back to the Beretta. All feels wrong.

jetfire
11-17-2015, 02:30 PM
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/731798/PF/knowthatfeel.jpg

Taking 6 months off after knee surgery and birth of my daughter. Then switching back to the Beretta. All feels wrong.

I had one practice session since I've come back with my Timberwolf Compact, and I was like "HOW DO I GUN."

GAP
11-17-2015, 06:51 PM
Does it make any sense that my bill drill times with a G26 are faster than with a G19 from concealment?

For example, does the shorter slide speed up the draw? Any other reasons to point out? From 25+ yards I see a clear advantage with my G19 but not from inside of 10. Genuinely curious on this phenomenon..

G26 averages are around 2.25-2.50 at the moment from concealment using the proper size target/start position.

Would anyone else have any input on this?

Surf
11-17-2015, 09:53 PM
Draws on a Bill Drill - for me to do a six shot drill that taxes grip/vision/driving the gun as hard as a Bill Drill does, I'm probably not getting the first shot done before about .90 or so. I end up hanging on an extra tenth or two while I 'lock the gun up on the target spot.' That's what it feels like anyway.
I am the same as you in that when I shoot a longer string I take more time to the first shot. I am nowhere near as fast as you but from concealment, A zone @ 7 yards, for singles or doubles, I can post up fairly consistent time to first shot in around the high .8's to .9's. But when I shoot strings like the Bill drill that time to first shot drops to around 1.10 as an average. I definitely feel like I am taking more time to lock my grip and and I aim a bit harder.

As for strings or splits, I have a decently quick finger and I can pretty consistently shoot the string of fire in less than a second with fairly consistent high .8's to low .9's. Again it is the time to the first shot that takes a bit longer than say one or two rounds only. So right around 2.0 - 2.1 range would be my normal Bill Drill times. My fastest bill drill all A's @ 7 is 1.84 with a 1.02 draw and a .82 string, so to me your 1.70 and Stoegers 1.5x is smoking. A 1.39 run, just sounds crazy. I know guys run this fast or faster from competition rigs and pistols and often times larger hit zones, but a stock weapon from concealment, all A's and a 1.39 is crazy fast. Might need to see that one.

GJM
11-17-2015, 10:01 PM
With a one (or even two shot) draw drill, it is easy to cheat the grip and get a faster draw, since you don't have to control six shots.

As to blazing one off Bill drills, it would not be inconceivable that the shooter was "reacting" to the anticipated buzzer, and shave .2 or .3 on shot one. If someone can do it three or four times at a that speed, with a random timer, it would seem representative of their on demand ability.

Up1911Fan
11-17-2015, 10:37 PM
My times are way slow compared to a lot on here. A good run for me is under 3 seconds, my draw needs work.

YVK
11-17-2015, 10:55 PM
What I find amusing about BD is my complete loss of ability to count to 6 when pushing speed. I recently botched a classifier by putting 7 on one target and later went on to work on this. I found that I am as likely to shoot 5 or 7, or 6.
I've lost an avenue to draw from concealment during live practice and I shoot from a low ready as if coming from AIWB. I've been getting 1.7-1.8. That is, if I manage to shoot exactly 6 rounds.

Mr_White
11-17-2015, 11:02 PM
GJM, good point. I'd love to see video. Not because I don't believe it, I just want to see it because a 1.39 Bill Drill with a stock Glock is completely awesome.

Surf, I think it is close to universal that times increase as shot sequences increase in length and complexity like with multiple shots, multiple targets, etc. I thinks that's just the way it works.

BehindBlueI's
11-17-2015, 11:51 PM
What I find amusing about BD is my complete loss of ability to count to 6 when pushing speed. I recently botched a classifier by putting 7 on one target and later went on to work on this. I found that I am as likely to shoot 5 or 7, or 6.
I've lost an avenue to draw from concealment during live practice and I shoot from a low ready as if coming from AIWB. I've been getting 1.7-1.8. That is, if I manage to shoot exactly 6 rounds.

Erm, why not just load the magazine with 6? I find it pretty natural to only shoot 6 with a revolver. :D

Luke
11-18-2015, 07:09 AM
I have to only put 6 in the gun. I can shoot, I can count, I can't shoot and count lol

YVK
11-18-2015, 02:25 PM
Erm, why not just load the magazine with 6? I find it pretty natural to only shoot 6 with a revolver. :D

Gets you into a slide lock which is not always desirable.

Surf
11-18-2015, 10:19 PM
Surf, I think it is close to universal that times increase as shot sequences increase in length and complexity like with multiple shots, multiple targets, etc. I thinks that's just the way it works.Yes, it most definitely does.

BehindBlueI's
11-18-2015, 10:43 PM
Gets you into a slide lock which is not always desirable.

I guess I still don't get it. Are you trying to incorporate a reload into the Bill drill? I do reload at the end so I don't get in the habit of standing there with my thumb up my ass and my mind in Arkansas staring at an empty gun, but what am I missing where slide lock matters for this drill one way or the other?

YVK
11-19-2015, 01:15 AM
I guess I still don't get it. Are you trying to incorporate a reload into the Bill drill?

I don't. On the other hand, several USPSA classifiers do. My slide lock reload is more deliberate, and therefore slower, than in-battery and that hurts my times. Those classifiers are fast paced things. 0.2-0.3 may not matter, or it may when everyone else running the drill doesn't spend that time.

Clobbersaurus
11-19-2015, 09:07 PM
I've been thinking about this thread and thinking about what is a reasonable goal for me with this drill and my current gun.

I ran three Bill drills on the weekend:

Beretta 92D Centurion ( JMCK AIWB under a knit shirt)
3.64: 1.76, 2.35, 2.67, 3.0, 3.31, 3.64
2.97(1 out): 1.59, 1.90, 2.16, 2.43, 2.69, 2.97
2.81: 1.55, 1.83, 2.06, 2.32, 2.55, 2.81

So the big limiting factors here are the first shot time and splits.

Addressing the draw first; a 1.55 draw from under a shirt on a 7 yard A zone is fast for me. I think with work I may be able to get this down to 1.2, hopefully.

Splits with a DAO Beretta are slower, they just are. That loooong reset screws me. Average split for the three Bill's above was about .30. Given my last run though, I believe a realistic expectation is to get them down to .27 consistently.

Sooo, that puts me at about 2.55 (1.2 first shot + 5 shots at 1.35) as a realistic goal??? What say you dudes?

Sal Picante
11-19-2015, 09:28 PM
I've been thinking about this thread and thinking about what is a reasonable goal for me with this drill and my current gun.


Dude - I think you could shave off a bout .3-.5 on the draw if you really wanted to...

After a while, working the trigger on a DAO can get you to .20's ish...

Clobbersaurus
11-19-2015, 10:35 PM
Dude - I think you could shave off a bout .3-.5 on the draw if you really wanted to...

After a while, working the trigger on a DAO can get you to .20's ish...

I have a lot of work to do to get my draw stroke to one second with reliable first shot hits at 7 yards. I realize that this is where I need to work to shave the most time.

We'll see on the splits, I need more time on the trigger for sure.

GAP
11-19-2015, 11:04 PM
I have a lot of work to do to get my draw stroke to one second with reliable first shot hits at 7 yards. I realized that this is where I need to work to shave the most time.

We'll see on the splits, I need more time on the trigger for sure.

If you put enough trigger time in you'll get that draw down to around 1 second. At first I hated the two finger grip of the G26, but spending time with it and learning how to establish a good grip changed my mind. I now shoot bill drills faster with my G26 than I do with my G19. I'm not quite at 1 second yet but 1.2 is normal for me with a subcompact.

Glock1992
11-23-2015, 01:22 PM
I'm not gonna lie. I'm a wee bit skeptical.

https://www.instagram.com/t1cs/

Go to this guys instagram...Its like the 11th video down...Dude also has some insane videos of him shooting golf balls, dimes, and altoids out of the air with his glock 17.

Glock1992
11-23-2015, 01:27 PM
Me too, I am not a great splitter. I think I remember one time, I saw a .13 or .14 on the timer. One time. I've seen .15 maybe three or four times, ever. More like .17 to .22 depending on the ammo and the day and if I want to hit well.

---

Draws on a Bill Drill - for me to do a six shot drill that taxes grip/vision/driving the gun as hard as a Bill Drill does, I'm probably not getting the first shot done before about .90 or so. I end up hanging on an extra tenth or two while I 'lock the gun up on the target spot.' That's what it feels like anyway.

A 1.39 Bill Drill is wickedly awesome with any gear. Stock Glock even moreso. I mean that's like a ~.70 draw and five splits at .14 after that. And that's just gnarly and a lot would have to come together really well for that. I would seriously doubt 1.39 from most people but I also would guess that someone somewhere could do it, if not reliably.

Best Bill Drill I ever shot was a 1.8-something. It wasn't the best because of the time, it was the best because the hits were in about a 3" group. Regardless of accuracy, I don't think I've ever shot a Bill Drill under 1.70 seconds.

Yeah it was insanely fast..I linked his instagram, he does a bunch of really impressive shit...But same here man, best Bill drill I've ever gotten was a 1.82.

Luke
11-23-2015, 02:03 PM
Very fast. I could not do that for sure. And he is an amazing shot judging by some of his golf ball shooting videos. But that was C zone steel I think, which is slightly larger than A zone. And how do you not know the distance?

jetfire
11-23-2015, 03:19 PM
Very fast. I could not do that for sure. And he is an amazing shot judging by some of his golf ball shooting videos. But that was C zone steel I think, which is slightly larger than A zone. And how do you not know the distance?

Dude, if if that was a full IPSC target that's still hella fast at 10 yards. Friggin' 0.60 draw? Shit.

Glock1992
11-23-2015, 04:36 PM
Dude, if if that was a full IPSC target that's still hella fast at 10 yards. Friggin' 0.60 draw? Shit.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly...still ridiculously fast to put 6 shots on target that quick. He posted a 0.56 draw and shot on target from concealment...which is ridiculous...haven't seen anything faster myself. Also, I'm sure you've all heard of truexodus by now... If not check out his IG too, got some cool content on there. https://www.instagram.com/truexodus/

Glock1992
11-23-2015, 04:37 PM
Anyone who can get 3 shots from concealment subsecond is one hell of a shooter in my opinion... I struggle with 1 lol

Mr_White
11-23-2015, 05:02 PM
https://www.instagram.com/t1cs/

Go to this guys instagram...Its like the 11th video down...Dude also has some insane videos of him shooting golf balls, dimes, and altoids out of the air with his glock 17.

Wow, that dude has some pretty frigging awesome stuff going on! I am impressed.

eyemahm
11-23-2015, 05:43 PM
A 1.39 Bill Drill is wickedly awesome with any gear. Stock Glock even moreso. I mean that's like a ~.70 draw and five splits at .14 after that. And that's just gnarly and a lot would have to come together really well for that. I would seriously doubt 1.39 from most people but I also would guess that someone somewhere could do it, if not reliably.


Couple notes on that 1.39 "bill drill"... and I point this out not to knock t1cs, because his draw speed is flat out ridiculous from concealment.

First, shooting on an A zone is different from shooting on a full or 2/3 size IPSC steel target. I'd be curious to see how he did with the drill's specified accuracy standards.

Second, what's still stock about that Glock? Stippling, who cares.. but when you get down into sub .20 splits (he's averaging ~.15 apparently) I suspect the lightening cuts in the slide start to make a bit of difference (lower reciprocating mass is going to allow it to shoot flatter, with increased cyclic speed, at the expense of durability with duty ammo). Though the trigger itself looks stock, and I'd like to believe the internals are as well, I can't yet conceive of the individual who customizes their Glock's slide, magwell, frame, and barrel, and then leaves the trigger alone. Personally, I would consider that Glock heavily modified and, in 40, a decent Limited gun.

If the speed and accuracy are both there, I'm surprised he's not contending for USPSA championships instead of posting on instagram.

Glock1992
11-23-2015, 06:00 PM
Couple notes on that 1.39 "bill drill"... and I point this out not to knock t1cs, because his draw speed is flat out ridiculous from concealment.

First, shooting on an A zone is different from shooting on a full or 2/3 size IPSC steel target. I'd be curious to see how he did with the drill's specified accuracy standards.

Second, what's still stock about that Glock? Stippling, who cares.. but when you get down into sub .20 splits (he's averaging ~.15 apparently) I suspect the lightening cuts in the slide start to make a bit of difference (lower reciprocating mass is going to allow it to shoot flatter, with increased cyclic speed, at the expense of durability with duty ammo). Though the trigger itself looks stock, and I'd like to believe the internals are as well, I can't yet conceive of the individual who customizes their Glock's slide, magwell, frame, and barrel, and then leaves the trigger alone. Personally, I would consider that Glock heavily modified and, in 40, a decent Limited gun.

If the speed and accuracy are both there, I'm surprised he's not contending for USPSA championships instead of posting on instagram.

Yeah it may not be to the original parameters of the Bill Drill, still a modified bill drill and impressive at that...Not sure I know anyone that could get the kind of speed he got from concealment. As far as the glock goes, he claims to have a completely stock trigger, and I don't see why he would lie about that...Trigger work or not it wouldn't take away from the crazy trick shots he takes, they're still equally as impressive regardless. And as far as the instagram thing goes...He's pretty new to it, and just went from like 1k followers to almost 10k in one day...So it's just a matter of time before he's sponsored by somebody and shooting for free. Instagram has its benefits, I've seen lots of people profit from it.

Luke
11-23-2015, 06:13 PM
I can't even find the video anymore. But I swear in the description it said salient arms glock.. And Gabe is .10 off this guy on the draw right?

Mr_White
11-23-2015, 06:16 PM
Couple notes on that 1.39 "bill drill"... and I point this out not to knock t1cs, because his draw speed is flat out ridiculous from concealment.

First, shooting on an A zone is different from shooting on a full or 2/3 size IPSC steel target. I'd be curious to see how he did with the drill's specified accuracy standards.

Second, what's still stock about that Glock? Stippling, who cares.. but when you get down into sub .20 splits (he's averaging ~.15 apparently) I suspect the lightening cuts in the slide start to make a bit of difference (lower reciprocating mass is going to allow it to shoot flatter, with increased cyclic speed, at the expense of durability with duty ammo). Though the trigger itself looks stock, and I'd like to believe the internals are as well, I can't yet conceive of the individual who customizes their Glock's slide, magwell, frame, and barrel, and then leaves the trigger alone. Personally, I would consider that Glock heavily modified and, in 40, a decent Limited gun.

If the speed and accuracy are both there, I'm surprised he's not contending for USPSA championships instead of posting on instagram.

Yeah....I thought of those things too. Bigger target, I couldn't see the specific hits, looks like a fairly upgraded Glock, little contrivances in some of the start positions.

I don't feel like it takes away much from what he appears to be able to do. Videos on the internet can always be faked in some way. But between all the videos of his that I watched, I saw enough to feel like he can at the very least intermittently gunhandle and shoot really really well, and maybe a lot more than that too.

That he shoots very accuracy intensive shots (the little stuff out of the air) counters some of the issue possibly suggested with the big B/C targets.

Dude in competition/USPSA: I think I saw that one of his videos was of his 'first competition' or something like that. It wasn't USPSA. Moving from short-form range drills and concise feats of shooting, to the relative marathon of USPSA can be very demanding. If he shot USPSA, maybe he would do what I'm doing only better. Entirely possible. Or maybe he'd have a tough time. There is a big distance from isolated range feats to top level performance on demand in a public venue. But, even if he can do crazy good only a little bit now - and he may already be much more consistent that that, I don't know - he has an ability that he can work on expanding to the longer courses of fire and broader shooting circumstances found in USPSA.

The 'how full of crap is this person' question is one that I attempted to contend with when I first started posting videos on PF. At that time I made the videos very specifically to show things from start to finish, no editing, lots of showing the camera to the timer, one uninterrupted camera shot, etc. Eventually I went the other direction and tried to make my videos as concise and watchable as possible. What would have been a four minute video can now be a forty second video and I think that's a lot better. In the long run, I think credibility on the internet is best established by shooting in public no B.S. events, in person with other internet people who can then know with certainty that you are not full of crap. For me that was Aim Fast Hit Fast, USPSA, GSSF, and the trip to Rogers. There are a number of PF members who have had the chance to decide for themselves how full of crap they think I am or am not. It may just be that we are seeing this guy before he's got some of that established, or he's already done it and we are simply unaware.

I give him credit for extremely high speed of draw, reloads, splits, and transitions. I give him credit for very, very accurate shots on aerial targets. More than that remains to be seen, but I am optimistic because I don't think somebody is going to be very able to do the things we do see him doing, without being pretty solid in other ways too. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it strikes me. My hat is off to that dude.

Mr_White
11-23-2015, 06:25 PM
I can't even find the video anymore. But I swear in the description it said salient arms glock.. And Gabe is .10 off this guy on the draw right?

Pretty sure he was shooting a Salient Glock...that's what it looked like and I thought it said so in the description of a few of the videos.

Yeah he is getting faster draws than I usually do, particularly on the longer strings he is shooting. There may be some difference made by the B/C zone (wish I could see the individual hits) vs. the A-zone or smaller targets I am usually shooting at, and I felt like he had some 'creepy' start positions with hands directly in front of the body and I wasn't sure if he was starting with his thumb under the shirt sometimes (think I saw that in his dry fire video.) But I feel like he is kind of edging me out on the draw a bit even allowing for all that. Makes me want my damn slide bite to hurry up and finish healing so I don't have to skip live fire out of the holster. I have been working on my draw some in dry fire recently and this guy's videos make me want to go draw fast!

Luke
11-23-2015, 06:38 PM
You need to go to the range and just go balls out on a full size uspsa target and see what you can do. I'd be curious.

Mr_White
11-23-2015, 06:56 PM
You need to go to the range and just go balls out on a full size uspsa target and see what you can do. I'd be curious.

I'd like to try some singles and Bills just because I have been tuning up my draw lately. But, the question is already answered. 0.61 is the fastest live fire draw of mine that I have seen on the timer. It was an A-zone hit but it was a single shot hoper. It's in the review/endorsement/advertisement I made for Keepers Concealment at about 2:42.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updX6Qyddxk

Luke
11-23-2015, 08:07 PM
I'd like to try some singles and Bills just because I have been tuning up my draw lately. But, the question is already answered. 0.61 is the fastest live fire draw of mine that I have seen on the timer. It was an A-zone hit but it was a single shot hoper. It's in the review/endorsement/advertisement I made for Keepers Concealment at about 2:42.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updX6Qyddxk

I really hope one day I can shoot as good or half as good as you.

Edwin
11-23-2015, 10:01 PM
I remember a class I took a few years ago when I started getting serious and want do train to be a better competitor.
John Krupa/Team Spartan pistol course up in Bristol, WI.

John does this 5-shot drill, starting from retention, on a 4 or 5 yard 8"x11" target, proving it to people that they can fire 5 shots roughly around a second.
He times everyone on a few runs and collects their times, cutting out their initial reaction time (~.50). Rarely do people fail to get to the sub-second mark.

There was a guy from Iron Mt. Michigan who could throw .13 splits all day like candy on his stock M&P. He just had a super limber trigger finger...

I've always been amazed by that. The best I can do with a pistol, on a good day, is a .14 every blue moon...

I always wonder if people like that are blessed with ACTN3.

Glock1992
12-18-2015, 12:01 PM
I'd like to try some singles and Bills just because I have been tuning up my draw lately. But, the question is already answered. 0.61 is the fastest live fire draw of mine that I have seen on the timer. It was an A-zone hit but it was a single shot hoper. It's in the review/endorsement/advertisement I made for Keepers Concealment at about 2:42.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=updX6Qyddxk

I just watched that video and realized you're the same person who posted an article about competing in USPSA from AIWB, exactly how you carry. Which has been bookmarked on my phone since, and is my main motivator to start competing in USPSA! That's awesome man, you're one hell of a shooter! For some reason everyone I know of that competes in USPSA doesn't know whether AIWB is legal or not...I even asked someone who regularly carries AIWB and they told me they thought it wasn't allowed. So I referenced him to your article.

Mr_White
12-18-2015, 01:02 PM
I just watched that video and realized you're the same person who posted an article about competing in USPSA from AIWB, exactly how you carry. Which has been bookmarked on my phone since, and is my main motivator to start competing in USPSA! That's awesome man, you're one hell of a shooter! For some reason everyone I know of that competes in USPSA doesn't know whether AIWB is legal or not...I even asked someone who regularly carries AIWB and they told me they thought it wasn't allowed. So I referenced him to your article.

Hey thanks! Glad to hear you liked that article and that you are getting into USPSA. As a defensive handgun guy at heart, I can't even tell you how beneficial I think it is to add USPSA competition to an established tactical/defensive skillset.

I've heard of people who are trying to shoot AIWB in USPSA having trouble here and there. It is not common but I've heard of it a few times. AIWB is absolutely legal in Open, Limited, and Limited-10, as long as the holster is 'otherwise safe'. There should be no issue with a leather or kydex full bodied holster that covers the trigger guard. Confusion happens sometimes if you are shooting what appears to be a Production gun from an AIWB holster. A few times an RO has started to say what I was doing wasn't legal because of the holster position, then realized I was shooting Limited and it was fine. In any case, USPSA clubs are obligated to follow USPSA rules, and if a club is not, USPSA should be notified and ought to straighten them out. I think there was actually even an official clarification on AIWB recently so hopefully that wouldn't be necessary...yep, found it, here you go: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=59

Good luck!!! If you feel like it, you should post how it goes here on PF. There are a bunch of people here who do some competing with their carry gear and I'm sure they'd love to hear about it. I certainly would.

Glock1992
12-18-2015, 01:24 PM
Hey thanks! Glad to hear you liked that article and that you are getting into USPSA. As a defensive handgun guy at heart, I can't even tell you how beneficial I think it is to add USPSA competition to an established tactical/defensive skillset.

I've heard of people who are trying to shoot AIWB in USPSA having trouble here and there. It is not common but I've heard of it a few times. AIWB is absolutely legal in Open, Limited, and Limited-10, as long as the holster is 'otherwise safe'. There should be no issue with a leather or kydex full bodied holster that covers the trigger guard. Confusion happens sometimes if you are shooting what appears to be a Production gun from an AIWB holster. A few times an RO has started to say what I was doing wasn't legal because of the holster position, then realized I was shooting Limited and it was fine. In any case, USPSA clubs are obligated to follow USPSA rules, and if a club is not, USPSA should be notified and ought to straighten them out. I think there was actually even an official clarification on AIWB recently so hopefully that wouldn't be necessary...yep, found it, here you go: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-NROI-ruling-details.php?indx=59

Good luck!!! If you feel like it, you should post how it goes here on PF. There are a bunch of people here who do some competing with their carry gear and I'm sure they'd love to hear about it. I certainly would.

Thanks man I really appreciate it...I haven't had a chance to compete in one yet, but hope to sign up for next months. I'll let you know how it goes, I'm sure I'll do awful lol, never competed before. I'd love to learn some stuff from you and hopefully improve my shooting...

Glock1992
12-18-2015, 01:25 PM
Well I just checked my local range, looks like the next USPSA match won't be until March. I guess they don't hold them in the colder months. Bummer.

jetfire
12-18-2015, 04:16 PM
After finally getting back behind the gun in a serious fashion, I starting doing bill drills again. I shot a couple of clean 2.20s, a couple of unclean sub-2.00s, then shot a 1.98 clean and decided it was time to go home for the day. This was using the Taurus PT1911 that I'm torture testing, because I like 1911s with erratic ejection patterns that throw brass into my face.

Mr_White
12-18-2015, 04:43 PM
because I like 1911s with erratic ejection patterns that throw brass into my face.

Well who doesn't? :)

Sal Picante
12-18-2015, 05:15 PM
I like 1911s with erratic ejection patterns that throw brass into my face.

Is that still considered a facial?

JAD
12-18-2015, 05:18 PM
Is that still considered a facial?

Given that it's a Taurus I'd have to call it a 'no-money shot.'

And to the OP, I looked back through my journals and bill drills are usually clean on a B8 bull but glacial at ~4 seconds. Lot of work to do.

jetfire
12-18-2015, 05:39 PM
Well who doesn't? :)

You know what the damndest thing is? I actually really like this gun, because it's a 9mm 1911 with a pretty decent trigger. It's a hoot to shoot, but it has all these little issues that drive me, or any other serious shooter, totally nuts. It's like having an old roadster that's really great to drive, but leaks oil everywhere and has all kinds of electric gremlins.

Mr_White
12-18-2015, 06:01 PM
And to the OP, I looked back through my journals and bill drills are usually clean on a B8 bull but glacial at ~4 seconds. Lot of work to do.

I'm sure you can learn to do that faster, but if you mean in the black of a B8 bull, that is a little less than half the size of an 8" circle, and a little over a third the size of a USPSA lower A-zone, which is the target most associated with the two-second Bill Drill benchmark.

JAD
12-18-2015, 06:43 PM
I'm sure you can learn to do that faster, but if you mean in the black of a B8 bull...

I did. That's nice then.

Surf
12-22-2015, 12:12 AM
OK, this thread got me wanting to work on my speed to first shot and then to also see where my times differ from a single shot, to what the first shot is on a string of shots. I was running SEB targets shooting for the upper box about 6" square @ 7 yards. I was running singles at about low .70's on average with some high .60's. When running strings of fire instead of singles I was running about .5 seconds on average slower to the first shot.

I did however run about the best Bill Drill ever. The video was only part of my personal training vlog so I didn't show the target, but the group is what amazed me. It was very close to a ragged hole. I will say that the sun must have been shining on this old dogs ass that training day as all my shots or groups were money. Just one of those days.

Anyway I ran about my best Bill Drill ever considering overall time and groups. I will note that I think my splits overall are getting slower a bit but I think that I am just being pickier about group sizes. I used to be OK with an entire A zone, but now I like to shrink that acceptable hit zone size down quite a bit.

Anyway I ran a 1.75 with a .75 / .22 / .20 / .20 / .21 / .17 Sorry but is was not from the surrender position. It just makes me realize how hard it is to decrease times by just a tenth and how some guys running 1.6's or better are just smoking fast.

https://youtu.be/amSGAA9kPMQ

Mr_White
12-22-2015, 11:20 AM
That is awesome, Surf!

Luke
12-22-2015, 11:43 AM
It really is. It looks very smooth too

scjbash
03-11-2018, 11:12 PM
Necro posting the hell out of this thread because I hit a milestone on the Bill Drill today and I'm damn happy about it.

I've flirted with a 2 second Bill for about a year. I'm shooting an M&P 2.0 carried strong side IWB in a JMCK holster. I've shot the drill every couple months or so and it's always the same thing. Clean runs (USPSA A zone) kept getting close, down to 2.01. I've ran sub 2 seconds with one or two C's multiple times. I've never put it all together though and I refuse to do more than five runs in one session in a cheap attempt to win by attrition.

I've made some small adjustments to my stance that have paid off and I felt pretty good today so I made a run at it.

Today's times:

2.02 Clean
1.99 2 C's
2.04 Clean
2.09 Clean
1.91 Clean

I went for broke on the last run and it paid off. I felt more relaxed and in a way like I had less control, and sure enough that's when it all finally came together.

.95 draw
.20
.18
.19
.20
.19

After that I didn't see the point in shooting anymore, and threw all my shit in the truck and went to my favorite pizza joint. The one thing that pisses me off is I took a GoPro that I bought last week but I got so aggravated trying to keep it connected that I didn't use it at all today. Now I can't relive my glory. :D

JCN
09-27-2022, 04:51 PM
After shooting the Dickens-inspired 40 yard 10 shot drill at 0.45 splits:


https://youtu.be/zWWNhUf9ILc

Did a few 7 yard Bill drills


https://youtu.be/hkOKFjyy2p4

This is about the limit of draw speed for me with a gun this heavy.


https://youtu.be/r5CSFWQ8fUg

vcdgrips
09-27-2022, 07:09 PM
What kind of gun/gear/load/concealment or not, speaking for myself, puts these performances in context.

FWIW/YMMV

JCN
09-27-2022, 07:42 PM
What kind of gun/gear/load/concealment or not, speaking for myself, puts these performances in context.

FWIW/YMMV

I thought I put it in the tags, or at least I did in the other post.

I shot it with CO gear (Shadow 2, RHT holster, SRO), 150 Syntech.

Shot double action for the first shot as is the rule set for division.

It came up recently in the USPSA CO nationals side match for context:

94941

People got as many tries as they wanted to pay for.

Same CO gear that I used for most.

It’s also interesting that a lot of tactical type guns are now firmly into “Open” categories with SRO, compensators and 2011s.

YVK
09-27-2022, 08:07 PM
People got as many tries as they wanted to pay for.


I was told a funny thing about it but since I wasn't there and can't confirm, I won't say it. The general idea is that "reshooting" is an understatement, if the story was true.

Clusterfrack
09-27-2022, 08:29 PM
I was told a funny thing about it but since I wasn't there and can't confirm, I won't say it. The general idea is that "reshooting" is an understatement, if the story was true.

I think we can see how many times each person shot from the change log number in Practiscore? Lockwood did it 6 times?

JCN
09-27-2022, 08:36 PM
I think we can see how many times each person shot from the change log number in Practiscore? Lockwood did it 6 times?

Might have a wrinkle if someone shot it back to back to back to back… would only show up as one change log if they didn’t save and exit out.

Since each fee was for a pair of tries, probably more than 12 tries I think. I heard $300 spent.