Salient Arms

[KevH]

Costa has one, Kyle Lamb has one, so does Jason Falla and some other big name trainers and industry folks. Ballistic Radio just ran a Sig Mk25 done up by them for 25k rounds.

So what I have gathered about Salient is they took some of the mods done by Taran Butler (no longer associated with them) and other 3-gunners (slide lightening, grip mods and such) and apply them along with some nice finishes and put them into the hands of known folks for free so they get some great marketing and then charge consumers a metric ton for them.

The question is do these mods really make the gun run any better or more comfortable for the shooters or are they just very expensive added glitz?

Are they truly innovative and worth it or a passing fad?

[justintime]

I think worth it would be highly subjective in this case. Depends on the willingness (ie: budget) to get gains no matter how big or small. Also might be worth it to some for the customization aspect of having something unique even if the mods did not have a monumental performance leap.

[jlw]

I had the opportunity to shoot the Ballistic Radio pistol. While the slide cuts are not something I would have considered, there was noticeably less muzzle flip on the pistol, and the trigger was absolutely amazing.

[Dr. No]

My jaw dropped when I learned their "tier 1 package" was almost 3000$ for a glock ... on top of the gun itself.

For that price you could have a full house open 2011 race gun.

[jlw]

My jaw dropped when I learned their "tier 1 package" was almost 3000$ for a glock ... on top of the gun itself.

For that price you could have a full house open 2011 race gun.

On the matter of their work, do you know where a price guide is available?

[Mr_White]

I like the gold barrel.

[ToddG]

My jaw dropped when I learned their "tier 1 package" was almost 3000$ for a glock ... on top of the gun itself.

http://i1.wp.com/allthingsd.com/files/2013/08/inconceivable.jpg

[Casual Friday]

I'll stick with the $500 muzzle flip.

[ToddG]

I'll stick with the $500 muzzle flip.

I genuinely laughed when I read that. :cool:

However, I think it's only fair to look at this from the opposite point of view. Some people want the benefits -- perceived or real -- that a $3k 1911 gives over a $750 1911. Why couldn't some people want the benefits -- perceived or real -- from a $3k SIG or Glock? The $3k is the same whether it's for a 1911 or a Glock. And there is no end to the number of people who are willing to pay $3k+ for 1911s. Look at the lead time from Wilson's Combat.

Things like slide lightening aren't magic nor are they innovative... people have been doing that for years and years. Heck, ever see a G34? But not a lot of people are customizing Glocks and SIGs and whatnot that way. So Salient has found a niche.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the same guy who ticked off a couple of well known internet celebrities when I said that spending $300 on a SIG trigger job was ludicrous. Like most folks I'd be hard pressed to justify that $300 in terms of performance improvement. So $3000???

But if someone wants to spend the money to wring an extra iota or two out of a P226 I say knock yourself out. Maybe some day it will be as common and popular as multi-thousand dollar 1911s...

[KevH]

When I pay $3k for a custom 1911 generally it has high quality (and expensive) parts installed, a lot of handwork fitting and blending them, hand checkering, hand polishing (slide flats and such) and other work performed.

Looking at the Mk25 they basically fitted a Bar-Sto barrel, lightened the slide, undercut the trigger guard, smoothed the action, slapped on some Trijicon sights and had some parts refinished.

Same extractor and other internals.

If someone has the money and wants to fork it over that is their business. I'm just curious if these modifications actually improve the gun.

I'm curious if a plain-jane 226R could perform just as well.

[Spr1]

Sigs are normally quite accurate, so the Barsto is for what?

And, lightened slides make for finicky beasts where the load and spring balance becomes super critical. Certainly not what I would want to count on for anything but a game.

Furthermore, and this is just me, if I decided I HAD to spend 3K+ to shoot Limited, I would be buying a 1911 pattern gun.

[ToddG]

When I pay $3k for a custom 1911 generally it has high quality (and expensive) parts installed, a lot of handwork fitting and blending them, hand checkering, hand polishing (slide flats and such) and other work performed.

Fair enough. What are other companies charging to do this level of "package" for Glocks & SIGs. That's probably a good place to start.


If someone has the money and wants to fork it over that is their business. I'm just curious if these modifications actually improve the gun.

I'm curious if a plain-jane 226R could perform just as well.

You and I both know plenty of people who'd say the same thing about a $3k Wilson compared to a box stock Colt. I wouldn't agree and I doubt you would, either.


Sigs are normally quite accurate, so the Barsto is for what?

Without seeing some before & after results I admit I'm skeptical of the Barsto as well given my experience with SIG. I remember Ernest Langdon literally telling people not to pay for a custom/fitted barrel when they would call him about SIG work because he found the stock barrels on average just as accurate. This is five shots from a P226ST in 357, box stock gun:

http://greent.com/webimg/groups/grp-357-win-125-fmj.jpg

I know Caleb turned in some amazing groups with a recent stock SIG, as well.


And, lightened slides make for finicky beasts where the load and spring balance becomes super critical. Certainly not what I would want to count on for anything but a game.

How finicky? The slide weight doesn't change over time. Once tuned (sprung) properly it shouldn't be any more problematic. I'd say JJ's recent test of the Salient SIG proved that.


Furthermore, and this is just me, if I decided I HAD to spend 3K+ to shoot Limited, I would be buying a 1911 pattern gun.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean there aren't reasonable people who'd choose otherwise.

Let's suppose I think I shoot SIGs better than any gun out there. If I'm willing to spend $3k on a 1911 and I think a SIG would serve me better then -- assuming there is an actual benefit to the work -- why not spend it on a custom SIG instead? This brings us back to KevH's first point which is that we need to know what the competition is charging for this same level of work. There's no point throwing away $3k if you can get the same benefit out of $300 or a $5 TW25B trigger job, of course.

[wmu12071]

So a $3000 gun is a glock 17 with a 17c slide, a $.25 trigger job, a stipple job, and a gold sharpied barrel???

[Chuck Haggard]

I don't know what it cost, but when I was at the Paulipalooza in Ohio I got to finger a Glock with the fish scale aggressive thing on the top of the slide. In one handed racking you could literally stick the top of the slide to the side of your thigh and effectively run the slide. I'd say that was a functional thing as well as looking pretty cool, but that would be an extremely limited pay off for what you are buying.

[John Hearne]

Whenever I see stuff like this, I think of the great phrase that Jeff Cooper coined - PII or Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments. To quote the man "This peculiarity lies in attributing importance to measurable deviations so small as to be meaningless....An increment may be termed inconsequential when it has no significant relationship to the purpose of the exercise."

Is there some advantage to the modifications - probably so. Are the gains offered by the modifications enough to matter - that is the real question. If this is an IPSC gun and you're going to win or lose a match by 0.10 second then the increments are probably not inconsequential. For shooting folks - probably not consequential. I'm not saying that living or dying by 0.10 second is inconsequential (especially if the person in question is you) but that winning or dying by 0.10 is probably indicative of some other massive systems failure and future performance is better addressed by fixing those problems rather than wringing everything out of a pistol.

[NETim]

For better or worse, I'm convinced I have to spend $2.5k or better on a 1911 just to get one that runs reliably. Maybe I could spend less and get a 1911 that I can rely on right out of the box. I don't know.

I simply want a gun that runs, with no hassles. (In this case a 1911.)

I hold no illusions that my Wilsons will somehow make me a better shooter though.

[justintime]

Isn't that why people buy 3k 1911s? I've been of the idea that anything less would be unreliable, where a glock or sig has a pretty good chance that it will run like a raped ape from the factory.

[BLR]

Isn't that why people buy 3k 1911s? I've been of the idea that anything less would be unreliable, where a glock or sig has a pretty good chance that it will run like a raped ape from the factory.

There are a host of ~ $1500 1911s that run, in my experience, quite well from the start.

Some of these are:

TRPs, MC Ops, Valors, Special Carry Combats, most of the Colt 5" line, and so on.

But the point is quite true, it takes more $$$ to make a good all steel gun than it does to injection mold it from nylon.

Mankind has been modifying, engraving, personalizing and tweeking their tools and weapons since time immemorial. Katanas, P51s, Abrams, battle axes, 1911s, and even Glocks.

If you could afford to have your weapons and tools personalized, you did.

It's my impression that it's only been recently that non-customized guns have been "cool."

I'm quite impressed and interested in Salient, in as much as I can be interested in spending coin on things that aren't 1911s and precision rifles.

[Casual Friday]

I genuinely laughed when I read that. :cool:

However, I think it's only fair to look at this from the opposite point of view. Some people want the benefits -- perceived or real -- that a $3k 1911 gives over a $750 1911. Why couldn't some people want the benefits -- perceived or real -- from a $3k SIG or Glock? The $3k is the same whether it's for a 1911 or a Glock. And there is no end to the number of people who are willing to pay $3k+ for 1911s. Look at the lead time from Wilson's Combat.

Things like slide lightening aren't magic nor are they innovative... people have been doing that for years and years. Heck, ever see a G34? But not a lot of people are customizing Glocks and SIGs and whatnot that way. So Salient has found a niche.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the same guy who ticked off a couple of well known internet celebrities when I said that spending $300 on a SIG trigger job was ludicrous. Like most folks I'd be hard pressed to justify that $300 in terms of performance improvement. So $3000???

But if someone wants to spend the money to wring an extra iota or two out of a P226 I say knock yourself out. Maybe some day it will be as common and popular as multi-thousand dollar 1911s...

I completely agree. Heck I have friends that think I'm nuts to put up the coin for a P30 "when a Glock, PPQ, or M&P will do the same thing for half the cost".

[justintime]

There are a host of ~ $1500 1911s that run, in my experience, quite well from the start.

Some of these are:

TRPs, MC Ops, Valors, Special Carry Combats, most of the Colt 5" line, and so on.

But the point is quite true, it takes more $$$ to make a good all steel gun than it does to injection mold it from nylon.

Mankind has been modifying, engraving, personalizing and tweeking their tools and weapons since time immemorial. Katanas, P51s, Abrams, battle axes, 1911s, and even Glocks.

If you could afford to have your weapons and tools personalized, you did.

It's my impression that it's only been recently that non-customized guns have been "cool."

I'm quite impressed and interested in Salient, in as much as I can be interested in spending coin on things that aren't 1911s and precision rifles.

Indeed, that's why up-top I mentioned that to some 3k would be worth it from the personalization standpoint. I don't know how many friends I have with 3k+ wheels on cars that are far less functional over a cheaper and lighter option.

[JV_]

If I wanted a faster running slide, I'd buy a 229 rather than a modified 226. The faster running 229 slide is noticeable, IMO.

Other than a trigger job, I can't see myself dumping any money in to custom gun work for Sigs/Glocks. For Sig trigger work, I'd go to Gray Guns over Salient. I don't have any data points that would lead me to believe that Salient does bad trigger work, but I think Gray Guns is far more established and respected.

[BLR]

Indeed, that's why up-top I mentioned that to some 3k would be worth it from the personalization standpoint. I don't know how many friends I have with 3k+ wheels on cars that are far less functional over a cheaper and lighter option.

Missed that!

Cheers

[jlw]

ToddG hits on an excellent point that people regularly pay similar money for custom built 1911s. I have shot Nighthawks, Wilson Combats, and the Salient MK25, and I was more impressed with the Salient than the others.

I am not likely to spend the money on any of the above as I can't wring the pull potential out of a free Glock.

If I were a Sig guy, I would spend a few hundred bucks to get a trigger as nice as that one on the Salient.

[Dr. No]

On the matter of their work, do you know where a price guide is available?

I had to call the factory.

[YVK]

I like the gold barrel.

It would go well with your gold slitted eyeglasses.


On a subject, I certainly hope that one day we'll get a readily available technology to objectify pure mechanical aspects, like rate of slide cycling, time of muzzle flip, slide's momentum, speed of trigger return etc. Till then, it is left to the subjectivity of human perception, where small changes are likely to be perceived mostly by advanced users only.

[PPGMD]

How finicky? The slide weight doesn't change over time. Once tuned (sprung) properly it shouldn't be any more problematic. I'd say JJ's recent test of the Salient SIG proved that.

Depends what you are going for. If you are looking for a gun with little muzzle flip and that returns to target every time quickly, that is extremely finicky. The people that tune those do it based on slide weight, springs (recoil and hammer), and the load. That is something that competitive shooters can do because they control the load either through reloading or by purchasing from a reliable reloader. If you are going to spend $3k, you should want to get the benefit of your $3k. I would be very wary of a smith that is claiming to do that without asking about the ammo you shoot, and even asking for some of your ammo to test with (I have no dealings with Salient so I don't know if they do that or not).

The problem is that a lot of people that are getting the work these days don't understand that. They spend the $3k because Haley and Costa have highly customized guns. But a fool and his money.

But then again these are things that those of us trying to get that last 0.1 seconds off our stage times consider. Though honestly, I don't mess with the springing of my guns too much.

[Trajan]

Glockworx/ZEV sells lightened slides for like $500. Drop a KKM or Wilson barrel in it ~$160, throw a ZEV trigger in there ~$150 and there you go. Cerakote the barrel if you want the bling bling.

My guess is the price is just due to perceived coolness. What Salient is doing brilliantly is attempting to sell Open guns to the tactical crowd.

I will laugh if in 30 years everyone who still runs Glocks (I'm assuming/hoping technology will improve past polymer framed striker fire browning guns) is running one of these.

The M1911A1 ran, why isn't anyone running those with modern sights on them? Perception probably plays a big role here too.

[JV_]

What Salient is doing brilliantly is attempting to sell Open guns to the tactical crowd.That was my initial thought, it's an open gun minus the optic.

[Spr1]

Originally Posted by ToddG
How finicky? The slide weight doesn't change over time. Once tuned (sprung) properly it shouldn't be any more problematic. I'd say JJ's recent test of the Salient SIG proved that.


Slide weight doesn't change over time, but springs change constantly, and each spring (including each magazine spring) changes differently over time. So the balancing act is shifted from more reliance on something that does not change, to things that do. I was not suggesting it does not run, but that the operating margin has been reduced.

[KevH]

What are other companies charging to do this level of "package" for Glocks & SIGs. That's probably a good place to start.

Zev performs similar work on Glocks for significantly less. Taran Butler will do the EXACT same grip stippling for $200. So I could probably build a Glock for half of what Salient charges with the exact same features for roughly half what they're charging, but it wouldn't say Salient on the slide.

I still love Sigs. I only own an early 90's 226 right now although I have a much more recent 228R frankengun on the way that should be here late January.

The only two guys I'd let tinker with those are Bruce Gray and Scott Folk (his old apprentice who currently works for Apex). I have no clue what they would charge for similar mods, but neither of them do their work for cheap.

[Dos Cylindros]

While I understand, and have spent $3,000 on a custom 1911 for some reason I can't see investing that in a Glock, M&P or the like. Considering the fact that the M&P and P30 are my primary duty/defense guns it would probably make way more sense to spend the money on those as opposed to a high end custom 1911 that I will never be used (by me) as a primary duty or defensive gun. But taking into account that the M& and P30 work fine for me as is, I suppose I would rather have multiple copies of the M&P and P30 as opposed to having one Salient built gun. Their guns certainly are very nice looking, but at this point in my life/career I just can't see making that investment for one gun.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I could not wring the performance from the gun that the $3,000 spent on the gun may get for me, so I'd rather spend it on instruction & practice.

It's nice...really nice...but, not for me.

[BN]

I went the custom gun route back in my early IPSC days. Never again. :(

Do you realize, for that money you could buy 6 Glocks and surely one of them would work. Or, you could buy 6 M&Ps and surely one of them would be accurate. LOL :)

[ToddG]

Slide weight doesn't change over time, but springs change constantly, and each spring (including each magazine spring) changes differently over time. So the balancing act is shifted from more reliance on something that does not change, to things that do. I was not suggesting it does not run, but that the operating margin has been reduced.

Why don't those spring changes affect a normal slide the same way (weigh?) they affect one that is an ounce lighter?

I'm genuinely curious because my Heirloom gun will have a substantially lightened slide and I haven't heard anyone -- including the gunsmith or a certain engineer I've discussed it with -- warn me that it's going to be more finicky.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Why don't those spring changes affect a normal slide the same way (weigh?) they affect one that is an ounce lighter?

I'm genuinely curious because my Heirloom gun will have a substantially lightened slide and I haven't heard anyone -- including the gunsmith or a certain engineer I've discussed it with -- warn me that it's going to be more finicky.

Why are you bringing knowledge of subject matter, engineering and physics into an internet discussion about guns?

Really, that's bad form.

[JAD]

.
but springs change constantly .

Not necessarily. A coil spring shouldn't lose a significant amount of force from cycle 2 to cycle 1 million, unless it's over stressed. Gun springs (recoil and mag springs, anyway -- I don't think the mainspring) are, but might not have to be.

[JV_]

A coil spring shouldn't lose a significant amount of force from cycle 2 to cycle 1 million, unless it's over stressed.
What's significant, and what causes it to be overstressed?

Why do we have recommended recoil spring changes ~5K for many guns? My M&P 9mm guns definitely needed springs every 5K, you could feel they'd lost a lot of force.

[JAD]

ISMI calls 10% significant, and I can dig that but I've seen way less change than that.

Recoil and magazine springs are horribly over stressed (compressed too much and in the case of the RS run at a really high force for the wire). Their designers, including St. Browning, chose for them to be so, given the life expectancy of the product and the idea that the RS could be a consumable, and given that it made other design choices possible. Doesn't have to be, though -- check out what Wilson's doing with flat wire, as a casual example.

[Spr1]

Why don't those spring changes affect a normal slide the same way (weigh?) they affect one that is an ounce lighter?

I'm genuinely curious because my Heirloom gun will have a substantially lightened slide and I haven't heard anyone -- including the gunsmith or a certain engineer I've discussed it with -- warn me that it's going to be more finicky.

Your Heirloom gun is a 9, correct? I would think that the lightened slide would make that gun more reliable, as the original slide weight/mass was optimized around more recoil energy.

Spring changes will affect the heavier slide gun the exact same way as a lighter slide just to a lesser degree as the springs make up less of the "equation". Perhaps an ounce is inconsequential. But isn't that about the difference between a G22 slide and a G17's? They used to use the same recoil spring.

While locked breach guns require less slide mass than a pure blow back operated gun, the mass is still important. Tweaking spring forces can mimic more mass within certain limits, but is not functionally identical in action.

When the cartridge detonates the slide and barrel begin moving backward. Resisting that, you have the inertia of that mass and the spring preload in battery. The spring rate is calculated to slow the slide to a level that will not excessively batter the frame when the slide goes to the limit of its travel. The stored energy in the spring then accelerates the slide forward (F=MA), The magazine spring began raising the next cartridge as the slide cleared the magazine stack. The magazine must present the cartridge before the slide has moved too far forward.

To deal with a given amount of recoil energy, the lighter the slide, the heavier the spring (example Colt Commander with a 18 lb spring vs. a Government model with a 16 - from the factory). I have never heard anyone argue that a Commander is as reliable as a Government model. Also, IIRC, a slightly reduced travel exacerbates the timing problems.

The problem typically comes in on the return to battery stroke. The lighter slide ends up with higher acceleration and velocity, making it easier to overrun the magazine. Each magazine has the potential to be different in terms of spring force.

Varying the preload in battery and total force can be used to speed up (eg. Trimming coils) or slow down unlocking as well. In the case of a full slide weight 9mm 1911, allowing the gun to unlock faster might be a functional advantage in terms of overcoming the drag of the magazine stack, etc.

I am not sure if I have explained this well, and hopefully if incorrectly, Bill will come by and slap me silly.

[LOKNLOD]

I'll stick with the $500 muzzle flip.

Spy photo of the forthcoming LOK-N-ROLL(tm) recoil mitigation system - the most effective way for a roll of hundos to keep you muzzle flip to a minimum.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/02/qy2ane7u.jpg

[JV_]

ISMI calls 10% significant, and I can dig that but I've seen way less change than that. With what tool do you measure the spring rate changes?

[JAD]

My application space isn't directly firearm related. I work with coil springs that range In coil diameter from 3 mm to 150μm, forces from 500 to 8 grams.

In my space we use custom tools for accelerated life sim and test. Force is a secondary consideration for us in HAST -- mostly because it isn't usually a failure mode. We measure force with a load cell on a custom platform either with a bushing and mandrel or in situ (if we don't mind -- or are more interested in -- the contribution of friction). I guess it's accurate to a 10th of a gram.

[BLR]

My application space isn't directly firearm related. I work with coil springs that range In coil diameter from 3 mm to 150μm, forces from 500 to 8 grams.

In my space we use custom tools for accelerated life sim and test. Force is a secondary consideration for us in HAST -- mostly because it isn't usually a failure mode. We measure force with a load cell on a custom platform either with a bushing and mandrel or in situ (if we don't mind -- or are more interested in -- the contribution of friction). I guess it's accurate to a 10th of a gram.


*cough*nerd*cough*

[JAD]

I thought I'd gone to the limits. I hadn't. The Engineers gave me an experience beyond limits... pain and pleasure, indivisible.

[Clyde from Carolina]

*cough*nerd*cough*

Man, talk about a pot calling a kettle...

Seriously, you're the smartest engineer guy I personally know and you managed to lose me (and then mercifully reel me back in) with a five minute convo on firearms finishes. I'd hate to talk with you about something really "science-y" and all. :D

[BLR]

Man, talk about a pot calling a kettle...

Seriously, you're the smartest engineer guy I personally know and you managed to lose me (and then mercifully reel me back in) with a five minute convo on firearms finishes. I'd hate to talk with you about something really "science-y" and all. :D

Pfffft

I've been know to keep women absolutely captivated in conversation. Captivated, I say.

[Pup town]

A couple of things-

-you can have all the real changes (slide lightening, trigger job,undercutting trigger guard) for a lot less from other smiths.

-the mods move you from Production to Limited, which makes me ask the following...

-who is actually sending their Glocks or Sigs to Salient? (Not many USPSA shooters, that's for sure). I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Tier Ones in the wild is actually very very small, not the counting the ones given to high profile trainers and even lesser known podcasters.

But I've underestimated Costa fanboys before, so there may be more fools out there that have parted with their money than I realize.

[ToddG]

I've been know to keep women absolutely captivated in conversation.

https://englishedithelp.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/words1.jpg?w=300&h=200

When you lock them in a closet and won't let them out until you're done explaining the importance of post heat treat grain direction in the steel of a 1911 slide that's not "captivated," it's just keeping them captive.

[ToddG]

-you can have all the real changes (slide lightening, trigger job,undercutting trigger guard) for a lot less from other smiths.

That's the key thing, I think. Then it comes down to quality of work and if the difference there is negligible then convincing people to pay you $3,000 for the same exact work your neighbor does for $500 makes you a heck of a salesman I suppose.


-the mods move you from Production to Limited, which makes me ask the following...

I don't think they're aiming at the gamer market. I'm guessing Chris Costa alone has more FB followers than USPSA has members.


-who is actually sending their Glocks or Sigs to Salient? (Not many USPSA shooters, that's for sure). I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Tier Ones in the wild is actually very very small, not the counting the ones given to high profile trainers

I'm not sure that's a proper gauge though. How many people work at Salient? What is their production capacity and how close to it (or far from it) are they? Is there a wait for their services? If they can only build two dozen guns a year and they get orders for 30 each year economics 101 tells us they should raise their price further.


and even lesser known podcasters.

Well known enough to get a free $3,000 gun, twenty-five thousand rounds of ammo, accessories, professional video and photography work, etc...

[PPGMD]

I don't think they're aiming at the gamer market. I'm guessing Chris Costa alone has more FB followers than USPSA has members.

It is true that Costa has more likes than USPSA has members but it costs nothing to like his profile.

OTOH Salient used to be a gamer company, they were well known for their three gun shotguns, but lesser known for their pistol work since they didn't seem to concentrate on the 2011.

[Nephrology]

Pfffft

I've been know to keep women absolutely captivated in conversation. Captivated, I say.

When I got started talking about biology my ex girlfriend used to throw cheetos at me until I stopped.

Of course, she then went on to enter Cornell's Mathematics PhD program. I think she was just jealous that I got to wear a white lab coat.

[PPGMD]

I think she was just jealous that I got to wear a white lab coat.

That is easily remedied, let her be the doctor to give you a "check up" at night.

[Default.mp3]

Necro, but I figured this was relevant: http://www.breachbangclear.com/salient-arms-declares-bankruptcy/

[Peally]

What are we going to do now for full-retard full throttle 100% tier 0 derp guns? Who doesn't want a $250 M&P shield that's been unnecessarily fucked around with for $3000 bucks?

I weep.

[LittleLebowski]

What are we going to do now for full-retard full throttle 100% tier 0 derp guns? Who doesn't want a $250 M&P shield that's been unnecessarily fucked around with for $3000 bucks?

I weep.

Dremel I haz. Worry, you should not.

[Default.mp3]

What are we going to do now for full-retard full throttle 100% tier 0 derp guns? Who doesn't want a $250 M&P shield that's been unnecessarily fucked around with for $3000 bucks?

I weep.Dry your tears, the article has been updated:

Edit: I was able to establish comms with Adrian Chavez at Salient shortly after this original article went live (perhaps not surprisingly) — regarding an SAI bankruptcy, he is advising nothing could be further from the truth. The confusion stems from an original DBA (Doing Business As) affiliated with Salient Security Services of California. That Salient Arms International (of California), a part of Salient Security Services, has been inactive for three years now, and has nothing to do with the current, active, incarnation of the company: Salient Arms International Inc., of the State of Nevada, which according to public record has been a Nevada based corporation since May of 2015.

Rumors of a bankruptcy, he says, are far from the truth. By his description, this information likely stems from certain people trying to drive a specific narrative.

Salient Security Services, a long dormant organization, is declaring bankruptcy, but this, according to Chavez, is part of a “…tidying up process.” This is, he advises, a calculated step necessitated by an evolution that will be bringing significant changes to Salient and others in the firearms/tactical industry very soon.

“It’s not even the same company,” Chavez says. “It has nothing to do with firearms, or the company we’ve now been operating for years.”

[orionz06]

Dry your tears, the article has been updated:

I was really looking forward to bitching about a gun I was never gonna buy with others who were never gonna buy one either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GCBHM]

Costa has one, Kyle Lamb has one, so does Jason Falla and some other big name trainers and industry folks. Ballistic Radio just ran a Sig Mk25 done up by them for 25k rounds.

So what I have gathered about Salient is they took some of the mods done by Taran Butler (no longer associated with them) and other 3-gunners (slide lightening, grip mods and such) and apply them along with some nice finishes and put them into the hands of known folks for free so they get some great marketing and then charge consumers a metric ton for them.

The question is do these mods really make the gun run any better or more comfortable for the shooters or are they just very expensive added glitz?

Are they truly innovative and worth it or a passing fad?

I'm not sure these kids of modifications can be considered "innovative" in the truest sense of the word. Innovative is what JMB did with the 1911 and BHP or what Gaston Glock did with the Glock 17. Modifications to existing designs, which only enhance the existing design, really isn't innovative. As to whether or not the enhancements are worth it, I believe that is up to the individual. For me the answer is no. For others the answer is clearly yes. Not that I wouldn't mind having an enhanced model like these, but it isn't worth it to me to pay the extra money for it. I'm not a shooting snob or enhancement junkie, though. I am a sold-out fan of the factory Glock triggers, but I do undercut the trigger guards and install good sights on mine; however, those are really the only enhancements I make. I had a guy at my LGS show me his Salient Glock 19 that he paid nearly $2500 for, and it was super nice, but I would NEVER pay $2500 for a "GLOCK". That, to me, is insane.

[Peally]

Dremel I haz. Worry, you should not.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/574/takemymoney.jpg

[SilentSc0rch]

Dry your tears, the article has been updated:

That being said, it was believable that they went under. I haven't seen or heard anything from Salient ever since Agency Arms made it big. I guess I just assumed that Agency stole all the tactical frat boy fan-base from them.

[LockedBreech]

I imagine having $3,000 to play with and choosing to spend it on one of these over a Wilson Combat 1911 or a Nighthawk Hi-Power has got to be the very definition of buyer's remorse. Like winning a car and choosing a PT Cruiser.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I imagine having $3,000 to play with and choosing to spend it on one of these over a Wilson Combat 1911 or a Nighthawk Hi-Power has got to be the very definition of buyer's remorse. Like winning a car and choosing a PT Cruiser.

A local radio host did exactly that about 15 years ago here.

He admitted to it on air the other day after MUCH badgering from co-hosts and for the entire rest of the day, all the calls they got were people phoning in to laugh at him.

[car541]

I don't care how well it shoots, if you are going to sell a SIG P226 for 3 grand, it need some fancier grips. Skip the soldering iron on the factory plastics and set a 10K gold Aztec calendar into some sterling silver, then we can talk.

what's the point of a $3000 dollar gun with no real difference in performance other that to demonstrate that you can throw down 3 grand on a whim and not care?

It is the firearms equivalent of standing in a bar swigging from a bottle of Dom Perigion (I assume that is misspelled, but i don't care)

By the way does my custom, pre weathered, battle worn finish make me look like an operator?:p

[Coal Train]

I don't care how well it shoots, if you are going to sell a SIG P226 for 3 grand, it need some fancier grips. Skip the soldering iron on the factory plastics and set a 10K gold Aztec calendar into some sterling silver, then we can talk.p

How about diamonds and sapphires instead of gold?

[orionz06]

I don't care how well it shoots, if you are going to sell a SIG P226 for 3 grand, it need some fancier grips. Skip the soldering iron on the factory plastics and set a 10K gold Aztec calendar into some sterling silver, then we can talk.

what's the point of a $3000 dollar gun with no real difference in performance other that to demonstrate that you can throw down 3 grand on a whim and not care?

It is the firearms equivalent of standing in a bar swigging from a bottle of Dom Perigion (I assume that is misspelled, but i don't care)

By the way does my custom, pre weathered, battle worn finish make me look like an operator?:p

To some people the overall package is what they want, not more function and less looks. Right, wrong, or indifferent that's just how things are. I think the fact that other more accepted shops are now doing similar things should be telling enough.

[GardoneVT]

what's the point of a $3000 dollar gun with no real difference in performance ....


Status symbol. Having a Salient makes you the range god. You can't show off skill and dry fire practice,but you can show off a gold barrel.

Being honest,even established custom shops primarily cater to that market. I realize most folks here run their Wilson Combats ,Nighthawks and whatnot -but most of their normal customers park the $3,000 custom gun in the back of the safe for "show and tell" and carry the Glock 43,if they carry at all.

[orionz06]

Status symbol. Having a Salient makes you the range god. You can't show off skill and dry fire practice,but you can show off a gold barrel.

It's not even that, it's just what a large chunk of the market views as cool shit and people like having cool shit. A smaller portion of the shooting community has been marketed at to believe that Wilson is cooler shit and that's why they gravitate towards Wilson. Some people buy Jordan's, others buy Beats headphones, and in our world it's Glocks worked over that way.

[GardoneVT]

It's not even that, it's just what a large chunk of the market views as cool shit and people like having cool shit. A smaller portion of the shooting community has been marketed at to believe that Wilson is cooler shit and that's why they gravitate towards Wilson. Some people buy Jordan's, others buy Beats headphones, and in our world it's Glocks worked over that way.

Its more nuanced then just straight up marketing.

I have a Wilson Combat Beretta next to me as I type this. It started out life in my collection as an abused pistol,and Wilsons work improved the gun. They didn't disable any safeties or cut the slide. The product I got back is both aesthetically and functionally better then the gun I sent down,and I can (and have) run this pistol without worry it'll suddenly go full auto or develop some other defect.

That's not marketing; it's just old school custom work quality. I've never seen Wilson Combat in a Transformers movie,because they don't need that exposure. Their work quality is enough of an advertisement,as is others like Nighthawk Custom.

Salient? It's all Instagram and flash. They don't do anything to a Glock Danny Dremel can't do on his kitchen table for far less money,including monkeying with the Glock safeties and triggers.

[45dotACP]

Maybe this is all positive? People are realizing the best part about guns is shooting them better not making them look kewl?

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[orionz06]

Its more nuanced then just straight up marketing.

I have a Wilson Combat Beretta next to me as I type this. It started out life in my collection as an abused pistol,and Wilsons work improved the gun. They didn't disable any safeties or cut the slide. The product I got back is both aesthetically and functionally better then the gun I sent down,and I can (and have) run this pistol without worry it'll suddenly go full auto or develop some other defect.

That's not marketing; it's just old school custom work quality. I've never seen Wilson Combat in a Transformers movie,because they don't need that exposure. Their work quality is enough of an advertisement,as is others like Nighthawk Custom.

Salient? It's all Instagram and flash. They don't do anything to a Glock Danny Dremel can't do on his kitchen table for far less money,including monkeying with the Glock safeties and triggers.

There is more to gain by working on the metal guns, no denying that, but that doesn't mean dick to lots of people. Lots of people aren't you, they're not me, they're not shooters in the sense that we care about. They make noise and they use cool shit to make noise with.

As for what Salient does compared to what someone can do on their counter isn't really fair... You can do a lot of shit to other guns that way too. But having actually handled Salient pistols their grip work is nicer than most kitchen table jobs and really I prefer it to many other "professional" plastic melters as well. I don't own one, I don't value their work as they do.

[GardoneVT]

http://i.imgur.com/GqjVNXN.jpg

Indeed,Danny Dremel might actually clean up the locktite when he jacks up a slide.