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Packy
06-05-2011, 08:19 AM
This is my first post, but been visiting the Pistol TRaining and this Forum long before..
Here goes my question:
Now that the G17 Gen 4 has issues on reliability, will a CZ SPO1 Shadow a better choice for pistol training? Talking about the ZED.
Thank you.

JDM
06-05-2011, 09:05 AM
How about an older (pre 2009??) Gen 3 17.

Kyle Reese
06-05-2011, 09:12 AM
Zed (CZ SPO1 Shadow) is less durable, more expensive and offers no real benefit over a 9mm Glock platform, IMHO.

JHC
06-05-2011, 10:35 AM
"Zed is dead baby. Zed is dead."

JHC
06-05-2011, 10:39 AM
Actually, I have no experience with CZ pistols; I just couldn't resist having just re-watched Pulp Fiction last night. I've long wanted to give the CZ platform a good workout but back off each time I spend an hour reading up on them on forums including the CZ specific forums. They sound like a hobby game gun and I want my hobby game guns to be perfectly capable of being hard use defensive firearms.

ranburr
06-05-2011, 02:33 PM
One will be as good as the other. I have one CZ 75 with over 70k rounds thru it. If you can't keep a CZ running, it is you and not the gun. Glock pretty much set the standard for plastic reliability. I think the issues with the Gen4s is probably worked out. I would get whatever one was cheaper.

JV_
06-05-2011, 02:41 PM
If you can't keep a CZ running, it is you and not the gun.I disagree with you, again.

It's like you're the antiJV. You and I have opinions that are 180 degrees out of phase.

LittleLebowski
06-05-2011, 02:47 PM
One will be as good as the other. I have one CZ 75 with over 70k rounds thru it. If you can't keep a CZ running, it is you and not the gun. Glock pretty much set the standard for plastic reliability. I think the issues with the Gen4s is probably worked out. I would get whatever one was cheaper.

You really need to read more on this site regarding Gen4 Glocks. Also, being able to keep a gun running is a not measure of reliability in my book. Technical skills do not make up for design or manufacturing problems.

What classes did you take the CZs to?

Suggested links below for your enlightenment.

Gen4 G19 problems (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?571-Gen4-19-The-problems-have-started-)

Gen4 G17 problems (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?346-pistol-training.com-2011-Endurance-Test-Gun)

CZs in training (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218)

Slavex
06-05-2011, 04:54 PM
Being the owner of the gun mentioned in the links above I think I can provide some small insight into its failings and also Shadows as a whole.

The "Zed" gun failed because of me. I didn't do proper maintenance on the gun while overseas (had other things on my mind beyond competing) and failed to notice the extractor had broken, as I had two issues with it over there. Upon return to Canada, I buried my dad and jumped straight into 4 days of shooting with Todd.

The first two days weren't bad for me, a couple other CZ pattern guns did have issues, some of that can traced to reloads, other to the crap 10 round mags we get up here and other to bad trigger work. My gun decided to truly cave in for the second set of two days (AFHF). The fact it ran as good as it did with a broken extractor impresses me more than anything. Since replacement of the extractor it has gone through an easy 10,000 rounds with no issues. I've since replaced the extractor again, nothing wrong with the old one, but I figured why tempt fate. That gun is now relegated to backup as I'm running a new Shadow, 65,000 rounds and change with only one broken extractor, one broken firing spring (yay for full auto fun) and I thinks its due the rest. I've for another Shadow coming, soon hopefully, so the old girl can truly retire.

The biggest failing I've seen of all the Shadows I've seen is the extractor spring. They need to be replaced regularly if using factory or once if you use a Wolffe one.

Competitively speaking they are the gun of choice in IPSC right now (World not USPSA so much), if you look at the results of any major matches CZ dominates the Production division. they run and run and run so long as you do your part, nothing crazy, clean every couple thousand rounds, keep it wet with lube if you don't and replace the springs when you're supposed to. They have the nicest trigger setup going for DA/SA pistols right now, and cost the same as a Glock. All win in my books.

jlw
06-05-2011, 07:43 PM
I'm a "Glock guy" although I prefer the Gen2 and Gen3 pistols. I have long been tempted by a CZ 75B SA. I have a shot at a really good deal on one right now, but I am trying to decide if there will be enough improvement to justify the money. I've only run a couple of mags through a CZ 75, and I found it to be very accurate, but I don't know if there would be any corresponding increase in speed.

ranburr
06-05-2011, 08:53 PM
You really need to read more on this site regarding Gen4 Glocks. Also, being able to keep a gun running is a not measure of reliability in my book. Technical skills do not make up for design or manufacturing problems.

What classes did you take the CZs to?

Suggested links below for your enlightenment.

Gen4 G19 problems (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?571-Gen4-19-The-problems-have-started-)

Well aware of the Gen 4 issues. I am hearing less and less about them. I am confident that Glock is on top of the issues. There are no design or manufacturing issues as farm as the CZ75 goes. I have used them in numerous classes, including Suarez, Hackathorn, Davidson (Tac Pro), and others. Never had a problem with them. Then again, I have never had issues running 1911s or even what is considered the dreaded XD. As Paul Howe put it, "it is the singer, not the song".

Gen4 G17 problems (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?346-pistol-training.com-2011-Endurance-Test-Gun)

CZs in training (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218)

ranburr
06-05-2011, 11:53 PM
I disagree with you, again.

It's like you're the antiJV. You and I have opinions that are 180 degrees out of phase.

I'm fine with that.;)

Packy
06-06-2011, 04:41 AM
Thank you guys. Guess so many people here don't give the ZED a chance. Jeff Cooper like this gun thought.

JV_
06-06-2011, 05:45 AM
I'm fine with that.;)

Yea, me too. If we all shot the same thing, use the same accessories, and didn't challenge our ways - it'd be a pretty boring place.

JV_
06-06-2011, 07:04 AM
Guess so many people here don't give the ZED a chance.For me, it's not about "giving them a chance". I've watched too many people have issues. It's usually been an extraction issue, and the factory usually tries a few things:

Replace the Extractor Spring
Polishing Chamber
"Adjusting" the extractor

At least they send call tags.

One of the return invoices even listed that they put in a Wolff (XP) extractor spring ... I've seen posts on other forums that show similar experiences. I've never seen a factory advertise their use of aftermarket parts to cure their issue.

Packy
06-06-2011, 07:10 AM
For me, it's not about "giving them a chance". I've watched too many people have issues. It's usually been an extraction issue, and the factory usually tries a few things:

Replace the Extractor Spring
Polishing Chamber
"Adjusting" the extractor

At least they send call tags.

One of the return invoices even listed that they put in a Wolff (XP) extractor spring ... I've seen posts on other forums that show similar experiences. I've never seen a factory advertise their use of aftermarket parts to cure their issue.

Thanks for the lead, Sir.

TCinVA
06-06-2011, 07:27 AM
Thank you guys. Guess so many people here don't give the ZED a chance. Jeff Cooper like this gun thought.

Remember the context of that endorsement, though...

At the time the CZ was an exotic pistol few had any first-hand experience with. Semi-automatic pistols took a distant second to revolvers as serious use handguns and there weren't a whole lot of really good, really reliable options on the market. The ammo designs of the time were sub-optimal.

That led to some experiments...

http://10mmman.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/brenten.jpg

There was even an official Gunsite endorsed Bren Ten Cooper personally endorsed.

...only they didn't work very well, breaking frequently (with replacement parts scarce or impossible to get) or not working out of the box because of poor QC.

Mr. Cooper's recommendation, well intentioned though it may have been, simply didn't work out to be the best answer. The same applies to his view that there wasn't much point in semi-autos other than the 1911. Col. Cooper was an innovator who did a great deal for our understanding of what handguns are for. Nevertheless, he wasn't right about everything. We've learned a thing or two since Cooper and Jordan were dominant voices.

The CZ no longer lives in a world where your choices are an expensive, finicky 1911, a fragile DA/SA pistol with a trigger pull from hell, or a revolver. It lives in the Glock world now. It's a hell of a lot harder to compete.

If someone wants a CZ because they like them then my advice would be the same as for those who like 1911's better than anything else: It's your time and your money. Do as you wish...but do yourself the favor of looking at the weapon critically, figuring out what it takes to make it run reliably, and then make that a priority. Handguns you carry or have nearby as a tool of high intensity personal interaction with your fellow man should be regarded first and foremost as a tool for launching XXX grains of kinetic pacification into the anatomy of bad people.

The simple truth of the matter is that some weapons are better at that job than others. Refusing to acknowledge the potential shortcomings of a purchase is setting yourself up for failure.

Jay Cunningham
06-06-2011, 07:39 AM
Col. Cooper was an innovator who did a great deal for our understanding of what handguns are for. Nevertheless, he wasn't right about everything.

:eek:

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:cool:

jslaker
06-06-2011, 09:10 AM
Col. Cooper was an innovator who did a great deal for our understanding of what handguns are for.

So much truth in this statement. There's no arguing that Cooper was responsible for a sea change in the thinking about handguns during his day. At the same time, I think you'd almost have to willfully ignorant not to accept that much of what he preached is no longer considered best-practice today for a multitude of reasons. Not because he was wrong, per se, but because the world has changed.

Why people that make the "but Jeff Cooper said" appeal to authority don't see that this same applies to his choice of firearms is beyond me.

Kyle Reese
06-06-2011, 09:44 AM
Also bear in mind that during the time Cooper was extolling the virtues of the CZ 75, the Cold War was still raging. The CZ was forged from the very finest Unobtanium (for most Americans) and existed only in the pages of Soldier of Fortune, G&A and Cooper's writings.

A few did trickle in from Canada, as well as American servicemen buying them in West Germany and bringing them back, but they were very hard to get.


People have a tendency to want what they cannot have.

Slavex
06-06-2011, 07:34 PM
If we were allowed carry guns up here in Canada, my G19 would be what I carried, but I'd still compete with a Shadow. I see a lot of them at matches, they don't fail anymore than any other gun, if they did, competitors wouldn't be using them. Yes the extractor spring does suck as I mentioned before. But the gain you get with the superb trigger more than makes up for that little wobble.

JHC
06-06-2011, 07:44 PM
If we were allowed carry guns up here in Canada, my G19 would be what I carried, but I'd still compete with a Shadow. I see a lot of them at matches, they don't fail anymore than any other gun, if they did, competitors wouldn't be using them. Yes the extractor spring does suck as I mentioned before. But the gain you get with the superb trigger more than makes up for that little wobble.

If I wanted a good game gun under $1K how would you rank their lineup?

Slavex
06-07-2011, 12:12 AM
Right now I would say the Shadow is the only gun for Production in IPSC. For IDPA the shorter dustcover version (to meet weight) is the one I'd use.
With IPSC likely reducing first shot to 4.4lbs and SA to 2.2lbs for 2012 you find Glocks coming back into the sport as a competitive gun, but the benefit of a wicked Single action and a buttery smooth DA make the CZ the leader in my books. If Beretta would get their heads out of their ass and redo the Elite line you might see people other than Ben shooting them.
There really isn't much other choice right now, especially for under $1000. In the US you also get the better mags (full capacity vs our crap 10 rounders).

fuse
06-07-2011, 04:58 AM
With IPSC likely reducing first shot to 4.4lbs and SA to 2.2lbs for 2012 you find Glocks coming back into the sport as a competitive gun

Explain this

Slavex
06-07-2011, 11:17 AM
Not sure what you're asking for, but I'll try.
First off there is a proposal to be voted on by the IPSC Assembly to reduce DA trigger pull to 2kg (4.4lbs) and introduce a SA trigger pull to 1kg (2.2lbs). This being done for the apparent reason to reduce the "pucker factor" for a number of striker fired guns that barely make the 5lb minimum currently in place (Vince's words, not mine). Reality is, Glock and other striker fired guns have lost a lot of market share, or not gained much, to the CZ pattern guns in the last 4 or 5 years. The advantage of having sub 2lb SA triggers (or just over 2lbs) after the 5lb DA is something a lot of shooters believe in, and the results in the international matches seems to support it. The CZ Shadow basically dominates Production Division right now. Another step IPSC took to ease the pain was to introduce the 15 rounds in a mag rule for PD. CZ was selling 21 (I think it was 21) round mags internationally with the Shadow. This was a huge step up from 17 in a Glock or 15 in a Beretta etc. but was seen as a strictly "gaming" type advancement or "magazine capacity race" and as such IPSC shut it down. Apparently that didn't help enough though, so the new trigger pull proposal reared it's ugly head again this year.
Whilst shooters like Dave S., Ben S., Robert V. and such can run guns other than CZ's competitively at the top levels, it seems like more and more shooters are/were picking the CZ due to the reasons above, and IPSC doesn't want to see PD be a single gun division.

DannyZRC
06-07-2011, 01:39 PM
don't you hate when racing organizations get in the way of progress?

beltjones
06-07-2011, 02:01 PM
If IPSC got rid of the trigger pull weight requirement and allowed the Glock 34 I dare say you would see a lot more people using Glocks. Could they beat the outstanding Czech production shooters using Shadows? Maybe... But the best American Production shooter won't shoot IPSC Production division any more so who knows?

My own input on Shadow vs. 4G is that I own a Shadow and like it a lot. It's not better than my G34, but it's a very fun gun to shoot. I'll never in my life own a G4 Glock.

Slavex
06-07-2011, 09:59 PM
Tossing the trigger pull weight and allowing guns like the 34 in would be counter to the original intent of PD internationally.
If guns like the 34 were allowed you'd just see longer slide and barrel combinations showing up on DA/SA guns. Get rid of trigger pull weights and we would have Standard Division.
I've always said the solution to a "Stock" category would be match guns provided by the Match, at least for big matches. Everyone will tinker with their gun no matter what rules are on place. Some people will tinker within those rules, others won't.

beltjones
06-07-2011, 10:15 PM
Tossing the trigger pull weight and allowing guns like the 34 in would be counter to the original intent of PD internationally.
If guns like the 34 were allowed you'd just see longer slide and barrel combinations showing up on DA/SA guns. Get rid of trigger pull weights and we would have Standard Division.
I've always said the solution to a "Stock" category would be match guns provided by the Match, at least for big matches. Everyone will tinker with their gun no matter what rules are on place. Some people will tinker within those rules, others won't.

Now that would be interesting. It would be pretty easy to do that here in the states - you just get a manufacturer to sponsor the match and provide guns at wholesale - say 150 competitors. Then you charge each competitor a typical match fee plus the wholesale price for the gun. It would be more expensive than a typical match, but you would get a gun out of it!

Anyway, given the rules of IPSC the CZ is the dominant platform. Given the rules of USPSA the Glock is the dominant platform (though CZ and M&P are making inroads for sure).

Slavex
06-08-2011, 12:03 AM
You wouldn't even need to go that far. The host organization could buy 100 guns and simply make them available for major matches with a small rental fee attached to the match fee.
I would expect to see CZ getting more and more popular in USPSA, although having top notch factory shooters for Smith and Glock being more visible in the US it will probably be a slow thing.

ranburr
06-08-2011, 01:44 AM
Matt Mink and angus Hobbel are a couple of champion shooters on the CZ shooting team.

Slavex
06-08-2011, 05:20 AM
Huh, somehow missed that Matt was shooting a CZ, Angus I know pretty good (the man can not only shoot awesome, but try keeping up with him at a party Ieeeeee).
It will be interesting to see who takes the top spot at the Worlds this year in PD. I don't see it being Adam, Dave is shooting Standard, so the top 10 will be an interesting mix. But I'd bet there will only be one striker fired gun in the top 10 maybe two.

beltjones
06-08-2011, 08:23 AM
Matt Mink and angus Hobbel are a couple of champion shooters on the CZ shooting team.

Also check out Matt Hopkins who just made GM, and Kale Garretson. Kale isn't on the CZ team, but he has been on a tear this year. I don't think he has had a non first-place finish in any matches thus far this year.

Slavex
06-08-2011, 12:06 PM
that's the problem with not shooting in the US, I don't get to keep up with everyone down there.

Packy
06-08-2011, 05:51 PM
Thanks for the input, i am giving the ZED Shadow a try...

CK1
06-16-2011, 03:48 PM
The Shadow is WAY better gun IMO having run the crap out of both.

Against the Gen4's it's really a non-starter, they're crap, but even against Gen3's, short of living on a deserted island with no ability for infrequent upkeep and access to a couple parts that need to be inspected and possibly changed out fairly infrequently, the Shadow is the better piece hands down.

Thanks to RobG for setting the record straight a little bit about the Shadows, from what I've seen on a few of the uber-tactical-guy/keyboard-ninja gun forums there are more than a few guys who've taken ToddG's thoughts from a while back concerning the CZ's as gospel, and have been going on and on about how they're inferior to their Glock/M&P/H&K/whatevers without having ever had any first-hand experience shooting/using one.

Seriously, with the exception of Beltjones' comment, I haven't heard or seen of a single shooter picking a Glock over a Shadow going back-to-back. The arguments for and against remind me of what tends to come up when guys are comparing AR's vs. AK's: AR's tend to be more accurate and have better handling characteristics do to being more ergo-friendly while AK's tend to be more reliable and require less maintenance at the expense of some of the enhanced performance... I'd say the Shadows are the handgun equivalent of the newer quality piston-AR's: they strike a better balance for some people as they've got all the performance one could want in a package with almost of all of the reliability of their less-refined friends.

Do they require a little more attention than a Glock? Yes.

Is a Glock on the same footing in terms of trigger-quality and inherent-to-the-platform accuracy? HELL NO.

Is a Shadow closer to the reliability of a Glock than a Glock is to the upper-eschelon performance of a Shadow? HELL YES.

Seriously, having run thousands upon thousands of rounds through both, if things like which is a better gun to drive your truck over or throw out of a helicopter matter more to you than which is better to actually shoot the Glock is the better piece, but in all other terms and probably for everyone else the Shadow is the one ;).

goneal
07-21-2011, 08:46 PM
The Shadow is WAY better gun IMO having run the crap out of both.

Against the Gen4's it's really a non-starter, they're crap, but even against Gen3's, short of living on a deserted island with no ability for infrequent upkeep and access to a couple parts that need to be inspected and possibly changed out fairly infrequently, the Shadow is the better piece hands down.

Thanks to RobG for setting the record straight a little bit about the Shadows, from what I've seen on a few of the uber-tactical-guy/keyboard-ninja gun forums there are more than a few guys who've taken ToddG's thoughts from a while back concerning the CZ's as gospel, and have been going on and on about how they're inferior to their Glock/M&P/H&K/whatevers without having ever had any first-hand experience shooting/using one.

Seriously, with the exception of Beltjones' comment, I haven't heard or seen of a single shooter picking a Glock over a Shadow going back-to-back. The arguments for and against remind me of what tends to come up when guys are comparing AR's vs. AK's: AR's tend to be more accurate and have better handling characteristics do to being more ergo-friendly while AK's tend to be more reliable and require less maintenance at the expense of some of the enhanced performance... I'd say the Shadows are the handgun equivalent of the newer quality piston-AR's: they strike a better balance for some people as they've got all the performance one could want in a package with almost of all of the reliability of their less-refined friends.

Do they require a little more attention than a Glock? Yes.

Is a Glock on the same footing in terms of trigger-quality and inherent-to-the-platform accuracy? HELL NO.

Is a Shadow closer to the reliability of a Glock than a Glock is to the upper-eschelon performance of a Shadow? HELL YES.

Seriously, having run thousands upon thousands of rounds through both, if things like which is a better gun to drive your truck over or throw out of a helicopter matter more to you than which is better to actually shoot the Glock is the better piece, but in all other terms and probably for everyone else the Shadow is the one ;).

You're making way too much sense!!

beltjones
07-21-2011, 09:46 PM
The Shadow is WAY better gun IMO having run the crap out of both.

Against the Gen4's it's really a non-starter, they're crap, but even against Gen3's, short of living on a deserted island with no ability for infrequent upkeep and access to a couple parts that need to be inspected and possibly changed out fairly infrequently, the Shadow is the better piece hands down.

Thanks to RobG for setting the record straight a little bit about the Shadows, from what I've seen on a few of the uber-tactical-guy/keyboard-ninja gun forums there are more than a few guys who've taken ToddG's thoughts from a while back concerning the CZ's as gospel, and have been going on and on about how they're inferior to their Glock/M&P/H&K/whatevers without having ever had any first-hand experience shooting/using one.

Seriously, with the exception of Beltjones' comment, I haven't heard or seen of a single shooter picking a Glock over a Shadow going back-to-back. The arguments for and against remind me of what tends to come up when guys are comparing AR's vs. AK's: AR's tend to be more accurate and have better handling characteristics do to being more ergo-friendly while AK's tend to be more reliable and require less maintenance at the expense of some of the enhanced performance... I'd say the Shadows are the handgun equivalent of the newer quality piston-AR's: they strike a better balance for some people as they've got all the performance one could want in a package with almost of all of the reliability of their less-refined friends.

Do they require a little more attention than a Glock? Yes.

Is a Glock on the same footing in terms of trigger-quality and inherent-to-the-platform accuracy? HELL NO.

Is a Shadow closer to the reliability of a Glock than a Glock is to the upper-eschelon performance of a Shadow? HELL YES.

Seriously, having run thousands upon thousands of rounds through both, if things like which is a better gun to drive your truck over or throw out of a helicopter matter more to you than which is better to actually shoot the Glock is the better piece, but in all other terms and probably for everyone else the Shadow is the one ;).

I've run plenty of rounds through both as well. I also know of at least of a few shooters who have dabbled with the CZ - and ran straight back to Glock.

But I'm not a fanboy. I'll call them both out for their faults.

CZ's are definitely more accurate, and in SA their triggers are awesome. No doubt about it. To say they're as reliable as a Glock (Gen4's notwithstanding) is insane - even if you caveat it by saying they require a little more maintenance. I've seen hundreds of Glocks run in competition, and I can count on one hand the ones I've seen fail. I can't count how many CZs I've seen fail, and I can find lots of videos of them taking dumps. There are a few things that will make anyone lose credibility - one is to say your Gen4 Glock is the best gun Glock has ever made, and another is that the CZ is as reliable as Glock.

Other issues are that the stock Shadow barrel doesn't handle 147gr rounds very well. The popular thing here is to use an Aussie barrel in the Shadow - even though it's illegal in USPSA Prod division - in order to stabilize the bigger bullets. Glock trigger springs are known to break every now and then, but CZ trigger springs, firing pin springs, slide stops, extractors, and extractor springs are all known to fail.

Glocks ergos are much maligned, but CZs have their issues as well. Most top Shadow shooters swap out the stock safeties for the low-profile Rami safeties.
One thing that CZ has way, way over Glock is that they are actually trying to make their product better, whereas Glock hasn't had a meaningful innovation since the G34/35. I mean, the Gen4 is crap. The new style Gen3 frames without the index cutout on the magwell are worse than the old design with the cutout. The RTF2 was a good idea, but they put no marketing support behind it. However, CZ has the variants of the Shadow, the 75 Shadow, the CTS, and the new Dan Wesson Havoc and Mayhem are all awesome.

Obviously CZs have benefits in spades if so many people are using them - and the number of users is growing. And I have no problem with people singing their praises - obviously on this forum especially the CZ needs some fans to speak up. But let's at least be honest about what we know is true, and that is that few guns equal a Gen3 Glock's reliability, and a CZ isn't one of them.

Slavex
07-21-2011, 11:47 PM
All I shoot is 147gr bullets. All I needed was a taller front sight. Its the standard barrel. Today at the range during slow fire accuracy at 25m I shot 3 10 round groups. Smallest was 2.25inches, largest was 2.75. All were done off hand. 147's shoot fine out of them.
I've now added 350 rounds to the total I published yesterday in the 2000 round thread, without cleaning or lube.

CK1
07-22-2011, 07:55 AM
There are a few things that will make anyone lose credibility - one is to say your Gen4 Glock is the best gun Glock has ever made, and another is that the CZ is as reliable as Glock.

Other issues are that the stock Shadow barrel doesn't handle 147gr rounds very well. The popular thing here is to use an Aussie barrel in the Shadow - even though it's illegal in USPSA Prod division - in order to stabilize the bigger bullets. Glock trigger springs are known to break every now and then, but CZ trigger springs, firing pin springs, slide stops, extractors, and extractor springs are all known to fail.

Obviously CZs have benefits in spades if so many people are using them - and the number of users is growing. And I have no problem with people singing their praises - obviously on this forum especially the CZ needs some fans to speak up. But let's at least be honest about what we know is true, and that is that few guns equal a Gen3 Glock's reliability, and a CZ isn't one of them.

Look, first saying something you don't agree with doesn't cause me to lose credibility, maybe in your eyes alone, but reign yourself in a little, that's a pretty pompous view and adds zero to any reasonable discussion (not to mention, dead wrong). Besides, I never said they were as reliable as a Gen3 Glock, I said "close to" as reliable, which is a perfectly reasonable and true statement (but who knows, these days with Glock having forgot how to manufacture quality extractors and all the bad ones f'ing up the late model Gen3's, the CZ's could be more reliable on average than the Glocks now).

I don't want you to lose credibility or anything, so you should know that your theory on the Aussie Shadow barrel, CZ's, and 147gr bullets is nonsense... 147's run fine, the guns run fine, some guys are better at shooting than reloading, that's all it is.

You are correct about which parts in the CZ's that go south, but fail isn't really the correct term, those parts are consumables and require attention at regular intervals, properly maintained and parts being replaced when they're supposed to be, it's highly unlikely a guy will experience a failure, maintained correctly it's probably about as likely as a Glock breaking a trigger-spring.

I don't know what you're judging your observations on, but remember they're just your own personal observations, not hard fact, and it depends on the "pool" you're looking at. In my area I shoot IDPA, USPSA, 3-gun, etc. there's a match or two within driving distance every single weekend and I hit a lot of them, the CZ's that are fielded, while certainly a smaller percentage compared to Gen3 Glocks, hold their own and run extremely well, I personally haven't seen a malf that was not related to bad ammo or botched reloading, if anything there are far more malfs witnessed with Gen3 Glocks in my area, especially if you're counting limp-wrist-related jams... part of the equation is that the CZ's tend to be found in the hands of more experienced shooters and the Gen3's are in the hands of more beginners.

in my own experience, a Shadow can be beat on just as hard as a Gen3, it just needs to be cleaned every few thousand rounds and certain parts need to be changed out now and then, that's it, honest.

JHC
07-22-2011, 08:24 AM
Everybody is relying on their own observations. And at the risk of destroying my credibility (don't know if I could live with that!) we have four Gen 4 9mms that have run better than Todd's - his gun is no slouch since a part swap - however my primary has printed 1.5" 25 yd groups (see avatar). We have a total of seven 2010 era LCI etc Glock 9mms here that run magnificently and have out of the box.

Both nice guns. Neither perfect guns, not every copy anyway. Just a few rounds through a rental SP-01 recently. Pretty nice pistol. Have yet to handle a Shadow.

Slavex
07-22-2011, 09:07 AM
I don't think I'd ever try and suggest that the Shadow could take the same abuse as a Glock and keep running. If I as taking a fighting pistol class my Glock 19 would go with me. Mostly because my Shadow has a fibre optic front sight and the rods break easily. I'm considering putting night sights on my #3 gun, and then maybe using it for such classes.
Glock has built a pistol that until recently was the pure epitome of toughness, that no one could match. However it gained that toughness at the expense of some frills. Once people started doing internal work on parts, reliability went down. The same could be said of most 1911's as well, the more you tinker the more you open yourself up to problems.
The Shadow was designed as a game gun and as such probably needs a bit more care and attention. Slide stops should be replaced regularly (not sure on the actual recommended number for that) as should springs in both the gun and mags. But this is true for all guns honestly, replace parts on schedule and you should be fine.
I regularly see guns of all types fail at matches, most common are Open 1911's, followed by 1911's in Standard. Then its pretty much a crapshoot in Production, sometimes it'll be a Glock, or a CZ or a GP6 or whatnot,
If the trigger weight rule gets passed at the WS I expect to see Glocks back in large numbers at matches on a regular basis.I don't think I'd ever try and suggest that the Shadow could take the same abuse as a Glock and keep running. If I as taking a fighting pistol class my Glock 19 would go with me. Mostly because my Shadow has a fibre optic front sight and the rods break easily. I'm considering putting night sights on my #3 gun, and then maybe using it for such classes.
Glock has built a pistol that until recently was the pure epitome of toughness, that no one could match. However it gained that toughness at the expense of some frills. Once people started doing internal work on parts, reliability went down. The same could be said of most 1911's as well, the more you tinker the more you open yourself up to problems.
The Shadow was designed as a game gun and as such probably needs a bit more care and attention. Slide stops should be replaced regularly (not sure on the actual recommended number for that) as should springs in both the gun and mags. But this is true for all guns honestly, replace parts on schedule and you should be fine.
I regularly see guns of all types fail at matches, most common are Open 1911's, followed by 1911's in Standard. Then its pretty much a crapshoot in Production, sometimes it'll be a Glock, or a CZ or a GP6 or whatnot,
If the trigger weight rule gets passed at the WS I expect to see Glocks back in large numbers at matches on a regular basis.

JHC
07-22-2011, 10:47 AM
How is that GP6 panning out? I don't think I've ever seen one yet. Looked promising.

1986s4
07-22-2011, 12:05 PM
Get what you want. The Glocks I've tried always worked, I just didn't shoot them well. Every CZ I've ever had worked too. I always replaced the extractor spring with a Wolf XP unit. I have one CZ left and judging from the bullets I've bought over the last 6 years it must have 20,000+ rounds through it with excellent reliability. Primarily a games gun now, I have taken it to training sessions where 900 rounds were expended in 5 or so hours, followed up by a IDPA match the next day, no cleaning. Mine have worked YMMV.

Slavex
07-22-2011, 04:18 PM
The GP6 shoot well enough it seems and the trigger is excellent, especially the SA trigger. But talk about ugly (IMHO). Guys I know who have them love them. But they really haven't caught on much up here.

Packy
07-26-2011, 11:18 PM
I'm a "Glock guy" although I prefer the Gen2 and Gen3 pistols. I have long been tempted by a CZ 75B SA. I have a shot at a really good deal on one right now, but I am trying to decide if there will be enough improvement to justify the money. I've only run a couple of mags through a CZ 75, and I found it to be very accurate, but I don't know if there would be any corresponding increase in speed.

Yes there is.. BEcause it is more ergo to shoot, your npoa/index is easily acquired and maintained.

JHC
07-27-2011, 06:13 AM
Yes there is.. BEcause it is more ergo to shoot, your npoa/index is easily acquired and maintained.

I guess I need more than 50 rounds through a rental SP-01 to notice that. It was a swell pistol and all but meh . . .

Shadow sounds like the hot setup.

Packy
09-03-2011, 07:37 PM
I guess I need more than 50 rounds through a rental SP-01 to notice that. It was a swell pistol and all but meh . . .

Shadow sounds like the hot setup.

The spo1 has a firing pin block, the shadow has none.. Trigger of the shadow is a lot different from the spo1.
you will not need 50rounds to notice that.

CK1
09-03-2011, 08:27 PM
I guess I need more than 50 rounds through a rental SP-01 to notice that. It was a swell pistol and all but meh . . .

Shadow sounds like the hot setup.

A Shadow is on a different level trigger-wise... While I agree an SP-01 is just "meh", the Shadows are "holy s**t!", or to put it another way: on a scale of trigger-feel from 1-10, 10 being the best 1-2lb 1911 trigger you've ever felt, an SP-01 is maybe a 3-4, a Shadow Custom would be a 9-9.5.

JHC
09-04-2011, 05:20 PM
A Shadow is on a different level trigger-wise... While I agree an SP-01 is just "meh", the Shadows are "holy s**t!", or to put it another way: on a scale of trigger-feel from 1-10, 10 being the best 1-2lb 1911 trigger you've ever felt, an SP-01 is maybe a 3-4, a Shadow Custom would be a 9-9.5.

Dayim. I need to find one. Haven't seen one yet. Want to and am afraid to. ;)