Anyone know anything about ASP Pistols?

[JeffJ]

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx101/JeffJ99/WP_20131204_002_zps51b6ca07.jpg

Over Thanksgiving, an uncle showed me a gun that he was given by a neighbor moving to Europe about 25 years ago. I'm pretty sure it's an ASP Pistol, the only markings on it are Smith and Wesson. We're both interested to find out more about it if anyone can tell me more about it or point me in the right direction. Thanks.

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx101/JeffJ99/WP_20131204_003_zps54791801.jpg

[JeffJ]

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx101/JeffJ99/WP_20131204_007_zps0007a60d.jpg

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx101/JeffJ99/WP_20131204_005_zps39c09a53.jpg

http://i746.photobucket.com/albums/xx101/JeffJ99/WP_20131204_006_zps7a4e5006.jpg

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Both posts from TPI, from a thread about the Quell shooting technique:


As far as the secret squirrel stuff..... He did have those as clients. I bought a ASP pistol back in around 87 from a NIS agent assigned to SEAL Team V who was quite the world traveler. It had all the really cool Null leather (belt and ankle rig and the mag pouches with the magnets inside). I figured out why the guy sold it to me. The sights were retarded and the thing sucked to try to hit anything with. He ended up using a Ruger Speed Six converted to fire something like 6 different cartridges that allowed him to get ammo worldwide. I ended up trading the ASP for a K Kote P226 right when they came out (boy was that a bad deal....I flipped another ASP for $4000 a couple of years ago).


I sent a private letter to Bill Rogers on this issue shortly after I wrote about it here. I do not think he will mind if I make it public.


[nycnoob], I own one of Paris's ASP pistols. Keeping up with your round count by looking at the see through grip panels in the middle of a gun fight is ludicrous and the "guttersnipe sight" is useless but the concept of a cut down compact 9MM pistol was somewhat novel. He had a couple good holster designs but most of his holster inventions were not all that useful. I never met Paris but talked to him on several occasions. He believed that one of my handcuff case designs, "Quick Case" was an infringement of one of his patents. He threatened to sue me but I had my attorney point out that my design had nothing to do with his patent. Apparently he got some independent counsel and decided not to pursue any litigation against me. He was involved with design work for our government but that was not out of the ordinary. Gene DeSantos had connections with the Secret Service, John Bianchi had contracts with the Army and I had large contracts with the Navy Seals and the FBI. I doubt that Paris was an operative with the CIA but I am sure he designed equipment for their use. I cannot say much about the rest of the hype that abounds about Paris's life. I do know that he was not considered a successful businessman in the holster industry. Unfortunately that is really all I know about Paris Theadore. ----Bill Rogers

[JeffJ]

I haven't shot it yet, from what I can tell it's an interesting conversation piece. The sights are, um, different. It looks like this one was a converted S&W 39, there aren't any markings on it designating it as an ASP so I'm guessing it's one of the Theodore conversions, before they got sent out to the company that did the rest of them?

Also, if someone can date the s/n for me I'd appreciate it.

[Tamara]

Also, if someone can date the s/n for me I'd appreciate it.

The "86XXX" s/n dates it to the late '60s.

The Model 39 started with s/n 1001 in '54 and ran up through 115000 in 1970, when they added the "A" serial prefix. For closer than that, you're going to need a factory letter.

[JeffJ]

Thanks Tam.

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Wayne Novak used to have a collection on his website.

[Tamara]

Wayne Novak used to have a collection on his website.

Novak's collection are Devels. Same idea, but different dude.

[Al T.]

Think Dean Spier has some insight on this, I'll look around.

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/paris_theodore.html

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Ok, maybe it's a Devel then.

[Lester Polfus]

Oh my. My adolescent James Bond fanboy is stirring.

You have an ASP, because it has the Guttersnipe sights. I shot one once, with my hands all a-quiver, because it was like getting my hands on the holy grail.

Guttersnipe sights might be just the thing for somebody, but I'm not that person.

They are worth quite a bit of money.

[Tamara]

Think Dean Spier has some insight on this, I'll look around.

http://www.thegunzone.com/people/paris_theodore.html

Heh. I really need to meet Dean someday. :cool:

[Tamara]

Oh my. My adolescent James Bond fanboy is stirring.

You have an ASP, because it has the Guttersnipe sights. I shot one once, with my hands all a-quiver, because it was like getting my hands on the holy grail.

Guttersnipe sights might be just the thing for somebody, but I'm not that person.

They are worth quite a bit of money.

They had one for sale at CCA (http://coalcreekarmory.blogspot.com/2007/08/ultra-rare-asp-9mm-special-edition-100.html) a while back. I don't remember who bought it...

It was the first time I'd really gotten to coonfinger one. In the post-3913/469/CS9 world, a lot of the shiny has come off those guns, if you know what I mean. Like the way Detonics Combat Masters were something special back in the days before every Tom, Dick, and Geraldo offered a cut-down 3" 1911 malfunction-prone ball of suck and fail. :D

[Lester Polfus]

They had one for sale at CCA (http://coalcreekarmory.blogspot.com/2007/08/ultra-rare-asp-9mm-special-edition-100.html) a while back. I don't remember who bought it...

It was the first time I'd really gotten to coonfinger one. In the post-3913/469/CS9 world, a lot of the shiny has come off those guns, if you know what I mean. Like the way Detonics Combat Masters were something special back in the days before every Tom, Dick, and Geraldo offered a cut-down 3" 1911 malfunction-prone ball of suck and fail. :D

Back in the 80's and early 90's I seriously wanted a Detonics to wear on my ankle, Just Like Sonny Crocket. The best I could come up with was a Colt Officers Model. Which would jam miserably, until you replaced the recoil spring and magazine springs, then would run, sort of, as long as you held it just right, for about 100 rounds, when you would have to replace the springs again.

We are really spoiled by the guns we have now days...

[Al T.]

We are really spoiled by the guns we have now days...

Yup. I did get to meet Jerry Ahern and his lovely bride, once upon a time, in a land far away. I was sad that I didn't have twin Detonics slung in my shoulder holsters.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Like the way Detonics Combat Masters were something special back in the days before every Tom, Dick, and Geraldo offered a cut-down 3" 1911 malfunction-prone ball of suck and fail. :D

I got to shoot one of those at FLETC. Very uncomfortable.

[Tamara]

I got to shoot one of those at FLETC. Very uncomfortable.

I had an early Seattle one. Briefly. To say I was underwhelmed would be an understatement. :o

[JSGlock34]

Oh my. My adolescent James Bond fanboy is stirring.

The ASP was actually Bond's sidearm in several of the 1980-90s John Gardner authored Bond novels. Of course, Gardner varyingly equipped Bond with the VP70Z, P7, Browning Hi-Power and a Walther P38K at various times, but seemed to settle on the ASP for most of his books.

As an aside, the most recent Bond author, Jeffrey Deaver, has chosen to equip Bond with the Walther PPS, a superb choice, but inexplicably chose the decidedly un-British .40 model.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Dagga Boy]

Don't shoot it. They are far better as collector pieces than shooters………FAR better. It is a novelty item and representative of "a time". I have owned a couple and they were more of a pride of ownership thing. Like the prior post of mine listed before, I was underwhelmed with the first one I had, which was at a time when it was doable to actually carry one (Mid 80's). They are a thing now that I will buy if I get in right, and sell if offered the right amount. I would never carry one. Especially when I have things like a Sig P225 or HK P7's that will fill the same role, but far better.

Now, about the Detonics and ankle carry. Hell yes I did it! Sonny Crockett 101. While the regular Detonics was not such a hot idea, TJ's Custom Gunworks built me a LW Commander frame with a Detonics slide that I carried in an ankle holster in slacks. It ran perfect (mainly because it used standard size Colt 1911 magazines) and was easier to carry due to the light weight. Just a really neat custom gun. I also had a Scoremaster (IIRC, it was a Robar one) that was a great gun that was both reliable and very accurate. Yes, I had a Miami Classic for it…..:cool:.

[LittleLebowski]

I have a hard time believing that folks whose job is to remain undetected and not to carry things that scream "agent" would carry this. In other words, I don't believe these pistols are any more than slick marketing ala Steven Seagal and his "time at the Agency."

[LSP972]

Don't shoot it.

This.

I had two of these, as well. In the early 80s, the ASP and Devel cut-down M-39s were THE status symbol among certain gun enthusiasts. Darryl has it right.

But there is another reason not to shoot it… and its why I no longer own either of the pistols I had. The ASP featured a 'teflon' finish. This finish was baked on, and the process basically removed the temper/hardening from the alloy frame. The M-39's design has a steel barrel lug slamming directly into the corresponding cuts in the frame; unlike most modern alloy-framed pistols that have a steel "locking block" to absorb that energy.

The result is peening of the aluminum frame in those locking lug cuts. Depending upon how much a particular frame's temper is reduced, it will cause the pistol to begin malfunctioning in as little as a thousand rounds, as frame material is displaced by recoil. I have extensive hands-on experience with four different examples. One, belonging to a friend, was still shootable after 3K+ rounds of standard 9mm ball and hollowpoint ammunition, but had definite peening signs. My first one didn't start to peen until well over 1K, then went downhill fast. My second one began peening in the first 200 rounds.

This peening could be controlled, by field-stripping the pistol, taking a small jewelers file to the lug recesses, and removing the peened metal. But said peening would come back, and the process needed to be repeated. It didn't take an advanced engineering degree to see that, eventually, one would run out of metal. So I sold them while they were still viable.

FWIW, the file method was not some desperate Bubba move on my part. In numerous aggravated phone conversations with Kevin Parsons, where I was trying to understand what was going on with these expensive puppies, he is the one who told me how to do that procedure. Its the closest he ever came to admitting that the concept (as produced by them; the Devel pistols worked fine) was flawed.

For the era, the gee-whiz factor on these guns was off the charts. Parsons was a promoter of some experience, and he knew how to package a product to appeal to his target audience. The overall workmanship was excellent, the Null leather available for the gun was top-shelf, the ads were subdued yet provocative, the supporting manuals/documentation supplied with each pistol were professionally executed, the factory letterhead correspondence was on heavy linen paper, etc., etc.

The GutterSnipe sight was NOT "useless"… as long as you didn't try any distance shooting. It actually worked pretty well up close, and in all fairness that is what it was designed for. I managed to do some decent 50 yard work with it, after much practice; but as a general purpose sight, it indeed sucked.

The Devel, OTOH, had none of these issues. Kelsey hard-chromed his pistols, kept the issue sights, and produced a durable little critter. I was able to compare the two side-by-side, and have fervently wished since that I had chosen the Devel. I chose the ASP because it was a bit "cleaner"; that is, it had smoother contours and seemed to be a bit more concealable. I didn't discover the ASP's soft frame issue until I was too heavily invested in it.

In any event, OP, you have a real interesting item there, that looks to be in pristine condition. I assume you have at least one magazine? I hope so, because standard M-39 magazines will not fit. I wish I had kept one of mine, purely for nostalgic reasons… and it would be fun to carry every now and then for grins.

.

[LSP972]

I have a hard time believing that folks whose job is to remain undetected and not to carry things that scream "agent" would carry this. In other words, I don't believe these pistols are any more than slick marketing ala Steven Seagal and his "time at the Agency."

Theodore sold quite a few of these to the government.

By the time Parsons took control of the operation (some say he swindled Theodore out of the firm), government interest had waned. He told me that the company, after he took over, "had made a few" for the government but not many, which is why he "went public".

Yes, the company catch-phrase was "Unseen in the best places"… ad hype to be sure. But when I showed mine to a retired U.S. State Department type (this would have been 1985), he got a wistful look on his face. He said those guns were quite the status symbol among his dignitary protection peers at one time.

Yeah, that's hearsay. I don't really know. But does it really matter? These pistols were an interesting blip on the scope, and ahead of their time, for sure.

.

[Tamara]

The GutterSnipe sight was NOT "useless"… as long as you didn't try any distance shooting. It actually worked pretty well up close, and in all fairness that is what it was designed for. I managed to do some decent 50 yard work with it, after much practice; but as a general purpose sight, it indeed sucked.

So, like the XS-Big dots, then? ;)

[Dagga Boy]

The gutter site actually made the X/S's like Bomars.

Great post LSP, and on the money.
As far as specialty weapons used by spy type agencies-the 70's and 80's produced some weird stuff. I have a Teflon coated, threaded barreled Hk4 that was issued out of a three letter place with a unique history...along with some interesting accessories. I also know that the original HK PSP's with the exposed heel mag release was a popular issue from the same place. I have one with Null leather. It seemed that a bigger reality was customized Euro guns and revolvers were more likely during the Cold War era as well as 1911's and BHP's popular with the former military guys.

[JeffJ]

Wow, thanks for the responses. I guess I won't shoot it after all. I do have 3 mags with the mag holder that uses magnets. Anybody got an idea of the value of this thing? My uncle said he might want to sell if the price is right, although I'm not sure what that is.

[Jason Burton]

These pistols were an interesting blip on the scope, and ahead of their time, for sure.

Absolutely... both the ASP and Devel did allot to inspire the compact wonder-nine and I agree with LSP that the Devel was the better of the two.

By my understanding the ASP pictured by the OP is a Wisconsin built gun (ASP Inc.) vs. a Seventrees built pistol. There are allot more of the ASP Inc. guns and by all accounts they were better built even though they still had durability issues and other flaws.

Both the ASP and the Devel, like Swenson 1911s and Pachmayr Combat Specials, represent an era where custom gun smithing influenced the way a great many "modern" designs were shaped and conceived.

Very cool guns in my book...

[JeffJ]

How does one tell whether its one of the Wisconsin guns or a seventrees?

[LSP972]

How does one tell whether its one of the Wisconsin guns or a seventrees?

Having never seen an actual Seventrees example, I have no idea. All four I have handled/shot were Wisconsin pistols, and my second one came from the last batch they produced.

I HATE these Devel/ASP threads that pop up from time to time. They make me sad, knowing that I should have kept one of those odd little pistols. I had every piece of leather Null made for them, except the ankle holster, and I had quite a few magazines as well; to include three of the elusive flat base plate version.

The Null shoulder holster for the ASP was a real trick; one of those "if I have to 'splain it you wouldn't understand" deals. Because of it, I ordered a Null City Slicker for a J frame. What an excellent deep cover carry rig… perfect for carrying a last-ditch piece under my SWAT trash/flight suit. And, of course, I foolishly lent it to someone, forgot who, and the scumbag never returned it.

Man, I haven't thought about this stuff in years. I wonder if Mr. Null is even still around? Think I'll check his site, and order another City Slicker.

.

[Tamara]

I HATE these Devel/ASP threads that pop up from time to time. They make me sad, knowing that I should have kept one of those odd little pistols.

Yeah, I feel you.

It's the same way I feel about dropping that O.G. Combat Master. From a practical aspect and with the benefit of hindsight, it may not have been all that great a gun, but like the ASP and the Bren Ten and one or two others, it was pretty much the ne plus ultra of Gun Hipster Coolness in its era.

[NEPAKevin]

Man, I haven't thought about this stuff in years. I wonder if Mr. Null is even still around? Think I'll check his site, and order another City Slicker.

.

FWIW, as of the end of November, there was positive feedback on his ebay listing. You could always try calling. I always got the impression that he preferred to take orders old school.

[1slow]

I had one for a while. Do not like the "Guttersnipe" sight. With good sights it would be OK as a CCW pistol. You were supposed to make the sight look like 3 yellow triangles centering the target. This did not work for me. Mainly collectable now.
HK LEM P30, P2000SK etc... are a much better item, as are Reliable Glocks and accurate S&W M&Ps.

[LSP552]

Man, I haven't thought about this stuff in years. I wonder if Mr. Null is even still around? Think I'll check his site, and order another City Slicker.

.

Reminds me I need to order another Null ankle holster for the 642. Mine finally gave up the ghost. Can't complain since it was ordered right after we bought those early 642s.

Ken

[LSP972]

I always got the impression that he preferred to take orders old school.

Most definitely; he can be cantankerous, for sure. A master craftsman, though. His site is still active; I'll give him a call next week.

.

[LSP972]

Reminds me I need to order another Null ankle holster for the 642. Mine finally gave up the ghost. Can't complain since it was ordered right after we bought those early 642s.

Ken

I still have the first ANK he did for me in 1983. It is about wore out, but would still be serviceable. Murray and I ordered new ones in 2002, and I used that one right up until I retired. Haven't worn it much since, but it is still in great shape. That horsehide really does outlast cow hide.

If you want to combine our order, give me a bump next week on my cell; I won't be back at the lab until the 16th.

.

[LSP972]

It's the same way I feel about dropping that O.G. Combat Master. From a practical aspect and with the benefit of hindsight, it may not have been all that great a gun, but like the ASP and the Bren Ten and one or two others, it was pretty much the ne plus ultra of Gun Hipster Coolness in its era.


Hindsight is indeed 20/20, eh?

I had a Bren Ten on order. Thank goodness I picked that year to attend the SHOT show, and was able to handle that behemoth. I could BARELY reach the trigger in DA mode, and forget about hitting the safety quickly when cocked and locked. So I immediately canceled my order. Did get to meet and chat with Cooper, though.

A pal eventually got his pistol, sans magazine, of course. He waited for over a year for ONE magazine. Glad I missed out on that particular white elephant…

.

[NEPAKevin]

Most definitely; he can be cantankerous, for sure.

He seemed amused when I once mentioned that I still have one of the GI P-38 can openers, that he used to put in with orders, on my key ring.

[Chuck Haggard]

This thread just makes me miss my 3913, 3953 and 6906 a bit more.

[Jason Burton]

How does one tell whether its one of the Wisconsin guns or a seventrees?

There are quite a few small differences but, as I understand it, the most identifiable is that the guttersnipe rear sight on a Wisconsin (ASP Inc.) gun is basically "glued" onto the slide whereas the NY (Seventrees) guns had the sight dovetailed into the slide. As I understand it there are also no Seventrees produced ASPs on the 39-2, all were 39's.

[NEPAKevin]

Couple of seventrees holsters on ebay:

IWB for j-frame (http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-Frame-Holster-by-Seventrees-Undercover-Special-COLLECTORS-ITEM-/321279311914?pt=US_Holsters&hash=item4acdbd402a) and pocket holster (http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-Frame-Holster-by-Seventrees-Pocket-Holster-TAN-RH-COLLECTORS-ITEM-/321279313814?pt=US_Holsters&hash=item4acdbd4796).