1911 flat wire recoil spring

[cdunn]

while surfing during after Christmas boredom I started reading about the Wilson flat wire recoil spring kit, anyone here using these?

[ToddG]

I'm using one on my 9mm. Actually switched to a 15# Glock spring but the Wilson spring (with two coils cut) worked perfectly well, also. The gun has gone more than 10,000 rounds since putting the spring in and I've seen no indication it needs changing, nor would I expect it to. Wilson estimates 50k service life for a .45, if I recall correctly.

In fact, the biggest problem for me is remembering to replace my firing pin spring since I don't replace the recoil spring every 5k now.

[cdunn]

I didn't see a 9mm kit/spring I was wondering how that worked.I think I'm going to go ahead and order 2 kits

[ToddG]

I didn't see a 9mm kit/spring I was wondering how that worked.I think I'm going to go ahead and order 2 kits

So the first and best advice would be to talk to Wilson Combat. Their customer service is outstanding. Asking me for technical 1911 advice is like asking a 16yo kid who got his first car six months ago for automotive advice.

But fwiw I'm using the same kit they sell for the 5" .45 and it's been spectacular. Wilson recommends cutting 2-3 coils for 9mm; the other option, as mentioned, is to try the various weight Glock springs. I bought 15, 13, and 11. The 13 gave great recoil characteristics but it wasn't always feeding hollowpoints. YMMV as with all things 1911.

[Pistol Pete]

I run the Wilson flat wire kits in my full size Nighthawk .45, Kimber Compact .45, Springfield Champion Operator .45, full size Nighthawk 9mm and full size Springfield 9mm. And while I agree with Todd, I was told by a Wilson rep as well as a gentleman from ISMI springs that the flat wire springs are the same as Glock springs and was told to just replace the one that comes with the kit to the appropriate weight you need for your caliber. I was directed to www.ilovemyglock.com for the Glock springs. I hope this helps.

[cdunn]

I run the Wilson flat wire kits in my full size Nighthawk .45, Kimber Compact .45, Springfield Champion Operator .45, full size Nighthawk 9mm and full size Springfield 9mm. And while I agree with Todd, I was told by a Wilson rep as well as a gentleman from ISMI springs that the flat wire springs are the same as Glock springs and was told to just replace the one that comes with the kit to the appropriate weight you need for your caliber. I was directed to www.ilovemyglock.com for the Glock springs. I hope this helps.

did you trim your Wilson spring? or are you using the glock spring?your running the Wilson kit in your 10-8?

[Pistol Pete]

Yes sir, I'm running the kit in my 10-8 NH. I'm running the 17# spring that came in the kit in it. I'm also running the springs that came with the kit in the compacts. In the full size 9mm's I'm running Glock 17 15# springs.

[Gary1911A1]

I'm running one in my pre Series II Kimber Compact in .45ACP and like it a lot. Recoil feels different and it seem to increase the slide travel as while I haven't tried to measure it, I think the slide comes back further on recoil which in theory should increase reliability.

[cdunn]

I ordered 2 kits one for my 10-8 and one for my 9mm grp,I think I'm going to go with the glock spring first and give it a shot and cut the spring as a last resort.

[cdunn]

what is different between a glock flat spring and a standard spring?nighthawk installs a 10lb standard recoil spring with there 9mm full size 1911 , this from an email from Larry Lyles when he worked there when I was ordering new springs.From a 10 to a 15 is a big change, are the characteristics that different or are you just using that much more powerful of a spring?I'm shooting just FMJ target loads.

[Pistol Pete]

I don't know that there is any difference in the two springs as far as their poundage ratings. However the flat wire has proven much more durable. I've found on both my Springfield and NH 9mm's that I had to adjust my spring weight from what they came with from the manufacturer as both seemed undersprung in my opinion. Before I installed the flat wire kits in them, I ordered 11,13 and 15# springs and tried each to determine what worked best in my guns. Something else I need to mention though is that I began reloading 9mm around this same time and have slowly switched from 115gr to 147gr for competition and the 147gr's reduced recoil characteristics. I hope this helps.

[cdunn]

Ialso ordered those 3 weights.

[tomr]

Couple questions, For Todd, I think,

Sometime back there was a reference to a conversation between you and Bill, (1911Guy) about polishing the ends of the cut Wilson flat wire spring. If I am remembering correctly, have you done that? How or whats the end goal look like?

On the firing pin spring, it has been the standard advice for awhile to replace the firing pin spring when replacing the recoil spring. As most will know conventional Wolff recoil springs come with the firing pin spring included. Its easy to see how with the new flat wire system, the firing pin return spring may get forgotten. How critical is this? Given its task - seemingly rather light duty, by comparison to the recoil or main spring - can the recommended change interval of the fp spring be rethought?

[ToddG]

Sometime back there was a reference to a conversation between you and Bill, (1911Guy) about polishing the ends of the cut Wilson flat wire spring. If I am remembering correctly, have you done that? How or whats the end goal look like?

Bill should address this. I just followed his advice as well as an unskilled monkey can. He actually knows how it's supposed to be done and why.


On the firing pin spring, it has been the standard advice for awhile to replace the firing pin spring when replacing the recoil spring. As most will know conventional Wolff recoil springs come with the firing pin spring included. Its easy to see how with the new flat wire system, the firing pin return spring may get forgotten. How critical is this? Given its task - seemingly rather light duty, by comparison to the recoil or main spring - can the recommended change interval of the fp spring be rethought?

I continue to replace my firing pin spring every 5k and use a heavy duty spring. Again I haven't done any spring rate comparisons but to me it's just very cheap insurance.

[cdunn]

what conventional spring weight were you using before switching to flat spring?I've always used the 10lb that nighthawk recommended,Last night I did a little cleaning and installed an 11lb spring to try.I have an overabundance of springs, a couple more 10's 11's and 12's.I think I plenty ofsprings to use up before the flat spring gets used in the 9mm.

[ToddG]

My Springfield was running a 14# variable Wolff.

[BLR]

Couple questions, For Todd, I think,

Sometime back there was a reference to a conversation between you and Bill, (1911Guy) about polishing the ends of the cut Wilson flat wire spring. If I am remembering correctly, have you done that? How or whats the end goal look like?

On the firing pin spring, it has been the standard advice for awhile to replace the firing pin spring when replacing the recoil spring. As most will know conventional Wolff recoil springs come with the firing pin spring included. Its easy to see how with the new flat wire system, the firing pin return spring may get forgotten. How critical is this? Given its task - seemingly rather light duty, by comparison to the recoil or main spring - can the recommended change interval of the fp spring be rethought?

I'm a little surprised, Tom. I would have put money on you polishing your springs.

Coil springs, and flat wire in particular due to the high surface area, should be polished flat at their ends. I use a 800 grit belt sander, and polish them to the end of the spring is showing contact across about 70-80% of the circumference.

Ever notice your cars valve springs are planar? And the race guys surface grind them. The good bike racers will grind the chassis springs too. I believe the NASCAR guys do too.

Doing so, for a recoil spring, will increase the consistency of the gun in recoil.

Doing so for a hammer/mainspring will make trigger pull more consistent. Wanna guess how many action/trigger jobs have that done? I've yet to see it, even on some very high dollar stuff.

[BLR]

Also, FWIW -

The biggest advantage when using a flat wire spring is NOT that you don't have to change the spring as often, rather it is the increase in closing pressure that you get. This is most important w/ something like a 9mm 1911.

[NETim]

So the flat springs as issued by Wilson, uncut, need to be polished too? On both ends?

[BLR]

So the flat springs as issued by Wilson, uncut, need to be polished too? On both ends?

Need? No.

[ToddG]

So the flat springs as issued by Wilson, uncut, need to be polished too? On both ends?

You can't ask engineers questions in that manner because you'll get goofy answers. Allow me to help...

Bill, would the Wilson flat wire spring, as it comes from Wilson, benefit from polishing per your advice above? Also, do you polish both ends?

(answer is yes & yes, I believe)

[BLR]

You can't ask engineers questions in that manner because you'll get goofy answers. Allow me to help...

Bill, would the Wilson flat wire spring, as it comes from Wilson, benefit from polishing per your advice above? Also, do you polish both ends?

(answer is yes & yes, I believe)

Yes and yes.

You don't need to, I always use closed end sprigns that are polished. But I'm special.

[NETim]

Okay. Thanks!

[Pistol Pete]

what conventional spring weight were you using before switching to flat spring?I've always used the 10lb that nighthawk recommended,Last night I did a little cleaning and installed an 11lb spring to try.I have an overabundance of springs, a couple more 10's 11's and 12's.I think I plenty ofsprings to use up before the flat spring gets used in the 9mm.

I was running a 12# Wolff variable spring then switched to a 14# before installing the flat wire kit. I started with the 13# Glock spring then switched to the 15# shooting my 147gr reloads.

[tomr]

I'm a little surprised, Tom. I would have put money on you polishing your springs.

Coil springs, and flat wire in particular due to the high surface area, should be polished flat at their ends. I use a 800 grit belt sander, and polish them to the end of the spring is showing contact across about 70-80% of the circumference.

Yea Bill, sometimes I surprise even myself. Got caught in a feedback loop that went something like flat wire, round wire, flat wire, round wire. Got so dizzy forgot about the ends. My shop teacher would be very disappointed....

[Pistol Pete]

You two gentlemen have piqued my interest in polishing the spring ends! Any chance of a write up and pics???

[cdunn]

You two gentlemen have piqued my interest in polishing the spring ends! Any chance of a write up and pics???

this

[ToddG]

From tomr:

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1189.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1190.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1195.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1196.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1199.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1201.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1203.jpg

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1204.jpg

[BLR]

Whatcha looking for? I can go on for days about springs and spring dynamics. Literally.

[NETim]

Whatcha looking for? I can go on for days about springs and spring dynamics. Literally.

Can you explain in layman's terms why a flat wire spring has a longer service life than the ordinary coil spring?

I'm gonna guess that stress is more evenly distributed across the length of the spring.

[tomr]

Whatcha looking for? I can go on for days about springs and spring dynamics. Literally.

OK, here's one for you. In picture 1 above we see the back end of both a round wire and flat wire recoil spring. In picture 3 we're looking at the front end. The flat wire spring is identical front or back with a mostly "closed" end. The conventional round wire has a "closed" end intended to go at the back, while its front is "open". The fellow who built my 1911 Bullseye pistol, while working on my Model 41 Smith, advised me that while this orientation is proper for a 1911, with the M41, the reverse is true. Whats this about?

[BLR]

Can you explain in layman's terms why a flat wire spring has a longer service life than the ordinary coil spring?

I'm gonna guess that stress is more evenly distributed across the length of the spring.

Service life comes from the total amount of strain the cross section of spring sees. Round wire coil springs are loaded primarily in torsion, not bending. The outer portion of spring sees more strain than the inner portion.

Flat wire springs see less strain than round wire.

Tom, the open end always points toward the part that is free to rotate. On a 1911, that's the recoil spring plug, on a M41, thats the recoil guide rod. If neither end is free to rotate, a both ends need to be closed and polished.

Stress distribution in a coil spring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBpYr6uSQkc

[Pistol Pete]

Whatcha looking for? I can go on for days about springs and spring dynamics. Literally.

So just the end that contacts the guide rod needs attention? I assume this is so the spring is making equal contact with the face of the guide rod? If I'm using a flat wire spring, should I do both ends so it makes equal contact inside the plug as well? While I'm asking and I mean no offense , but is this just a personal preference thing or is there some kind of scientific proof it improves function?

[BLR]

Yes, even contact with a spring is key to consistent compression, which is key to consistent movement in recoil. It's a small, but noticeable detail. I know Todd Jarrett has this done on his springs. I don't know about anyone else.

Improves function? Would depend on your definition of function.

I notice a difference in consistency in recoil. I believe Todd did too. Doesn't mean I'm good enough to make use of it, but even still, I don't like things that aren't "right" if they could be with just a little effort.

On a 1911, the closed end goes on the guide rod, the open (if there is one) into the plug. If it's an open end, there isn't a whole lot of point in polishing that end. Might want to dress the end though.

[Pistol Pete]

Thanks for the information and education! I'll give this a try because like you, why not take an extra minute and make things right?! ; )

[Clobbersaurus]

Very interesting thread.

Excuse my ignorance, but when you cut off 2 coils of the flat wire spring (for use in a 9mm for example), how do you polish to ends to maintain a 70-80% contact? It seems from the pic below that with no tension the flat wire springs have a compressed end? Cutting off two coils would lose this finished end. How would one polish a cut spring to maintain consistent contact? Sorry, maybe I'm missing something?

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1190.jpg

[Pistol Pete]

I would think installing the cut end towards the front would work? Thereby maintaining the factory finished end resting against the guide rod like you started with.

[Clobbersaurus]

I would think installing the cut end towards the front would work? Thereby maintaining the factory finished end resting against the guide rod like you started with.

Maybe I'm just over thinking it. I thought maybe polishing both ends would be beneficial. Thanks for the response.

[tomr]

Very interesting thread.

Excuse my ignorance, but when you cut off 2 coils of the flat wire spring (for use in a 9mm for example), how do you polish to ends to maintain a 70-80% contact? It seems from the pic below that with no tension the flat wire springs have a compressed end? Cutting off two coils would lose this finished end. How would one polish a cut spring to maintain consistent contact? Sorry, maybe I'm missing something?

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1190.jpg

Same way as pictured. Wont be as closed or flat as with factory closed end. Based on Bill's 1/8 comment above, "Tom, the open end always points toward the part that is free to rotate. On a 1911, that's the recoil spring plug, on a M41, thats the recoil guide rod. If neither end is free to rotate, a both ends need to be closed and polished." If its quite open, when you're done, orient forward. Believe Todd did this near the end of tuning his Springfield 9MM. Perhaps he can comment.

[cdunn]

well all of my new stuff has arrived to check out, 2 wilson kits and 3 glock springs 11,13,and 15I'm going to try to get to the range tomorrow to try 11lbs. in my 9mm nighthawk.

[faksen]

I have a S&W 1911 Pro in 9 mm with long guide rod and plug. Do i have to change guide rod and plug to use Wilson flat springs ?

[NETim]

I have a S&W 1911 Pro in 9 mm with long guide rod and plug. Do i have to change guide rod and plug to use Wilson flat springs ?

I think so. The Wilson kit comes with a small diameter GI style guide rod. Call Wilson to be sure.

[tomr]

I have a S&W 1911 Pro in 9 mm with long guide rod and plug. Do i have to change guide rod and plug to use Wilson flat springs ?

Most Probably yes on the guide rod, not the plug. The spring's inner diameter is smaller than a conventional round wire RS. So you'll need a plug with corresponding smaller outside diameter on the shaft that rides inside the spring. The outside diameter of the spring is the same as round wire so the plug should be fine. Wilson Combat sells these.