Opinions on magazine safeties

[vaspence]

I know this has been tossed about a bit before but I'm curious as to why some folks do not like magazine safeties.

I had an M&P 9 that I bought used with a mag safety. I removed it when I installed a DCAEK in the pistol (no reason just figured I'd take it out). After a couple months I was pondering this and had no real reason for removing the safety so I put it back in. I didn't notice any difference in trigger pull or functioning, etc. in over 1800 rounds through the pistol. I know that is an example of one, but I never noticed any mag safety related issues with any 3rd Gen Smiths I owned either.

My question is, if you are a person who would tell a buddy "the first thing is to remove the mag safety", what improvement are you getting from removal or your reasoning behind removal? I realize this will vary from pistol to pistol but am interested in hearing.

[TR675]

Tagged for interest.

I've never understood the "magazine safeties are evil" line of reasoning myself. I can see removing one if they adversely affect reliability, trigger pull, etc. But (for example) I have never heard of an M&P magazine safety failing in any way. I have, however, heard a lot of stories about people launching rounds into walls or other people because they removed the magazine and forgot to unchamber the round. I know that Ayoob has a number of stories of officers whose lives were saved because of magazine safeties on their guns.

Conversely, I've never heard a really good explanation for why they should be removed.

[MEH]

There are pros and cons for having a magazine safety.

If you play any gun games having the mag safety can be a pain in the butt to drop the hammer (yea I know, striker) as you will have to insert an empty mag to accomplish that feat.

Other than that let your personal preference decide.

[Kyle Reese]

Not my cup of tea. I learned to hate mag disconnect safeties on my old P35's.

[JSGlock34]

I think this comes down to the model of the pistol and design of the magazine safety. Some magazine safeties are known for degrading the trigger pull or binding the magazine and preventing it from dropping free. The Browning Hi-Power design was the lightning rod for debating the merits of the magazine safety, to the point that Browning introduced magazines with those clever little mousetrap springs to ensure they dropped free during a reload.

I never had a problem with the magazine safety on my old 3rd Generation S&W 5903, and the magazine safety on the M&P has its merits. No doubt part of S&W's marketing to LEAs is that you are less likely to have a ND while field stripping the firearm when compared to the Glock due to the ability to release the striker without squeezing the trigger. Adding the optional magazine safety makes such an event even less likely.

[KevinB]

I think this comes down to the model of the pistol and design of the magazine safety. Some magazine safeties are known for degrading the trigger pull or binding the magazine and preventing it from dropping free. The Browning Hi-Power design was the lightning rod for debating the merits of the magazine safety...

My hatred spawned from the BHP -- mags did not want to drop free with that stupid plunger in it. Of course the reset when to stupid long.

That and I sometime may want to fire the gun with a mag out of it -- that 0.0001% time it could happen.

I remember years ago a buddy that had some S&W Gen3 guns stashed around his house -- round in the chamber but no mag -- he and his wife carried mags, it was an interesting "safe" storage method for a house with kids.

[SWAT Lt.]

I have revised my position on magazine safeties over the years. I think for the average person the likliehood of needing that one round in the chamber while switching magazines during a gunfight is much, much less likely than the average person failing to properly clear the gun and shooting himself or someone else. I think they are a great idea for novice shooters, and an M&P so equipped makes a great first semi auto.

[cmoore]

They are a real pain in the kitten for competition shooters who have to frequently unload and show clear. This entails pulling the trigger to drop the hammer after the magazine is removed. If a competitor has a mag safety, they have pull out an empty mag and show it to the safety or range officer, insert the empty mag, point the gun at the berm, pull the trigger, remove the mag, and then finally holster their pistol. It's an annoying time waster in the action pistol games.

[Tamara]

Somewhat interesting from an historical standpoint, magazine safeties and loaded chamber indicators both have long histories on autopistols in America and aren't some new invention of lawyer-phobic safety nazis.

Pretty much all of the earliest American pocket autos had one or the other at one time, and it absolutely makes sense when you think that America used to be Revolver Nation. Anybody can tell if a revolver is loaded by glancing at it, and it can be rendered inert by opening the cylinder, but the most common novice error (or non-novice not paying attention error) is to get the order wrong in the whole "remove magazine and then rack slide" thing.

Colt 1903 and 1906? Mag safeties. Savage 1907? LCI. H&R Self-Loading .32? Both. Only the Smith and Remington didn't feature them and they both had "belt-and-suspenders" manual and grip safeties.

As time went by, the Savage dropped the LCI and the H&R dropped the mag safety as unnecessarily complex and unneeded, but I find it interesting that they were around even back then.

[Sal Picante]

They are a real pain in the ass for competition shooters who have to frequently unload and show clear. This entails pulling the trigger to drop the hammer after the magazine is removed. If a competitor has a mag safety, they have pull out an empty mag and show it to the safety or range officer, insert the empty mag, point the gun at the berm, pull the trigger, remove the mag, and then finally holster their pistol. It's an annoying time waster in the action pistol games.

We've had a couple of folks who've rocked the Ruger Sr-series guns and the process has never really bother my or my other RO's...

Dry fire with them in is problematic, tho...

[DocGKR]

I prefer NOT having a mag safety. More than once I've seen a magazine inadvertently dislodged from a weapon when drawn in a stressful situation. When the mag hits the deck while drawing down on bad guys, it is nice to know that at least one shot can be fired while quickly reloading...

[Joseph B.]

I removed the mag safety in my M&P9 only b/c it made dryfire easier.

[Wendell]

I have revised my position on magazine safeties over the years. I think for the average person the likliehood of needing that one round in the chamber while switching magazines during a gunfight is much, much less likely than the average person failing to properly clear the gun and shooting himself or someone else. I think they are a great idea for novice shooters, and an M&P so equipped makes a great first semi auto.

One of the (many) issues caused by the magazine disconnect is miseducation of the ignorant. As Farnam has said, the trouble with "unloaded" guns is that they invariably will get mixed up with "loaded" guns. Similarly, because some pistols are equipped with magazine disconnect, but most are not, the two types may become confused, with deadly consequences. For example, I recall a father who had a daughter attending university in another state; he visited her there, and because he was concerned for her safety he took her to a gun store to buy her a pistol. This man came from a state where all new pistols sold were required to be equipped with a magazine disconnect...you can see where this is going... He bought her the pistol, they were on the range, he was instructing his daughter on the operation of the pistol, and the pistol discharged, killing her. No magazine in the pistol. It didn't have a disconnect (and he was used to a disconnect).

It was his fault, for sure, but I submit to you that their home state - because of the magazine disconnect law - also bears responsibility. This wrong-headed law conditioned him to make an assumption that resulted in the death of his daughter. The last thing we want to do is condition the novice shooter (or anyone) to regard a firearm without a magazine as "safe" and "unloaded." It is the wrong approach.

Uniformed law enforcement officers might benefit from a magazine disconnect, and if the expert user (like ToddG) decides he wants one, fine, but I think they are a horrible feature for anyone else, and ESPECIALLY so for the novice shooter.

[KeeFus]

Uniformed law enforcement officers might benefit from a magazine disconnect, and if the expert user (like ToddG) decides he wants one, fine, but I think they are a horrible feature for anyone else, and ESPECIALLY so for the novice shooter.

Last year I took a LE firearms class with that had some guys in it that have M&P 45's which are issued by that agency with mag disconnect/safeties on them. I inquired about why. The instructor relayed a story that they had considered having them removed but (and there's always one) that one of the officers was in firearms training one day and was doing something with the weapon in class. Someone asked said officer why they were pointing the gun around the class, pulling the trigger. Officer responded that it was unloaded. A check of the chamber revealed that although the mag had been removed the chamber was still 'loaded'. There went the removal of mag safety idea...

Personally, I do not like them because I fear that I will inadvertently hit the mag release and not be able to fire when it really needs to. Otherwise I guess they would be OK.

[TR675]

I prefer NOT having a mag safety. More than once I've seen a magazine inadvertently dislodged from a weapon when drawn in a stressful situation. When the mag hits the deck while drawing down on bad guys, it is nice to know that at least one shot can be fired while quickly reloading...

Ok, this is a reasonable concern. But then the question is, if you have a large number of guns being carried by a large number of people, is this scenario more likely to occur than the scenario of someone having a momentary lapse of attention and pulling the trigger in an occupied locker room because he "thought the gun was unloaded?" I've never done or heard of a statistical analysis of this, but based purely on anecdotal reports I strongly suspect the latter is more likely than the former.


One of the (many) issues caused by the magazine disconnect is miseducation of the ignorant. As Farnam has said, the trouble with "unloaded" guns is that they invariably will get mixed up with "loaded" guns. Similarly, because some pistols are equipped with magazine disconnect, but most are not, the two types may become confused, with deadly consequences. For example, I recall a father who had a daughter attending university in another state; he visited her there, and because he was concerned for her safety he took her to a gun store to buy her a pistol. This man came from a state where all new pistols sold were required to be equipped with a magazine disconnect...you can see where this is going... He bought her the pistol, they were on the range, he was instructing his daughter on the operation of the pistol, and the pistol discharged, killing her. No magazine in the pistol. It didn't have a disconnect (and he was used to a disconnect).

It was his fault, for sure, but I submit to you that their home state - because of the magazine disconnect law - also bears responsibility. This wrong-headed law conditioned him to make an assumption that resulted in the death of his daughter. The last thing we want to do is condition the novice shooter (or anyone) to regard a firearm without a magazine as "safe" and "unloaded." It is the wrong approach.

Uniformed law enforcement officers might benefit from a magazine disconnect, and if the expert user (like ToddG) decides he wants one, fine, but I think they are a horrible feature for anyone else, and ESPECIALLY so for the novice shooter.

There seems to be a larger problem in your example than the presence or absence of a magazine safety. Even if the magazine safety was the problem in this particular instance, what leads you to believe that over all they cause more problems than they solve?

[LHS]

I never much cared for them, but some years ago I was shooting an IDPA match, and a moving target popped up while I was doing a tac load (so much for the 'lull in the action'). I was able to put a round into the head box SHO, with the two mags in my left hand. The target vanished before I could get the fresh mag in the gun and the slide cycled. Having a functional gun, even with only one bullet, was the difference between down 5 and down 10 + a FTN. That's when I decided I'd never own a pistol with a mag disconnect safety.

[Chuck_S]

A magazine safety is an abomination on a duty/defensive pistol. As is any extra safety in general.

There will always be true stories where someone's life was saved in a brawl when they managed to drop the magazine out of their pistol and the bad guy was unable to fire it. There will always be true stories where someone's life was saved in an automobile accident because they were not wearing their seat belt and were thrown safely clear. And there was a kid in Florida hit by a meteorite... :)

-- Chuck

[JV_]

As is any extra safety in general.Can you define "extra safety"? Is a firing pin/striker safety an extra safety? What about a grip safety? Trigger safety on a Glock?

[BLR]

A magazine safety is an abomination on a duty/defensive pistol. As is any extra safety in general.


I beg to differ.

[JonInWA]

I've had 3 Hi-Powers-all of them post-1994 production with the "mousetrap" magazine springs which very effectively jettison the magazine on demand. All of my Hi-Power magazines are OEM NP3/teflon coated (except one blued MecGar); the coating nicely slicks up the mag safety plunger pad/magazine face/trigger interface.

I've chosen to keep the magazine safety in all of my Hi-Powers. In competition shooting (predominantly IDPA) it simply is not a big deal, nor a huge time-consuming exercise to notify the SO and insert an empty magazine to enable tripping the hammer to show clear.

Best, Jon

[ToddG]

In an ideal world, I'd like mag disconnect safeties on all my pistols. The last pistol I tested that offered them -- the M&P -- I chose the mag disconnect version and never once had a problem from it. There are two main benefits:


Ability to disable the gun during a grab attempt. One agency I used to work with had a filing cabinet full of reports of just its own personnel who'd experienced this on the street. While I'm certainly not saying it's a be-all end-all solution to FUTting around with someone, letting the guy have your (non-functional) pistol while you draw your backup beats losing your (functional) pistol and being shot by it. At least, I would assume so.
Added layer of anti-stupid during administrative handling. While no number of mechanical safeties can or should excuse poor gun handling, a mag disconnect can reduce the odds of humans producing human errors with loaded guns during one of the most common periods of carelessness: administrative handling.


Against that are the common complaints:

"It hampers trigger pull." If that's the case, the design is bad. The BHP is about the only gun still on the market that suffers from this. I know first hand that M&P, SIG, and Beretta mag disconnect guns don't have trigger pulls any different than the non-disconnect variants.

"It hampers magazines from dropping free." Again, this is a design issue. Just because many people's sole experience with mag disconnects comes from P35s doesn't mean the P35 design is the best way to judge the concept.

"I might need that one round during a reload!" I'd be willing to bet my house that the number of people who have fired the one round in their chamber halfway through a reload and received a meaningful result therefrom is less than 1% the number of documented cases in which a person has disabled a handgun during a takeaway thanks to the mag disconnect, thus saving his own life when the criminal tried to turn the now-disabled gun on him. I've met people whose lives were saved that way. I've never met anyone who fired a round in the middle of a reload in a real fight, and certainly not someone who ended the fight that way.

"My mag sometimes falls out of my gun!" First, you need to look at your gear because this is more often than not a holster (or seat belt) related issue. Second, I think an argument can actually be made that having a mag disconnect is better in this case. For most people, if a mag is dislodged and the gun is fired, the mag will drop on the ground. Now you've got no ammo in the gun at all. With a mag disconnect, you get no BANG when you pull the trigger so you would do what? Tap Rack. You've reseated your magazine and you're back to full capacity. That's far faster than click, tap-rack, click, hey I've got no magazine, reload, rack...

"It sucks at USPSA/IDPA matches!" Because the match rules are stupid. You don't prove a gun is empty by pulling the trigger. You prove a gun is empty by checking the magwell and chamber (or cylinder on those weird spinny guns). Even if both the shooter and RO make a mistake, so long as the gun continues to be handled in a safe manner then it's a non-issue. All the "slide forward, pull the trigger" thing does is force people to risk an ND they might not otherwise suffer. It also becomes a habit and I've seen too many people have ADs in classes and practice because of it. My personal ND story was a direct result of doing the "slide forward, pull the trigger" thing... on a hot range where there was no reason to unload in the first place, so I hadn't. Duh. Anyway, for matches that require such, I just ask the RO how he wants me to proceed. Usually they want you to put a mag in the gun, rack the slide, and press the trigger... :p

[BLR]

"It sucks at USPSA/IDPA matches!" Because the match rules are stupid. You don't prove a gun is empty by pulling the trigger. You prove a gun is empty by checking the magwell and chamber (or cylinder on those weird spinny guns). Even if both the shooter and RO make a mistake, so long as the gun continues to be handled in a safe manner then it's a non-issue. All the "slide forward, pull the trigger" thing does is force people to risk an ND they might not otherwise suffer. It also becomes a habit and I've seen too many people have ADs in classes and practice because of it. My personal ND story was a direct result of doing the "slide forward, pull the trigger" thing... on a hot range where there was no reason to unload in the first place, so I hadn't. Duh. Anyway, for matches that require such, I just ask the RO how he wants me to proceed. Usually they want you to put a mag in the gun, rack the slide, and press the trigger... :p

QFT.

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[TCinVA]

I prefer NOT having a mag safety. More than once I've seen a magazine inadvertently dislodged from a weapon when drawn in a stressful situation. When the mag hits the deck while drawing down on bad guys, it is nice to know that at least one shot can be fired while quickly reloading...

There's a rather famous video of a trooper trying to shoot at a green SUV where the occupant attempted to kill him where the gun didn't work because he had accidentally ejected his magazine while attempting to establish his grip.

[Rich]

I love safeties.
I wish I had a mag disconnect on my P229 and P30

If I was LEO I would demand it ! Open carry etc!

I never in my decades of shooting pulled my Pistol for the first time and the magazine drop out the bottom.
Before putting pistol in holster I make sure that the mag is seated. I guess I've been lucky.

And there's no way I will ever need to single feed a cartridge ! I carry extra mags. and or BUG.


I like the idea of eject mag kick if possible pull bug!

Even the slide de cocker / safety don't bother me.

[Magic_Salad0892]

Cannot perform extractor function test properly with a mag disconnect safety.

[BLR]

Cannot perform extractor function test properly with a mag disconnect safety.

Isn't that a 1911 specific test?

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[FotoTomas]

I like them and prefer them for specific reasons. Some have been mentioned before above. The one reason that has not been mentioned and an issue I deal with daily is the ability to disable the pistol when in an enviroment when the exposed weapon might be a tempting target to the mentally ill. In my case I have to deal with mental health issues in a psychiatric ward or in a medical facility where mental health issues are common. When I visit those areas my SIG 229 (and my Old Beretta 92D), equipped with magazine disconnects will have the magazine removed and placed in a pocket. This gives me easy access to the facility without having to lock the gun up in a box outside. In addition I have access and training to draw and insert a magazine if needed in those secure areas. Coupled with the fact that I "know" that a gun grab in those restricted areas...even though a very serious issue...is something I can better handle when the gun will not work.

Specific needs for a specific device and a valuable asset. I am willing to stipulate it is not for everyone.

As a specific for the IDPA matches and such I shoot... My disconnect guns are DAO. The RO/SO in my cases have never required me to insert an empty magazine to pull the trigger at the berm. I advise the RO/SO that I have a disconnect model and after I show clear I drop the slide and pull the trigger. Nothing happens, the RO is happy and I holster a safe and empty weapon.

Different strokes for different folks. :)

[David Armstrong]

As with so much in the world there are advantages and there are disadvantages to the mag safety. Todd did a pretty good example of showing that. For me it is a wash. I've never seen the need to remove a magazine safety, I've never felt the lack in guns without the mag safety. I've carried with and without. On a personal level I think the advantages probably are a bit more than the disadvantages for most.

[SWAT Lt.]

There's a rather famous video of a trooper trying to shoot at a green SUV where the occupant attempted to kill him where the gun didn't work because he had accidentally ejected his magazine while attempting to establish his grip.

If it is the same video I am thinking of, I believe the cause of the officer not being able to fire additional rounds from his weapon was due to him not letting the DAO trigger out all the way on his S&W 3rd Gen DAO pistol (which is a long, long, way especially under stress) . The gun was later found to be fully operational. Fortunately, the officer was uninjured.

When we issued S&W 3rd Gen DA/SA pistols, left handed officers would tug on their mag when getting out of the car. Sometimes the seat belt would press on the mag release and dislodge the mag slightly. That was more an issue with the holster as right handed officers had no problems.

I have never seen anyone negatively impacted (i.e. hurt or killed) from not being able to fire the chambered round due to a mag disconnect safety. I have seen quite a few folks who shot something or someone (including themsleves) unintentionally because they failed to clear their weapon properly. I believe the MDS is a good thing for those new and less experienced shooters. I carried an issued S&W 3rd Gen equipped with a MDS for almost a decade and it didn't concern me one bit.

[Tamara]

As with so much in the world there are advantages and there are disadvantages to the mag safety. Todd did a pretty good example of showing that. For me it is a wash. I've never seen the need to remove a magazine safety, I've never felt the lack in guns without the mag safety. I've carried with and without. On a personal level I think the advantages probably are a bit more than the disadvantages for most.

Agree with this. I wouldn't mind having one, and I do think they are a useful buffer against the most common form of human error with autopistols, but its lack doesn't make me lose sleep.

[SmokeJumper]

In an ideal world, I'd like mag disconnect safeties on all my pistols. The last pistol I tested that offered them -- the M&P -- I chose the mag disconnect version and never once had a problem from it. There are two main benefits:

[LIST]
Ability to disable the gun during a grab attempt. One agency I used to work with had a filing cabinet full of reports of just its own personnel who'd experienced this on the street. While I'm certainly not saying it's a be-all end-all solution to FUTting around with someone, letting the guy have your (non-functional) pistol while you draw your backup beats losing your (functional) pistol and being shot by it. At least, I would assume so.


Todd provided a good explanation, as always. This reason quoted above is the main reason why my agency requires it of the issued duty pistol, plus I don't think anyone of the higher-ups or above is willing to admit that the stupid proof factor is also an element in consideration. It was/is important enough that it will be on the new SW MP's arriving for new duty weapons. Personally, I'm not all that into the mag. disconnect safety, my personal carry guns do not have them.

[JonInWA]

And even the age-old Hi Power has made some grudging baby-steps of improvements-with the teflon'ed magazine tubes (although they may have discontinued coating them with it on current production Hi Power magazines), and the "mousetrap" magazine ejection spring.

All of my personal Hi Powers (which were all post 1994 production) have (fortuitously) quite decent triggerpulls out of the box-magazine safety and all. But I have handled some post-1994 production Hi Powers that have had truly abysmal (inordinately hard, gritty) triggerpulls, so the Hi Power gods simply may have been smiling on me...

Best, Jon

[JAD]

I am 3/3 on P35s with a horrible trigger until the mag safety was removed.

[_JD_]

This is horribly second hand but back in the day when dad W's on the job they were running different flavors of Smith autos and an officers mag got just partially release during his shift from something hitting the button and got into a text book 21' deal and got knifed when his gun went click instead of bang. He survived but a lot of the guys looked at the mag safety a little differently. I can see why some like it but I'd rather not have one in my guns.

Sent via Tapatalk and still using real words.

[BLR]

Stories of guys who kept their cool, and used it on their favor to prevent a gun grab from going real far south.

Also, stories of guys who let the situation get in front of them getting bit by having one.





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[Magic_Salad0892]

Isn't that a 1911 specific test?

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I do it for my Glocks from time to time. Making sure that the extractor is actually gripping the case. I did it with newer Glocks during the time when people were having way more extractor issues.

I think it's helpful for any handgun.

[ToddG]

I think it's helpful for any handgun.

If being able to cycle an empty case without a mag inserted isn't something the manufacturer designed for, then the fact that it doesn't work isn't really necessarily indicative of anything. As I've mentioned before, I regularly saw SIG pistols that would "fail" this test but ran like Swiss watches.

Just because the test does a good job of evaluating extractor tension for an internal leaf spring extractor in a 1911 doesn't mean it's properly evaluating anything in a coil-driven external extractor in another model gun.

[Magic_Salad0892]

If being able to cycle an empty case without a mag inserted isn't something the manufacturer designed for, then the fact that it doesn't work isn't really necessarily indicative of anything. As I've mentioned before, I regularly saw SIG pistols that would "fail" this test but ran like Swiss watches.

Just because the test does a good job of evaluating extractor tension for an internal leaf spring extractor in a 1911 doesn't mean it's properly evaluating anything in a coil-driven external extractor in another model gun.

I said "helpful". Not "complete".

I started doing it when Gen4 Glocks started going widespread, and people started having extractor, or recoil spring issues.

I used it when installing the HRED. My Gen4s that will pass this test have demonstrated great ejection characteristics. The Gen4/3 guns that did poorly showed very poor, or erratic characteristics. Obviously the magazine not being there doesn't tell the whole story, but it helped me personally determine weather or not the extractor was getting proper grip on the casing, or had proper tension.

It helped me diagnose, and fix issues in Glock pistols where they appeared. That number specifically is three. One of mine, a Gen4 that a friend had, and a Gen3 owned by that same friend. I don't know that I'd use it in every pistol, but it helped me. I'd at least give it a try in pistols that had issues.

That's all I was saying. I don't mean to imply that it's the sole reason that you shouldn't have a MDS, I was just throwing it out there.

(Though I would say that it's a reason not to have an MDS on a 1911/2011.)