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Plan
06-04-2011, 12:02 PM
Although high quality red dot sights are now considered by most to be an essential item for those running a carbine, their use with duty pistols is still relatively rare (aside from the specialized roles of competition, hunting, etc.)

As a greater variety of rugged, very compact RDS come to market, do you believe that we will see a change in the commonality of the compact, pistol-mounted RDS? I am referring primarily to the Trijicon RMR as that is what I am most familier with, but I realize that there are several other RDS designed or acceptible for use on handguns.

I am aware that use of a RDS on a handgun utilized for concealed carry presents a certain set of problems (holster selection being one, at least in the short term), but I think for a LE duty pistol it would be very functional. I have always felt that the nature of the service pistol doesn't necessarily require a particularly compact weapon and is best served with functional enhancements, such as weapon lights.

Disclaimer: I have had limited range time with pistol mounted RDS, have not trained with them, and currently do not own any handguns utilizing them. I am simply interested in future utilization of this concept.

JHC
06-04-2011, 01:12 PM
A few years ago when the Fastfire came out, I got one and put it on a G19. The first gen Fastfire was not much of a sight. But that notwithstanding, I was not impressed with the concept. In dynamic drills I found it much slower to pick up the dot in the window than irons. Good and fast down a rack of plates once you got on it. But add moving around and picking up new targets, not so much.

New better sights may improve that a lot. OTOH, among all the early adoptors, I do see quite a few reports that even after a few thousand rounds, the shooter is not as fast on the first shot as they were with irons. Much more accurate at any distance, but not faster for fast drills. I think throwing up a handgun without a shoulder and/or cheek weld anchor point is quite different.

I think it's totally terrific folks are pushing this envelope and refining the concept. I've not problem with any of that. I'm pretty sure a lot of the shooters who had slides carved up to mount mini RDS will not end up carrying them around concealed in the end.

Yep, really dialed in people have posted and one has told me directly that some very high speed mil folks are running these. Great. They run a lot of gear I don't aspire to. It may be superior. For me, I'm not convinced.

Today I'm doing very well with monovision set up contact lens. But sooner or later, I'll probably be forced to go optics with something like this to compensate for vision issues.

DocGKR
06-04-2011, 01:44 PM
This topic has been discussed previously, but the following is a re-cap of the high points:

There has recently been quite a bit of interest in mounting mini RDS on duty and CCW handgun slides. Vision issues, including middle-aged presbyopia can compromise the ability to see the front sight on traditional sights. One trick is to use bright reflective tape or paint on the front sight (http://pistol-training.com/articles/the-johno-diy-high-visibility-front-sight) or a bright fiber optic front sight insert. Another option is to go with a rear sight with a wider notch and a high visibility front sight--the extreme version of this being the XS 24/7 Big Dot sight system.

Retired Santa Clara PD SWAT officer and gunsmith Don Lazzarini and some of the older SWAT guys around here have used mini-RDS on their handguns for over a decade, as has noted polymer pistolsmith and LE SWAT officer David Bowie (http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/index.html). In addition, some very capable military SOF personnel have also been using this modification. Some of the more common electronic sights used in this role include the J-Point, Dr. Optic, ITI Mini-RDS, Leupold DeltaPoint, Trijicon RMR, and the Aimpoint H1/T1. While a small 2-4 MOA dot works nicely for pure target shooting, a larger dot of 6-8 MOA or so seems to be better for most defensive purposes with duty/CCW handguns.

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/163383847171.jpg

Over the past 18 months we have been experimenting with small slide mounted RDS and find they can be quite useful. There are several options to mount a small RDS on duty/CCW handguns; the easiest method is to drift out the standard rear sight and simply add a dove-tail adapter allowing the RDS to bolt on to the side. The lowest profile method and the one that fosters the most natural shooting position is to permanently mil the slide to allow the RDS to sit lower and allow a more natural shooting position. Tall iron sights, as used with suppressors, allows a rough co-witness with the RDS. Bowie is a class act and a master at this topic. Mark Housel at L&M Precision Gunworks, LLC in Prescott, AZ (http://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/) has done a good job putting RMR's on my current Glocks and M&P's. Doug Holloway at American Tool & Engraving in MI (www.ateiguns.com) also does very nice work and is highly recommended.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7655&filename=Glocks%20GFA.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6153824627_0a52e0268b_b.jpg

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/142745811358.jpg

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab25/greygroupcommunity/MAC%20-%20Castro%20Valley%20-%202011/IMG_0623.jpg

I believe it is critical for a duty/CCW pistol to have back-up iron sights. With BIS, I never have to worry about finding the red dot, even in awkward shooting positions—just line up the iron sights as normal and the red dot is there. In my hands, I discovered that painting the front sight a bright yellow or lime green aids in quickly finding the front sight and rapidly acquiring the dot. When first learning to use the RDS, I strongly preferred the rear BIS in behind the RDS (ie. RDS between the rear BIS and ejection port) as I was able to quickly pick up the irons in the usual manner and then the red dot was exactly where it needed to be, so there was no "hunting" to find the missing dot. As I have gained experience and repetitions in presenting the RDS equipped pistol, finding the dot is much less of an issue and BIS location becomes a relatively moot point. Placing the RDS at the rear edge of the slide with the rear BIS in front of it (ie. BIS between the RDS and ejection port) has its own merits--the view of the RDS is uncluttered, access to rear controls is enabled (especially important on the Leupold Deltapoint and ITI MRDS), holster selection is aided and less holster modifications are necessary, and the front edge of the optic is slightly protected by the BIS.

While nice on long guns, I am utterly unimpressed with the new adjustable intensity RMR-A's for slide mounted pistol use--Trijicon has really blown it on multiple levels in how they are approaching this utilization of the RMR. The RMR-A's that were evaluated seemed to change settings fairly easily. With pistols carried in exposed duty holsters, multiple officers complained of discovering no dot or a dim dot after carrying the pistols for several hours. Likewise, tactical team officers running 6004's found dot settings altered during drills on the range and in the shoot house. I suspect the problem is the side of the sight getting bumped while getting in and out of vehicles multiple times each day, bumping into doorways, and wacking the edge of the holster on various objects. There were quite a few instances where folks doing malfunction clearances discovered their dot settings had inadvertently changed. Worn in a holster that partially covers the RMR like those manufactured by Fricke, I suspect the RMR-A might be protected enough to not suffer from all of these issues.

The ITI MRDS offers some nice features, but because the base is thicker it is hard to properly install BIS compared with the lower profile bases on the RMR and Deltapoint. I wish the micro Aimpoint H1/T1 was a touch smaller, as it is unfortunately a bit too large for service pistol applications; when using a dovetail mount with the micro Aimpoints, it is difficult to get a BIS installed correctly, although this can be mitigated a bit by using a laser as a back-up sighting system. Compared to the RMR, the glass has less distortion on the Deltapoint. The Deltapoint can more easily be mounted on pistols with narrower slides like 1911's. The Deltapoint rim around the glass is much lower in profile than on the RMR making a clearer field of view. The sight adjustments on the Deltapoint can be locked into place--possibly a good thing, unless you don't have the appropriate mini torx driver with you. I wish Leupold would consider making a 7-8 MOA round reticle for the Deltapoint, as the current triangle creates issues with my eyes. The RMR glass has more distortion and a smaller field of view than the Deltapoint, although this does not turn out to be significant in actual use. The RMR 6.5 & 8 MOA red dots are ideal in shape and clarity; the RMR dots are also are brighter than the Deltapoint reticle which we found occasionally nearly washes out in certain lighting conditions. I definitely prefer the round RMR reticle to the Deltapoint triangle. The RMR appears more robust and less prone to have structural failure than the Deltapoint. Battery life seems longer on the RMR's we have compared to our Deltpoints. Skip the self-illuminating RMR's and stick with the battery powered ones in order to ensure adequate dot brightness in all lighting conditions.

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1427474977571.jpg

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/1427474986954.jpg

At this point, I am tending to prefer the Trijicon 8 MOA RMR02 compared to the Deltapoint. I have shot in light rain using RMR equipped pistols and had no issues. It is easiest to mount an RDS on Glock, M&P, the new FN's, as well as XD's. It is also possible to mount them on 1911's using an adapter plate and some additional tricks. I am unaware of any yet done on HK's, Sig's, or Berretta's.

I had one RMR fail during shooting this past year; since it was a simple electronics failure, the RMR glass was intact, transitioning to the BIS was quick, and it was easy to just keep shooting. If a slide mounted RDS glass did crack or spiderweb then one of two things could happen: either the dot would still be visible and you could continue to use the sight like an old OEG or the dot would stop functioning in which case you are going to need to punch out the glass with a knife or multi-tool in order to effectively use the slide mounted BIS. As noted, a laser is a possible back-up sight; we’ve been playing with the CTC lasergrips in conjunction with the slide mounted RDS—this can work. Keep in mind that when both the RDS and laser are on, depending on distance to target and laser zero, you may see two red dots—some people freak out when this occurs; personally I have not noticed this to be an issue for me. In addition, at longer ranges outside in bright daylight, you are likely not going to see your laser dot on the target; in general the CTC lasers work better at closer ranges, indoors, and in darker lighting conditions.

It does take a lot of dry firing/drawing and several thousand live rounds to become proficient with an RDS. I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. Shooting at moving targets and when I am moving is substantially easier with the RDS. In addition, the RDS allows me to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing—this is an incredibly SIGNIFICANT factor!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6160/6170873511_1293a133fe_z.jpg

If I still had perfect vision, I might consider staying with iron sights due to the speed advantage; however, given the vision changes following my bicycle accident induced basilar skull fracture 18 months ago, as well as the onset of middle-age presbyopia, I personally NEVER want to go back to irons.

Holsters for pistols with a slide mounted RDS require a bit of thought; the best I have used so far for off-duty/CCW use are the Fricke Seraphim for AIWB & IWB, along with the Fricke Gideon Elite for OWB (http://dalefrickeholsters.com). Another good OWB holster is the Alessi DOJ-open port. A relatively cheap and easy to acquire holster that works with RDS equipped pistols is the Comp Tac Belt Holster. The Raven RCS and CCC Looper work very well after minor modification to the front edges of the shirt guard and area over the ejection port. The Holsters Plus Sure-Lock OWB retention holster function fine with RDS sights. For overt tactical/duty carry of RDS equipped pistols, the Safariland 6004 and other SLS variants work well, but require more substantial holster modifications. Unfortunately, the typical Safariland ALS holsters do not work with RDS sights at this time, although Safariland has now introduced the 6354 ALS holster for use with 9 mm and .40 S&W Glocks using a slide mounted RDS.

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/G17wk22-multicam1.jpg

The consensus around here seems to be that the Trijicon 8 MOA LED RMR milled into the slide in conjunction with tall back-up iron sights is the best current option for mounting an RDS on a duty/CCW pistol. I currently have 9 mm Glocks and M&P45's set-up with RMR-02's.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5293/5532996040_1c457fe549_z.jpg

Kyle Reese
06-04-2011, 01:47 PM
Thank you for an extremely well written & informative post, Doc. I always learn something new when I read your writings.

JHC
06-04-2011, 03:48 PM
Thank you for an extremely well written & informative post, Doc. I always learn something new when I read your writings.

+1 Wow, that was one epic post. [and those were just the "high points" ;) ]

Might as well send to the reference section!

willowofwisp
06-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Everything Doc said lines up from what I have experienced. I am just the average joe who carries a weapon concealed, has taken a few classes and shoots PPC..but when I decided to get into the idea of carrying a gun with an RDS I did quite a bit of research, and talked to several people who I consider in the know before I made my decision. I have ran all three setups RDS with no BUIS, RDS with BUIS behind RDS, and RDS with BUIS in front, of all the setups I found the RDS with BUIS behind to be the best option. I also tried both the RMR and deltapoint..and chose the RMR, especially after hearing issues with the delta point from several forums and then a Doug Halloway having issues with his own delta point.

All of my slide work was done by Doug Halloway, the machining for the foot print and then the slide having the nickel boron finish applied. I have ran approx 2500 rounds through the gun in the past two months...shooting at a distance has increased in speed and effectiveness. The only shortcoming I had with the dot was that even after telling myself over and over to line up the iron sights and the dot will be there I was pressing out and hunting for the dot...this was easily solved by practicing my dry fire with the batteries removed from the RDS, that way I only had the sights and RDS window in front of me, after about two weeks my press outs become proficient and I was no longer hunting for the dot.

In terms of reliability and durability while my experience is short thus far I have had no issues..I have ran the sight pretty hard..and have used it several times to clear malfunctions one handed..whether it was off my Ares Gear belt, Raven holster, a wooden barricade, my boot and even off of a table. The RMR has yet to loose its zero or show any issues. (I am running the RMR02 but have thought of trying the adjustable)
A picture of my Sight picture

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5617912596_728710a4b3_z.jpg

A picture of me running the gun at MDFI HG1 and of a fellow shooter running an m&p with no BUIS

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5181/5632783297_09c400d2e1_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5064/5630420489_c35bd904aa_z.jpg

Doug
06-05-2011, 12:21 PM
Doc's post was fantastic especially appealing for those who are interested in potentially testing the concept.

I am a relatively new shooter, 5 years, reaching in my mid 40s. I don't see my eyes staying in good form forever although I had the surgery done in my 30s. I use bright green tape on my front sight which seems to help.

As background, my shooting is for self defense and pure love of it. Been building on regular training classes. Hope to CCW once the laws are altered in the restrictive County I reside.

Questions for those who have tried the concept.

1. Did you go all in or first try just mounting on the slide with a plate? Just curious.

2. Would it make any sense to first out fit your weapon, mine would be a Glock 19, with the supressor sights first to master for few months? My reasoning would be to have a baseline with the back up sights first then see how the RDS affects performance.

3. Does the RDS give equal or better rise to noting flaws in your shooting technique and/or overcoming them? Calling your shot or noticing the dreaded flinch, trigger jerk, ....

4. How many have EDC the RDS either IWB or OWB effectively for CCW?

Doug

willowofwisp
06-05-2011, 12:47 PM
Doc's post was fantastic especially appealing for those who are interested in potentially testing the concept.

I am a relatively new shooter, 5 years, reaching in my mid 40s. I don't see my eyes staying in good form forever although I had the surgery done in my 30s. I use bright green tape on my front sight which seems to help.

As background, my shooting is for self defense and pure love of it. Been building on regular training classes. Hope to CCW once the laws are altered in the restrictive County I reside.

Questions for those who have tried the concept.

1. Did you go all in or first try just mounting on the slide with a plate? Just curious.

I went all out and had my slide machined, none of the other guns I had tried previously used the adapter plates.

2. Would it make any sense to first out fit your weapon, mine would be a Glock 19, with the supressor sights first to master for few months? My reasoning would be to have a baseline with the back up sights first then see how the RDS affects performance.

I sort of did this by removing the battery from the RMR during my dry fire practice for a few weeks, I have shot the gun a few times without the RMR and just using suppressor sights...I am noticeably faster at closer distances...unless i use the RMR as a ghost ring.

3. Does the RDS give equal or better rise to noting flaws in your shooting technique and/or overcoming them? Calling your shot or noticing the dreaded flinch, trigger jerk, ....

I more often than not can notice trigger jerk..especially during dry fire practice, the dot movement is noticable If i don't have a perfect straight pull back. I would say its better on that note....an RDS won't make a crappy shooter a great shooter...it may bring them up a few notches but it won't make you awesome...the dot wont fix poor trigger control.

4. How many have EDC the RDS either IWB or OWB effectively for CCW?

I EDC my 19 with RMR in a Raven Concealment Phantom, using the IWB softloops and offset mount so I can tuck in my shirt if needed.

Doug

Plan
06-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Doc & Willofwisp - thank you for the excellent posts. I also found the included photos very informative, really demonstrating some variations of the RDS/pistol concept. This thread has made me eager to set up an M&P for this purpose.

willowofwisp
06-05-2011, 05:30 PM
Doc & Willofwisp - thank you for the excellent posts. I also found the included photos very informative, really demonstrating some variations of the RDS/pistol concept. This thread has made me eager to set up an M&P for this purpose.

Plan, here is a good website by Gabe Suarez that should help you out too, a ton more pictures.

http://www.reddotpistols.com/

I just wanted to add, for the RMR on the m&p they changed the way they machined hte slide, which allowed the RMR to sit further back from the ejection port, unlike Doc's which is pretty close.

willowofwisp
06-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Here are some quick photos I just took (i just grabbed my camera and the lens that was on it). I wanted to show people how I modified my Raven concealment holster to fit the RMR, which was just trimming the sweat shield with some snips and running it over my jeans (I was far too lazy to grab a dremel and sand paper), Tom Fineis of Raven even saw my holster the next day at a class he was instructing, I mentioned that i didn't get a chance to pretty it up but he said hey it works (or something a long those lines lol). He was also generous enough to give me some of the offset pieces so I could wear the holster and still have the tuckability (is that even a word lol?) with the RMR, if you were to just add the tuckable mounts and soft loops without that part the RMR would collide into them.

Oh yea..sorry for the dirty gun, it has yet to be cleaned since I bought it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3085/5802165906_1beb6b1a9d_z.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2259/5802164768_a768eea33d_z.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2246/5801607873_60c50c7163_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5802162780_038fc35ee0_z.jpg

Doug
06-05-2011, 07:21 PM
Thank you for the pics of the holster and your responses. Very helpful.

Doug
06-05-2011, 07:30 PM
Further question,

Does it make sense to use night sights for the front suppressor sight instead of the plain back ones or is that overkill?

If it is co witnessed that would be a red dot over the night sight dot?

willowofwisp
06-05-2011, 07:34 PM
Further question,

Does it make sense to use night sights for the front suppressor sight instead of the plain back ones or is that overkill?

If it is co witnessed that would be a red dot over the night sight dot?

I actually though of trying that out because I have found finding the dot when its really dark to take sometime if you don't get a perfect press out, I have yet to take a class with night shooting so maybe there is a better technique..but I would think the sight picture would be too busy, The FNP .45 tactical with RMR I handled at the LGS has 3 dot suppressor night sights and I thought it was overly distracting, especially in poorly lit areas.

jar
06-06-2011, 11:09 AM
What's the ballpark battery life on some of these sights? My concern with carrying one would be the chance the battery is dead when I have to use it.

Keebsley
06-06-2011, 03:01 PM
What's the ballpark battery life on some of these sights? My concern with carrying one would be the chance the battery is dead when I have to use it.

I don't claim to be a ninja know it all and from what I have read from those more knowledgeable than I such as DocGKR, the battery should be around a 2 year life span. Also, if the battery is dead, then you can immediately transition to the suppressor BUIS. If you don't have both the front and rear BUIS, you can use the view screen of the RDS as a large ghostring with the front sight. Not the best option and probably most likely for close distance.

DocGKR
06-06-2011, 05:11 PM
Our oldest RMR-02's are at 18 months--still running on the original batteries.

JHC
06-06-2011, 07:18 PM
Has anyone put up any advanced or faster FAST times running the MRDS setups?

The FAST is not the be all end all single measure I realize.

willowofwisp
06-06-2011, 08:20 PM
Has anyone put up any advanced or faster FAST times running the MRDS setups?

The FAST is not the be all end all single measure I realize.

my best time on the FAST drill with my RMR'd glock is a 6.87 clean and a 6.20 with missing one head shot. I can definetly improve on the FAST drill, I don't normally run it that often. I am slowed down on the first head shot normally, but using the RMR as a ghost ring i can pick up my time on the 4 in the chest.

JHC
06-07-2011, 05:46 AM
my best time on the FAST drill with my RMR'd glock is a 6.87 clean and a 6.20 with missing one head shot. I can definetly improve on the FAST drill, I don't normally run it that often. I am slowed down on the first head shot normally, but using the RMR as a ghost ring i can pick up my time on the 4 in the chest.

Excellent. Thanks.

YVK
06-07-2011, 09:31 AM
my best time on the FAST drill with my RMR'd glock is a 6.87 clean and a 6.20 with missing one head shot. I can definetly improve on the FAST drill, I don't normally run it that often. I am slowed down on the first head shot normally, but using the RMR as a ghost ring i can pick up my time on the 4 in the chest.

What was your best time on the FAST with irons?

John Hearne
06-07-2011, 09:56 AM
FWIW, I have a friend that shoots GSSF. He recently picked up a red dot Glock and shot the match with both guns. Despite having little trigger time with the RDS, IIRC, his shooting improved by 15-18%.

JHC
06-07-2011, 10:26 AM
FWIW, I have a friend that shoots GSSF. He recently picked up a red dot Glock and shot the match with both guns. Despite having little trigger time with the RDS, IIRC, his shooting improved by 15-18%.

That's impressive. GSSF is a pretty accuracy oriented format with that funky tombstone target and nondescript A zone.

willowofwisp
06-07-2011, 11:51 AM
What was your best time on the FAST with irons?

Honestly I don't know..I never really started running the FAST test until this year, which at the same time I started running the RMR, I know last year just messsing around a few times I could pull low to mid 7's pretty consistently on an m&p 9L wtih stock sights.

DocGKR
07-04-2011, 06:59 PM
At the recent Pat McNamara TAPS course, I had the opportunity to put 800 rounds through an M&P45 w/RMR. The pistol performed very well at both close range high speed targets, as well as precision shooting at ranges out to 50 yards.

We shot the 500 point aggregate 3 times and the M&P45 allowed me to shoot above 450 each time. Likewise, it proved capable at several speed events, including putting 9 shots into the A-zone in 4 sec at 7 yards, starting from the holster. The hardest part of using a slide mounted RDS for me remains consistently rapidly acquiring the red dot during the press out--I am getting better, but feel I can still improve in this area. I think having a bright color front iron sight or dot on the front iron sight may aid this task compared to using just a plain black front sight. I am going to do more experimentation with this and see how things go.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7573&filename=IMG_0623.jpg

willowofwisp
07-04-2011, 07:37 PM
Doc,

I painted my front sight orange on my 19 the first weekend that I was running it and that actually drew my eye away from the dot, but recently I have painted the front sight white and that seems to work well, I can pick it up fast and I can actually see the dot on top of the white front sight.

Rex G
07-09-2011, 06:23 PM
Having tasted the Aimpoint Micro T-1 on an AR, I very much want that technology on a handgun, though not necessarily on a duty or concealed handgun. I believe in the offense/proactive pistol concept, especially now that my bum right knee has caused me to age out of being able to qual with a patrol carbine at work. (Running and gunning is not the problem; it is getting up quickly enough from mandated prone and other low positions, without running out of time.) My employer allows quite a bit of latitude regarding spare and back-up handguns, and while optics are not yet approved for use on handguns, I may just elect to be a rebel in that regard.

If a truly battle-rugged mount can be found, a 1911 or GP100 would be my leading candidates to host my T-1. I am already lining up to sell some stuff, and if enough funds become available, this project will probably be started in the coming months, if other issues don't get in my way.

supersix4
07-09-2011, 08:36 PM
Doc, I also find that I am a bit slower to find the dot ( triangle in my case as I have the Leupold deltapoint on my M&P 45). However I can get extremely accurate hits at 25yds with giving up much in the way of time. I believe I can overcome this with more training. If you find something else that helps you acquire the dot quicker, please post. :D

willowofwisp
07-09-2011, 10:38 PM
Doc, I also find that I am a bit slower to find the dot ( triangle in my case as I have the Leupold deltapoint on my M&P 45). However I can get extremely accurate hits at 25yds with giving up much in the way of time. I believe I can overcome this with more training. If you find something else that helps you acquire the dot quicker, please post. :D

so far what has helped me most in finding the dot faster was working my press outs. I am much faster now at getting the first shot off, I wish i would of recorded my first few sessions with the RMR so I could see my baseline.

just do 15 minutes worth of press outs everyday and you'll get faster.

supersix4
07-10-2011, 12:15 AM
so far what has helped me most in finding the dot faster was working my press outs. I am much faster now at getting the first shot off, I wish i would of recorded my first few sessions with the RMR so I could see my baseline.

just do 15 minutes worth of press outs everyday and you'll get faster.


Ah


I do find that I get a little bit better after a long range session with it.

DocGKR
07-10-2011, 01:10 AM
With a slide mounted RDS, it is clear that lot's of repetitive dry fire practice of the draw & press out is key, followed by focused practice on the range. Even after 1000's of dry fire and actual rounds down range--I still feel I can improve the speed of my initial visual pick-up of the dot; I am going to try some front sight coloration over the next few weeks and see if that helps.

Decado
07-10-2011, 02:41 PM
I had been researching getting a pistol equipped with an RMR for a while when I had the good fortune to shoot one Larry Vickers had set up by Bowie Tactical. LAV pistol was set up exactly how I wanted to set up mine. After shooting LAV pistol I knew then I needed to get one. I have been using a Glock 17 w/RMR for the last couple months and I am really liking the concept. One of the things I have noticed is the RDS equipped pistols really brings to light any imperfections you have in your presentation. One of the issues I am having is I tend to present with the pistol canted slightly left. I have found by pressing out with my support hand more corrects the problem.

Heavy rain has been an issue with the RMR but I have still been able to maintain good accuracy despite this. Light to medium rain has not been an issue at all.

Durability of the RMR is excellent. During one of my earlier range sessions I inadvertently slammed the RMR with the door of my Jeep. There was no loss of zero or damage to the RMR.

Distance shooting is much easier, especially with less then perfect eyesight (like mine). I have made 100 yard shots and during my last session I was ringing steel at 50 yards with ease.

I have CCW the pistol (OWB). In the colder months it will not be much of problem at all to carry the G17 concealed. A good IWB holster would probably make it doable year round. I am considering saving up to have a G19 done for ease of concealment.

If you do not have good fundamentals a RDS will not make up for that.

My pistol has does not have night sights. I think having three other dots in the RMR window would be too confusing, for me at least. I have read that through further shooting LAV has also found the night sights on his pistol to be an issue.

My pistol was customized by Bowie Tactical. The wait was longer then expected, I had more work done on the pistol them just the slide, but very well worth the wait.

willowofwisp
07-10-2011, 04:32 PM
Decado,

the first weekend I ran my RMR was a rainy two day class, and like you I didn't have any issues, although it wasn't pouring very hard. I tried the FNP 45 tactical w/RMR and it comes from the factory with the three dot night sight system, and yea its pretty confusing.

Doc,

let me know how the color testing goes, so far I have tried white and orange, The orange I only left on for one two hour range session, I found it was drawing my eye away from the dot, so far the white is working better, but not perfect.

DocGKR
07-10-2011, 05:44 PM
I think I am going to try a florescent lime green first...

badgerw
07-24-2011, 09:25 PM
I've had an RMR on my Glock 26 for about 14 months. I had no BUIS for the first few months. Finding the dot was slow.

I added suppressor sights and I could find the dot much more quickly. I painted the rear sight fluorescent red and the front sight fluorescent yellow. Faster still.

I recently added an RMR to my G19. I had the suppressor sights installed to begin with. I'm trying a reverse of the above color scheme: yellow on the rear and red on the front. I'll let y'all know how it works out.

I have a bottle of florescent green on the shelf.

Bill

fuse
07-25-2011, 02:34 AM
What brand paint are y'all using?

sent via Android 3.1

badgerw
07-25-2011, 06:15 AM
I put two coats of white RUSTOLEUM as a primer.

I'm using fingernail polish form the colors. I'll check brands and let y'all know.

Bill

Failure2Stop
08-02-2011, 02:48 PM
I am not a fan of MRDs on pistols.
I can't track the dot like I can track a tritium dot in the front sight.
For low-light I prefer a laser (usually with a light), at pistol relevant distances (I have no doubt that an MRD will stomp a laser at 50 yards (+) in daylight, but I wouldn't be using the laser in that application).
Another issue is that in the event that the glass becomes obscured I can't readily ditch the MRD and go back to irons. Big deal? Not really, just not another factor I want to introduce into my use.

Obviously, DocGKR likes his and uses them to good effect, I just hold an opposing view.
I like the concept, I just haven't come to peace with their reality.

DocGKR
08-03-2011, 02:37 AM
Good to see you posting more! Concur with many of your comments, as I noted on page 1. If I still had perfect vision, I might consider staying with iron sights due to the speed advantage and sight tracking ability; however, given the vision changes following my skull fracture 24 months ago, as well as the onset of middle-age presbyopia, I can no longer see my front sight--thus it is use a slide mounted the RDS or stop shooting pistols effectively. The RDS is definitely more versatile than a laser alone; RDS plus laser is even better. Given my situation, I personally NEVER want to go back to irons; I suspect if you ever suffer from similar physical changes, you will come to peace with the reality of a slide mounted RDS fairly quickly...

As noted earlier, if the slide mounted RDS glass did crack or spiderweb then one of two things could happen: either the dot would still be visible and you could continue to use the sight like an old OEG or the dot would stop functioning in which case you are going to need to punch out the glass with a knife or multi-tool in order to effectively use the slide mounted BIS. A laser is a possible back-up sight to the RDS; we’ve been playing with the CTC lasergrips in conjunction with the slide mounted RDS. The lasers work well in dimmer lighting conditions and at closer ranges--say 25 and in.

Decado
08-10-2011, 02:11 PM
I have been experimenting with using my irons at close range and as the distance to target increases I switch to the dot. So far that is working for me and I have a lot less issues with trying to find the dot. This my G17 done by Bowie Tactical.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Decado/DSC00245.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Decado/DSC00256.jpg

DocGKR
08-20-2011, 11:35 AM
Todd has the new Safariland 6354 ALS holster for RDS equipped pistols on the PT website: http://pistol-training.com/archives/5145#more-5145

http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/G17wk22-multicam1.jpg

willowofwisp
08-20-2011, 03:33 PM
I saw that last night, looks like a good alternative to Gabe's bladetech made holster, hopefully in the future they do ones for guns with a WML.

Doc, do you know if this is still in prototype stage or will they be selling these?

DocGKR
08-21-2011, 02:10 AM
The 6354 is already made for pistols using the x300--the holsters are in field use. They will hopefully soon be available for individual purchase.

Jon C
08-21-2011, 08:28 AM
These are made for the G35, G22, G35/X300, and G22/X300. I am in the process of modifying one to fit an Aimpoint T1, I think I can make it work and still lock up. To my knowledge they are not available commercially yet.

DocGKR
08-22-2011, 10:58 AM
As noted, the other alternative is the Blade Tech Duty holster for RDS equipped pistols:

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/IMG_1524.jpg

The Blade Tech Holster is available in left and right hand versions in black, OD, dark earth, and foliage green; it is for sale right now at One Source Tactical: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/tsd-blade-techwrsrmrequippedtacticalholstersystem.aspx.

Mark Housel
10-09-2011, 11:49 PM
Doc,

I found this as a result of another search. Thank you for the kind mention here.


I just wanted to add, for the RMR on the m&p they changed the way they machined the slide, which allowed the RMR to sit further back from the ejection port, unlike Doc's which is pretty close.


Since I mounted the RMR on Doc's slides initially (and up until a month or so ago all slides done there) I thought I'd add to this.

The more forward mounting was initially done because there were (and still aren't to my knowledge) suppressor sights for M&P slides that fit in the factory dovetails. Doc wanted the sights retained resulting in the more forward mounting.

Subsequently I mounted the RMR so as to take out the factory dovetail and machined a new dovetail behind, or in front of the RMR allowing us to use some readily available suppressor sights.

I then retrofitted Doc's slides with some custom fabricated rear suppressor BUIS constructed from factory S&W and the other suppressor sights.

Thanks,
Mark

JM Campbell
10-10-2011, 11:11 AM
MH it looks like you did a nock out job with what you had at hand. I would love to try out this concept, yet I'm invested in HK so it's a no go IIRC.

Mark Housel
10-10-2011, 11:30 AM
SkyLine,

Unfortunately, the one HK slide I looked at briefly didn't look promising.
But, I wasn't able to disassemble it to really have a good look, or to think about potential workarounds.

Mark


MH it looks like you did a nock out job with what you had at hand. I would love to try out this concept, yet I'm invested in HK so it's a no go IIRC.

peterb
10-24-2011, 07:43 AM
More on the Safariland 6354 holster.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/10/21/safarilands-6354do-awesome-holster-horible-name/

DocGKR
12-01-2011, 11:31 PM
The new Safariland 6354 ALS for RDS equipped 9mm/.40 Glocks is the best duty holster currently available for these pistols.

The bad news is that my Glocks did not fit into these holsters since my RMR's are mounted forward of the rear BIS.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7655&filename=Glocks%20GFA.jpg

The good news is that it is a simple 10 minute fix. The following suggestions are for a right hand holster. Remove the three black screws and take the QLS fork off the left side of the holster. Then remove the two tan screws holding the right side spring device for the ALS system. Slip the tan ALS thumb over the edge of the holster, then take a punch or small screwdriver and pop out the left side ALS hinge/axel point that extends through the body of the holster, then lift out the tan ALS device. As noted in the photo, remove 1-2mm of plastic at the leading edge of the ALS device.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7739&filename=6354%20holster%20mod.jpg

Check to ensure the bottom of the ALS device appropriately locks into the ejection port.

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7740&filename=ALS%20mod.jpg

In addition, 1mm or so of plastic needs to be removed from the holster body where the front edge of the RMR will hit.


A stock holster:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z130/losrobles/misc/DSC_0004.jpg

Modify as shown:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7741&filename=6354%20holster%20ALS%20mod.jpg

Pop the ALS device back in, seating the right hinge/axel first, followed by the left. Re-attach the other parts. Check to ensure proper ALS lock-up. Then enjoy!

GJM
12-03-2011, 07:35 AM
I had my third range session yesterday with the Gen 4 17/GFA/RMR, with optic mounted rear of irons, shooting about 300 rounds. The night before, I painted my suppressor front sight orange (Sharpy paint stick, white base coat and orange over the top). Based on draw fire practice, I draw to the irons/bottom of RMR, rather than middle of the window, and never failed to see the dot. I believe the paint on the front sight helped me acquire the dot easier as it helped my eyes get to the sweet spot of the RMR lens.

Two more FASTests, both clean, meaning each one shot to date has been clean. I shot a number of Bill drills, since Todd indicated that is the type shooting that can be slower with the RDS. On Bill drills, my draw is equivalent in speed to irons, but my splits are faster with the RDS. All my shots were clustered tightly in the A Zone, with some vertical dispersion. It is easier for me to track the RDS, and I was seeing .20 splits, which is fast for me and especially for a Glock.

I shot steel out to 100 yards, including a six inch steel, slightly angled at 50 yards, and as might be expected, the RDS was an advantage over iron sights.

Biggest surprise continues to be how much better my support hand only shooting is with the RDS. No idea why, but it is. I have struggled with pulling my shots right, support hand, when going at speed with irons, but not so with the RDS.

I send a M&P 45 mid-size slide to Mark H today, and can't wait, as I shoot an M&P measurably better than a Glock. That said, if I woke up tomorrow morning in Ellijay, I would leave my iron sighted M&P Pro in the bag, and run with the 17/RMR.

Steve m
12-04-2011, 04:41 AM
Posted in another forum also.

I have a glock 19 that I am looking to get a RDS on.

What is a good one stop shop that I can get the sight also milled at?

Also what is a good RDS to get?

Thanks
Steve

Sparks2112
12-04-2011, 09:12 AM
landmprecisiongunworks.com/

The trijicon rmr with 8moa reticle is recommend by pretty much everyone other than David Bowie who if I recall likes the deltapoint for ccw use.

I'm going with the deltapoint due to platform limitations.

GJM
12-04-2011, 09:31 AM
Mark Housel at L&M turned my G17/RMR 02 installation around in 2 days, and the work was great. I just sent him another slide.

I really want to emphasize how much I like having painted my front suppressor sight orange. It allows me to acquire my front sight, just as drawing with iron sights, and allows me to better index so when I acquire the red dot, it is on target or very close.

DocGKR
12-05-2011, 03:27 AM
As previously noted, I can recommend three different places that are highly qualified and experienced at mounting RDS on slides:

-- Noted polymer pistolsmith and LE SWAT officer David Bowie (http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/index.html) is a class act and a master of the slide mounted RDS.

-- Mark Housel at L&M Precision Gunworks, LLC in Prescott, AZ (http://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com) has done a good job putting RMR's on my current Glocks and M&P's.

-- Doug Holloway at American Tool & Engraving in MI (www.ateiguns.com (http://www.ateiguns.com)) also does very nice work and is highly recommended.

If you use an untested nearby vendor, you might want your local gunsmith watch this somewhat simplified version of what needs to happen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUlCHn5oX-A.

DocGKR
12-05-2011, 03:28 AM
To date, we have found the RMR-02 to be the best choice for duty/CCW pistol use. Several of our RMR-02's have now been running for 24 months without a battery change.

As noted previously, the early RMR-A's had issues with unexpected, accidental dot intensity adjustment. Now that high quality duty (Safariland 6354) and CCW (Fricke Seraphim) holsters are available that cover and protect the side area of the RMR-A frame where the adjustment buttons are located, we have initiated a new trial using five RMR-07 sights to see if the previous issues of inadvertent dot dimming will be prevented.

GJM
12-11-2011, 09:38 PM
A friend, who has had LASIK, is having problems with the 8 moa RMR blooming. He recently got the smaller (4 +/- moa) RMR to try. Anyone with experience with the smaller dot that can comment on downsides to it?

DocGKR
12-11-2011, 10:34 PM
Both work. The bigger dot is easier to pick-up rapidly for fast shooting up close; the smaller dots work very well for longer range shots--especially at 25 and beyond.

GJM
12-12-2011, 09:27 PM
1) Received my M&P 45 mid-size slide back from Mark Housel. Prompt turn around and high quality installation.

Had first range session today with it. While obviously not an apples to apples comparison because of the caliber difference, I shoot the M&P pistols measurably better on the timer. Primarily, on my split time to the first shot from both the extended, confirmed ready and from the transition position. I attribute this to the larger trigger guard on the M&P pistols, which allows me to go from my trigger finger against the frame to the trigger quicker. Perhaps this would change with time with the Glock. I also reload the M&P faster than the Glock by .2-.4. Again, perhaps a training issue. The RDS helps bring out the accuracy potential of the M&P 45, and I enjoyed ringing the steel at will from 15-100 yards. I also feel like acquiring the dot with the M&P is slightly more natural than the Glock, but this may be my experience with the M&P. I shot several Bill drills with the 45, and while my splits were .03-.05 slower than the Glock, my total group was only about three inches. Strong hand and support hand only was excellent with the M&P/RMR.

2) I went hiking in the Colorado mountains just before dark, and carried the G17/RMR in a slightly modified Raven Concealment Phantom. I slipped on some ice and snow, and managed to fall right onto my right hip and the pistol. The pistol was exposed, and I got a lot of snow on the RMR lens. I wiped it off with an Oakley cloth I carry in my pocket, and found there appeared to be a secondary red dot, off center, obscuring the main dot. I believe some snow had gotten onto the red dot/diode, and I blew on it, to clear it. That fogged the lens, but once I cleared it with the cloth, all was back to normal. I decided to leave my jacket over the pistol for the rest of the hike. Looking forward to the new holsters Bill Rogers has designed and Safariland will display at SHOT.

DocGKR
12-13-2011, 01:09 AM
I also find the M&P w/RDS to be a bit faster and more natural pointing than a Glock w/RDS.

As a result of the added protection for the RDS, I find myself using the Fricke Seraphim AIWB/IWB holster and Fricke Gideon Elite OWB holster (custom made for RMR equipped pistols) as my primary CCW holsters, along with Safariland duty holsters--6354's for Glocks and modified 6004's for M&P's.

DocGKR
12-13-2011, 01:11 AM
Note: Unlike the clear un-tinted glass on the RMR02's we have been using the past 24 months, the glass on the new RMR07's we have begun to try this month has a noticeable blue tint.

Limey-
12-21-2011, 10:16 PM
With just a little bit of dremel trimming the safariland Raptor works great with my RMR equipped G-17 for patrol. The gun locks in there solidly the ALS function is fully functional. I use the 6280 for SWAT with just a small dremel trim. Mark Housel did my Glocks. Mark is a great guy and his work is fantastic.

waktasz
03-09-2013, 11:24 PM
Is there a performance advantage to mounting the dot at the rear of the slide or slightly more forward to allow for rear irons?

GJM
03-10-2013, 12:02 AM
Is there a performance advantage to mounting the dot at the rear of the slide or slightly more forward to allow for rear irons?

Depends on who you ask. One school of thought is the dot as far back as possible with the rear suppressor sight in front of the dot simplifies holster fit, keeps the dot relatively uncluttered and keeps the dot further away from ejection port blast. The other argument is the rear suppressor sight rear of the red dot helps you acquire the dot easier.

waktasz
03-10-2013, 02:19 PM
Maybe I should have worded my question differently. What I meant was, ignoring the iron sight issue completely, is there an advantage is dot tracking through recoil, pickup up the dot, etc, to having the sight all the way back, or forward a bit.

I am leaning toward having it mounted all the way back, and possibly forgoing irons all together.

kodiakpb
03-10-2013, 03:04 PM
I sent my RM07 back to Trijicon. Not for a failure per se, but because I ran out of elevation adjustment when mounted to a FNX-45 tactical. Confirmed through live fire. Here is a pic of the dot in relation to the front sight post. The dot needs to be able to come down a few more clicks, as it is shooting low at 75 feet, and exaggerated more at longer distances. Apparently this has happened before with the FNP-TACs. Seems like for whatever reason there is not enough "Up" adjustment. The RDS is either not able to be zeroed to the weapon, or it is zeroed, but at the limits of adjustment (which isn't good either).

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/11/asasu8yq.jpg

I also asked them (since it will be there for the elevation issue) if they would upgrade the electronics to the more robust type due to adjustable LED versions failing after an unspecified number of rounds.

According to my tracking information, it should be delivered to Trijicon on Tuesday. I'll keep you all informed with what happens.

JBP55
03-10-2013, 03:54 PM
Maybe I should have worded my question differently. What I meant was, ignoring the iron sight issue completely, is there an advantage is dot tracking through recoil, pickup up the dot, etc, to having the sight all the way back, or forward a bit.

I am leaning toward having it mounted all the way back, and possibly forgoing irons all together.



I was wondering how the RDS would work without conventional sights as well. The sights in the picture look too busy for me, trying to look at sights and a dot at once.
Does anyone use the RDS alone?

kodiakpb
03-10-2013, 09:24 PM
I was wondering how the RDS would work without conventional sights as well. The sights in the picture look too busy for me, trying to look at sights and a dot at once.
Does anyone use the RDS alone?

JB, that pic was just to show relationship to the front sight post (unable to cowitness due to elevation issue( . When using the RDS you are not aligning the dot with anything. It's just like shooting an AR with a RDS...iron sights are there as a backup only. When shooting you are looking over your irons. Wherever the dot is...is where the bullet will impact (as long as its zeroed). The cowitness allows you to use irons in the event the RDS failed. If that ever happens you would align your front and rear sight through the window of the RDS. Here is what the sight picture looks like when shooting with the RDS.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/11/a7ede7u4.jpg

overton
07-29-2014, 01:34 AM
Awesome thread. Doc, do you have any updates for us? Any conclusions as far as the RMR 07 is concerned?
Thanks!

LSP972
07-29-2014, 10:57 AM
Depends on who you ask. One school of thought is the dot as far back as possible with the rear suppressor sight in front of the dot simplifies holster fit, keeps the dot relatively uncluttered and keeps the dot further away from ejection port blast. The other argument is the rear suppressor sight rear of the red dot helps you acquire the dot easier.

I have both set-ups: both G19s, one with a JPoint inlet as far as possible to the end of the slide, the other with an RMR inlet slightly forward enough to use a suppressor-height rear sight (the JPoint has a notch at the back of the housing for use with a standard-height front sight).

To me, neither one is faster to pick up than the other. The JPoint does have a slightly more "open" screen (i.e., a bit more surface area, plus the thicker housing of the RMR is a bit distracting) and I find it easier to pick up... but not noticeably FASTER, if that makes any sense.

The rearmost-mount JPoint is definitely easier to carry IWB; it fits into an umodified RMHolsters Lo-Rider perfectly, where the RMR prevents the pistol from completely entering the holster. The higher front suppressor sight causes issues here as well. I have a Fricke OWB holster for the RMR pistol, but it is a "belt holster" and not concealable under a buttoned shirt (for me, anyway).

Bottom line; while both "shoot the same" for me, the JPoint set-up is definitely the better carry option. The RMR is certainly more durable, so if I was setting up a uniform/open carry piece it would be with the RMR pistol.

I realize this is an old thread, but quite a bit of time has passed, the concept has been more fully developed, and I have carried and shot my examples enough to make some observations.

Without reservation, I can say that this concept is THE answer to "old man eyes". That's why I began exploring it in the first place; I'm 62 now and the ability to get a good sight picture with irons... ANY irons... is leaving me quickly.

There are a few drawbacks (mainly, the price of admission). While I question the durability of the JPoint in a duty/service environment, it is plenty durable for a citizen/concealed carry application. Actually, what I have is a pair of Trijicon clones of the JPoint, no longer in print. But if one of them puked tomorrow, I'd simply buy a new JPoint, install that puppy and zero it. FWIW, the JPoint does NOT have the same "footprint" as the Docter, even though they appear to be quite similar.

If you have the resources and time to get familiar with it, this concept is eminently doable. The only issue I had was having to adjust the way I lock my wrists during presentation to avoid playing "find the dot". That took a bit of time and ammunition.

.

JSGlock34
08-05-2014, 06:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjQk244oW9c&feature=youtu.be&a

MODS: Ah hell, you can delete this. Just found the Romper Room thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13019-Assailant-Arms-Hi-Point)...

EVP
08-06-2014, 12:09 AM
That's hilarious Js



I was actually going to find this thread so I can post a question for people running RDS.

Can anyone comment on if a g17 or g19 RMR prints while carrying AIWB? I would assume you might have the top right edge of the RMR kinda poking out.

Haraise
08-06-2014, 01:42 AM
That's hilarious Js



I was actually going to find this thread so I can post a question for people running RDS.

Can anyone comment on if a g17 or g19 RMR prints while carrying AIWB? I would assume you might have the top right edge of the RMR kinda poking out.

I carry that way with an RMR. No printing issues at all, even with tight tops.

KevinB
08-06-2014, 02:49 PM
I don't AIWB, but I know several who do, and are undetectable.