Remind me again why the Governor/Judge concept is bad?

[CougarRed]

I watched this video, paying close attention to 2:55 to 4:15.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDMDd4eAQO0

I understand that shooting multiple projectiles per shot in public is not a good idea liability wise. So confine the question to home defense.

With the Federal 000 Buckshot, you get 4 "bullets" the diameter of 9mm ball weighing about 70 grams each penetrating 18-20" in bare gel.

With the Nobel Sport 000 Buckshot, you get 3 "bullets" the diameter of .40S&W weighing over 90 grams each penetrating 18-20" in bare gel.

Both group rather compactly at self defense range - within an inch or two.

What am I missing? Are 3-4 ball wound tracks not as good as 1 wider hollowpoint wound channel? Does the buckshot not penetrate barriers as well?

I get why birdshot sucks, but why is this gun/000 buckshot pairing so controversial?

Thanks.

[justintime]

I don't know the answer to most of these questions, but I have shot buckshot in a house and will never feel comfortable doing so again. The pellets went through 4 dry walls and bounced off the fireplace to return back all over the house in every direction. (House was a country home out in the county we bought to demo and eventually develop) we shot pretty much the whole thing up and buckshot was by far the sketchiest thing next to .22 (which also seemed abnormally unsafe) strange lessons learned. I was also shocked to find that most of the time 556 penetrated and traveled the least through walls. Interestingly enough I also discovered that bird shot totally makes movie style holes in dry wall.

The big thing I've taken away from that experience is velocity is your friend indoors, and most normal people like me do not take into account just how potentially dangerous/unpredictable certain bullets can be inside a home. I am fairly certain buckshot ( while effective) is not what I would use if other people were in my home as it's very hard to know what's going to happen to all the pellets. As they definitely bounce around

[DocGKR]

"I was also shocked to find that most of the time 556 penetrated and traveled the least through walls."

Thank you. That is why we have been telling folks for the past 20 years, that 5.56 mm is likely the best caliber available for indoor use.

Strangely, it seems that many of the so called "experts" who pontificate that a 12 gauge is the best choice for self-defense and that "assault weapons" like the AR15 are not suitable for home defense because of "over-penetration" tend to ignore basic yet easily verifiable wound ballistic facts.

[Drang]

Thank you. That is why we have been telling folks for the past 20 years, that 5.56 mm is likely the best caliber available for indoor use.

Strangely, it seems that many of the so called "experts" who pontificate that a 12 gauge is the best choice for self-defense and that "assault weapons" like the AR15 are not suitable for home defense because of "over-penetration" tend to ignore basic yet easily verifiable wound ballistic facts.

Because TRADITION! /Tevye

Everyone knows that a Bad Guy will pee his pants and run away as soon as he hears a 12 gauge "racked."

40 years ago, when the choice was probably between the .30-30 and the 12 gauge, the scattergun may well have been the best, or better, choice.

[DocGKR]

I keep asking these deluded cats just how is the sound of an 870 being pumped more intimidating than the noise of an AR15 bolt getting cycled?

[TheTrevor]

Thank you. That is why we have been telling folks for the past 20 years, that 5.56 mm is likely the best caliber available for indoor use.

Strangely, it seems that many of the so called "experts" who pontificate that a 12 gauge is the best choice for self-defense and that "assault weapons" like the AR15 are not suitable for home defense because of "over-penetration" tend to ignore basic yet easily verifiable wound ballistic facts.

Doc, is the same true of 5.45x39 7N6 rounds? My 5.56 upper will be out of service for upgrades until after the holidays, and I put the 5.45 AR on hot standby in its place.

If the 7N6 is likely to overpenetrate to a dangerous degree, I could swap over to the Hornady 5.45 V-Max rounds after I test them this weekend...

[Slavex]

Recent ND with a 223 through a cedar plank wall and out through drywall.

1953
1954
1956

55gr JHP, the round entered the top left of the monitor and left the jacket there, bullet fragmented and 4 pieces just penetrated the next drywall sheet. They did not have the energy to exit. Round was fired from about 8ft from the wall. There was no drywall under the cedar plank. In previous, purposeful, shots on walls I've seen had the wall been drywall on both sides I don't think the monitor would have suffered as badly, if at all.

so yeah, I'm good with 223 for home defense, I'm also down with having easy mag changes, which the Judge doesn't really allow for.

[Haraise]

What I don't get is all the people switching to 5.56 barrier blind loads for HD. It might be what the ninjas are doing now, but it goes against everything a person would want in their house with others. Still seems 75gr TAP T2 is the winner, to me.

[Tamara]

I don't know if that was calibrated gel in the video or not, but those were some really unimpressive wound tracks. Granted, there were three of them, but they all reminded me of pocket pistol FMJ loads.

[Rich@CCC]

Which is (almost) exactly what they are. "Ball" ammo rounds at low velocity from close range.

I've always thought the Judge was a great Idea for a car defense gun. Good spread at close range(2-4 feet) from #4 .410 shell. Perfect for defacing:rolleyes: a carjacker but pretty much useless for anything else.

I may have to try some of the designer rounds and refine my judgement...maybe.

[justintime]

I keep asking these deluded cats just how is the sound of an 870 being pumped more intimidating than the noise of an AR15 bolt getting cycled?

I had some 556 rounds not even make it through a singular wall if fired at angles. I also fired a crossbow and it went through two dry walls and half way into the third and the outside window. Kinda cool

[ToddG]

I get why birdshot sucks, but why is this gun/000 buckshot pairing so controversial?

Because you can get more capacity, smaller size, more shootability, and higher quality out of a 9mm pistol from any number of manufacturers.

The defense of the Judge people always seems to be, "It doesn't suck completely!" OK, it doesn't suck completely. But what in the world makes it better than other options? Nothing that I can see beyond the bug-eyed slack-jawed window-licking hoorah jollies some people get from having a "shotgun pistol." They want to believe they're shooting 12g #00 power levels. They're not. It's a .410. It's a caliber specifically sold to little kids who can't control real guns.

I honestly believe the Judge is popular only because 5.7mm ammunition is too expensive and the people who desperately want to look cool with a weird gun can afford to shoot .410 shotshells in front of their friends a lot more often.

[jetfire]

The problem with the Judge is that it's not really good at anything. If you want a revolver for self defense than Ruger, S&W and even Taurus make better choices than the Judge. If you want a shotgun for self-defense, you're better off with a proper, full size shotgun. Even a full size .410 shotgun is going to have better terminal ballistics than the Judge, because it at least has 18 inches of barrel on it.

[Chuck Haggard]

In my observation .223/5.56 barrier blind loads don't get through any more building materials than most service caliber pistol rounds. For strictly home defense I would likely go with the 75gr TAP though.


5.45; I can't speak to the Russian service round, but in an interesting drive-by case I got to see what 30 rounds of the Wolf HP does to various parts of a house.

A couple of shot line of note;
Through front wall of house, across bedroom, through closet door, back closet wall, across back bed room, out through window and storm window, 50ish yards down range into neighbor's house.
Through back window and windshield of Mustang, through garage door, across garage and out the back wall, into same neighbor's house.
Through plate front picture window, across living room into kitchen, through the fridge, out the back kitchen window, into same house down the way.

In 5.45 I'd go with something that actually fragments.

[jetfire]

In my observation .223/5.56 barrier blind loads don't get through any more building materials than most service caliber pistol rounds. For strictly home defense I would likely go with the 75gr TAP though.


5.45; I can't speak to the Russian service round, but in an interesting drive-by case I got to see what 30 rounds of the Wolf HP does to various parts of a house.

A couple of shot line of note;
Through front wall of house, across bedroom, through closet door, back closet wall, across back bed room, out through window and storm window, 50ish yards down range into neighbor's house.
Through back window and windshield of Mustang, through garage door, across garage and out the back wall, into same neighbor's house.
Through plate front picture window, across living room into kitchen, through the fridge, out the back kitchen window, into same house down the way.

In 5.45 I'd go with something that actually fragments.

That steel core Russian ammo penetrates like a mofo.

[texasaggie2005]

The Judge / Governor is great at poppin' snakes out on the ranch, and the rats in the barn. But that's about it.

[Tamara]

I honestly believe the Judge is popular only because 5.7mm ammunition is too expensive and the people who desperately want to look cool with a weird gun can afford to shoot .410 shotshells in front of their friends a lot more often.

It's nice to know that the management of this site is on my wavelength here. :D

[oldtexan]

I watched this video, paying close attention to 2:55 to 4:15.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDMDd4eAQO0

I understand that shooting multiple projectiles per shot in public is not a good idea liability wise. So confine the question to home defense.

With the Federal 000 Buckshot, you get 4 "bullets" the diameter of 9mm ball weighing about 70 grams each penetrating 18-20" in bare gel.

With the Nobel Sport 000 Buckshot, you get 3 "bullets" the diameter of .40S&W weighing over 90 grams each penetrating 18-20" in bare gel.

Both group rather compactly at self defense range - within an inch or two.

What am I missing? Are 3-4 ball wound tracks not as good as 1 wider hollowpoint wound channel? Does the buckshot not penetrate barriers as well?

I get why birdshot sucks, but why is this gun/000 buckshot pairing so controversial?

Thanks.

I'm never even handled a .410 revolver, so take this for what it's worth.

This is the way I think of a .410 revolver: with Federal 000, it's analogous to a full auto .32 ACP pistol(closest combination of bullet weight, velocity, and diameter), only with a heavy trigger pull, poor sights, no easy way to mount a light, no immediate indication that it's empty, bulky ammo, and a slow reload process, that fires exactly four rds of ball(no more, no less) every time you pull the trigger, and can only do that 5 times before it's empty.

With the Nobel Sport 000, maybe it's similar, except it's maybe like a full auto .380 pistol, same trigger, sight, light, empty condition, ammo, and reload constraints, that fires three rds of ball (no more, no less)with each trigger pull, and likewise runs out after five trigger pulls.

If you're well-trained with it, and you're confronted at more or less conversational distance, in good lighting, by only one or maybe two bad guys, without any no-shoots in close proximity, it's probably adequate, for a handgun.

[Tamara]

Personally, I blame Spike Jonze.

[justintime]

In my observation .223/5.56 barrier blind loads don't get through any more building materials than most service caliber pistol rounds. For strictly home defense I would likely go with the 75gr TAP though.


5.45; I can't speak to the Russian service round, but in an interesting drive-by case I got to see what 30 rounds of the Wolf HP does to various parts of a house.

A couple of shot line of note;
Through front wall of house, across bedroom, through closet door, back closet wall, across back bed room, out through window and storm window, 50ish yards down range into neighbor's house.
Through back window and windshield of Mustang, through garage door, across garage and out the back wall, into same neighbor's house.
Through plate front picture window, across living room into kitchen, through the fridge, out the back kitchen window, into same house down the way.

In 5.45 I'd go with something that actually fragments.

I noted that out of the all the popular pistol loadings I have (45, 40, 9mm, 380 and 357 mag/38 special. They all penetrated similarly inside the house (which was A LOT and self defense loadings did not act like magical parachutes as I expected. Some of them actually penetrated better though less consistent as ball.) except the .380 which basically had a hard time making it through anything lol.

honestly everything I tried from 30-30s to .308s had tons of penetration except the 556

7.62x39 was impressive in that it deviated a lot less then most of the other loadings and went through a lot of the studs. buckshot was just scary as it would A) come back at you through multiple walls and B) all the pellets would start taking all kinds of different directions through the first dry wall so it was totally unpredictable. Also shooting a shotgun in the house just one time = an incredible amount of smoke that is kind of actually hard to see through.

also .22 did not penetrate like I expected through peoples claims online. In fact it bounced around very similarly to buckshot without even going through any walls or objects at times just with significantly less energy. also buckshot inside every room distance did not have enough area to expand inside the room distances. It did all of its expanding after it had left the room and left really big menacing holes which exited with crazy dispersion, so federal flight control made no difference inside the house from what I saw.

[JodyH]

I'll see your puny .410 Judge/Governor and raise you one

12ga. "Judge, Jury & Executioner"
:cool:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p82/JodyHuggins/IMG_20121210_155001.jpg

[justintime]

I will see it and raise you shotgun pistol + guard dog

http://transitionvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/madmax2-dog.jpg

[TheTrevor]

That steel core Russian ammo penetrates like a mofo.

Oh, no doubt about that. I shot a 5.45 steel-jacket round clean through the leg of the target stand for one of those orange polymer spinners last weekend. Neatly severed it. Oops.

[Rich]

I would take a S&W version.

It would make for a EOTWAWNI handgun. hunting rabbits and such.

looking in gun shops / wally world for 410 ammo 45LC or 45acp

My wallmart has been bare of SD 9mm/40cal/45acp ammo for a long time ! But they did have a stash of 410 B.S. and 45LC and lots of bird shot 12/20GA and 7mm