HK Striker Fired [Archive] - pistol-forum.com

UNK

12-29-2013, 03:40 PM

I saw this posted in another thread by Todd G and thought it would make a great new thread. So anybody have any info on this product?

The major delay in the HK striker gun has been trying to get the production cost down to the point where it can be more competitive price-wise with Glock. That's not to say they'll flush quality down the toilet nor will the gun necessarily be the same price as a Glock, just that they know a $900 SFA isn't going to accomplish what they want in the marketplace.

JodyH

12-29-2013, 03:52 PM

Probably end up looking exactly like a Walther PPQ.
I just hope they maintain mag compatibility with the USPc/P2000 or the P30.

With the USBP contract expiring H&K needs a striker fired pistol to compete with the M&P.
I know several of the USBP/FLETC firearms guys who are pushing hard for the M&P over renewing the P2000 contract.
A striker fired pistol with the same profile (holster compatibility) as the P2000 that takes the same mags might be an advantage in maintaining that contract.

UNK

12-29-2013, 03:57 PM

Dos Cylindros

12-29-2013, 04:03 PM

I certainly hope they are smart enough to make sure the new gun (whenever it comes) will have the same mags as the P30. I hope this gun comes to life much sooner than I anticipate it really will.

TheTrevor

12-29-2013, 04:05 PM

That would be a significant cost reduction. I wonder if it would be possible to just update the trigger group.

Sure. It's called the LEM system.

In all seriousness, that's as close as you're going to get to striker-type action with the HK modular action.

UNK

12-29-2013, 04:05 PM

TheTrevor

12-29-2013, 04:12 PM

I certainly hope they are smart enough to make sure the new gun (whenever it comes) will have the same mags as the P30. I hope this gun comes to life much sooner than I anticipate it really will.

I agree. Based on how HK standardized on the USP Compact magazine design for the P30 and P2k families, and the advantage of selling into their installed base of users with the "no new mags/pouches" argument, I think there's hope that they will do the right thing.

The real question is whether Gunter in Germany will be able to resist the temptation to tinker with critical slide/trigger-guard dimensions so the new SFA gun will fit into P2000 holsters...

ToddG

12-29-2013, 04:18 PM

CBP just has some guys who want something new & shiny. The HKs have been serving them well and while I'm sure there are some that are worn out the majority probably haven't reached the point of needing major maintenance much more replacement. They're reliable, accurate, durable, safe, and have a consistent trigger pull (which has been a big INS/BP thing since long before DHS existed). The M&P will, at best, deliver the same qualities at the cost of all new guns, mags, holsters, spare parts, retraining, qualification, etc.

If you've never been part of a major agency firearm procurement before it would probably make your head spin to know how most of them progress. But it almost always starts out with, "some guns who want something new & shiny."

ToddG

12-29-2013, 04:19 PM

The real question is whether Gunter in Germany will be able to resist the temptation to tinker with critical slide/trigger-guard dimensions so the new SFA gun will fit into P2000 holsters...

OTOH, if they keep the same frame and slide profile they cannot address the screams about "high bore axis!"

Dos Cylindros

12-29-2013, 04:21 PM

It would seem to me it would have to address lower round count if its going head to head with S&W or Glock.

For me, the round count is not an issue. It's my opinion that Glock (and others) cram too many rounds into a given space resulting in mags that are difficult to seat on a closed slide along with other issues. HK mags do not suffer from these issues and they are the better for it in my humble opinion. A difference of two rounds is a non issue for me.

TheTrevor

12-29-2013, 04:22 PM

OTOH, if they keep the same frame and slide profile they cannot address the screams about "high bore axis!"

I swear, there are people who would complain about bore axis if you handed them a Chiappa Rhino.

JSGlock34

12-29-2013, 04:26 PM

See the Striker P30X (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9547-Striker-P30X) thread for prior discussions on this topic.

I'm certainly interested in seeing what HK might introduce, but I wonder if a striker fired P30 wouldn't end up looking a lot like a Walter PPQ M1.

BLR

12-29-2013, 04:33 PM

Why such love for a striker fired HK?

JodyH

12-29-2013, 04:39 PM

Why such love for a striker fired HK?
No love from me, I'd rather have a LEM hammer for AIWB.
But...
If I was responsible for maintaining a few hundred (or thousand) pistols I would vote for striker fired for the simple reason that they are usually much easier to detail strip and replace parts in.
Of course I would NOT bet on H&K simplifying things, that's just not their style.

Casual Friday

12-29-2013, 04:42 PM

Soooo does this mean we will see an HK Gadget?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

UNK

12-29-2013, 04:51 PM

OTOH, if they keep the same frame and slide profile they cannot address the screams about "high bore axis!"
I shot a glock 19 an M&P full size and the P30 side by side. I thought it was the softest shooting 9mm I have ever shot and definitely the softest of those three..

Salamander

12-29-2013, 04:59 PM

No love from me, I'd rather have a LEM hammer for AIWB.

Of course I would NOT bet on H&K simplifying things, that's just not their style.

Yes and no. Externally, HK's are wonderfully minimalist, and field stripping is as quick and easy as any. It's on the inside that the damn things are built like a Swiss watch... kind of the Leica approach to design.

UNK

12-29-2013, 04:59 PM

Why such love for a striker fired HK?

For me I like my trigger like a long 1911. Way out and little take up. The P30 is the exact opposite. And then look at the threads of people learning the trigger. It has been my impression that some people find it more difficult to learn than say a Glock trigger.

UNK

12-29-2013, 05:01 PM

A gadget would take care of the hammer issue nicely.

GJM

12-29-2013, 05:25 PM

While compatibility with existing magazines and holsters would be nice, and I have plenty of P30 mags and holsters, anyone who has remodeled a house knows it is generally less expensive with a better outcome to build new than reuse existing structures.

My hope is that HK used a clean sheet of paper design philosophy, and brings us something that beats the crap out of every M&P and Glock, from an accuracy and reliability perspective, but also includes something that has been lacking in most HK pistols lately -- a great trigger. I think the market would pay a premium for this.

LOKNLOD

12-29-2013, 05:58 PM

Soooo does this mean we will see an HK Gadget?

Sure, it'll look a lot more like an RMA tag that says "send me a P30 instead" than the Glock version, though.

Polecat

12-29-2013, 09:29 PM

I think it is time for new design by HK. Heck the USP is gettin' dated, as is the P2000. The P2000/3000 series would be waaayyy better if they had kept the reset on the original USP LEM guns, as it is markedly shorter. I can easily tell the difference between the two.

I am excited about forthcoming designs from several manufactures. Specifically, Wilhelm Bubits kinda dropped off the forums as he is supposedly working on something novel. He used to be active on Steyrclub wherein he alluded to a design he is working on that will offer a totally modular design where one frame can be "transformed" into different sizes. i.e. you could change the length of the recoil housing and fit a shorter upper, or you could make the grip sub/compact/fullsize by just changing the grip housing and using an appropriately sized magazine. I have no clue which company he is designing this for, time will tell.

Dave

Saym16

12-29-2013, 11:03 PM

I would probably buy a striker fired HK/ ( I love shooting the PPQ). plus one on the mag compatibility also.

GJM

12-30-2013, 10:12 AM

Isn't the primary idea with this intro, for HK to introduce a striker product that attracts new users, in big numbers, with a heavy emphasis on LE, that would have been unlikely to buy the P30/2000 either because of price or not being a striker design? If HK only sells this new striker pistol to current P30 and P2000 owners, I believe it will be a failure relative to their expectations.

DamonL

12-30-2013, 10:19 AM

I think Todd nailed it when he said HK wants to compete with Glock, which also means, the S&W M&P. Those are two very popular pistols. But it they won't get anywhere if the price is much higher than Glock or S&W. If they can get into that market, they will make money in the commercial and LE/Mil markets.

Magic_Salad0892

12-30-2013, 02:15 PM

How much lols would be had if they brought back the squeeze cocker?

YVK

12-30-2013, 02:41 PM

How much lols would be had if they brought back the squeeze cocker?

I don't think that's likely, but I'll take my lols if it comes with PPQs bore axis, early MP trigger quality, and reset as long as one on the P7.

Magic_Salad0892

12-30-2013, 06:35 PM

I don't think that's likely, but I'll take my lols if it comes with PPQs bore axis, early MP trigger quality, and reset as long as one on the P7.

When you say "MP" do you mean M&P? And didn't early M&P triggers suck tons of balls?

And I also have never heard of the P7 having a long reset. Why would that be desirable?

JMorse

12-30-2013, 07:33 PM

Forgive me, as I'm a total noob. So, in reddit "EIL5" terms, what's the benefit of a striker pistol?

WDW

12-30-2013, 07:38 PM

Forgive me, as I'm a total noob. So, in reddit "EIL5" terms, what's the benefit of a striker pistol?

There are several perceived benefits...
1. The internal mechanism is usually simpler & requires less maintenance
2. Fewer parts to break
3. Lighter, consistent trigger weight/pull
4. Fewer open spaces to allow debris/mud/dust to gunk up the gun
5. No hammer to snag on cover garment

JMorse

12-30-2013, 07:54 PM

Thanks! I appreciate it.

ToddG

12-30-2013, 08:07 PM

There are several perceived benefits...
1. The internal mechanism is usually simpler & requires less maintenance
2. Fewer parts to break
3. Lighter, consistent trigger weight/pull
4. Fewer open spaces to allow debris/mud/dust to gunk up the gun
5. No hammer to snag on cover garment

I know you said perceived but that list gave me heartburn.

WDW

12-30-2013, 08:38 PM

I know you said perceived but that list gave me heartburn.

Is possible better? I know 99.9% of the time a hammer gun is just as good, just trying to come up with some possibles....

Just out of curiosity, what on my list is so out of the realm of possibility? I know you're quite aware of the smorgasbord of springs that make a Sig P series hammer go back & forth. Also, have you ever seen/had a glove get caught in a hammer fired gun, rendering it useless? Glocks don't have those issues. Not better, per se, just different.

YVK

12-30-2013, 08:40 PM

When you say "MP" do you mean M&P? And didn't early M&P triggers suck tons of balls?

And I also have never heard of the P7 having a long reset. Why would that be desirable?

Yes, I meant M&P.

I was being sarcastic. You read all these excited threads on forums and people proclaiming buying it sight unseen, you'd think "striker fired" is synonymous with low bore and good trigger. I gave real examples to the contrary, and I won't be surprised this striker thingy will not be what fancrowd expects it to be.

Casual Friday

12-30-2013, 09:01 PM

and I won't be surprised this striker thingy will not be what fancrowd expects it to be.

Probably not, but like MLK Jr, I have a dream.

I won't be a beta tester for it though. I'll wait a few years, long after the initial sticker shock of the P30 V1 has worn off.

ToddG

12-30-2013, 09:05 PM

Is possible better? I know 99.9% of the time a hammer gun is just as good, just trying to come up with some possibles....

Sorry if I was unclear. My point was that even though you might not personally hold those things as true it just makes me roll my eyes because there are people who do.

1. The internal mechanism is usually simpler & requires less maintenance

That's awesome in theory. In practice what is the actual difference in maintenance? HK P30, a truly complicated hammer fired pistol, doesn't need to be detail stripped for 25k rounds and requires no parts replacement within the time (though admittedly a lot of us have discovered that the trigger return springs, especially the heavier LEM spring, don't always make it that far).

2. Fewer parts to break

Again, sounds good in theory but in practice are those parts actually breaking? My car has orders of magnitude more parts but they're not breaking.

3. Lighter, consistent trigger weight/pull

My 1911 has a lighter, equally consistent trigger pull than most Glocks. A P30 light LEM has a trigger pull just as consistent and probably lighter than a typical (standard connector, standard trigger spring) Glock.

4. Fewer open spaces to allow debris/mud/dust to gunk up the gun

Again that's begging the question. The suggestion is that hammer fired guns get "gunked up" but I've yet to see evidence of such in any number of mil spec and similar LE reliability tests.

5. No hammer to snag on cover garment

I've never had a hammer snag my clothes and affect my draw. Even if that's a problem, plenty of hammer-fired guns are available with bobbed hammers.

Magic_Salad0892

12-30-2013, 09:59 PM

Yes, I meant M&P.

I was being sarcastic. You read all these excited threads on forums and people proclaiming buying it sight unseen, you'd think "striker fired" is synonymous with low bore and good trigger. I gave real examples to the contrary, and I won't be surprised this striker thingy will not be what fancrowd expects it to be.

Sorry. Usually I'm good at detecting sarcasm. Lol.

Greg Bell

12-31-2013, 03:48 PM

4. Fewer open spaces to allow debris/mud/dust to gunk up the gun
Again that's begging the question. The suggestion is that hammer fired guns get "gunked up" but I've yet to see evidence of such in any number of mil spec and similar LE reliability tests.

In fact, it appears to me that hammer guns are much less sensitive to dirt and dust.

LSP972

12-31-2013, 04:07 PM

I know you said perceived but that list gave me heartburn.

He left out "lower bore axis"…

.

LSP972

12-31-2013, 04:16 PM

I won't be surprised this striker thingy will not be what fancrowd expects it to be.

Most of the fancrowd have no idea WHAT to expect. On the one hand, we're told a P30SK is the surprise; in the next breath, no, its a striker-fired 9mm service pistol. Hear the yawns? Most civilian fancrowd members want the same thing from HK that Glock fanbois want from Herr Gaston; a single stack, compact 9mm piece for concealed carry. Only the wildest dreamer actually even dares to hope for that from HK; but Glock just might deliver.

Then again, Jim Schatz noted, in passing, that whatever it was had encountered some snags/development difficulties/whatever, and would NOT be premiering at S.H.O.T. 2014.

Well, shucks. So much for breathless anticipation…

.

Wendell

12-31-2013, 04:24 PM

The suggestion is that hammer fired guns get "gunked up" but I've yet to see evidence of such in any number of mil spec and similar LE reliability tests.

In fact, it appears to me that hammer guns are much less sensitive to dirt and dust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT9N8gw5Ch0

(Just one data point.)

JodyH

12-31-2013, 05:39 PM

Most of the fancrowd have no idea WHAT to expect. On the one hand, we're told a P30SK is the surprise; in the next breath, no, its a striker-fired 9mm service pistol.
Striker fired P30SK
*poof* mind blown

Greg Bell

12-31-2013, 06:39 PM

I may be wrong, but I think one of the primary reasons guns like the HK45c are popular with harsh-environment types is the fact that hammer designs have more reliable ignition.

BoppaBear

12-31-2013, 07:34 PM

Striker fired P30SK
*poof* mind blown

Whoa, whoa, whoa...that's crazy talk.

It's like Frankengun got drunk on New Years and hooked up with the lonely Glock in the corner.

Urban_Redneck

01-01-2014, 08:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT9N8gw5Ch0

(Just one data point.)

What does this video mean to those of us who don't field strip pistols during sandstorms?

LSP972

01-01-2014, 09:25 AM

What does this video mean to those of us who don't field strip pistols during sandstorms?

Exactly. While there is something to it (plenty of verifiable anecdotes around dealing with certain guns choked by the fine sand/dust of the third world), I live in south Louisiana… and we're fresh out of quantities of sand.

"Torture tests" give me gas.

.

ToddG

01-01-2014, 09:52 AM

I'm still trying to figure out why he needed a knife to put the 1911 back together.

How about throwing a 1911 and a Glock into an oven at 300 degrees? Because that will prove something!

I can damage a Glock frame with an emory board. OMG TEOTWAWKI!

Don't get me wrong, I do get the idea behind torture tests. People want to know that their gear will survive everything they can throw at it in a worst case scenario. But once the tests go from measuring something that could happen to measuring something that wouldn't (e.g., field stripped in a sandstorm) it gets silly.

Chuck Whitlock

01-01-2014, 11:25 AM

I can improve a Glock frame with an emory board.

FIFY

Trajan

01-01-2014, 02:52 PM

I may be wrong, but I think one of the primary reasons guns like the HK45c are popular with harsh-environment types is the fact that hammer designs have more reliable ignition.
Wasn't the HK45CT adopted simply as a replacement for the MK23? In other words, so the users could have a suppressed .45 option as opposed to the standard 9mm pistols (no idea what that unit's standard pistol is, heard everything from 226 to G19) they were currently using?

I'm still trying to figure out why he needed a knife to put the 1911 back together.

How about throwing a 1911 and a Glock into an oven at 300 degrees? Because that will prove something!

I can damage a Glock frame with an emory board. OMG TEOTWAWKI!

Don't get me wrong, I do get the idea behind torture tests. People want to know that their gear will survive everything they can throw at it in a worst case scenario. But once the tests go from measuring something that could happen to measuring something that wouldn't (e.g., field stripped in a sandstorm) it gets silly.

It's a perfectly valid test for military users. Almost any gun can handle sitting in kydex on your belt all day with a little lint and deodorant getting on it. Virtually every gun we use were built for a military contract of some sort.

I'm excited to see new things. Probably won't buy one as it won't do anything a Glock can't do, but it will be interesting none the less.

YVK

01-01-2014, 03:35 PM

It's a perfectly valid test for military users.

Taking a gun down to small parts and actively dipping them in sand before reassembly is a perfectly valid test?

I can see how burying a loaded gun, or dumping sand inside a holster is. This stuff above looks nonsensical to me.

Dos Cylindros

01-01-2014, 04:48 PM

Taking a gun down to small parts and actively dipping them in sand before reassembly is a perfectly valid test?

I can see how burying a loaded gun, or dumping sand inside a holster is. This stuff above looks nonsensical to me.

I agree %100. Even assuming you had field stripped your gun for maintenance in a sandy environment and dropped the parts you would be a fool to assemble the pistol and rely on it without getting rid of most of the sand. Dropping the gun in the sand is one thing, stripping the gun down and coating everything in san is quite another. In my mind this test is the equivalent of taking the engine in your car totally apart, coating everything in sand and seeing how long it will run. It's just not a realistic or practical test of what it was designed to do.

I really hope for a striker fired HK soon. My main reason is that I want HK quality, but I don't want to devote the time to stay proficient with two different trigger systems as I do right now. It's not a huge deal for me to bounce back and forth between my duty M&P and my off duty P30, but a striker fired HK would make it that much less time consuming.

farscott

01-01-2014, 05:20 PM

Scooping the sand into the receiver when the pistols are field-stripped did not make sense to me as part of a torture test. Of course, I struggled with the concept of burying the field-stripped pistols in sand, kicking more sand onto/into them, and thinking that is a valid torture test. Not many people I know carry their pistols stripped for cleaning. I guess that is Condition -1 carry. For them, I guess that is a valid torture test.

Did anyone else cringe when the empty guns were cycled by hand? It sounded horrible and just reeks of abuse. Their guns, not mine, so their call.

Trajan

01-01-2014, 07:25 PM

Taking a gun down to small parts and actively dipping them in sand before reassembly is a perfectly valid test?

I can see how burying a loaded gun, or dumping sand inside a holster is. This stuff above looks nonsensical to me.

Is it 100% realistic? No. Is it a test of "worst case scenario"? Yes.

You never know how much BS you're going to get into your gun, might as well test it with the maximum possible.

Kyle Reese

01-01-2014, 07:29 PM

It's a perfectly valid test for military users. Almost any gun can handle sitting in kydex on your belt all day with a little lint and deodorant getting on it.

Outside of the SOCOM umbrella, you just described how most military handguns are carried on a daily basis, even downrange.

YVK

01-01-2014, 08:42 PM

Is it a test of "worst case scenario"? Yes.

You never know how much BS you're going to get into your gun, might as well test it with the maximum possible.

I am having a hard time foreseeing this worst case scenario. If I have time to strip gun up and down, I have time to wipe the sand away.

Problem with "max possible" stressors is that they are often artificial and you'll always get to a point of overwhelming any system.

Another problem is that somebody will do a similar experiment and find opposite results. Many years ago Vickers stuffed four holstered 0.45 ACP guns with sand. G21 failed the worst. Now what?

Alaskapopo

01-01-2014, 08:57 PM

I don't care if it is striker fired or not but if HK would come out with a good trigger pull for their hand guns it would be great.
Pat

Trajan

01-01-2014, 09:39 PM

I am having a hard time foreseeing this worst case scenario. If I have time to strip gun up and down, I have time to wipe the sand away.

Problem with "max possible" stressors is that they are often artificial and you'll always get to a point of overwhelming any system.

Another problem is that somebody will do a similar experiment and find opposite results. Many years ago Vickers stuffed four holstered 0.45 ACP guns with sand. G21 failed the worst. Now what?

I'm not talking about stripping down the gun, but this guy, by stripping the gun down, got the maximum possible amount of dirt into the gun, as a worst case scenario.

Then the G21 was the least reliable in such an environment. That video was a G23 according to the description. IIRC, LAV only recommends the G17 and 19.

GJM

01-01-2014, 09:43 PM

IIRC, LAV only recommends the G17 and 19.

I think he is also fond of the Glock 20 as a woods gun.

YVK

01-01-2014, 10:11 PM

I'm not talking about stripping down the gun, but this guy, by stripping the gun down, got the maximum possible amount of dirt into the gun, as a worst case scenario.

That's what I mean by artificial stressors. Is it possible that that much sand can make it inside a properly assembled gun; at what point are we way over what's realistic?

Consider testing for alternative properties like heat resistance. I think polymer frame will melt sooner, but you can get to a temp when steel will too melt. 1911 is a winner that way, but who gives a damn if stressor is unrealistic?

Mind you, I don't care which one of the two is more sand resistant, and I actually think Glock is. I just don't agree with the methodology above.

ToddG

01-01-2014, 10:18 PM

Is it 100% realistic? No. Is it a test of "worst case scenario"? Yes.

If your worst case scenario isn't realistic, then it's not really a worst case scenario. It's a fantasy. I don't care how my gun works under fantasy conditions.

I could pour sand in my gas tank, too, but that doesn't tell me anything about how my car will run in a desert.

GJM

01-01-2014, 10:53 PM

I do think there is something between purposefully packing the inside of your pistol with sand and merely testing lint inside a kydex holster. Not that I am doing SOCOM stuff, but in a normal year, I routinely expose my open carried pistol to rain, snow, dirt, fall into streams, get game blood on it, etc. I would be interested in seeing a variety of testing, ranging from suburban concealed carry exposure (meaning almost no exposure), to merely wet and dirty, to full on stuff representing a worst case scenario.

Drang

01-02-2014, 03:06 AM

If your worst case scenario isn't realistic, then it's not really a worst case scenario.
Maybe not, but destructive testing (not being discussed, I know) can teach you all kinds of things you wouldn't learn any other way.

I could pour sand in my gas tank, too, but that doesn't tell me anything about how my car will run in a desert.
But it might tell you something about the filtration and fuel systems.

Crow Hunter

01-02-2014, 08:27 AM

If your worst case scenario isn't realistic, then it's not really a worst case scenario. It's a fantasy. I don't care how my gun works under fantasy conditions.

I could pour sand in my gas tank, too, but that doesn't tell me anything about how my car will run in a desert.

I beg to differ on this.

I do that type of stuff for a living.

You can't actually create a "realistic" test. Because you can't "control" reality. The only way you can get meaningful comparison data is to have a controllable test. Which usually means it won't be realistic, but the point is the conditions are controlled and therefore is repeatable and can be used across multiple tests.

For instance, it isn't realistic that the product that I design and test would be hit with a specifically weighted yellow pine 2X4 fired from an air cannon at 55 FPS and alway hit in exactly the same place every time. That is extremely unlikely to happen in real life, but becaue it is a controlled and repeatable test it can be used to compare Product A to Product B or Product B Rev 1.0 to Product B Rev 2.0 and hopefully get a meaningful result. (Plus it is a lot of fun to do.;))

Very similar to using Gelatin for comparing bullets. While it is very unlikely that we will ever be attacked by a Gelatious Cube

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatinous_cube

the controlled comparison of shooting bullets into gelatin definitely is a useful test.

That being said, I don't think the sand test you are referring to is a good test setup. I was just referring to the principle of an "unrealistic" test.

Greg Bell

01-02-2014, 08:40 AM

Another interesting data point: Larry Vicker's said that Delta did a bunch of harsh environment testing with the Glock 21, HK USP and their own cobbled-up 1911s. He said that the USPs were first, the 1911s were 2nd and the Glocks were hands-down the least reliable.

ToddG

01-02-2014, 08:59 AM

Maybe not, but destructive testing (not being discussed, I know) can teach you all kinds of things you wouldn't learn any other way.

I have no problem with destruction testing. BTDT and I have 1 broken frame and 3 cracked slides to show for it. :cool:

But as you said, that's a completely different matter from creating unrealistic tests that subject the product to abuses that would be impossible under any realistic, normal use. Taking the gun apart and jamming sand into a space where sand couldn't get jammed were the gun assembled tells you absolutely nothing. There's a reason why milspec testing for dust, dirt, and sand is done with the gun assembled.

You can't actually create a "realistic" test. Because you can't "control" reality. The only way you can get meaningful comparison data is to have a controllable test. Which usually means it won't be realistic, but the point is the conditions are controlled and therefore is repeatable and can be used across multiple tests.

I think we're using "realistic" in different ways. In your example, you're testing a product to withstand a realistic abuse. You're not firing a bowling ball into the door at 1,000,000fps.

Tests can be realistic and still be repeatable. It may not be realistic for the same exact abuse to occur to the same item over and over again or occur to every item you'll sell in the exact same way but standardizing the test protocol doesn't make it unrealistic.

JodyH

01-02-2014, 10:07 AM

H&K announced their new for 2014 handgun:

2019

GJM

01-02-2014, 01:18 PM

Back to the topic of hand -- the new Striker HK better be darn good, or they could have saved a lot of time and money by just buying Walther and labeling the P99 and PPQ as HK products.

BLR

01-02-2014, 01:23 PM

I think you can safely assume it will be:
1. Reliable
2. Hard to get, at least for a couple years
3. Expensive, especially the mags
4. Ugly as sin
5. For the first couple years, the focus of every pistol fashionista out there

JBP55

01-02-2014, 02:29 PM

Back to the topic of hand -- the new Striker HK better be darn good, or they could have saved a lot of time and money by just buying Walther and labeling the P99 and PPQ as HK products.

That is what I thought when I read about HK making a striker fired pistol.

ffhounddog

01-02-2014, 02:35 PM

JAD

01-02-2014, 02:37 PM

Back to the topic of hand -- the new Striker HK better be darn good, or they could have saved a lot of time and money by just buying Walther and labeling the P99 and PPQ as HK products.
Austrians do not have a fantastic track record running things in Germany.

Magic_Salad0892

01-02-2014, 07:09 PM

H&K announced their new for 2014 handgun:

2019

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g424/Magic_Salad0892/iaintevenmad_zps4499c968.png (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/Magic_Salad0892/media/iaintevenmad_zps4499c968.png.html)

JSGlock34

01-02-2014, 07:39 PM

I find the P30X designation uninspired. Let's continue the VP70 lineage! VP14? VP2000?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Vp70z.jpg/800px-Vp70z.jpg

GJM

01-02-2014, 09:09 PM

I find the P30X designation uninspired. Let's continue the VP70 lineage!

Hey, I had one of those. Seemed to be the inspiration for all HK triggers that followed. :)

Just to set expectations, if the striker HK was an HK looking P99 or PPQ, would the market call it a success or failure? If a failure, what would you be looking for in this design?

Chuck Whitlock

01-03-2014, 08:33 PM

Disregard.

Kyle Reese

01-03-2014, 10:27 PM

Moved the P99 / Walther discussions HERE (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10297-Walther-P99/page4)

TCinVA

01-03-2014, 10:55 PM

H&K announced their new for 2014 handgun:

2019

That does bring up the point that H&K actually invented the polymer-framed, striker-fired handgun...

I'm sure they have some ideas up their sleeve.

KevinB

01-04-2014, 03:45 PM

Pretty sure the Mk24 user group went a different route and their route change left Hk less interested in delivering a striker fired gun that they did not want to build anyway.

A modernized take on the VP70Z gun would be very interesting. The same with a modern PS9

Greg Bell

01-04-2014, 05:35 PM

What route have they taken?

JBP55

01-04-2014, 06:36 PM

Does it rhyme with Rock?

Greg Bell

01-04-2014, 07:08 PM

I can't imagine they have adopted the G21 in that role.

UNK

01-04-2014, 07:18 PM

I don't care if it is striker fired or not but if HK would come out with a good trigger pull for their hand guns it would be great.
Pat

Ditto x 1000

A great trigger would be even better.

Comedian

01-05-2014, 05:28 AM

Is H&K planning on producing and releasing this pistol?

ralph

01-05-2014, 10:15 AM

Is H&K planning on producing and releasing this pistol?

That's a good question..I've been hearing about the striker-fired P-30 for several years now, so far nothing..Supposedly a couple of prototypes DO exist.. According to the latest rumors, they were going to unveil it at this year's SHOT show, but I see a few pages back where HK has now said it won't be there, because basically it's not quite ready for prime-time...yet..So, I guess the answer to your question is a solid "maybe." Myself, I'll believe it when they're on dealers shelves, for sale...Hk is known for taking a loooong time developing new products, the bright side here is, When they do bring something new out, they usually have all the bugs worked out, and they usually work, right out of the box..

GJM

01-14-2014, 11:45 PM

From HK Pro:

Quote Originally Posted by G3Kurz View Post
The new HK striker-fired pistol will not be at SHOT Show. This was being openly discussed outside HK at the Media Day yesterday so the cat is out of the bag. It will make its debut at the NRA Show in Indy this year. HK is taking additional time to make sure it is "right" before it released and so production guns are ready to be shipped to dealers right after its debut. You have to respect that and accept the delay for that reason. How many new prodiucts in the industry have been released only to have issues soonthereafter. Not before it's time is a prudent way forward. From what I am hearing it sounds like it will be well worth waiting for.
G3Kurz

Comedian

01-15-2014, 01:10 AM

Suvorov

01-15-2014, 01:49 AM

Taking a gun down to small parts and actively dipping them in sand before reassembly is a perfectly valid test?

Don't know. My "battle buddy" however figured out how to loose the firing pin retainer pin from his M16s BCG in the field and figured a twig inserted and then broken off would be just as good. Worked well until we had to fire live rounds and the rifle locked up on him. Instructor was not too happy with him. I guess my point is, never underestimate Private Snuffy's ability to do the absurd.

psalms144.1

01-15-2014, 09:45 AM

I'm cautiously optomistic that HK will (a) do this right (e.g. deliver a pistol that is 100% reliable and meets their accuracy standards), (b) price this competitively, and (c) design this "right." WRT item (b), I've heard that the target MSRP on these will be below $700 (NFI), which SHOULD equate to a "street" price within $150 of, say, a Glock. Seeing as I consider the Glock to be hit-and-miss (pun intended) on accuracy, I find that price difference to be a wash (Glock +$150 WC or KKM barrel = HK P30X, price-wise), and will make the HK very competitive.

WRT item (c), if the striker-fired HK is simply a P30 with the hammer removed and a striker placed in the slide (ala the P320), I'll be disappointed. Hopefully HK has taken the opportunity to design this from the ground up to maximize the benefits of striker-fired pistols WRT trigger "feel," travel and reset; overall size and weight; and (gasp) bore axis (eeks, I said it!). I can dream that they will keep the P30's ergonomics but shrink the grip to P2000 length without giving up magazine capacity, but I think all of that is, in fact, just a dream...

Patiently waiting for April now...

Beat Trash

01-15-2014, 06:17 PM

I am so hoping that it will be more along the size of the P2000 or Glock 19. I am patiently waiting, along with my check book to see what comes out at the NRA show.

if this turns out to be a bust, then I will look hard st the Walther PPQ.

BCL

01-16-2014, 01:39 AM

According to someone "in the know" on HKPro, it should cost less than $700...

Greg Bell

01-16-2014, 09:41 AM

I wouldn't get too excited. There are "expert" claims made by certain folks over there that are usually little more than speculation. If you go back and track the few concrete claims made over there by these experts they are usually either wrong or have just been released in a trade magazine somewhere.

1986s4

01-16-2014, 10:30 AM

According to someone "in the know" on HKPro, it should cost less than $700...

Less than $700, a decent trigger and [for me] a low profile slide with lower bore axis. Closer to a P-7 than a P-30. Also a huge plus would be capable of using P-30 magazines.

klewis

01-16-2014, 03:17 PM

On the Firearm Blog, they have an interview done by one of the HKPro guys with HK's President, Wayne Weber. They list a bunch of Q&A in text accompanying the video interview.
Interview is here. (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/16/shot-hk-interview-president-wayne-weber-lots-pics/)

Of note,
"8. Subcompact P30 is coming, Wayne said hopefully within calendar year 2014.

9. Striker fire pistol is in the works, no more details."

Greg Bell

01-16-2014, 05:53 PM

I don't think he even said there was one in the works. He just said they were "working on new products" and "no information" and "nothing just yet." Given that he was willing to talk about the SK P30 and G36 stuff I have no reason to believe he was concealing anything. The whole striker fired HK may well be an internet myth. Maybe.

LSP972

01-17-2014, 08:07 AM

You need to go over that interview again, Greg. He definitely stated that both a P30SK and a striker-fired HK are in the works.

The striker-fire gun has been around for a while. Prototypes have been here since early last year (or even earlier), to a select few folks who swore a blood oath or some such not to divulge any information while they were/are evaluating it.

I know, this sounds like one of those "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" mall ninja war stories; but I spoke with a fellow who has shot one. And he wouldn't even say what it looked like, as he let it slip unintentionally.

HK is now saying that a new pistol will be seen at the NRA Show in the spring. They didn't say WHAT pistol, AFAIK. I'm hoping its the P30SK.

.

Eternal24k

01-17-2014, 08:30 PM

Sounds like this will give the PPQ a run for its money at that price point

TORCH2J

01-17-2014, 09:28 PM

Accordinging to the few photos I saw, they look like a PPQ. I thought that this was the year that Hk was supposed to drastically change some of its prices in order to become more competative with Glock and SW price wise. I dont know too many people at Hk, and I'm nobody, but that's the story I keep hearing.

LSP552

01-17-2014, 10:24 PM

Does anyone, based on history, think the trigger will be anything but mediocre?

Ken

TheTrevor

01-17-2014, 11:11 PM

Does anyone, based on history, think the trigger will be anything but mediocre?

Depends on whether they let the folk(s) behind the Combat Competition LEM/Match hybrid trigger have anything to say about it, and how much it would cost in terms of materials (e.g. nickel-plated flat spring) and machining operations to make it good. Then the marketing cost-benefit guys get involved and decide, based on throwing strings of fresh Jagdwurst (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdwurst) on the floor of the hunting lodge and reading the signs, whether a better trigger would increase sales enough to offset the costs.

I give it about a 10% chance of having a Really Good trigger, 30% chance of having a Good trigger, 60% chance of having a trigger like a poorly tuned LEM on a USP. Note that "OMGWTF fantastic trigger!!1!1!" isn't even in the running...

GJM

01-17-2014, 11:24 PM

I have heard rumblings the goal is to have two triggers in the striker:

1) a cop trigger

and

2) a real skookum one, which should command a premium

TheTrevor

01-18-2014, 12:02 AM

I'd pay $50-100 more to have a slicked-up Combat Competition type trigger straight out of the box. Heck, I've spent more than that, per gun, on v1-to-LEM conversions.

Which means that HK will probably list it at $200 more than the cop-trigger model, and that's before any LE discounts. {sigh}

BobLoblaw

01-18-2014, 03:34 AM

Heck, I've spent more than that, per gun, on v1-to-LEM conversions.

I thought V1 was a LEM variant?

TheTrevor

01-18-2014, 03:54 AM

I thought V1 was a LEM variant?

Not on the USP/USPc and HK45/HK45c series guns, where V1 is DA/SA with a safety/decocker on the left side of the frame.

With the P30, HK apparently thought they'd go full-European and number everything from V0 instead of V1 as in the past. P30 V0 is LEM with a decocker, V1/2/4 are LEM no decocker. Just to make it confusing.

BobLoblaw

01-18-2014, 05:51 AM

Thanks for clearing that up.

JBP55

01-18-2014, 08:40 AM

I have heard rumblings the goal is to have two triggers in the striker:

1) a cop trigger

and

2) a real skookum one, which should command a premium

HK could make all of them with a good trigger and use different springs for a heavier trigger pull in the LE guns.

JodyH

01-18-2014, 09:35 AM

HK could make all of them with a good trigger and use different springs for a heavier trigger pull in the LE guns.
You don't know many German engineers do you?

LSP972

01-18-2014, 09:40 AM

Does anyone, based on history, think the trigger will be anything but mediocre?

Ken

Not taking that bet. But I WILL wager that it works every time, has no recalls or "safety alerts", won't spit brass in ones' face, etc., etc….

I have no dog in this hunt, because my interest these days is strictly concealed carry, and I prefer a hammer gun for that. But it will certainly be interesting to see how HK has handled this side of the equation.

.

JBP55

01-18-2014, 10:29 AM

You don't know many German engineers do you?

I worked with a few German Mechanical Engineers when I was in the workforce. I am now Retired.

GardoneVT

01-18-2014, 10:36 AM

Not taking that bet. But I WILL wager that it works every time, has no recalls or "safety alerts", won't spit brass in ones' face, etc., etc….

I have no dog in this hunt, because my interest these days is strictly concealed carry, and I prefer a hammer gun for that. But it will certainly be interesting to see how HK has handled this side of the equation.

.

Aren't German guns intended for police use required to meet a bureaucrat-set standard for weight, reset distance, etc? From what I remember, the German governments criteria is like the Mass. 10lb weight requirement-it ruins any chance for a good trigger out of the box.

Considering we all here believe it's the Indians skill and not his arrow which matters, I'm curious why people are hyping this project -especially considering that HK will need to price their striker product near Glock to stay competitive, and I cannot see them doing that without cutting corners in QC.

LSP552

01-18-2014, 11:01 AM

Considering we all here believe it's the Indians skill and not his arrow which matters, I'm curious why people are hyping this project -especially considering that HK will need to price their striker product near Glock to stay competitive, and I cannot see them doing that without cutting corners in QC.

The arrow is also a factor, just not the most important one. But it is still a factor. The less skilled a person is, the greater the factor.

Ken

CCT125US

01-18-2014, 11:16 AM

For those interested in a P30SK, what exactly would you want to see in it? How are these specs different from the P2000SK?
Here are my thoughts between the two:
Similarities:
They share 18 (may vary by model) of the same parts, such as: trigger bar, trigger detent, detent spring, hammer axle, decocking lever (v3), hammer catch, disconnector, leaf spring, cylindrical pin, slide pins x2, extractor, extractor buffer, extractor spring, firing pin spring, firing pin block spring, firing pin block, slide release spring, and magazine release spring.
Fully ambidextrous
HK quality trigger :)
Differences:
P30 length 6.99 vs. 6.42
P30 width 1.37 vs. 1.28
P30 height 5.43 vs. 4.61
P30 weight 26.08 oz. vs. 23.8 oz.
P30 sight radius 5.85 vs. 5.20
Dovetail cuts
Pic rail
Changeable lateral panels on P30
No Batman grip texture on SK
However, to me the differences are what one would want in a P30SK, am I missing something?

Greg Bell

01-18-2014, 11:46 AM

Unless there is something I am missing there is nothing particularly interesting about the P30SK. If it is just a chopped P30 then is ti s P2000SK with a slightly different grip. Whoopdedoo.

If it is an ultra-low profile single stack model then I am interested, but I don't see HK wasting time on this.

What they need to do is look closely at the Caracal and Steyr designs. Use them as basic templates and then do the HK magic to them (which, as far as I can tell, means being one of the very few companies in the industry to involve actual engineers in the process, LOL). In the end, have a gun that is basically a Steyr M9 with an M&P style grip (so laser grips can be installed easily), Walther PPQ trigger and standard P30 dovetails.And most importantly, HK engineers get to do what has to be done so we don't get the industry standard recalls and excuse making that Glock, S&W and SIG have perfected. If they can do this, I think they can charge about $125 over other designs and sell a ton while not hurting their brand.

H&K clearly needs to hire me to yay or nay their projects. I am available for $250,000 per year plus ammo.:cool:

CCT125US

01-18-2014, 12:03 PM

Looks like my cut and paste missed a line of text. The above is comparing the current P30 and P2000SK. My question is what would a P30SK do that a P2000Sk doesn't already?

LSP972

01-18-2014, 12:10 PM

Unless there is something I am missing there is nothing particularly interesting about the P30SK.

You are. The "finger groove" protrusion on the P2000SK front strap is in the wrong place for some folks; it jams my middle finger up against the mag release, for instance, and is very uncomfortable. Since I am fervently looking for something a bit lighter than my HK45C to tote every day, I was about at the point of buying an SK and grinding the front strap protrusion off. Now, I'm going to wait and see what the P30K, SK, whatever they will call it is offering.

And I think that your thought that HK will be able to charge $125 more (above the median hambone price threshhold), while logical and highly sensible, is a non-starter. Sure, among those who know the difference between an HK and Glock/M&P/Sig/Serbo-Croat Special/etc.

But the average US gun buyer (or for that matter, your average police administrator/purchasing type) does not know, nor does he/she care. Our whole society has become fixated on price points. I see this in plenty of other areas besides firearms. Heck, just look at all of the folks on gun boards who still believe HK has the "you suck/we hate you" attitude?

.

Greg Bell

01-18-2014, 02:13 PM

You are. The "finger groove" protrusion on the P2000SK front strap is in the wrong place for some folks; it jams my middle finger up against the mag release, for instance, and is very uncomfortable. Since I am fervently looking for something a bit lighter than my HK45C to tote every day, I was about at the point of buying an SK and grinding the front strap protrusion off. Now, I'm going to wait and see what the P30K, SK, whatever they will call it is offering.

.

Well, if it is basically a P2000 SK without a finger grove then I will probably be able to skip my anti-insomnia meds.

And I think that your thought that HK will be able to charge $125 more (above the median hambone price threshhold), while logical and highly sensible, is a non-starter. Sure, among those who know the difference between an HK and Glock/M&P/Sig/Serbo-Croat Special/etc.

I think HK can charge a premium. People pay more for Glocks than Rugers, etc. They cannot, however, charge the outrageous ripoff premium they charge now.

LSP972

01-18-2014, 07:18 PM

Well, if it is basically a P2000 SK without a finger grove then I will probably be able to skip my anti-insomnia meds.

Good. Any slight increase in chances of me getting one sooner are greatly appreciated…;)

.

JSGlock34

02-23-2014, 09:02 AM

There's a 12 page (and growing) thread on HKPro (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/196109-p30-striker-sfp.html) debating whether the following pictures depicting a HK striker fired pistol are authentic...

http://i.imgur.com/fNMMe7D.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0JxFZQb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4qsrkfg.jpg

hufnagel

02-23-2014, 09:36 AM

Looks like my cut and paste missed a line of text. The above is comparing the current P30 and P2000SK. My question is what would a P30SK do that a P2000Sk doesn't already?

Having both P30 and P2000SK copies in my safe, I can honestly say they're sufficiently similar enough that a P30SK will have to be somehow special to make me buy one (and I'm an unabashed HK lover.) That being said that special-ness could be something that technical specs don't tell the whole story... much like the difference between a P2000 and a P30. They make both and they sell both quite well, but the P30 (I'm pretty sure) sells more. Why? They're not THAT spectacularly different but people still like the P30 better. If picking up a P30SK and comparing it to a P2000SK makes you go "I can't describe it, but it's just better" then the wizards are doing their job. Oh and I'll probably buy a pair. :)

LSP972

02-23-2014, 10:22 AM

For those interested in a P30SK, what exactly would you want to see in it?

Dream sheet?

No finger grooves.

Lose the ambi slide lock lever, making the pistol a bit thinner.

Please, PLEASE, no rail! This is NOT a "tactical pistol", for Pete's sake. No rail means a slightly more narrow front end which translates to a more comfortable IWB holster.

Realistically, I expect that the P30SK will be just like the P2000SK… an example of the larger pistol that has been chopped at the muzzle and butt. If so, I will be sad.

We shall see… eventually.

.

littlejerry

02-23-2014, 12:42 PM

JSGlock34

02-23-2014, 12:53 PM

It's interesting. Unsurprisingly there is a strong resemblance to the Walther PPQ M1. The rear slide serrations are novel - looks like there is almost a 'shelf' to the rear, presumably to aid in slide manipulations. I'm curious to hear from a more...established...source as to the authenticity of these photos.

JodyH

02-23-2014, 01:12 PM

looks like there is almost a 'shelf' to the rear, presumably to aid in slide manipulations.
The "shelf" is more than likely the striker assembly retention plate.

ffhounddog

02-23-2014, 01:18 PM

It looks like a HK.

Does the trigger doe most striker fired triggers have to have that protrusion for a safety?

bkent

02-23-2014, 01:40 PM

For those interested in a P30SK, what exactly would you want to see in it?

The main reason I'm holding off on purchasing a P2000SK is because of the limited number of sights for the gun. I'd like to run the same type of sights on both my P30 and a H&K subcompact. There are a few brands that offer sights for both the P2000SK and P30 but I'm not interested in those.

So I'm hoping for a P30SK with the following:
* The slide machined to receive P30 sights.
* Same option of a LEM trigger pull.
* Ability to use P30 mags.

So pretty much a cut done P30. Pretty boring for a lot of you, but for carry; consistency, safety and reliability are what qualities I care about.
Kent

Leroy

02-23-2014, 01:59 PM

GJM

02-23-2014, 02:06 PM

JBP55

02-23-2014, 03:39 PM

I believe the point is for HK to have a pistol that will compete more closely, in price and design, with Glock, the M&P and other striker pistols, so as to allow more LE and striker centric sales.

I believe we have a Winner!

Comedian

02-23-2014, 07:11 PM

Maybe Todd could chime in with a confirmation of the authenticity of these pics?

ToddG

02-23-2014, 07:15 PM

Maybe Todd could chime in with a confirmation of the authenticity of these pics?

Crickets.

JHC

02-23-2014, 08:34 PM

Magic_Salad0892

02-23-2014, 08:38 PM

Does the P30 come in a V9 configuration?

JSGlock34

02-23-2014, 08:48 PM

Does the P30 come in a V9 configuration?

While not a true V9 (which eliminates the decocking function entirely), the P30S has a frame mounted safety lever but retains the decocking button on the rear of the slide. So the problem of pushing through the safety and activating the decocking function that V9 addressed is not a factor.

Clobbersaurus

02-23-2014, 08:56 PM

Interesting, trigger looks to have a lot of travel.

In any event us it looks like us lowly Canucks will have to wait for a legal barrel length.

Thanks HK.

GardoneVT

02-23-2014, 11:49 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the point of a striker fired HK (forget anything to do with marketing and sales stuff). Is it because we think it will be cheaper than the currently offered models? Do we want a consistent trigger pull all the time that isn't the LEM? Magazine capacity increase because of reduced action space? I think if HK just came out with an aftermarket or target model DA/SA trigger (basically make a really nice trigger) or a LEM model with improved reset does that do it? Does it matter what the action style a pistol is so long as the trigger is "good" and reliable. Does striker vs. DA/SA vs. LEM matter?

Here's my take. As someone who shot the V3 and owned a V2, I'll just say that HKs biggest problem isn't trigger quality. It's selling their guns to the Cleeti .

It's a grim reality to face ,but most gun owners in the US are like vintage car collectors. They buy guns, talk about guns, then trade them for the next Flavor of the Month. What they don't do is shoot them, which renders the whole DA/SA vs LEM debate moot. HK could stick a Sigma trigger in their next striker fired gun, and as long as the price is accessable to the Cabelas Gun Case Rangers it won't matter. If gun companies made product based on quality instead of marketing, the 2014 Gun Digest List would be a pamphlet instead of a book.

LSP972

02-24-2014, 08:10 AM

Crickets.

Jim Schatz (HKPro's acknowledged Knower of All Things HK) is mum as well.

So that means either the photos are genuine- and prematurely leaked- or they are doctored and not worth commenting on.

I wouldn't bet a nickle either way...:D

.

GJM

02-24-2014, 08:14 AM

Jim Schatz (HKPro's acknowledged Knower of All Things HK) is mum as well.

So that means either the photos are genuine- and prematurely leaked- or they are doctored and not worth commenting on.

I wouldn't bet a nickle either way...:D

.

Interesting post on the new striker:

Originally Posted by Brahma
Yes, and G3 let us all in on it - the reissue of the VP70Z.

G3 - care to comment on the validity of the SFP thread?
I am not sure that that photo on the other thread is legit. I have not seen the prototype but many folks familiar with Photoshop question the authenticity of the image. HK has been necessarily close hold on the show and release of the SFP so I think we can only be patient and wait and see what comes out. I just hope they got the trigger pull right. I have witnessed countless times first impressions of buyers of handguns. They grab the pistol and feel the grip. Then they look at the sights and see how it "points". Finally they try the trigger. If you start out right with these three things you are off to a good start. The P30 already has the best ergonomics in the market in the eyes of many and the controls and sights are good so the trigger is the determining factor, as will be sale price and I hear good things in that regard. As an HK you know it will be strong, accurate, reliable, durable and well tested but one never sees that until after purchase and some range time. If they release it with a substandard trigger pull, reset, etc. they will have shot themselves in the foot right out of the blocks. They can do a very good trigger - the MP7 and P46 prove that. We shall see. They have been told.
G3Kurz

LSP972

02-24-2014, 11:51 AM

Ah... he breaks The Cone of Silence!

So perhaps those photos ARE legit.

In any event, I wish they would get that striker-fired business out of the way and bring us the P30SK...

.

Rich

02-24-2014, 05:50 PM

He left out "lower bore axis"…

.

As a TDA fan I love this place!

LSP972

02-24-2014, 05:59 PM

As a TDA fan I love this place!

I hope you noted the sarcasm…

.

JSGlock34

02-24-2014, 06:32 PM

So that means either the photos are genuine- and prematurely leaked- or they are doctored and not worth commenting on.

I wouldn't bet a nickle either way...:D

.

If the photos are indeed fake, I tip my hat to the artist. I've been entertained.

Trajan

02-25-2014, 04:24 PM

Maybe I'm the only one, but my first impression is meh. PPQM1 with an H&K logo and a smaller mag release.

I'm sure they'll sell reasonably well. Should do better than the PPQ due to H&Ks supply network.

BigT

03-07-2014, 11:00 AM

For what it's worth , there are no striker fired pistols on the HK stand on day one of IWA.

Dagga Boy

03-07-2014, 05:25 PM

For what it's worth , there are no striker fired pistols on the HK stand on day one of IWA.

They are there...........just not on display.....:eek:

Greg Bell

04-20-2014, 10:33 AM

Interesting rumor I had not heard (maybe I just missed it). Ken Hackathorn said that the gun was actually finished but he heard that HK USA and HK Germany were arguing about what to name it. I personally would go with P40, but I am boring.

JSGlock34

04-20-2014, 11:00 AM

VP80!

Isn't one of the many rumors regarding this pistol that it'll be introduced at the NRA show in Indianapolis at the end of the week?

Greg Bell

04-20-2014, 11:54 AM

That's what Ken said. But he said that the naming controversy might actually delay it. LOL. I thought Germans just added some numbers or letters and shipped it. Maybe they will name it the "Carrera."

GJM

04-20-2014, 12:01 PM

JSGlock34

04-20-2014, 01:01 PM

Right. This meeting at Glock would be much shorter. Though when they finally get up to 'G45' I suspect they'll have to have at least a 30 minute meeting unless fortune smiles and it happens to be a .45ACP. But I digress. SFP9 sounded a bit like an uninspired placeholder name.

Homer: All my life, I have searched for a car that feels a certain way. Powerful like a gorilla, yet soft and yielding like a Nerf ball. Now, at last, I have found it.

JBP55

04-20-2014, 02:13 PM

LHS

04-20-2014, 02:47 PM

Tamara

04-20-2014, 02:50 PM

That's what Ken said. But he said that the naming controversy might actually delay it. LOL. I thought Germans just added some numbers or letters and shipped it. Maybe they will name it the "Carrera."

Looking back over this thread, "Cayenne" would be more apropos. ;)

JBP55

04-20-2014, 05:02 PM

I think Cayenne belongs to Porsche.

Tamara

04-20-2014, 05:41 PM

I think Cayenne belongs to Porsche.

So does Carrera, but very few Porschephiles find those controversial.

TheTrevor

04-20-2014, 05:48 PM

Right. This meeting at Glock would be much shorter. Though when they finally get up to 'G45' I suspect they'll have to have at least a 30 minute meeting unless fortune smiles and it happens to be a .45ACP. But I digress. SFP9 sounded a bit like an uninspired placeholder name.

Given the counterintuitive results of Glock's monotonically increasing numerical naming scheme, it would be deliciously ironic if the G45 were a 22LR gun.

JBP55

04-20-2014, 06:23 PM

Given the counterintuitive results of Glock's monotonically increasing numerical naming scheme, it would be deliciously ironic if the G45 were a 22LR gun.

I thought the guessing game people wanted the G40 to be a .22 because the G22 is a .40 pistol.
I could care less, I just keep up with the numbers.

Kyle Reese

04-20-2014, 07:00 PM

Given the counterintuitive results of Glock's monotonically increasing numerical naming scheme, it would be deliciously ironic if the G45 were a 22LR gun.

9x18 Mak. ;)

Tamara

04-20-2014, 07:03 PM

I thought the guessing game people wanted the G40 to be a .22 because the G22 is a .40 pistol.

Glock ain't got a hair on their fourth point of contact if they don't do that. With the 22 already a .40, there are some good "Who's on first?" routines that happen in gun stores every day.

If the 40 was also a .22, they would go to eleven.

Greg Bell

04-20-2014, 07:38 PM

Looking back over this thread, "Cayenne" would be more apropos

Exactly!

Of course, Porsche made a zillion bucks on those blasphemous abominations. I am an air-cooled guy to the bone. Anything after 97 is a damn Toyota.

LSP972

04-21-2014, 07:38 AM

P10.

Already taken. I believe it is the Bundeswere's (sp?) version of the USPf 9mm, with the bass-ackwards safety lever.

.

ScotchMan

04-21-2014, 08:41 AM

Glock ain't got a hair on their fourth point of contact if they don't do that. With the 22 already a .40, there are some good "Who's on first?" routines that happen in gun stores every day.

If the 40 was also a .22, they would go to eleven.

I know of at least one person who walked into a store to buy their first gun with the idea of getting a .22, because thats a good beginner gun, and a Glock because they are simple and reliable, and walked out of the store with a Glock 22 because of this. They weren't able to return/exchange the gun and lots of drama ensued.

BigT

04-21-2014, 10:54 AM

Already taken. I believe it is the Bundeswere's (sp?) version of the USPf 9mm, with the bass-ackwards safety lever.

.

That's the P8, the P10 is their version of the USPc.

Kyle Reese

04-21-2014, 11:03 AM

That's the P8, the P10 is their version of the USPc.

That's correct.

LSP972

04-21-2014, 12:40 PM

That's the P8, the P10 is their version of the USPc.

Ah, so. I was close... but no cigar.

Thanks.

.

JSGlock34

04-24-2014, 07:52 PM

Anyone going to the NRA convention tomorrow?

GJM

04-24-2014, 08:21 PM

Anyone going to the NRA convention tomorrow?

This is my question, along with whether HK (finally) has this thing?

TheTrevor

04-24-2014, 08:51 PM

I could be wrong, but I think Tam is going now that she has a rental car.

At this point I just want HK USA to announce *something* at this show. A striker gun with a short crisp trigger and 18-round mags (that also work in the P30, of course) would be ideal.

joshs

04-24-2014, 11:32 PM

There wasn't a striker fired pistol in their booth today that I could see, but they might be waiting to reveal it tomorrow.

YVK

04-24-2014, 11:35 PM

There wasn't a striker fired pistol in their booth today that I could see, but they might be waiting to reveal it tomorrow.

Sometime one month ago I read that the release had been postponed.

cathellsk

04-25-2014, 04:47 PM

Joshs is correct. No striker fired pistol and they played ignorant and blamed internet rumor on it even existing.

JAD

04-25-2014, 05:00 PM

That's too bad; it'd be pretty cool to have a pistol with the model name "LCD."

JSGlock34

04-25-2014, 07:55 PM

Joshs is correct. No striker fired pistol and they played ignorant and blamed internet rumor on it even existing.

That's weak sauce. Didn't Wayne Weber (President HK-USA) confirm that a striker fired pistol was in development? Oh yeah, in this interview (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/16/shot-hk-interview-president-wayne-weber-lots-pics/).

Oh well, a Walther PPQ M1 followed me home from the local gunstore/range this week. That'll tide me over.

GJM

04-25-2014, 09:15 PM

That's weak sauce.

This is what I said in my SHOT "round-up." Wasn't far off.

HK did it again. Building on their reputation of refreshing their products at least every other decade, they did what they are known for -- absolutely nothing. They have been working night and day trying to put the P30 spiderman grip on on the P2000SK, knowing that is all there is between them and military contracts worldwide. Now we learn, that rather than announce a product, and have a delay getting product on the shelves, they will push back their striker announcement until the NRA show (at which point they will announce and have product out there.) This is what all that translates to from German to English -- “oh crap another year with nothing new. Let’s say it will come at NRA, but leave out what year NRA.” Wayne Weber is no doubt busy at SHOT with his iPhone sneaking pictures of Glock, FNS, M&P and Walther pistols to send them back to Germany in hard copy, since Germany doesn’t have email, to explain to them again what a striker pistol looks like.

LSP972

04-26-2014, 08:20 AM

They have been working night and day trying to put the P30 spiderman grip on on the P2000SK, knowing that is all there is between them and military contracts worldwide.

Uh… what?

I don't think there is much of a demand among the world's military forces for a sub-compact pistol.

A full-size striker gun, OTOH, has some interest there; more so among police agencies, I would think. Particularly U.S. police agencies, many of whom seem to be buying in to the federal concept of new guns every five years or so… same brand or different, hey, I know, let's have a test/competition!

But with the exception of a few enlightened, larger agencies with good budgets, who are buying sub-compact examples of their uniform issue pistol for back-up/off-duty use, we simply aren't seeing large-scale buys of small guns. Of course, I left out my old agency, which recently bought 1K of a really… questionable… "pocket" .380 for all commissioned personnel. I'm still trying to wrap my head around THAT one, with no success...

So, unless you were saying something different (and apologies if I misunderstood), I'm not tracking with you here.

.

LSP972

04-26-2014, 08:51 AM

After thinking about this a bit more, I also believe you're not giving HK enough credit. The striker pistol exists; in fact, has for some time, and has been tested in this country, under wraps, sure, but nevertheless extant, since early last year at least… probably longer. Apparently it has some fleas yet to be worked out. At least HK hasn't taken a page from the Glock, S&W, et. al. playbook and let the consumer find the bugs, eh?

While your reference to HK/USA being hamstrung by what the Mother Ship will/will not allow, etc., is probably spot on, I'm pretty certain that the sub-compact P30, whatever they choose to call it, is aimed squarely at the U.S. civilian concealed carry "market". The full-size striker pistol will certainly have broader market appeal, so I suspect they will get it right and out there before the sub-compact P30.

Bad for me and others who have zero interest in a striker gun but are eagerly awaiting the P30SK; good marketing sense.

I believe that the key point here is… who is the one major manufacturer who has not had a wide-spread, recurring design or QC issue among us… we, the guys on this board and others, the American shooting public?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I know of two noteworthy issues with HK pistols; the rusting trigger bar plunger/spring of U.S. Custom's P2000s, and the slide cracks of U.S. Border Patrol's P2000s. Both were limited to a single federal agency experiencing the problem, and I'll just about bet my pension that the latter one (the cracked slides) were the result of the "special" 155gr .40 ammunition they were using.

That one was reported here a few years ago; I got in contact with that respondent. The problem was very real, but occurred only in a few .40 cailber pistols; the 9mms kept chugging along. And, more to the point, the fellow told me that the problem went away once they quit using that ammunition. If it looks like a duck…

No doubt some will say that I'm simply an HK kool-aid drinker (which I freely admit) and that I'm blinded by brand loyalty (hardly). Fine… facts are facts.

.

GJM

04-26-2014, 11:06 AM

The SK reference was part of an overall (humorous) post about the various happenings of SHOT 2014.

I am pissed off at HK, because I want a shootable HK, and hoped the new striker with the super dooper trigger module would be it. The striker (and SK) was supposedly a sure thing for SHOT until about a month before. Then the word at SHOT was the striker would be released at NRA, with product available from dealers at the same time.

Anyone care to bet whether the striker will be at SHOT 2015?

LSP972

04-26-2014, 11:16 AM

I am pissed off at HK..

Yeah, I got that part…;)

.

CCT125US

04-26-2014, 12:52 PM

I am pissed off at HK, because I want a shootable HK, and hoped the new striker with the super dooper trigger module would be it.

I honestly don't mind the triggers on my P30s. At this point I have no interest in a striker fired version. I don't know if it's the percieved AIWB benefits, or the history I have with the v3. But I can't see a striker fired version doing anything better for me. But then again I haven't fired one or verified the existence yet:)

Default.mp3

06-03-2014, 02:53 PM

M4C's Grant Timberlake has some information, claims they should be out by July.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/HK/VP9%20Product%20Sheet%20JUNE.pdf

http://i.imgur.com/44XBsuG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XKAQmRo.jpg

Wonder if it'll be more conducive to MRDS mounting. MSRP is suppose to be 719 USD.

texasaggie2005

06-03-2014, 02:56 PM

I started a new thread with these photos, forgetting about this one already active.

http://i.imgur.com/H0cZJ0O.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bGMl2IN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/03tASU3.jpg

Haraise

06-03-2014, 03:55 PM

Somewhat disappointing that it's not a 17/18/19 round magazine full size, but looks perfect for carry. Hopefully they'll make a full size.

YVK

06-03-2014, 03:58 PM

Says end of the firing pin is visible. I want it to be accessible with my strong hand thumb.

DannyZRC

06-03-2014, 03:59 PM

I can understand it, I'm sure S&W is printing a lot of money by taking some of Glock's market share with a 'clone', but I'm disappointed HK isn't moving the game forward in any meaningful way. It would have been more interesting if they had tried to bring the advantages of LEM to their striker pistol, or maybe even the versatility of their USP mechanics and interchangeable levers/detent plates et. al.

Except for any inherent 'HKness', it seems quite close to a PPQ, which is in turn a variation on the glock theme.

The Glock paradigm took over the world 20 years ago, I imagine the market is ripe for an interesting new wrinkle that snowballs into the new default any time now.

JodyH

06-03-2014, 04:18 PM

I'll be over in the classifieds waiting on the stampede of forum members selling their Sig/CZ/Beretta/M&P flavors of the month for the newest shiny H&K.
:cool:
Just to add some secret squirrel to this thread.
When I closed my eyes I thought I was shooting my wife's PPQ.

TheNewbie

06-03-2014, 04:20 PM

I wonder if the will offer one with a manual safety?

.......or at least something that increases safety when holstering.

HCM

06-03-2014, 04:26 PM

Somewhat disappointing that it's not a 17/18/19 round magazine full size, but looks perfect for carry. Hopefully they'll make a full size.

The P-30 magazine is a very durable and reliable magazine. I recall BLR's comments about HK being, fundamentally, a magazine company.

An "L" version would be nice.

Is it just me of do those look like P30 sights as well ?

HCM

06-03-2014, 04:28 PM

CMG

06-03-2014, 04:34 PM

I like the fact that it takes P30 magazines. It also looks like those wings should make one-handed manipulations easier. I wonder if the Trijicon sights for the the P30/HK45 will work on this?

jetfire

06-03-2014, 04:38 PM

I like the fact that it takes P30 magazines. It also looks like those wings should make one-handed manipulations easier. I wonder if the Trijicon sights for the the P30/HK45 will work on this?

Just got an email from HK about getting one in for review. I will have many questions and more info once the gun shows up.

GJM

06-03-2014, 04:39 PM

I like it that HK has designed it with a favorable bore axis and attributes benefits to that design. :)

Haraise

06-03-2014, 04:45 PM

The P-30 magazine is a very durable and reliable magazine. I recall BLR's comments about HK being, fundamentally, a magazine company.

An "L" version would be nice.

Is it just me of do those look like P30 sights as well ?

I'm not casting doubt on the reliability of the P30 magazine, only that 15=!17/18/19. :)

I love the grip (small/small/small panels) on the P30, but even the L version isn't really full size. Still has the compact recoil system and magazine.

I'm only concerned about these soulless abominations from a duty gun perspective, anyway.

BobLoblaw

06-03-2014, 04:57 PM

That trigger force graph is interesting. Is that a lighter and longer trigger travel? Comparing that graph to these specs for trigger travel vs Glock/M&P gives me a forehead wrinkle.

t1tan

06-03-2014, 05:31 PM

It just makes me think of it as being a striker fired version of LEM(depending on the the v);

long light take up>no stacking>wall>fire.

Default.mp3

06-03-2014, 05:44 PM

Not sure what that yellow thingy is, but I suspect it's ruining my dream of an RMR mounted without needing an adapter plate:
http://i.imgur.com/zfOQwLO.png

Will have to talk to Mark Housel when this thing comes out. If the trigger is as sweet is it's rumored to be, I could get 2 VP9s for the price of 1 P30LS with a GreyGuns trigger job; would be losing out on the manual safety and hammer for holstering, though.

warpedcamshaft

06-03-2014, 05:46 PM

I'm going to try one...

I have a PPQ M1 and would like to compare the two...

The PPQ holds my all time Hackathorn Standards record at 290(with a peer timing/scoring), and with the P30 Lem my best was about 284ish...

I'm curious enough to give HK some more of my money...

TAZ

06-03-2014, 06:13 PM

Tamara

06-03-2014, 06:52 PM

Dear Odin,

Please let that slide release sit above my thumb in a normal grip. I have been very good this year.

-Tam

BobLoblaw

06-03-2014, 07:16 PM

Deleted due to redundancy of info.

LittleLebowski

06-03-2014, 07:29 PM

JHC

06-03-2014, 07:38 PM

Dear Odin,

Please let that slide release sit above my thumb in a normal grip. I have been very good this year.

-Tam

Well, better anyway. ;) Yeah, this looks pretty neat.

JHC

06-03-2014, 07:40 PM

I like it that HK has designed it with a favorable bore axis and attributes benefits to that design. :)

Me too. Even if that's not really important. ;)

TGS

06-03-2014, 07:42 PM

I'm not casting doubt on the reliability of the P30 magazine, only that 15=!17/18/19. :)

I love the grip (small/small/small panels) on the P30, but even the L version isn't really full size. Still has the compact recoil system and magazine.

I'm only concerned about these soulless abominations from a duty gun perspective, anyway.

Think about it like this:

It is a 17 round mag.

HK simply puts tabs on their followers which prevent it from being loaded past 15 rounds. It's pretty well documented on HKPRO, and by removing such tabs you have a perfectly functioning 17 round mag which, theoretically, will need spring replacement more along the frequency of their competitors.

There's a reason that HK mag springs last a heck of a lot longer than competitors....and to me, I think it's pretty obvious why.

LittleLebowski

06-03-2014, 07:45 PM

I might have to get one of these.

YVK

06-03-2014, 08:18 PM

I like it that HK has designed it with a favorable bore axis and attributes benefits to that design. :)

:)

Yup, 5.41 for this striker wonder vs 5.43 P30. It would be funny if this one flipped up higher than P30.

Greg Bell

06-03-2014, 08:46 PM

I could really care less about the strikeryness of it all, or the bore axis. I am happy to see the slide release lever looks to be a little less easily tripped, but we shall see. Hopefully the trigger is something special if they are openly bragging about it. I am very happy to see they didn't abandon the mag levers like Walther did.

imp1295

06-03-2014, 08:52 PM

Glock ain't got a hair on their fourth point of contact if they don't do that. With the 22 already a .40, there are some good "Who's on first?" routines that happen in gun stores every day.

If the 40 was also a .22, they would go to eleven.

Hey now Airborne...Sorry couldn't pass up the opportunity to recognize the reference. completely unrelated to the current discussion. However, I will say that a HK SFP just puts me back in the same hole as a Glock WRT AIWB. Not gonna do it, without a way to have another layer of risk mitigation when going up front.

YVK

06-03-2014, 09:02 PM

That's why I was hoping that the back end of a striker is accessible to thumb pressure. Or some easy post market modification is feasible.

JodyH

06-03-2014, 09:08 PM

Snappy like a PPQ?
I don't find the PPQ to have any more or less muzzle flip than other service sized 9mm's.

The H&K I shot had more muzzle flip, but that's because it wasn't a 9mm...
As far as the trigger, think Glock 3.5#/NY1 without the sponginess.

LittleLebowski

06-03-2014, 09:13 PM

I don't find the PPQ to have any more or less muzzle flip than other service sized 9mm's.

The H&K I shot had more muzzle flip, but that's because it wasn't a 9mm...
As far as the trigger, think Glock 3.5#/NY1 without the sponginess.

I noticed quite a different recoil impulse with the 9mm PPQ, noticeably different than other service 9mms. Subjective of course and I do have this gunshot arm but everyone else I know who shot it said the same thing that day.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

Kyle Reese

06-03-2014, 09:15 PM

I noticed quite a different recoil impulse with the 9mm PPQ, noticeably different than other service 9mms. Subjective of course and I do have this gunshot arm but everyone else I know who shot it said the same thing that day.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I find the PPQ to be snappy as well.

JSGlock34

06-03-2014, 09:42 PM

I find the PPQ to be snappy as well.

Agreed - my PPQ M1 has noticeably more snap than my GEN4 G19. I wonder if the Walther might benefit from a dual recoil spring assembly like the Glock.

Tamara

06-03-2014, 09:42 PM

I don't find the PPQ to have any more or less muzzle flip than other service sized 9mm's.

The H&K I shot had more muzzle flip, but that's because it wasn't a 9mm...
As far as the trigger, think Glock 3.5#/NY1 without the sponginess.

This thing's natural competitor, the SIG P320, seemed to be pretty un-flippy. Wonder how they compare?

dookie1481

06-03-2014, 10:50 PM

This thing's natural competitor, the SIG P320, seemed to be pretty un-flippy. Wonder how they compare?

The P320 is one of the softest shooting polymer guns I have ever fired.

Comedian

06-03-2014, 11:09 PM

Dear Odin,

Please let that slide release sit above my thumb in a normal grip. I have been very good this year.

-Tam

Ha, your a hoot tam.

Comedian

06-03-2014, 11:17 PM

Comedian

06-03-2014, 11:18 PM

The P320 is one of the softest shooting polymer guns I have ever fired.

Agree.

Mike C

06-03-2014, 11:22 PM

I'm with you Tam on the slide release positioning. I love the P320, it is super soft shooting and accurate as all get out. That slide release is probably the biggest issue for me with the P320, other than that it is a pretty amazing gun. With the P30 I was able to circumvent that problem with the short levers. I just don't want to have to change my grip. I still like to run a 1911 every now and again. I too find the PPQ to be rather snappy. I much prefer my P30 and P320 in comparison even though the PPQ has got a nice trigger and decent ergonomics. It's too bad their CS is going through the transition that it is, thats the only thing that has stopped me from picking up one, though it didn't stop me from grabbing up another PPS. I will be snagging up the new HK striker gun as soon as humanly possible. It will be very interesting to see how it stacks up against the P320.

JodyH, are you saying the functional prototype exists for other calibers in the new striker format? Are you bound by some super secret squirrel oath to keep quiet, or can you shed some light?

ffhounddog

06-04-2014, 04:47 AM

Now my P30 LEM's are not going to like me.

I wonder if these will be make in the USA? Price point at MSRP $719 seems to be that it could be if that is correct in dollars and not Euros.

JodyH

06-04-2014, 06:57 AM

There is a functional striker fired .40 in the hands of H&K's biggest US customer.
As to PPQ muzzle flip, I guess my perception is out of calibration due to shooting Scandium J frames, but it feels like an average polymer 9mm to me.

Dagga Boy

06-04-2014, 07:16 AM

There is a functional .40 in the hands of H&K's biggest US customer.

I am going to be really interested to see if they stay with .40. I think once the FBI goes all in with the 9mm, many of the other Federal agencies will follow.

I just had this conversation yesterday and my thoughts are that 9mm is going to make a big comeback for a number of reasons.

1. Cheaper to shoot-training dollars are getting much smaller across the board.
2. 9mm is much easier on the weapons systems. Less wear, breakage, maintenance, and overall system longevity also fits in with less dollars out over time.
3. 9mm is easier for many to shoot, especially those coming into L/E service with little or no firearms experience.
4. Less issues when run with weapon mounted lights that are becoming "the norm" for most LEO's.
5. MUCH easier to shoot in small back up weapons that are becoming as popular as the 5 shot .38. Caliber compatibility is more important than most people realize. Single round logistics is a big help in this regard.

Now, what I am REALLY praying for is that the P30SK is actually a VP9SK. The P2000SK is SO good as a hammer fired sub compact that a replacement isn't really needed. A striker fired companion back up to the VP9 that takes the same mags is very much going to be critical.

hufnagel

06-04-2014, 07:46 AM

If those pics are true, it doesn't LOOK as ugly as I thought it would. :D

I might get one, but my Little Voice just has a real problem with striker fired guns... I'm such a hammer guy. :D

Also, salivating at the prospect of a ton of cheap P30's, P2000's and SK's being dumped on the market. My chief of police is going to HATE me! (Heil, mein Führer NJ!)

warpedcamshaft

06-04-2014, 08:33 AM

A striker fired companion back up to the VP9 that takes the same mags is very much going to be critical.

I strongly agree.

Rich

06-04-2014, 08:39 AM

I find the PPQ to be snappy as well.

I can tell a big difference between standard pressure 124 and 147 when shooting my P30S..... I don't like the 147 impulse. And find the 124 fine and the 115 even better.
.
I know its all subjective and all ? But how does the P30 compare to PPQ when shooting the same load.

Mike C

06-04-2014, 08:41 AM

Thanks for the info JodyH. I had suspected that their largest contractor had it and that was where you shot it due to your location. I guess they have been around for a minute then. Do you know if they are just evaluating or was it just to provide feedback?

I am curious as to whether they are going to stay with .40. As NYETI stated I agree I think a lot of agencies are going to make the switch back. Initial cost ease of use and life cycle maint/cost 9mm just makes a lot of sense. Especially for the largest gov. Law enforcement agency in the US.

warpedcamshaft

06-04-2014, 08:55 AM

I can tell a big difference between standard pressure 124 and 147 when shooting my P30S..... I don't like the 147 impulse. And find the 124 fine and the 115 even better.
.
I know its all subjective and all ? But how does the P30 compare to PPQ when shooting the same load.

The ppq recoil impulse feels "sharper" to me, the p30 is fairly smooth. They both seem to flip a little bit more than some other pistols out there, but I can easily track the sights with either... And the speed of follow ups is more limited by my ability manipulate the trigger.

However, I find that the PPQ's recoil characteristics do not seem to negatively impact splits or my personal shooting performance. I've had splits down into the .14-.16 range at 7 yards on an ipsc target and have shot my best hackathorn standards score with the PPQ...

Beat Trash

06-04-2014, 09:39 AM

I am going to be really interested to see if they stay with .40. I think once the FBI goes all in with the 9mm, many of the other Federal agencies will follow.

I just had this conversation yesterday and my thoughts are that 9mm is going to make a big comeback for a number of reasons.

1. Cheaper to shoot-training dollars are getting much smaller across the board.
2. 9mm is much easier on the weapons systems. Less wear, breakage, maintenance, and overall system longevity also fits in with less dollars out over time.
3. 9mm is easier for many to shoot, especially those coming into L/E service with little or no firearms experience.
4. Less issues when run with weapon mounted lights that are becoming "the norm" for most LEO's.
5. MUCH easier to shoot in small back up weapons that are becoming as popular as the 5 shot .38. Caliber compatibility is more important than most people realize. Single round logistics is a big help in this regard.

Now, what I am REALLY praying for is that the P30SK is actually a VP9SK. The P2000SK is SO good as a hammer fired sub compact that a replacement isn't really needed. A striker fired companion back up to the VP9 that takes the same mags is very much going to be critical.

I agree with all of your points and I expect we will see a transition away from the40 to the 9mm in many agencies. Mine never left the 9mm, having gone there from the 38 spec.

If HK really wants to aggressively go after the LE market in this country, they will have to come out with a compact version to pair up with the VP9.

I am personally interested in the VP9 and most likely will buy one, just because. But a VP9sk would sell extremely well in my opinion.

Savage Hands

06-04-2014, 09:59 AM

WTS/T: Glocks, M&P, Beretta, P30, broken CZ for used VP9

JV_

06-04-2014, 10:02 AM

I guess this is just the state of my current interest in training, and shooting in general, but I have zero interest in this gun. Zero. It's a bit odd...

JodyH

06-04-2014, 10:04 AM

broken CZ
Why'd you put CZ on the list twice?

hossb7

06-04-2014, 10:06 AM

I guess this is just the state of my current interest in training, and shooting in general, but I have zero interest in this gun. Zero. It's a bit odd...

Ditto. And I personally don't find it odd. Jumping platforms every time the 2nd coming is released is no way to improve shooting. I went from Sig to M&P (as detailed in my F.A.S.T. drill update post) and IMHO my speed and accuracy has benefited greatly - but that was after spending the entire start of my shooting "career" with the Sig.

Find a gun that works with you and strive to master it. With the countless options out there anyone who says they haven't found THEIR gun yet should have their head examined.

hufnagel

06-04-2014, 10:06 AM

beretta? P30? you haz my attentions. :p

Savage Hands

06-04-2014, 10:11 AM

Why'd you put CZ on the list twice?

I love/hate CZ...

JonInWA

06-04-2014, 02:22 PM

Hopefully (and probably), it'll be a great gun. Hopefully, sufficient stocks of magazines might even be available at the get-go.....

But, as others have said, my personal interest if fairly low-I simply don't see what it'll do for me personally that my well proven Gen 3 Glock 17/19/34 don't already do more than satisfactorily for me...

Yeah, it's always fun to be tempted by what might be "the" gun-but a more mature approach is probably simply to make a discerning platform choice, and stick with it, unless there's genuinely a paradigm-changing reason to switch. Since I index and shoot well with my existing Glocks, and have individually set them up to my specific needs successfully, I'm in no particular rush to feel compelled to jump on the HK bandwagon.

Best, Jon

Eternal24k

06-04-2014, 04:32 PM

I just don't get why there are so many people drooling over this yet give the PPQ no attention

ldunnmobile

06-04-2014, 04:58 PM

I think you get a lot more support, both factory and aftermarket, for HK.

JSGlock34

06-04-2014, 05:37 PM

I wonder if the right side slide release is removable? Looks kinda odd.

45dotACP

06-04-2014, 06:23 PM

Interesting...if but a little late to the party.

JSGlock34

06-04-2014, 06:37 PM

https://scontent-1.2914.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10390288_730450986996190_7185873145310376474_n.jpg ?oh=b4a0836b91fb242a317b98bdce12839c&oe=53F6D369

Picture from HK's Facebook page.

Knesek (http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/HK-VP9-9mm-with-Two-15rd-Magazines-M700009A5) is already advertising the VP9 for $650.

5pins

06-04-2014, 06:57 PM

Picture from HK's Facebook page.

Knesek (http://www.knesekguns.com/commercial/HK-VP9-9mm-with-Two-15rd-Magazines-M700009A5) is already advertising the VP9 for $650.

They even let you add it to your cart and go through the checkout.

JHC

06-04-2014, 07:19 PM

$650 would be legit

JV_

06-04-2014, 07:24 PM

but a little late to the party.

That was my thought too, but if it runs well and is accurate, they'd be beating S&W to the finish line...

Kyle Reese

06-04-2014, 07:33 PM

That was my thought too, but if it runs well and is accurate, they'd be beating S&W to the finish line...

Indeed. I'd like to see 'em at under $600, giving Glock, S&W and SIG some very stiff competition. HK has the potential for a real winner here.

hufnagel

06-04-2014, 09:23 PM

JV_

06-05-2014, 03:39 AM

I use those glasses, they are by 3M, and I got them at Home Depot. They are inexpensive and I use them more often than my Rudy Project glasses.

-Sent from Tapatalk

BLR

06-05-2014, 06:24 AM

Indeed. I'd like to see 'em at under $600, giving Glock, S&W and SIG some very stiff competition. HK has the potential for a real winner here.

Do you think they will be able to maintain their reputation at that price point? Or even the one being cited here? That's not very far off M&P prices....

Kyle Reese

06-05-2014, 06:32 AM

Do you think they will be able to maintain their reputation at that price point? Or even the one being cited here? That's not very far off M&P prices....

If the QC standards remain high, absolutely.

BLR

06-05-2014, 06:37 AM

QC is the most expensive part. Drop the price, and somethings gotta give.

Or if they start selling more of them, can they keep up with the QC?

Kyle Reese

06-05-2014, 06:43 AM

QC is the most expensive part. Drop the price, and somethings gotta give.

Or if they start selling more of them, can they keep up with the QC?

I guess that remains to be seen. Call me optimistic, I'm hopeful that HK can deliver an outstanding product at the stated price point.

jetfire

06-05-2014, 06:45 AM

Do you think they will be able to maintain their reputation at that price point? Or even the one being cited here? That's not very far off M&P prices....

Observations from the retail side of the gun thing. While everyone appreciates a good price point, the people in our shop who buy HKs (and to a certain extent Sigs) don't really care what the price tag says. They just want it because it's an HK, and I think a lot of that has to do with their reputation of Teutonic awesomeness.

I think it's sort of a mixed bag, if the gun's great and it works and it's $700 at retail, I don't think it would dent HK's rep as the finest maker of production handguns or whatever. The real problem, at least for the Cletii is how it "feels."

I do eagerly away the glut of used P30s turning up in the for sale section. ;-)

BLR

06-05-2014, 07:01 AM

Not really what I was driving at. Lets say its better than a m&p, but not a p30. Say is halfway in between.

Will that put a dent on the "because HK" drones?

If p30s are 850, and this is 600 wholesale, is the price difference justified? As in, does the simplification jive with the price change?

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

jetfire

06-05-2014, 07:11 AM

If it is that much cheaper, and again we've not seen that borne out yet at actual retail, it almost starts to make sense the more I think it through. The P30 was an entirely new design for HK from the ground up, right? New mags, new sight cuts, new grip, barrel, slide, everything. The VP9 at least theoretically would have some commonality with the P30, because the grip has to be similar since it takes the same mags, the sights are probably the same, and of course it's striker fired.

I don't think the price point being in the 700 range would drive off the "Because HK is the best" types in droves. If anything, I reckon it could end up the HK line like the Boxster is to the Porsche line - scoffed at by some purists, but widely embraced by enthusiasts for its driving characteristics and (relative) affordability.

If it works.