Improving the Reload

[JV_]

Normally, I'm getting a 2.4'ish reload with a closed front shirt (on a good day). A few weekends ago, I was shooting with joshs and ToddG; they spent 15 minutes trying to identify where I was losing time. I took their advise and finally got around to dedicating a range session to reloads.

This evening, I broke 2.0!! Mid practice session, I got a 1.97 and a 1.98 followed by a slew of 2.0x reloads.

I still have a lot of work to ingrain the fixes. It's amazing how valuable the pointers are from two accomplished shooters. This is a great example of why you should practice with folks who can challenge you.

Thanks joshs and ToddG!!

[TAP]

What changes did you make to increase your speed? 0.4 sec is a great decrease in a short amount of time.

[JV_]

Faster identification of a slide lock, especially if I know it's coming. I needed to get my support hand down to my mag much faster, and start doing it sooner.

I was also doing too much follow through, almost getting another sight picture.

[joshs]

Awesome dude, that's a huge improvement in such a short time!

[DonovanM]

Reloads can just as easily be practiced in dry fire ;)

[John Ralston]

That's great...I need some one on one eval myself.

[seabiscuit]

Reloads can just as easily be practiced in dry fire ;)

How do you practice a slidelock reload on a Glock, dry-fire? Just lock the slide back and start from there?

Doesn't using the slide release button without rounds in the mag damage the pistol?

[Mike Honcho]

I think I read on Way of the Multigun that he found a good detail was angling the opening of the magwell towards the magpouch you're reloading from (as you're holding the pistol up in your workspace). It seems like it makes it a much smoother, more efficient "A to B" movement.

I'd like to try it, but my guns are in America, and I'm in Korea. Anybody try this? Is it worth training and ingraining?

[JV_]

Yes, I try to angle the mag well toward the pouch.

[TAP]

Faster identification of a slide lock, especially if I know it's coming.

I'm not sure how easy it will be to know it is coming in a stressful situation but if we can identify it quickly it will shave some wasted time. The surprise of slide lock can really slow us down.


I was also doing too much follow through, almost getting another sight picture.

Are you talking about your follow through after you slide lock but before you reload?

[JV_]

I'm not sure how easy it will be to know it is coming in a stressful situation but if we can identify it quickly it will shave some wasted time. The surprise of slide lock can really slow us down.IME, the surprise is worth .25s. But, working on the known reload seems to have made it easier to feel the different recoil impulse to detect the 'surprise' lock-back more quickly. Time will tell, I will be dedicating more range sessions to reloads over the next month or so.


Are you talking about your follow through after you slide lock but before you reload?Yes. I wasn't activating my "I have to reload" process fast enough. I am trying to doing it based on the differing recoil rather than the visual indications.

I feel like this hitch in my reload was developed from slow fire, precise, controlled range time ...

[KeeFus]

Reloads can just as easily be practiced in dry fire ;)

This. A couple years ago I decided to do a lot of dry fire practice that included quicker reloads. My reloads are routinely in the 1.5-1.7 range from concealment.

[JV_]

1.5 is pretty quick, is that from a closed front shirt?

[DonovanM]

How do you practice a slidelock reload on a Glock, dry-fire? Just lock the slide back and start from there?

Doesn't using the slide release button without rounds in the mag damage the pistol?

Yes, just lock the slide back. Avoiding putting undue stress on the barrel lug would surely be worth the use of dummy rounds. I use snap caps, but if you reload - or have a buddy who does - it would be much better to load some rounds without powder or primer and paint it an obvious color. My snap caps are all falling apart from thousands of repetitions as the top round in the magazine while practicing reloads - slide lock and not.


I think I read on Way of the Multigun that he found a good detail was angling the opening of the magwell towards the magpouch you're reloading from (as you're holding the pistol up in your workspace). It seems like it makes it a much smoother, more efficient "A to B" movement.

I'd like to try it, but my guns are in America, and I'm in Korea. Anybody try this? Is it worth training and ingraining?

I find it's better to angle my magwell specifically towards the orientation that my magazine is in my hand when it's coming out of the mag holder, not just toward the mag pouch. Bringing the gun to the mag, but keeping it in my workspace.

I also find it's helpful to watch the magazine drop free, and acquire the far edge of the magwell with my eyes, and pausing just before the mag goes in, to make sure the gun is aligning itself properly. These steps have allowed me to nail sub-1 second reloads pretty consistently out of a USPSA Production rig (with a SIG 226).

[KeeFus]

1.5 is pretty quick, is that from a closed front shirt?

NO, i'm sure it would be over 2 with a shirt. A 'shoot me first' vest I use in IDPA.

I think this one is close to the 1.5 sec. This is an older video of me from about a year and a half ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbx_wbIsHRM

[ToddG]

I find it's better to angle my magwell specifically towards the orientation that my magazine is in my hand when it's coming out of the mag holder, not just toward the mag pouch.

They're one and the same for me.

[jslaker]

They're one and the same for me.

Same.

In terms of orientation, the gun is high and pretty much right in my face. I find the easiest way for me to describe it is that when I'm looking straight ahead, the gun is essentially oriented such that I'm looking through the trigger guard. Since I like to index the fresh mag with the tip of my index finger on the nose of the top round (since I have xbawks hueg hands), this tends to make the gun and incoming magazine all line up at about the same angle.

At least that's what I've come up with that works for me. For some reason I find running 1R2s to be a lot of fun.

[Magsz]

Interesting topic guys. Im finding im having a hard time actually indexing my magazines to get them into the well of my G19. For whatever reason i dont have this issue on my M&P. Im wondering if its the angle at which im holding the gun or the slightly less tapered top of the Glock magazine as opposed to the M&P.

Any thoughts? Here are some videos. Im the guy in the Blue shirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxk8tnyop8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phy9585HdiQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gu81JknoZM&feature=related

Not the best videos in the world but they show a few fumbled reloads. Im hoping you guys can point out some areas where i can speed up or try some different techniques.

[JV_]

I have the same issue on the Glock 19. Have you ever compared the mag well of a 17 and a 19?

I was surprised how much bigger it is on the 17, specifically in the front strap area.

[Magsz]

Jv,

Ive been told that before and yeah man, a definite improvement going from the 19 to the 17 but the 17 is out of the question for me as its not an interesting firearm to me.

The 19 right now is my CCW and my competition gun.

I would say i could potentially bevel my own magwell but there is almost no material to remove there.

Short of looking into the darned well (which i do glance at) im not sure how i can speed up my indexing.

[JV_]

Do you feel like your problem is the magwell alignment, or your ability to consistently index the magazine in your left hand?

[Magsz]

JV,

My apologies if the terms im using are incorrect. Usually when i reference indexing the magazine i am speaking of putting my index finger onto the leading edge of the magazine as i extract it from my pouch.

I very rarely have any issues doing this and when i do it is usually because i failed to properly clear my cover garment.

My biggest source of inconsistency is exactly what you just mentioned, ie cramming the mag into the magwell. Im finding that im hitting the sides of the gun more often than not or there is some edge on the magazine contacting an area where its hanging up as i insert it into the gun.

I recently added a grip plug and that definitely helped but it hasnt solved the issue.

Besides all of this, any other areas you see where you think i might be able to speed up?

[Rverdi]

Magsz,
First, your reloads are pretty freaking good, likely better than a very high percentage of shooters.
That being said my only suggestion would be to try to work more fluidly. You seem to be breaking your reload in to a series of singular movements and those breaks are going to cost you time. It's not mag in then slide forward then press out, it's maginslideforwardpressout.
There's several vids on you tube of Todd or Ernest reloading, compare them to your vids and you'll see what I mean.
Other than that, it's all about reps, doit enough and you'll bang that mag well more consistently.

[JV_]

Besides all of this, any other areas you see where you think i might be able to speed up?Since I also suffer from the same problem with the 19 (hitting the sides), I'll let some of our seasoned instructors comment. This is one of those opportunities for me to stay in my lane.

[DonovanM]

Interesting topic guys. Im finding im having a hard time actually indexing my magazines to get them into the well of my G19. For whatever reason i dont have this issue on my M&P. Im wondering if its the angle at which im holding the gun or the slightly less tapered top of the Glock magazine as opposed to the M&P.

Any thoughts? Here are some videos. Im the guy in the Blue shirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxk8tnyop8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phy9585HdiQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gu81JknoZM&feature=related

Not the best videos in the world but they show a few fumbled reloads. Im hoping you guys can point out some areas where i can speed up or try some different techniques.

How often do you switch between your M&P and Glock? Do you have a lot more training with one over the other?

I'm not an instructor, but would recommend you shelve the M&P and train exclusively with the G19, as it's your carry gun.

[Magsz]

Y'know, Mr Verdi, you're right on the money with your assessments and ive been told the same exact thing from one of my best friends that is an LE trainer down here for a large agency.

I lack fluidity and im not sure why. Its something ive been aware of for a long time but its something i seem to have ingrained into my muscle memory that im having a heck of a hard time breaking.

I think ive trained myself to be this way as when i first started shooting everyone commented on how "smooth" i was yet also at the same time, how incredibly slow i was. I never tried to actively speed up until the end of 2010 as i still firmly believe im learning the fundamentals. I think speed is bullshit if you cannot make your hits but thats just me.

Over the years i think ive tried to accelerate where i can and slow down where i need to. This in turn leads to a bit of a herky jerky appearance to alot of my motions.

Any thoughts on how i can break this?

I bought my first handgun in 2008 and it was an M&P. I have exclusively shot M&P's since then. Not to derail the thread too much but i hate owning guns that collect dust. The G19 fascinated me as i believed it was "good enough" for all of my needs, ie a competition gun, a training gun and also a CCW gun. So far, beyond the fact that i shoot it like shit and im running into training issues with certain things i have dedicated myself to it completely and will give it at least six months or 10k rounds before i determine whether or not its going to work for me.

So, to answer your question, im 100% on the G19 and havent shot the M&P's since i bought the G19 earlier this year.

I DOUBT im so ingrained with the M&P and that my muscle memory is THAT good that im running into issues with the grip angle on the G19 throwing me off that much. Who knows, stranger things have happened.

JV, if you've solved the problem or are working on it id like to hear what you're doing!

[Rverdi]

It's Rich :o
I wouldn't sweat the gun, I don't think the difference between an M&P and the G19 is at all the issue. If the G19 does everything you need it to do, it's hard to argue with your choice, stick with it.
As for your form... As with anything else that proves a stumbling block, go back to the basicsof the skill. Don't try to diagnose or refine your reloads while shooting drills, or match stages, there's just too much going on.
Go back to some simple reload drills, 2 rounds in your mags, not too much distance so your getting solid hits. Start slow and focus on form. Gun goes to slide lock, hands move together, pistol to reload spot as off hand retrieves and indexes fresh mag. Firmly inserted as you start your press out while dropping slide, grip and finish press out.
Again slow and fluid until it feels right then start to build speed. You'll feel the rough spots as you push it and can diagnose those.
Just like the draw stroke there are no numbers, no steps, just a continuously flowing process that ends with a bullet striking the target.

[Magsz]

Great suggestions Rich, thank you.

Im going to work on that this week at the range.

I think my press outs could use some critique in this vein too as they're pretty awful. Ive got what i call the stuttering press out. :)

[JV_]

JV, if you've solved the problem or are working on it id like to hear what you're doing!

I learned that not all grip plugs are created equal. The best one, IMO, is the GlockMeister. It has a rounded curve where it meets the factory magwell, most square it off. It also fully covers the half moon cutout, some leave a slight lip exposed.

When playing around with the different mags, I noticed that I don't miss it as much with Glock 17 mags. I try to orient the magazines, in my hand, the same way every time; the only difference should be less meat/hand near the top of my magazine. I didn't narrow it down further.

I fully paint the right side bottom edge of the magwell, I use orange paint. Some have suggested a barber pole type paint layout, some use green, but I've found just painting it brings my attention to it sufficiently. IME, variations were more about personal preferences.

Another tip passed along, but didn't work out for me, is to try and put the flat side of the mag against the flat side of the magwell .... rather than trying to do a rocking motion of back-to-front or front-to-back. I don't do any of that, I just go straight in the magwell.

[joshs]

Magz,

As many have already said, your reloads are already very good, especially considering that those were all surprise reloads. Like Rich mentioned smoothing everything out will definitely help your overall reload speed. I find that the best way to do this is to do a lot of dry fire reloads, and, at first, your dry fire should be slow to create consistency before adding speed.

There are two really critical points of the reload: 1. getting a good grip on the mag in the pouch, and 2. inserting the mag in the gun. Everything else can be done as fast as you can move you arms/fingers. If you are having trouble indexing the mag with the mag well, then you need to slow down right before the mag goes in the gun. Don't pause, the mag should never stop moving, but just slow down enough to ensure that the mag doesn't hit the mag well.

The only other things I see are technique dependent; you aren't doing a press out after the reload and you're using your weak hand thumb to hit the slide release. Changing both of these will speed up your reload, but you may choose not to do them for other reasons.

[Magsz]

Josh,

Good feedback.

Some things i have done over the past year is to ensure that when i do grip the magazine coming out of the pouch i am doing so in a consistent and repeatable manner. Having a good grip on the mag right from the get go is pretty darned important.

The slide catch...thats a tricky one. My initial training taught me to always come over the top to release the slide via powerstroke. The methodology behind that makes sense and i agree with it however in my current outlook on shooting im more interested in getting faster for competitive purposes. I KNOW i can do both methods so they're available to me should i need to call on them.

Thumbing the catch may be a concession going just a bit too far for me right now. :)

Anyone have any benchmarks for reload speeds?

For example, a 4 second FAST is...lightening fast.
A 5 second FAST is pretty darned fast
A 6 second FAST seems to be attainable for the average, experienced shooter.

[Rverdi]

Excellent article on slidestop-v-overhand.
Not a bad reload demo either
http://pistol-training.com/archives/160

[joshs]

Just to be clear, I was referring to using your strong hand thumb to hit the release instead of your weak hand thumb. I was not advocating using the overhand method.

As far as benchmarks go, for a closed front cover garment, consistently around 2.5s is pretty good and 2s is very good. Improving beyond 2s takes a lot of work for very little pay off. My current personal best for a closed front cover garment is a 1.45, but I am way more comfortable in the 1.6-1.8 range. But, I do a lot of reload practice because I shoot USPSA Production, where reloads can be very important, and I want to win a coin.

All of the times listed are for a planned reload (still slide lock), a surprise reload adds around .35 seconds.

[longball]

Interesting topic guys. Im finding im having a hard time actually indexing my magazines to get them into the well of my G19. For whatever reason i dont have this issue on my M&P. Im wondering if its the angle at which im holding the gun or the slightly less tapered top of the Glock magazine as opposed to the M&P.

Any thoughts? Here are some videos. Im the guy in the Blue shirt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxk8tnyop8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phy9585HdiQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gu81JknoZM&feature=related

Not the best videos in the world but they show a few fumbled reloads. Im hoping you guys can point out some areas where i can speed up or try some different techniques.

There are more knowledgeable folks around than me but I didn't notice a couple things in the videos that may help.

1. It looked like the gun might be a little low when you are inserting the mag (too close to your body and too far under your chin). If the gun was a little higher and a little further out in front of you it may improve your line of sight into the mag well.
2. It aslo appeared to me like your eyes moved back to the target slightly before the mag was fully started into the well. It may only be a split second before but when dealing with something that has such a small margin of error it may be the difference between a smooth insertion and catching the top of the mag on the side of the well.

This may not be be the case and may not be of benefit to you but in my opinion it may be worth looking into. When I practice my reloads at home I make sure to do everything slowly and focus on being smooth then very, very gradually speed up once I feel like the reloads are as smooth as possible (slow is smooth, smooth is fast thing). If I botch one and do something wrong, I slow back down and practice some more at that slower speed.

[SouthNarc]

Magz one thing that stands out in all three vids on your reloads is that you retract the pistol into your workspace WHILE hitting the mag release. When you do that you're fighting gravity. You might want to think about keeping the gun level until the mag falls freely and then retracting the pistol for the incoming magazine.

[DonovanM]

I tried to get 5 perfect reloads in a row on tape. I fumbled the 5th one a little bit, but oh well.

I don't know why I keep flapping my fingers around like that on the gun. Weird!

Any comments/critiques are welcome :)

(No, the Huggies were not for me)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAzHppHX8_o

[Magsz]

Magz one thing that stands out in all three vids on your reloads is that you retract the pistol into your workspace WHILE hitting the mag release. When you do that you're fighting gravity. You might want to think about keeping the gun level until the mag falls freely and then retracting the pistol for the incoming magazine.

Pretty sure that will help with the drop free issue im having too. :)

Good feedback, thank you.

[JeffJ]

I've been silently following this thread and thought I would chime in - I've been practicing my reloads pretty religously lately and have found that "shocker alert" practice helps. In fact, I shot a steel match last Sunday and on one string I had a complete brain fart and didn't swith mags, ran dry, had a complete surprise lock back and reloaded without thinking to finish the string. Turns out I shot that faster than I shot the previous string (reloads good:) - transitions bad:()

Also, I recently took a mini-class in which the instructor advocated activating the slide lock with the weak hand thumb, rational was that you could restablish your grip with the strong hand after dropping the mag and then activate the slide lock and reestablish the weak hand grip during the press out. This assumes that you can't reach all the controls without altering your strong hand grip which is a reality for a lot of people. I haven't spent any time in dry fire to decide whether or not I like the idea, just thought I'd put it out there.