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WDW
06-02-2011, 03:13 AM
Who has ever had an ND, how did it happen, what were the consequences, and what did you learn from it?
I have had one and I have been shooting my entire life. It was about two years ago. I was on my own outdoor range shooting a Glock 19. I was about to break it down and clean it at my bench. I had a holstered condition 1 gun. I unholstered, dropped the mag, and right when I was about to clear it, I got a phone call. I reholstered and took the call. About 10 minutes later I continued my cleaning. I unholstered the gun and just knew I had cleared it when I dropped the mag. I pointed the gun downrange and pulled the trigger (a step in breaking down a Glock as we all know) and boy was I surprised when it went bang. Following one rule (never point a weapon @ anything you don't intend to kill) helped save me when I broke another. I learned that no matter what, if I am breaking a gun down, and I don't do so immediately after clearing, it needs to be triple cleared before I do so. I felt so stupid but thankful only my pride was hurt.

JHC
06-02-2011, 05:29 AM
After nearly 40 years of safe gun handling with a perfect record I made a mistake clearing a 12 gauge pump. "Knowing" it was now empty but cocked and not wanting to store it cocked, I aimed at the concrete wall of my basement about 3' to my front and "cleared" it alright.

The brain can process so fast it's stunning. You can see an orange blossom and an exploding cloud of concrete dust and still have time to think "What the fuck is that?" before the wall of a deafening blast hits you.

I was coming off of weeks of crushing 18 hour workdays and maxed out stress and I'd noticed I was having trouble driving and concentrating on many tasks. I was shot out.

I had also long rejected the notion that sooner or later it would happen to all of us. I called that a total BS failure of will attitude and I think I had said so on the Net in a few places.

Well I got my comeupance alright. I was very conscious at the time to clear the gun pointed at a backstop however. Glad for that.

And FWIW I was not impressed at all in the effect of a standard load of nine 00 buckshot on cement. Hell, just a minor ding and a lot of dust.

irishshooter
06-02-2011, 12:11 PM
both of those are the "correct" way to have a ND IMO. gun pointed "down range" and at a backstop capable of stopping the projectiles.

Frank D.
06-02-2011, 02:06 PM
I haven't had one (knock on wood), but good on you guys for sharing. Complacency kills, reminders like these are very welcome.

DocGKR
06-02-2011, 02:12 PM
I used to cut the finger tips off the thumb and index finger of my nomex aviator gloves, however I had an occurrence a couple of years ago where the cut edge of glove fabric on my right thumb got stuck under the edge of the AR15 selector, briefly preventing me from firing the carbine until I jerked the fabric out. Should have learned my lesson, right? Well, I forgot my new gloves when I went to a carbine course 2 years ago, so I just used an old pair with cut fingers that were at the bottom of my gear bag… Needless to say, Murphy struck. During a drill where we shot over the top of a vehicle, then transitioned to the support shoulder and dropped to an urban prone behind a tire, my left trigger finger glove edge got stuck under the selector when I pushed it to safe as I dropped down behind the vehicle--as I jerked the edge of the leather out from under the lever, the selector flipped off safe at the same time my left middle finger tip caught the trigger. BANG! ND for me. Fortunately the barrel was pointed in a safe direction. But a lesson was re-learned and a pair of gloves tossed into the trash…

DonovanM
06-02-2011, 08:46 PM
I had just gotten my first pistol and carry license and got back home from the range for the 3rd or 4th time ever. I had loaded it up and holstered it before I left the range, and when I got home, I cleared the chamber but neglected to notice I still had a magazine in the son of a bitch. I didn't even bother to decock after "clearing" the chambered round. I don't remember when I ejected the magazine, but somewhere in the middle of things I stepped out to do something or other.

Anyway, I came back, my SIG was cocked with a round in the chamber sitting on my desk. I pick it up to unscrew the left side grip panel. I need a better grip to get the screw loose so I shift it in my hand and tighten down. Finger goes in the trigger guard, 125gr Speer Gold Dot going 1400fps goes through a keyboard, my desk, 2 layers of sheetrock behind my desk, and into the bathroom adjacent to my room. It skips off the tile floor, apparently ricochets off the toilet, then the cabinet, and lands conveniently in the garbage can.

Scared the living bejesus out of me, not only immediately but a few days after. Still gives me chills. Could have killed someone if my angle had been slightly different and if I wasn't the only one who used that bathroom. I put the thing away for about a week until I could trust myself not to be such a goddamn idiot again.

Then, a number of months later, at my second USPSA match, I 180ed and swept an RO. Slide was locked back, but that's no excuse. Put my guns away again for a little while.

Now I'm trying every day not to have or come close to a #3. Please learn from my mistakes.

YVK
06-02-2011, 10:07 PM
I've had four. One was in first year of gun ownership. I shot a 1911 and, in retrospect, I think I had a trigger finger freeze. I started to look over the gun, and, in a process, managed to unfreeze that trigger well enough to fire the weapon. It was pointed somewhat downrange, but I know that a bit more stupidity could've been fatal.

The other three were identical and happened within last 18 months - premature shot off while going fast on pressout with Glock 19. Two times bullet went several feet over the target and I consider those as full-fledged NDs. One time the gun was leveled, but the shot came out sooner than I needed it. I consider it a full-fledged ND too. At this point, I dunno if pressout technique is for me, or I shouldn't do it with Glock, although I've never had it with a 1911.

JHC
06-03-2011, 05:44 AM
I understand your rating them an ND (early discharges on the press outs) by your own standards. Me, I'd just say they were misses. What trigger was that btw?

YVK
06-03-2011, 09:29 AM
I understand your rating them an ND (early discharges on the press outs) by your own standards. Me, I'd just say they were misses. What trigger was that btw?

First - with standard trigger, but I can more or less write that one off as I was just self-learning pressout. The last two were with negative connector installed, approximately 5.25 lbs or so trigger pull. I got rid of negative connector after that.

texasaggie2005
06-03-2011, 09:38 AM
I've had 1 in 20+ years of gun shooting. Last summer my younger brother (Capt. USMC) and I rented a private bay at a local range. Nothing serious, just a "fun shoot" get together. I was shooting a XD45 at the time.

I was probably 300 rounds deep when I had decided to lube it a little, as I hadn't before shooting. After lubing, we topped off our mags and we both walked up to the berm and did some made-up competition shoots. After a couple of mags, I realized I had over lubed and it was making my grip and trigger slick.

At a pause in the shooting for him to reload (I had two in the mag and one in the chamber) we chatted for 2 seconds about him shooting better than I was. I told my brother I was headed back to the bench to wipe it down, and he acknowledged and stayed behind to tape up new targets.

To this day, I can't explain why, but I didn't drop my mag, clear it or anything. Just holstered it, and walked back to the bench. Got a rag, unholstered and started to wipe the trigger down. KABOOM! I was facing down range, and I had the pistol pointed down and to my left. Round hit about 3 feet from my left foot and buried into the soft sand. My brother was about 15 yards in front of me to my right. I barely had a grip on it, and it flew out of my hand into the dirt. Scared the absolute living shit outta me.

I just stood there for a couple of seconds getting my head outta my ass and trying to figure out what happened. My brother walked up and asked what happened. As I recovered and cleared my pistol, I explained and apologized. It flustered me pretty good, and I had to relax for a bit and get my act together. I cleaned up and after about 15 minutes, went back to shooting with a brand new attitude.

I took several lessons away from that experience and it has completely changed how I handle a gun. I was too lax before, and I'm super anal about safety now.

1) If I'm going back to the bench, I shoot until slide lock, visually and physically clear the chamber, drop the empty mag, drop the slide, dry fire in a safe direction, then reholster before ever turning around and walking back.

2) Muzzle control. Of all the rules I broke, adhering to this one singularly prevented injury.

3) Don't finger the trigger unless you have triple cleared.

4) I'm not as smart/good as I thought. This has led me to buy a new pistol, look into classes, join this forum and try and learn as much as I can.

JHC
06-03-2011, 10:24 AM
First - with standard trigger, but I can more or less write that one off as I was just self-learning pressout. The last two were with negative connector installed, approximately 5.25 lbs or so trigger pull. I got rid of negative connector after that.

A couple years ago I was using the standard connector in all but one Glock and in the one exception it was a Gen 3 G17 and a minus that just came out SWEET for games but I would never carry. Each Glock is sort of unique and this one with a Scherer minus was much lighter than the guns I have today with minus connectors. With that gun, I'd trip a shot way early before the sights were settled on target at least once per training session and at least once per match.

Based on that I dissed the minus in discussion on M4C and someone replied that my problem was doing so much shooting with my carry 5.5s and then sometimes picking up the light trigger gun and if I'd standardize on the minus I would resolve this.

I flipped that particular 17 to get the Gen 4 G17 more than a year ago (a real peach of a Gen 4 too) and took that advice and pretty much standardized on the minus. None of my current battery ends up nearly so light with a minus connector. Almost all my shooting is now minus across the line up and what that reply post told me has proven out. I think I've got about 3-4K rounds fired this year and I've only fired early on press out twice going for hyper speed and both of those rounds impacted in the "throat/clavicle" area vs the paper plate . . . and a third time going for hyper speed on the 3x5 in a FAST drill and the shot parted the hair of the IPSC cardboard but missed the card.

Just food for thought.

Oh, and btw, I've seen DocGKR post elsewhere that he and his "they" use the minus and have found actual pull weights close to 5lbs give or take a skosh and that's my sense of my guns also. Gen 4's a tad heavier, Gen 3's a tad lighter but not that far different.

David Armstrong
06-03-2011, 04:59 PM
I've had two, about 10 years apart, both much the same. A distraction while doing whatever I was doing, then going back to the gun and messing up the sequence without it registering.

Joe in PNG
06-03-2011, 06:14 PM
Just a couple with .22 pistols.
-Back 16 years ago with a rental Ruger MkII .22- back when I was teaching myself how to shoot (wrong). The gun failed to shoot during a string, and with trigger on finger I tilted the muzzle up to check the chamber... and put a round into the celing. Doh!

-A few years ago, with my ancient High Standard Duramatic. I was using a high grip, which with my huge hands tends to accidently engage the safety at times. During one string of shots, I pressed the trigger and nothing. So, muzzle pointed safely downrange, I pressed the safety and BANG!

Rains on Parades
06-08-2011, 05:05 PM
While I didn't pull the trigger, I consider myself to have participated in this ND. This was in 1998 my last day in the Army I was driving home the next day. My roommate and I were talking guns and with his only experience in handguns being with the 1911 he was unfamiliar with a loaded chamber indicator, and wanted to see it demonstrated with my USPc .45. So I got out my pistol, put a round in the chamber and put the weapon on safe(He was watching me the entire time), and handed him the pistol, while pointing to the red-line that indicated a loaded chamber. He looks at the pistol for a few seconds and just out of the blue flips off the safety and pulls the trigger. We were standing face to face and he was holding the pistol at a 90 degree angle between us(which probably saved my life as the bullet would have hit me in the torso). The bullet passed through a can of carpet cleaner and a can of shoe polish before embedding in our barracks wall.

What did I learn? Well while not one of the 4 rules, my father had always taught me to never hand anyone a loaded weapon. And that brought home the wisdom of that statement. Even in a situation where the entire purpose of the activity was for him to see a loaded weapon, somehow shit went down. Also seeing the shoe polish and carpet cleaner spread across half the wall of our room really brings home the fact that bullets don't give a fuck.

Afterwards he swore that I unloaded the pistol before I gave it to him, to this day I don't understand what was going through his head. He also later told me that since he liked firearms and was around them a lot he had always taken it for granted that he would be a part of some accident like that.

As a side note a lot of things contributed to that situation not working out much worse for us. Besides the bullet missing me, the unit was training in the field that day except for me because I was going home and him because he was an armorer, so the barracks were empty save for us. And our barracks had concrete walls so the bullet stopped there as well as the gun report.

JDM
06-08-2011, 05:48 PM
I've been present for three NDs. responsible for one.

1. I sent a round of federal 00 buck through the floor of the trunk of my car in the parking area of a wilderness range. No one was injured. No damage to anything but the floor of my trunk. I thought the chamber was empty and I was gonna drop the hammer for the drive home. It's wasn't empty. Gun was a Mossberg 590.

2. My brother picked up the SAME shotgun from the above incident, cycled the action, and sent a load of birdshot through the ceiling of my house. Just the ceiling was damaged, No damage to the actual roof of the house. Also of note, the shockwave of the round going off shattered a piece of tempered glass on a nearby entertainment center. He thought it was an empty gun. It wasn't.

3. A friend of mine was doing dryfire work with a Glock 19. He finished and was going to reload the piece so as to make ready to carry it. He inserted a loaded mag right as his phone range. After the phone call was over, he cycled the action and pressed the trigger intending to do one last dry trigger press thinking the gun was empty. It wasn't. The JHP went through his mattress, through his box spring, through an interior wall through a piece of entertainment center tempered glass, struck the carpeted ground in front of the entertainment center, traveled underneath the carped for several feet, deflected up and out of the carpet and came to rest against, but not in, another interior wall. The worst damage was to the carpet.

Al T.
06-09-2011, 06:48 AM
NDs seem to drop up at two points. One is clearing a bottom feeder and dry firing.

Twice, I've known folks to clear autochuckers backwards (check chamber, drop magazine) and shoot themselves or others. Now days, I teach folks to drop magazines and store them under the pinky of the shooting hand while they lock the slide back or rack the slide several times.

Revolvers seem to go bang while dry firing as there seems to be a desire to get one more good trigger roll in after the reload. As many folks learn from listening, I think it's a good idea to tell yourself out loud that the gun is now loaded and to load/unload in another room.

As for my personal NDs, one was through a closed window with a 1911. Absolutely no idea what I was thinking when I picked up the .45 off my night stand and calmly sent a 230 gr bullet into the yard. That was 30 years ago. A couple of years later, I was dry firing a new S&W and put a bullet into a wall. Yeah, I had reloaded and wanted to get one last presentation in before dinner.

rjohnson4405
06-09-2011, 09:05 AM
I had one that was a bit different. Lever action .357 Rossi Rifle. My Dad insisted on a trigger lock so I put one on. Then one day decided I wanted to dry fire it so I started cycling the action to empty the gun. As I closed the lever the trigger lock pulled the trigger and sent a .357 magnum through the roof of the house and out into the woods. Thank God I didn't have it pointing towards the neighborhood. My brother and I repaired the roof and never told my parents.

Shellback
06-09-2011, 10:28 AM
Interesting topic. I'm about to jump on a plane but was reading an article this morning that stated we've had 90 deaths in Iraq due to ND's. Here's a link if you're interested in reading it http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/daniel-zimmerman/negligent-discharges-kill-90-u-s-soldiers-in-iraq/.

texasaggie2005
06-10-2011, 10:28 AM
I think it's a good idea to tell yourself out loud that the gun is now loaded and to load/unload in another room.

I do this EVERY time I handle a gun in my house. My wife thought I was nuts when I unloaded / loaded in the closet before dry fire practice in the bedroom, and constantly announcing whether I am unloaded / loaded. Until I explained my reasons why. Now she says it makes her more comfortable to hear my operations and not to interrupt me while in the process.

JRCHolsters
06-10-2011, 10:57 AM
I had one when I first turned 21 and got my carry permit. I had bought a glock when they first came into the country. I remember being pretty excited about getting such a new and unique handgun.
After a couple of weeks of carrying it, I was practicing field stripping it over and over. on my last re-assembly, I slid the mag in without even thinking about it, pointed it down at my floor and proceeded to put a 9mm slug into the basement. First instinct after the obligatory WTF, was to set the gun down as if it was possessed. I just thank my lucky stars that I was practicing safe pointing of the firearm.
We all can have cranial vapor-locks and it is so important to always be sure where that muzzle is.

longball
06-13-2011, 10:22 AM
I had 1 ND when I was about 12. Growing up my dad was very strict about muzzle dicipline but I wasn't ever exposed to all the safety precautions I take now. One day while at the house by myself I was messing around with a 35 Remington pump action that I deer hunted with. Typically our guns were never loaded in the house but for some reason, on that particular day, the 35 was. When I picked it up and saw that it was loaded I proceeded to unloaded it in the house (which I was taught NOT to do). The only way to empty that gun is to cycle the rounds out one by one so I pointed it towards the ceiling, ejected the first round and sent the second into the chamber, apparently with my finger on the trigger. After the deafening report from the muzzle and the famous WTF moment, I saw a ray of light coming from outside and realized just how close I had come to seriously jacking up my world. It took several minutes of standing there like a statue before could muster up the courage to put the safety on, walk outside, and clear the gun safely. That was possibly the scariest moment of my life. Knock on wood, that is the only one I have had.

I witnessed one at a class a couple years ago that shook everyone present to the core. Throughout the class I was on the line next to a guy who could not, for the life of him, keep his trigger finger out of the trigger guard of his Sig when it didn't need to be there. It got bad enough that towards the end of the class the instructor warned him that if he didn't get his problem fixed asap he would have to leave and wouldn't be allowed to come back. That statement actually worked for the remainder of the class until the end of the class when we had a competition to put into use what we had learned that day. The competition included shooting and moving from different positions, several mag changes, and ended with 2 shots on a swiveling hostage target from behind cover. The first shot on the hostage target was to be fired around the right side of cover, then a transition to weak hand, and another shot on the target from the other side of cover. Apparently, everything this moron ever learned about safely handling a handgun went out the window halfway through his run, under the crushing stress of a shot timer :rolleyes: as he was moving across the range to engage the hostage target. As he went to transition to his weak hand he apparently left his finger inside the trigger guard, again, which caused him to put a round just between his feet when he aquired his weak hand grip. Due to the narrow stance he had taken as not to expose his feet around the cover, the 9mm round was only a couple inches from either foot. To further add to the horror of the situation, myself and several other students observed this collosal F up from the deck where we had all landed after seeing the business end of this guy's Sig as he was running across the range to the last barricade. I hate to imagine what could have happened had that ND happened while his muzzle was pointed in the direction of the rest of the class.

To the instructors credit, he tried everything in the world to safely make the guy better. I understand in his mind that is his job but I wouldn't have minded to finish the class without that individual. He also couldn't see the guy muzzle us from where he was (following with the timer) before he almost shot himself in the foot. After the class I told the instructor that I planned on taking another one of his classes as long as that guy wasn't there to which he promptly informed me that he would not be back.

Shellback
06-30-2011, 01:26 PM
Just a reminder. (http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/14948475/newnan-officer-shoots-girlfriend-in-abdomen) Don't become complacent. RIP

Wheeler
07-01-2011, 03:19 PM
I've never had an ND, it's always been the gun's fault. :cool:

section8usmc
07-23-2011, 08:11 AM
I have had one instance of this in my life. I was at my mother's house taking care of a 13 line ground squirrel problem. It was hot, a long day, as there were tons of these critters. I went in for a drink. Surely I cleared it before I came in. Well, we all know what assume does. I got in the sliding glad door, closed it, and dropped whatever was in my hand, with the other hand firmly gripping the barrel just above the stock, the butt resting on the carpet. I squatted to grab what I had dropped, muzzle pointed in a safe direction. When I did, my pocket somehow snagged the trigger, sending a hollow point pellet at 1000 GPS glancing off the wall and into the ceiling.

I don't think I have ever felt like more of a tool in my life. Muzzle awareness is always key obviously, as well as the other golden rules. Not hard to see why there are several, redundant rules. Pellet or no, it still gave me that wake up call.

Seen on another forum : 4 safety rules for Glocks ( on top of the goldOen rules, and also works for CC guns with no safety ) 1) Keep your finger straight and off the trigger. 2) Keep your finger off the God damn trigger. 3) Keep your God damn finger off the trigger. 4) Keep your God damn finger off the God damn trigger.

Remember...when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

Tamara
07-23-2011, 09:50 PM
While I didn't pull the trigger, I consider myself to have participated in this ND.
I can relate.

A former roommate got his first optically-sighted rifle, a baseline Savage 110 in .30-'06 with a 3-9X optic. Pretty typical deer rifle. He kept it in his closet with a full magazine and an empty chamber and, the first Saturday night after he'd brought it home, he cleared the mag and I heard him dry-firing it in his room.

I wandered in and he was laying across his king-size bed, dry-firing at the wooded slope across the street (we were on the third floor, with a fairly busy intersection right below us.) I flopped down next to him and called out a target or two "The garage sale sign to your nine-o-clock." *CLICK!* "That rock between those pines to your two." *CLICK!*

This went on for a bit and he got done dry-firing and started talking to me. As we were talking, he absently started thumbing rounds into the magazine to put the gun away again. He was propped up on one elbow, still looking at me and talking as he ran the bolt forward and, like in slow motion, the thought formed in my head "Oh shit. He didn't hold the top round in the mag down. He just chambered a live rou..." *BANG!*

A .30-'06 in a smallish apartment bedroom is loud. The muzzle blast of a .30-'06 less than a foot away from some miniblinds will seriously mess them up. Modern upscale apartment complexes are remarkably soundproof, and can act as a large, single-chamber suppressor for even a major caliber rifle, preventing drivers at an intersection three stories below from hearing a single report overhead.

I have never, ever done dryfire stuff with the ammunition in the same room again and, to the best of my knowledge, neither has he.

So, I haven't had an ND of my own (knock on wood) but I'm not entirely off the hook for this one. (Or the other one. But that's another story.)

fuse
07-24-2011, 08:28 PM
Wow. What stopped the round?

vecdran
07-25-2011, 02:40 AM
Let's see. I had two ND's in one weekend, which were massive wake up calls. Thankfully they both ended up in sand/dirt.

ND #1 on Saturday:
I was instructing some brand new shooters on the final gun they wanted to shoot for the day, a Taurus .44mag. The entire time I was stressing the power of the cartridge and the importance of safety. The irony was ridiculous.

As I was teaching one shooter, I stopped him for a reason I can't remember, and he put the gun down with it cocked into single action. I took that opportunity to instruct them how to "safely" drop the hammer on a revolver without firing it. While facing and talking to them behind me. With my left hand middle finger right next to the forcing cone. It's supposed to be thumb on hammer, then press the trigger...*WHAM*

Whoops.

Thankfully I had the presence of mind to keep the muzzle pointed downrage, and it impacted the berm. I somehow managed to remain completely calm as I contemplated whether or not I had just shot my left hand with a .44. I excused myself, identified the blood pouring out of my middle finger, and bandaged it. Thankfully, I just had flayed several layers of skin off my middle finger, and still have some powder embedded in there to this day. I now clear a loaded revolver cocked into single action by shooting it.

ND #2 on Sunday:
Pretty straight forward. Finally got the time off to shoot a USPSA match for once, was in the middle of a round hoser stage, called a poor shot, made it up, which tossed my plan into disarray. As I was speed reloading I was already thinking about how I was going to recover shooting the next target array. Well, my finger took that as it's cue to pull the trigger, and before I had even seated the mag, I had already launched a round over the top of the berm. Thankfully, there was a pretty damn big hill behind the berm. Go DQ'd of course. By one of the local GM's. While shooting in the super squad. I felt like the world's biggest tool.

Moral of the story? SLEEP. I was running on four hours of sleep total over the previous three days, and it was showing. Total lack of concentration caused both ND's. The first incident changed how I handle revolvers, the second incident forced me to rethink and retrain my reload technique, with intentional placement of my trigger finger THE FUCK away from the trigger during reloads.

Tamara
07-25-2011, 06:44 AM
Wow. What stopped the round?

Lightly-wooded hillside across the street.

Thankfully he was getting off that "one last dry-fire snap" rather than just dropping the striker because, while it would have been tough to accidentally put one into the street from the angle he was at, if he'd just elevated the muzzle and pulled the trigger before putting the gun away, there was nothing but subdivisions on the far side of that berm for miles and miles.

section8usmc
07-25-2011, 07:38 PM
I am thoroughly enjoying reading these. The more the better. I could read these for hours if we had them. It makes you think, and also makes you realize all of the different possible scenarios that might / could / can / will cause an ND. There is no better tool for learning than the experience of others. Be it one of the instructors teaching while standing beside you at the range, or reading these great forums of people's real life experiences with holsters, guns, CC advice, or NDs like this, it all helps. Just from this site, we can learn how to save a few bucks, or save a life. Some of the best reading on firearms I have seen on the net. Nice to see everyone helping each other. World could use a lot more of it.

shep854
07-28-2011, 08:36 PM
I've had two, about 10 years apart, both much the same. A distraction while doing whatever I was doing, then going back to the gun and messing up the sequence without it registering.

I know someone who blew his leg off at the knee, doing this with a 12ga.:( He was unloaded, got interrupted and left it laying on his bed. When he returned, he sat down and pulled the shotgun toward himself. A wrinkle caught the trigger...

iCarbine
07-31-2011, 10:05 AM
I've never had one per se, however, someone else did due to my negligence. When I was 18 (now 33), I purchased my first gun, a Ruger 10/22. I did not grow up in a shooting family, and although my dad did, he hadn't owned a gun since I was a toddler. After one range session, I must have failed to clear the weapon prior to storing it in its case. A few days later, while I was away, my 15 year old brother invaded my room and pulled the rifle out. While peering through the scope, he pulled the trigger and sent a round out the double-pained window into the street were several kids were playing. Thankfully, no one was hurt and I don't think the kids outside even knew what happened. To this day, we have no idea where the round landed. There was a large wall and house directly across the street. The round must have hit in our front yard, the street, the wall or this house but no evidence was ever found. The fallout of this incident was not pretty.

Two weeks ago, my neighbors lost their 17 year old son to a negligent discharge to the back of his head. Apparantly this young man was at a friend's house and they had been playing with a revolver. My neighbor's son was sitting on the floor next to the bed and when the gun was picked up, the trigger was pulled. He was declared brain dead the next day and taken off a ventilator. Not only was he my neighbor, I worked closely with him at his school.

Gadfly
08-01-2011, 10:49 AM
Almost…

Back in college, I bought a Taurus PT908 (before I knew any better) thinking it would be easier for my girlfriend to hold than my Beretta 92FS. It had a few feeding problems when I first got it, so I took it home and polished the feed ramp. After I polished it up, I decided to load up a mag of the hollow points I had feeding trouble with the day before. While pointing the pistol in a safe direction, finger off the trigger, I racked the slide and let it fly several times. Everything feed fine. As I was doing this, the phone rang. I locked the slide to the rear, and dropped the mag while I walked to get the phone. I talked to my buddy on the phone for about 10 minutes. During this time, I picked up my pistol, and dropped the slide. I pointed it at my TV while we talked, but I did not pull the trigger. I played with the safety; I de-cocked and cocked the pistol as I chatted. We said good bye and I set the pistol down. I picked up the hollow point rounds I had ejected before the phone call and picked up the magazine. I loaded the rounds back in the mag. One was missing. I looked around the floor and had my OH SHIT moment. I racked the slide and a round flew out. I would love to think the extractor failed to grab this last round, but I am sure somewhere in the unloading/phone answering process, I had a brain fart.

I don’t know why I did not pull the trigger as I sat talking on the phone. The gun was in my hand, and I cocked the hammer and used the de-cocker 3 or 4 times at least. I was in an apartment at the time and no one else was home. But I would have taken the life of my beloved 27” TV, which was my dry fire target of choice…

I did not A/D (N/D) that day, but only by dumb luck.

fuse
08-02-2011, 08:56 AM
Great, honest, thread.

rshives
08-15-2011, 05:55 PM
I was laying in bed watching TV in my studio apartment a long time ago and had the revolver in my hand. I absently pulled the trigger and sent a round out of the wall of my apartment. I scared myself so badly that I am now considered anal about safety.

shep854
08-15-2011, 07:33 PM
Two...1) I was handling (actually playing with an S&W K-10 revolver, loading and unloading while watching TV. Lost track, and put a hole through my apartment door. Thankfully, my neighbor wasn't walking by.
2) I was carrying my Combat Commander, but had to leave it in my car when at work. I was in the habit of lowering the hammer when I left it in the car. I was very methodical with the procedure, telling myself as I did it, "1--grasp the pistol firmly, depressing the grip safety. 2--get a good grip on the hammer. 3--release the thumb safety. 4--press the trigger, slowly lowering the hammer."

On the day in question, I went, "1--grasp gun. 2--squeeze trigger. 3--release sa--BLAM!":eek: Fortunately, all I shot was a tire, through the wheel well.:confused:

Tamara
08-16-2011, 06:10 AM
At the first gun shop at which I worked, we had a relationship with a pawn shop owner down in the city. Every few months, he'd come out to us with a briefcase containing a few old Colt Police Positives and Smith .38/.32 Terriers and Browning Vest Pockets and we would swap him a big box of Lorcins and Hi-Points and Jennings and cash to make up the difference.

One time he came up, the sticking point in the negotiations was a PPK, an early Interarms-marked stainless example. Initially he was thinking about keeping it. Then he wanted too much for it. Then he relented and we added it to our side of the pile.

He handed the Walther to me, and I locked the slide back and checked the chamber, and passed it to a coworker over at the computer. She printed a trigger tag out for it and handed it, slide still locked back, to one of the other salespeople, who put it in the showcase.

Then our buddy the pawn shop owner crawfished. I sighed and pulled the gun from the showcase, removing the trigger tag, and laid it on the counter between him and my boss. About the time pawn shop guy was leaving, I was walking out of the store to cross the street and get lunch for everybody.

When I came back, there was the PPK on the counter again. "Arthur changed his mind?" I asked, and was told that, indeed, he had sat in his car for a moment and then come back in and threw the Walther in on the deal at the last minute. Sweet. I still had the trigger tag handy, so I put it back on the gun and passed it to the salesman who put it back in the showcase with one hand while eating his hamburger with the other.

I wandered off to a far corner of the showroom where I could eat my burger in peace, back turned to the sales floor, when *KA-BAM!*

A customer is standing there with the PPK in his hand and an appalled look on his face, smoke wisping theatrically from the barrel and a divot in the linoleum at his feet containing a flattened Winchester Silvertip.

That's right, Arthur had loaded the PPK back up in his car, and then brought it back in to add to the trade, and not one person who handled it from the time I picked it up and put the trigger tag on it to the time the customer made the loud noise had bothered to inspect the chamber because, hey, we had already done that when he brought it in the first time, right? :eek:

Lesson learned: I don't care if I set the gun down and just look away for a second; that gun gets checked again when I pick it up. Period. Unless it has been in my field of vision the whole time, I don't know what might have happened to it while I wasn't paying attention.

shep854
08-16-2011, 08:05 AM
Good story, Tamara. Whenever I look at a gun in a shop, I personally clear it, even if the counter worker did so when handing it to me. I also return it with the action open, though it has gotten me some funny looks.
It may be totally unfounded, but there have also been rumors of people "palming" rounds into guns at a shop or show, hoping to cause an incident. Whether or not that's happened, I hark back to one of the first things I learned about guns as a kid; "There is no such thing as an unloaded gun!"

fuse
08-16-2011, 10:16 AM
It may be totally unfounded, but there have also been rumors of people "palming" rounds into guns at a shop or show, hoping to cause an incident.

I was told this by a gentleman working a table at a gun show.

Always wondered if it was true.

Odin Bravo One
08-16-2011, 01:14 PM
We had three today. All occured while loading, or changing magazines. The final one resulted in a GSW to the leg. Proof that you can only do so much, and holding hands only carries so far. Some people just do not have the same respect for life and death as others.

ToddG
08-16-2011, 02:04 PM
We had three today. All occured while loading, or changing magazines.

Of all the things I learned from competitive shooting, the kind of ingrained safety habits that go hand in hand with having everyone watching you -- and only you -- on the firing line are probably among the most meaningful day to day. Both as a competitor and a range officer, the focus that is put on muzzle direction and trigger finger location is more stringent than just about any gov/mil training I've ever seen.

JFK
08-16-2011, 03:07 PM
We had three today. All occured while loading, or changing magazines. The final one resulted in a GSW to the leg. Proof that you can only do so much, and holding hands only carries so far. Some people just do not have the same respect for life and death as others.

Three!!?!? Just curious but that seems like a lot in one day. Do you mind me asking what the situation was? High stress? Low experience?

Al T.
08-17-2011, 09:16 AM
the focus that is put on muzzle direction and trigger finger location is more stringent than just about any gov/mil training I've ever seen.

Agree completely. Excellent point!

Odin Bravo One
08-17-2011, 02:59 PM
Had another one today.

But only one.

To put things into proper perspective, three in a day of training 3rd world boogs is not high at all. The U.S. Army averages 1 ND/AD about every hour overseas at the various installations that require clearing all weapons prior to entry. And that is with step by step instructions and prior training. Proof that if you try to make something idiot proof, the world responds by producing a better idiot.

JFK
08-17-2011, 06:59 PM
Had another one today.

But only one.

To put things into proper perspective, three in a day of training 3rd world boogs is not high at all. The U.S. Army averages 1 ND/AD about every hour overseas at the various installations that require clearing all weapons prior to entry. And that is with step by step instructions and prior training. Proof that if you try to make something idiot proof, the world responds by producing a better idiot.

Ok. Perspective and situation make a difference. I was under the impression this was civilian training or at a range. Got it.

Odin Bravo One
08-17-2011, 07:57 PM
Guys I am training now are better trained, and well versed in firearms handling than most civilians I have seen holding guns in 1st world countries. Being an idiot is not solely restricted to third world countries. In a single hour at my local range, I counted 5 ND's. I promptly left. Trying to shoot during amateur hour is not my thing. Point I am trying to make is that no one is exempt, and as such we owe it to ourselves and anyone around us to remain cognizant of what we are doing, and not allowing ourselves to become "too cool", "too experienced", or just plain complacent.

Abraxas
08-17-2011, 08:35 PM
So far the closest I have ever had is when I have switched from one gun to another and the trigger is significantly lighter from one to the other and I start to apply pressure but it goes off before I am quite ready. Knock on wood that will be the closest I will ever come.

Kevin B.
08-18-2011, 06:07 AM
Proof that if you try to make something idiot proof, the world responds by producing a better idiot.

You can't stop stupid. You can only slow it down.

JMS
08-18-2011, 12:31 PM
Mine was on an M240.

The LAV-25 has a pintle-mounted M240 atop the turret in a Pratt scissor-mount for the Vehicle Commander to use at need. During a Table 11 run (leading up to a Table 12 qual), we got to our "simultaneous" engagement (gunner shooting the M242 main gun, VC shooting the pintle @ a separate target), I pitched my fire command to let my gunner go OFP, hammered the RPG team, scanned while reporting the engagement, cease-fired my gunner, all prior to setting the 240 to SAFE.

Once done with that, I realized my oopsie, but went about correcting it the wrong way. I leaned over to my left to atta-boy my gunner for a first-burst kill on his target while trying to use the pad of my palm at the base of my right index finger to press the safety. Ended up trying to do too much at once.

The M240 trigger is sorta wide, and significantly curved, and to safe the thing, one presses the stud on the grip right-to-left. Part of that pad-of-palm was low enough to press onto the outer portion of that fat trigger as I was applying pressure to the safety because I was leaned over and not in the position I should have been. So, even though my trigger finger itself was completely out of the guard, my own inattentiveness managed to help Houdini me out of an otherwise textbook run.

Worse, I FELT it happening, and might actually have sealed the deal by trying to heave myself upright instead of just freezing where I was.

It was, thankfully, only a single round and I was still pointed downrange, but an ND is an ND. Worse, I was not only a VC, but one of the unit's LAV Crewman Evaluators. The LCE that was there evaluating me was rady to just let it go because I verrrrrrry deliberately pressed the safety while visibly sighing heavily, instead of getting pissed-off, but it was too good a Teachable Moment to let go....and an ND is an ND.

Kyle Reese
08-18-2011, 12:37 PM
Mine was on an M240.

The LAV-25 has a pintle-mounted M240 atop the turret in a Pratt scissor-mount for the Vehicle Commander to use at need. During a Table 11 run (leading up to a Table 12 qual), we got to our "simultaneous" engagement (gunner shooting the M242 main gun, VC shooting the pintle @ a separate target), I pitched my fire command to let my gunner go OFP, hammered the RPG team, scanned while reporting the engagement, cease-fired my gunner, all prior to setting the 240 to SAFE.

Once done with that, I realized my oopsie, but went about correcting it the wrong way. I leaned over to my left to atta-boy my gunner for a first-burst kill on his target while trying to use the pad of my palm at the base of my right index finger to press the safety. Ended up trying to do too much at once.

The M240 trigger is sorta wide, and significantly curved, and to safe the thing, one presses the stud on the grip right-to-left. Part of that pad-of-palm was low enough to press onto the outer portion of that fat trigger as I was applying pressure to the safety because I was leaned over and not in the position I should have been. So, even though my trigger finger itself was completely out of the guard, my own inattentiveness managed to help Houdini me out of an otherwise textbook run.

Worse, I FELT it happening, and might actually have sealed the deal by trying to heave myself upright instead of just freezing where I was.

It was, thankfully, only a single round and I was still pointed downrange, but an ND is an ND. Worse, I was not only a VC, but one of the unit's LAV Crewman Evaluators. The LCE that was there evaluating me was rady to just let it go because I verrrrrrry deliberately pressed the safety while visibly sighing heavily, instead of getting pissed-off, but it was too good a Teachable Moment to let go....and an ND is an ND.

Did they NJP you for that?

JMS
08-18-2011, 02:48 PM
Literally nobody in or around the tower had any idea it even happened; I have no idea why, and I was made more nervous by the lack of an angry welcoming party than actually having committed the offense.

I rogered up for it to our Trng Chief/Master Gunner....and that's the last I heard of it, except for a WTF!? conversation with one of the more senior LCEs and "...don't do what I did..." storytimes.

My "recovering Catholic" status did not and does not lead me toward needless self-flagellation, so I somehow managed to NOT actively seek out formal punishment. ;)

MikeO
10-06-2011, 02:04 PM
I got into the very bad habit of not checking my GP100 before dry fire when I took it out of the safe cuzz, well, those guns are NEVER loaded when they are in the safe, I ALWAYS put them away UNLOADED. Picked it up, pointed it at the wall, and Bang! She Who Must Be Obeyed put a Band-Aid on the hole in the wall.

Some from the Air Force...

We were issued M1911A1s at the time. You went to the clearing bbl, inserted the muzzle, dropped the slide on empty gun, checked grip safety, checked thumb safety, dry fired, inserted mag, holster, post.

MSgt (not me) was arming up to backup troops responding to mass brawl at Man Camp bar. Armorer thought he would save him some time by handing him gun w mag already in it!? MSgt dropped slide, checked safeties, bang! Live fired it cuzz he didn't notice mag was in it.

Troop in van in armory parking lot. Armed w M16A2 w M203 attached. Thump! Round of 40MM HE goes through the roof of van, lands on armory roof, rolls to gutter.

Airmen practicing bbl changes on M60 in AFT (Alert Fire Team) facility in WSA (nuke Weapons Storage Area). Bang! Round goes through length of couch just behind two airman seated on it, hits wall.

Airman guarding KC135 Tanker. Brrrp! 3 round burst into wing of fully loaded tanker.

The best for last. A10 "Warthog" parked on ramp, maintenance van parked in front. BOOM! 30MM round through van and off into the Arizona desert.

JHC
10-06-2011, 06:14 PM
I got into the very bad habit of not checking my GP100 before dry fire when I took it out of the safe cuzz, well, those guns are NEVER loaded when they are in the safe, I ALWAYS put them away UNLOADED. Picked it up, pointed it at the wall, and Bang! She Who Must Be Obeyed put a Band-Aid on the hole in the wall.

Some from the Air Force...

We were issued M1911A1s at the time. You went to the clearing bbl, inserted the muzzle, dropped the slide on empty gun, checked grip safety, checked thumb safety, dry fired, inserted mag, holster, post.

MSgt (not me) was arming up to backup troops responding to mass brawl at Man Camp bar. Armorer thought he would save him some time by handing him gun w mag already in it!? MSgt dropped slide, checked safeties, bang! Live fired it cuzz he didn't notice mag was in it.

Troop in van in armory parking lot. Armed w M16A2 w M203 attached. Thump! Round of 40MM HE goes through the roof of van, lands on armory roof, rolls to gutter.

Airmen practicing bbl changes on M60 in AFT (Alert Fire Team) facility in WSA (nuke Weapons Storage Area). Bang! Round goes through length of couch just behind two airman seated on it, hits wall.

Airman guarding KC135 Tanker. Brrrp! 3 round burst into wing of fully loaded tanker.

The best for last. A10 "Warthog" parked on ramp, maintenance van parked in front. BOOM! 30MM round through van and off into the Arizona desert.

ROFLMAO man, BA, what kind of combat patch does the Air Force hand out? :D

MikeO
10-07-2011, 12:46 AM
Here's some more...

Two airman on base gate guard duty quick drawing on each other w their M15s (S&W M15 .38 revolver). Bang! One Airman shoots the other. Shooter is so freaked out while holstering his gun he shoots himself in the leg.

Airman drilled in torso had round go through his heavy blue jacket, blues shirt, t-shirt, him, t-shirt, blue shirt, into but not through far side of jacket. Made full recovery. This was around 1980, duty load was some oddball stuff, looked like a wadcutter pushed back into and almost flush w end of case.

Airman on gate guard duty late at night. Car w 4 drunks inside pulls up and driver gives her his drive through order. She asks for his ID. Driver guns it and drives onto base, swings around and is heading off base. She plants herself in front of approaching vehicle and raises hand to halt car. It doesn't. She draws M9 and fires 5 rounds at car. It keeps coming, she fires 5 more rounds as it passes her. She chases it on foot down the street, off base, and around the corner. Fires remaining 5 rounds at car as it drives away. She wounded one passenger, not seriously. She was promoted to a nice 8-5/Mon-Fri unarmed desk job. We called her "Riggs".

Shellback
10-07-2011, 10:41 AM
Police officer convicted of manslaughter due to ND, guy shot in throat. http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8380185

I'm not posting this to rag on the cop but simply as a reminder to be ever vigilent and follow the safety rules.

Nephrology
10-10-2011, 07:23 AM
I put a 9mm 115gr DPX into the wall of my apartment building when I was new to CCW. Had dropped the mag and was testing the trigger which I thought had issues (turns out it did). Thought I had cleared the gun - obviously hadnt. Pistol was aimed into the corner of my room which shared a wall with the bathroom - bullet fortunately hit a stud and went almost all the way through, punching out a 4x4" chunk of tile but not fully penetrating into the other room. Was 100% stone cold sober.

Needless to say my safety standards have gone up dramatically since. I refuse to drop the trigger on a firearm until I have racked the slide multiple times and visually/physically inspected magwell, breechface and chamber. Most frightening moment of my life - couldn't even touch a handgun for a couple days after, felt like a total retard.

Long tom coffin
10-10-2011, 10:33 AM
I've only had one, and that was enough to make me an anal retentive nazi about gun safety.

It was after I purchased my first handgun, a used S&W snub that I picked up off a very good friend of mine who was a retired St. Louis PD police detective with several years on the force and who was in several gunfights. It was one of his service weapons, and was still in very, very good condition. It was obviously well used but Wilke was always a big hardcore about gun maintenance so everything still worked like it was brand new. I was still in full on gun n00b mode and I thought it was the coolest thing ever to have that kind of weapon. I carry a commie G19 now but revolvers in general and snubs in specific have a special place in my heart. I think it's because I watched the French Connection too much as a kid.

I was out in the backwoods on my parents property doing some dry firing practice with it. I had just picked up on the concept and since I was brand new, I was an absolute stickler for every sort of gun mechanics. I unloaded all the rounds from the cylinder and placed them in my back pocket. While carefully watching the front sight, I practiced my trigger pulls.

On the third pull, the gun went bang. I wasn't wearing earpro and not expecting it, and I jumped about ten feet in the air. Fortunately I was in the middle of the woods aiming at a very large tree stump my uncles often use for bow practice, so the round didn't go anywhere dangerous. I took the empty casing out and headed back, thoroughly dazed.

I showed it to Wilke a few days later at work, and under his inspection, he noticed a manufacturing defect in the casing that caused it to get stuck in the cylinder. When I emptied the original rounds, I merely upended the cylinder and let them slide out; I didn't hit the ejector rod, which probably would have prevented it from happening. Since it was on my third pull, I'm willing to be the round was in the lowermost cylinder chamber, hidden by the bottom part of the frame, so I didn't see it at first.


Only ND I have ever had. I don't regret it, because it taught me 2 extraordinarily valuable lessons: 1) Always check, recheck, and then check again. 2) inspect every round of ammunition that goes into the gun. Period.

I'm just glad that my gun safety didn't completely breakdown, and I had decided to dry fire at a solid backstop with no one else around.

JRL
10-11-2011, 01:59 PM
I see one about to happen...

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44852868/ns/today-entertainment/t/swat-team-raids-pitts-world-war-z-warehouse/#.TpSRLv6pP1k

ford.304
03-09-2012, 07:25 PM
So, I realize this is a slight thread resurrection, but by all right I should have just had a ND and felt a need to confess my sins, or something. I'm still shaking I'm so pissed off at myself.

Working on some dry fire drills, recording video of myself doing press outs to compare to the video of ToddG working on them. I do my normal safety check, no ammo in the room all that.

I finish recording, figure I'm done with dry fire, so I go load back up, slide the gun into its holster, and then sit down to edit the video. Halfway through, in a fit of pure brain-deadness, I notice some minor detail I've been doing wrong, and completely forgetting that I reloaded the gun, stand up to try to mimic the video. I'm literally halfway through the trigger press, trigger already back and cylinder rotated, when I notice that there's something in the cylinder... I was an 1/8th of an inch from putting a 357 magnum round right through the bathroom door and shower wall. If I don't notice the glint off the back of the cases, if I'm shooting a semi-auto, if the double action trigger pull on the GP100 wasn't so damned long, I definitely put a big hole in my house. There was no one else home, so I least I wouldn't have hurt anyone... but damn I feel like a jackass. Luck saved me when my brain took a vacation.

I need to impress on myself - no un-structured dry firing. Ever.

JodyH
03-09-2012, 07:57 PM
You should always announce outloud to yourself "I am done dry firing" then load up and leave the room for a while.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

ford.304
03-09-2012, 08:07 PM
I think the "and leave the room for a while" is the most important part. I went through my whole ritual announcing that I was finished, but going back to working on what I was doing before completely erased that in my immediate memory. There was a huge "holy crap, I *did* go walk to the other end of the house, say I'm loaded, and load up" reaction -- because in my focus on what I was trying to learn, I had completely forgotten that I had done that entire sequence.

So, new rule - absolutely nothing vaguely gun related immediately after finishing dry fire and loading up. Not even watching how-to videos.

JodyH
03-09-2012, 09:14 PM
Another good idea is to put your target up immediately before dry fire practice, then taking it down prior to loading up.
That's why I use a dry fire target and not just a light switch or other permanent fixture when I practice.

UNK
03-09-2012, 09:32 PM
The first journeyman I worked under told me this story.

There was a Dad and Son who walked around the block every night after dinner.
Every evening they passed this one house and the dog would come storming out to the fence barking and growling.
The little boy would talk to the dog and calm him, then he would reach through the fence and pet him.
The father told the boy "Son don't pet that dog he bites." The son would just smile and say "He likes me Dad".
This happened every night for a long time till one evening the boy reached through the fence and the dog bit him.
The Father said, "I told you, that dog bites"

The story has a lot more meaning once you have been bit.

Joseph B.
03-10-2012, 03:47 AM
Never had an ND until this last year, I was about to work on a buddies Mossberg 500 that was having what he called “feeding problems”. So he clears it in his bedroom, brings it out to the living room, I clear it. Nothing in the gun, no rounds in the magazine tube after inspecting. I start to do a functions check on the gun, conducted one dry fire, racked the pump and went to dry fire it again, “BANG” blew a hole right through my buddies TV cabinet. I have been shot at and had less fear/adrenaline dump; it scared the hell out of me, totally unexpected. This shotgun had been checked by my buddy, by me, dry fired once and still by some act of god had a round in it.

Long story short, upon disassembly and parts check, the magazine spring was decompressed and was not pushing all the rounds forward. The weird part though is that I remember checking the magazine tube to see the follower before starting the function check, it looked like a orange colored follower, what it actually was, was a rusty round.

Nobody got hurt (besides my pride) thank god, and was able to replace the follower and magazine spring, which corrected the feeding issue. But damn that was a hard pill to swallow, not only having a ND but blowing the hole in the solid oak TV cabinet. You can never be too careful when clearing, inspecting, etc. Check, double check and then check again and hopefully it won’t happen to you. I know I thought it would never happen to me, it has defiantly made me take my time a little more on unloading and clearing weapons…

11B10
03-24-2020, 02:31 PM
The second thing I did (after checking on my wife in an adjacent room, making sure the round stopped in the wall) - was getting on my knees and saying thank you God!!! How... COULD...this.....happen.....here? I'm making many typos cause my hands are still shaking. I, too, have been anal about rituals regarding dryfire. I observed all of them....except one, which should sound familiar to many here.

Sequence of events.....after finishing, I retrieved the live ammo and reloaded, my brain was distracted because my backstop was shifting. It's the only thing I can think of that caused me to forget to check the gun. I THOUGHT I had the shift fixed and decided to try "just one more." Of course, I also THOUGHT the gun was unloaded. I was not doing something new. I had practiced drawing from AIWB/kneeling before. I had sufficient backstop, the angle was ok. I'm really trying to dissect this in an effort to settle down please bear with me. Got on one knee, "shook out" my arms, and slomo began. Grip and draw were perfect, eyes on the target...bringing gun up to eye to target line....uh-oh, backstop is falling...while reaching for it with support hand, BOTH hands contract....one catches the all important frickin backstop...but the other hand/finger catches the trigger. Saw the smoke and muzzle flash, report sounded far away. A hole is visible about 12" below the crucifix hanging on the far wall. Rushed into the room where my wife is and things deteriorate rapidly.

Of all the things I've learned here, how could this happen?? Never even been close to this.,

My wife insisted (while trembling and crying)I lock gun up....which I do. Before anyone offers anything (and please, I need to hear from you folks, big time), keep in mind my gun ownership has always been "out of sight, out of mind.".

Can this be fixed?

HopetonBrown
03-24-2020, 06:33 PM
Of all the things I've learned here, how could this happen?? Never even been close to this.,


Sounds like a sympathetic squeeze.

Glad nobody was hurt.

HCM
03-24-2020, 06:55 PM
The second thing I did (after checking on my wife in an adjacent room, making sure the round stopped in the wall) - was getting on my knees and saying thank you God!!! How... COULD...this.....happen.....here? I'm making many typos cause my hands are still shaking. I, too, have been anal about rituals regarding dryfire. I observed all of them....except one, which should sound familiar to many here.

Sequence of events.....after finishing, I retrieved the live ammo and reloaded, my brain was distracted because my backstop was shifting. It's the only thing I can think of that caused me to forget to check the gun. I THOUGHT I had the shift fixed and decided to try "just one more." Of course, I also THOUGHT the gun was unloaded. I was not doing something new. I had practiced drawing from AIWB/kneeling before. I had sufficient backstop, the angle was ok. I'm really trying to dissect this in an effort to settle down please bear with me. Got on one knee, "shook out" my arms, and slomo began. Grip and draw were perfect, eyes on the target...bringing gun up to eye to target line....uh-oh, backstop is falling...while reaching for it with support hand, BOTH hands contract....one catches the all important frickin backstop...but the other hand/finger catches the trigger. Saw the smoke and muzzle flash, report sounded far away. A hole is visible about 12" below the crucifix hanging on the far wall. Rushed into the room where my wife is and things deteriorate rapidly.

Of all the things I've learned here, how could this happen?? Never even been close to this.,

My wife insisted (while trembling and crying)I lock gun up....which I do. Before anyone offers anything (and please, I need to hear from you folks, big time), keep in mind my gun ownership has always been "out of sight, out of mind.".

Can this be fixed?

Sounds sympathetic contraction. One hand squeezes suddenly (usually unexpectedly) and the other does so unconsciously.

Unless trigger finger discipline is hard wired in (and sometimes even when it is hardwired in) the principle of affordance means your finger will likely wind up on the trigger.

This is also why people are directed not to try and catch a dropped gun or to hold onto a gun if you trip or fall.


https://www.policeone.com/archive/articles/involuntary-firearms-discharge-does-the-finger-obey-the-brain-h5z2h6XBiLr9Ie5j/

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/13639510610684683/full/html


An “affordance” refers to the possibility of an action on an object; Guns are designed to be shot. Therefore the optimal grip on a gun is designed for your finger to fall naturally on the trigger when you grip the gun. This is why trigger finger discipline requires conscious effort or training to a level of unconscious competence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things

Lucky > Good.

TheNewbie
03-24-2020, 07:50 PM
The second thing I did (after checking on my wife in an adjacent room, making sure the round stopped in the wall) - was getting on my knees and saying thank you God!!! How... COULD...this.....happen.....here? I'm making many typos cause my hands are still shaking. I, too, have been anal about rituals regarding dryfire. I observed all of them....except one, which should sound familiar to many here.

Sequence of events.....after finishing, I retrieved the live ammo and reloaded, my brain was distracted because my backstop was shifting. It's the only thing I can think of that caused me to forget to check the gun. I THOUGHT I had the shift fixed and decided to try "just one more." Of course, I also THOUGHT the gun was unloaded. I was not doing something new. I had practiced drawing from AIWB/kneeling before. I had sufficient backstop, the angle was ok. I'm really trying to dissect this in an effort to settle down please bear with me. Got on one knee, "shook out" my arms, and slomo began. Grip and draw were perfect, eyes on the target...bringing gun up to eye to target line....uh-oh, backstop is falling...while reaching for it with support hand, BOTH hands contract....one catches the all important frickin backstop...but the other hand/finger catches the trigger. Saw the smoke and muzzle flash, report sounded far away. A hole is visible about 12" below the crucifix hanging on the far wall. Rushed into the room where my wife is and things deteriorate rapidly.

Of all the things I've learned here, how could this happen?? Never even been close to this.,

My wife insisted (while trembling and crying)I lock gun up....which I do. Before anyone offers anything (and please, I need to hear from you folks, big time), keep in mind my gun ownership has always been "out of sight, out of mind.".

Can this be fixed?

I think we’ve all got lucky at some point and only avoided something like this because of that luck. It can happen to anybody and it can be fixed.

I would always go into a different room to reload and be done dry firing no matter what.


What kind of gun were you using?

HCM
03-24-2020, 08:27 PM
The second thing I did (after checking on my wife in an adjacent room, making sure the round stopped in the wall) - was getting on my knees and saying thank you God!!! How... COULD...this.....happen.....here? I'm making many typos cause my hands are still shaking. I, too, have been anal about rituals regarding dryfire. I observed all of them....except one, which should sound familiar to many here.

Sequence of events.....after finishing, I retrieved the live ammo and reloaded, my brain was distracted because my backstop was shifting. It's the only thing I can think of that caused me to forget to check the gun. I THOUGHT I had the shift fixed and decided to try "just one more." Of course, I also THOUGHT the gun was unloaded. I was not doing something new. I had practiced drawing from AIWB/kneeling before. I had sufficient backstop, the angle was ok. I'm really trying to dissect this in an effort to settle down please bear with me. Got on one knee, "shook out" my arms, and slomo began. Grip and draw were perfect, eyes on the target...bringing gun up to eye to target line....uh-oh, backstop is falling...while reaching for it with support hand, BOTH hands contract....one catches the all important frickin backstop...but the other hand/finger catches the trigger. Saw the smoke and muzzle flash, report sounded far away. A hole is visible about 12" below the crucifix hanging on the far wall. Rushed into the room where my wife is and things deteriorate rapidly.

Of all the things I've learned here, how could this happen?? Never even been close to this.,

My wife insisted (while trembling and crying)I lock gun up....which I do. Before anyone offers anything (and please, I need to hear from you folks, big time), keep in mind my gun ownership has always been "out of sight, out of mind.".

Can this be fixed?


I think we’ve all got lucky at some point and only avoided something like this because of that luck. It can happen to anybody and it can be fixed.

I would always go into a different room to reload and be done dry firing no matter what.


What kind of gun were you using?

If I understand correctly, he had reloaded the gun, then forgot the gun was now loaded and decided to do one more rep of "dryfire" (a common scenario) with the now re-loaded gun which would have resulted in a negligent discharge due to not adhering to dry fire safety practices. But fate intervened and instead, he had a negligent discharge due to sympathetic response when he suddenly tried to catch / stop his dryfire backstop from falling with his support hand.

It seems out of the frying pan but into the fire. The "just one more" Dry fire ND is unfortunately a very common, and human story.

Doing dry fire and loading / unloading in separate rooms and putting up and taking down dry fire targets when done / prior to reloading are main fixes.

A backstop that will stop bullets if you mess up is another. Basements are good but uncommon in my area. I recommend my folks at work use their body armor as a safe backstop. Shooting your body armor accidentally is a "less bad" dear Chief memo that "how my bullet went through the wall and hit.... the neighbors house, my family member, etc."

Even with the body armor we recommend choosing exterior rather than interior walls for back stops. They are more heavily built and it reduces the odds of hitting a loved one in the house if something goes wrong.

Cookie Monster
03-24-2020, 09:30 PM
Glad things ended ok. It happens to all of us or will. I have a separate gun dedicated to dry practice.

Clusterfrack
03-24-2020, 09:47 PM
Dude, you seriously fucked up, and could have killed someone you love, or a random stranger. But you know this, so that’s good. Invest in training, planning, and equipment to make absolutely sure this never happens again. I don’t agree that an ND inside our house is something we can expect to happen eventually, but if we have layered safety procedures we can minimize risk.

A separate dryfire gun is a good idea. A Bluegun can be a good tool as well.

Yung
03-24-2020, 11:49 PM
I use the BarrelBlok for dry practice at home, as the act of installing it requires clearing the gun, and the act of uninstalling it is something I've internalized as 'loading' it, since I have a dedicated practice/training gun identical to my carry gun that is always kept empty outside of practice. It is an excellent visual reminder that the pistol has been rendered inert for the duration it is being used.

For myself, the act of loading the gun must always be accompanied by verbalization, as I picked up from one of Mr. Werner's books.


This gun is loaded. Dry practice is over.

It helps me a lot to reinforce the idea that dry practice is a specific activity with a definite start and finish, just like with live practice, or a training class. Those also have their own ending procedures, along with their own negative consequences for continuing to draw a handgun and press the trigger. Failing to exercise this restraint in the past has made the difference between me staying hungry for the next session, versus disregarding whatever was just accomplished in the previous session due to feeling burned out.

HCountyGuy
03-25-2020, 06:40 AM
Glad nobody was hurt.

I’ve made a point to tell myself after loading the gun back up following dry fire, “the gun is LOADED and practice is DONE.” I’ve felt the urge to do one more rep after loading up, so I know it’s important to do something that helps remind yourself that the variables have changed.

11B10
03-25-2020, 08:12 AM
I'm grateful for all your shared thoughts and words - especially Clusterfrack's opening line. After much thought, I know where my dryfire situational awareness broke down. I had been practicing shooting from a kneeling position and my creaky knees were toast. The ad/nd occurred when I was in transition from kneeling to a standing position, something that's difficult without any firearms. However, any and all points have been rendered moot as I've made the decision to sell my firearms. Please hear me out as I know everyone will have an opinion. Some pertinent facts: First, and by far the most heavily weighted fact - my wife has never understood the original reason I bought them. She is of the mindset that we'll never need them. Indeed, her biggest fear has always been somehow, some way, harm could come to our granddaughter - a thought that's set in stone in her mind. She has been "more afraid since the guns arrived than before." No amount of calm, earnest, educational explaining has ever worked. Then, there's the totally anti-gun mindset of my son and his wife (parents of the aforementioned granddaughter). This was beaten to death in a prior thread, started nearly 4 years ago called "telling the family we are armed." Not gonna get back into that now. I will be 72 in a couple months and the no-win decision became: deciding between keeping my guns with what I know to be the only logical lifestyle - somewhere else...or...staying here with a spouse who feels she'll be safer now (pretty frickin ironic, isn't it?) for the rest of my days. As I told her - this is a decision I pray we never regret. I ask for you to put yourself in my life before any posting.

Clusterfrack
03-25-2020, 10:36 AM
Her reaction is understandable. Family comes first.

You may be able to earn back her trust, but it will take time. Meanwhile, I recommend doing what she asks. This isn't worth breaking up your marriage over, unless you were already having problems before you shot the wall.

OC spray can be a good defensive tool.

After a few weeks, maybe discuss taking a handgun class, maybe together?

11B10
03-25-2020, 11:37 AM
Her reaction is understandable. Family comes first.

You may be able to earn back her trust, but it will take time. Meanwhile, I recommend doing what she asks. This isn't worth breaking up your marriage over, unless you were already having problems before you shot the wall.

OC spray can be a good defensive tool.

After a few weeks, maybe discuss taking a handgun class, maybe together?


Cluster, I thank you for taking the time to help. Your trust earning suggestion is logical, but as you have already figured out, there's been problems for more years than I suspect you've been alive. You're also correct that this "isn't worth breaking up my marriage." I used to think the following was a copout - not anymore. Someday, you'll remember these words....You literally have to be in my shoes to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. When you reach a certain age, you don't want to go through yet another massive overhaul of your life....had too many already. Even as recently as ten years ago? I would have been long gone.

Your sincere recommendations about OC spray and classes are things that have always been part of my life. Been carrying spray, several different firearms, Benchmade knives, along with the requisite brighter-is-better flashlights, and studying for a long time. The last couple years, I've been deep into studying human behavior, situational awareness, etc. through many books and lurking here on PF. The worst part? What was a passing fancy with firearms became true love.

Here's where the old guy gives advice. Learn from my mistakes. Never compromise yourself. Be....you at all times.

Robinson
03-25-2020, 01:00 PM
11B10 - I'm glad no one was hurt as a result of your accident. It is a serious matter for sure.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you stay around -- you can still make valuable contributions to the forum. You seem like a good guy and you are doing what you think is right in your heart based on the entirety of your situation. Guns are tools, they are not family.

Those of us who have spouses/partners who support our choices as firearms owners should feel thankful. I believe it is immoral to deny any free man (or woman) the use of personal weaponry, but many do not see it that way.

RJ
03-25-2020, 02:48 PM
11B10 Thanks for your courage and choice to post in this thread after what happened.

Just a couple things from the heart. You are ok. Your family is ok. That, really is the main thing. No one here will judge you on whatever decision you make for the good of your family. We are all human, and none of us have any idea what your personal situation is like.

I hope you stay around and participate in the forum. I think you add a lot of wisdom and perspective. We'd miss it.

Rich

11B10
03-25-2020, 07:34 PM
11B10 Thanks for your courage and choice to post in this thread after what happened.

Just a couple things from the heart. You are ok. Your family is ok. That, really is the main thing. No one here will judge you on whatever decision you make for the good of your family. We are all human, and none of us have any idea what your personal situation is like.

I hope you stay around and participate in the forum. I think you add a lot of wisdom and perspective. We'd miss it.

Rich


Rich, everyone here at PF, you are the only ones who can understand WHAT happened, WHY it happened, and most importantly, what it means, what it must feel like, to voluntarily relinquish the most important tools you own. Only you folks can appreciate what I must feel for my wife - in order to do that. I know she doesn't. To be fair, she can't. It is my opinion that, for most gun owners, the line between just owning a firearm and getting a rush each time you see it, gradually becomes blurred, then disappears altogether. I know it did for me. My "collection" never had more than 3 guns in it. One of the guns I'm giving up now was one that I saved for - for over a year! From the minute I shot a buddy's M&P340, I had to have one, finally taking one home, one day after Christmas. That same buddy is a self-proclaimed "wheelie freak." When he checked out my 340, he just looked at me and said: "Dude, if you don't buy this, I'm gonna!" He was the first call I made about the 340. As they say, timing is everything (or is it location?). Anyway, his treasurer, Mrs. Wheelie Freak, told him he's overextended, whatever that means. I'm probably gonna take it to the FFL where I bought it and have them sell it on consignment.

Hey, I'm a hopeless believer and I believe everything happens for a reason. What that reason is here...currently escapes me. I'm trying to get not too far down about this, but it's a real struggle, fellas. Just putting them back in their cases hurt. As I sit here, I feel naked. Too much information?

RJ, re: your saying I add a lot of wisdom and perspective here - I know I'm old and have always been a b.s. artist. Thanks!

fixer
03-26-2020, 06:22 AM
I recommend a dedicated training gun that only sees ammo on the range.

Here is my set up to avoid this

dedicated training gun/beater gun--that only sees ammo on the range.
use range-dedicated mags for dummy rounds
after any interruption of practice, I "reset" by press checking the gun.
I also sub-consciously engage the safety if I'm coming off target. This is a leftover training win from using and de-cocking B92s and PX4 for so long. This also clues me in sub consciously that my trigger finger needs to be in register.
I let my wife know I'm practicing and she implores me to ensure I have dummy rounds
And periodically she will call out to remind me of this. Sometimes if she has to be in the area behind me she will demand I press check and show her the dummy rounds.
When training I sometimes stop myself periodically, mid draw, to observe the dummy round in chamber with press check. I would consciously ask myself, "you sure there is dummy rounds in there?"
After I'm done, I put the training gun away, empty.
mags are stored in a range bag. sometimes I store the dummy rounds loose to further enhance to my mind that I'm dry practicing.

In all of this...I consciously remind myself and imagine the flashing blue lights that are sure to come if I screw up.


The dedicated training gun can go a very long way to correcting this. I know times are tough for everyone, so maybe try to find a used version of what you are carrying. Even if it isn't ideal but close enough. Like a beat up g17 for g19 carry. For a 1911 get a used RIA.

My wife is heavily invested in me being a good pistol shooter. She is also heavily invested in not having holes in her walls, or worse.

deflave
03-26-2020, 07:56 AM
When I was 15 or 16 I had a negligent discharge in my parent's basement. I was going to reload some ammo for my dad's .22 Hornet. To this day I'm not real sure where I fucked up, but I did. Thankfully the muzzle was in a safe direction. I had the crosshairs on a phone mounted wall and thought I'd give that Ruger a slow squeeze before setting up the press. BANG!

I definitely hit the phone...

I stood there frozen. I didn't move or make a sound. I heard the basement door slowly open and my dad's voice. "Travis?" Was all he said. I had never heard concern like that in anyone's voice before. I replied "I'm ok dad. I just fucked up." He came downstairs slowly and his relief somehow squelched his legendary temper. He told me to step away from the reloading bench for a day or two but quickly reassured me that I fucked up, and not to do so again.

To this day I remember the tone in his voice when he called my name. It bolstered my previously flawless record of safe gun handling and it has never happened again (thank God.) I'm eternally grateful for my parent's patience and understanding because they could have just as easily ruined me from firearms for the rest of my life.

Ironically enough, my dad was shot in the thumb with a 22LR during an accident as a child. One of his friends was dry firing a pistol toward the ceiling as my dad pointed something out to another friend. You would think this would have made my dad hyper sensitive to the issue but it actually had the opposite effect. He spoke to the boy that shot him well into adulthood and my dad's parents remained cordial with the shooter's parents.

I have raised my kids around firearms and I have taught my wife to hunt and shoot. One of my rules for carrying afield with rifles is "cold chambers." On one particular morning my wife and I found a decent mulie. I told her to make it hot and let him have it. She got as far as making it hot, but not the letting him have it. A quick up and over a small knoll and one more opportunity... But nope. The gods did not smile upon us this day. "Oh well" says I, and back to the truck we go.

As I tumble down the two-track and suggest another area I'm met with a rather overwhelming BOOM!.

My brain didn't process things immediately but then my nose filled with that beautiful smokeless gunpowder smell that we all know and love. I looked at my wife and asked "are you ok?" She said nothing. I yelled "ARE YOU OK? ARE YOU SHOT?" She said quietly "No."

I quickly pulled over and looked under my rig for damage (we were in the middle of nowhere and no cell coverage) as I did so I could hear a faint leak coming from the front passenger side. I jumped back into the truck and pulled it forward about 200yds onto level ground. My wife stood there. Not saying a word. I changed the tire.

As I threw the tire, jack and iron back into the truck and slid her rifle into the back seat I simply asked "You understand the whole cold chamber rule now?" She said nothing. She looked like somebody threw a hand grenade at her and missed. On the drive back to town I tried to inject some humor into the situation so I said "Please excuse the draft on your side, my truck has a hole in the floorboard." She burst into tears. Which really bothered me because I had thought what I said was pretty funny.

With that, we called it a day because she was so visibly shaken.

However, I did make her get back after it the next morning. The idea being that you should get back on your dirt bike after the first time you wreck.

Endeavor to persevere, as it were:

https://i.imgur.com/Ufkx0tf.jpg

I am career law enforcement. Holding the title of Firearms Instructor for 8 years. I was active duty Marine Corps for four years and held a secondary MOS as a range coach. I've been around a lot of shooters, some that shouldn't be shooting but that's not my decision so I work with what I have.

My personal policy for my USPSA gun is that it is just that. It's my USPSA gun. The only time it ever goes hot, is on the firing line. Does this guarantee against anything? Not at all. But it's one extra measure I like to take toward safety when it comes to dry fire practice. I have plenty of other stuff for work and home defense.

Why do I share all this? Because I think everyone deserves a path to redemption and I hate to see anyone give up their firearms for any reason.

Besides, everyone should get divorced at least once or twice.


Best to you (regardless of what you decide),
Travis

RJ
03-26-2020, 08:03 AM
This is a great thread because it reminds us that we have to be careful, lest there be a big unexpected noise. I don't think you can focus on this too much.

I bought a few 9mm inert snap cap dummys thinking I'd use them for Dry Practice. What I found was that the physical process of loading a "round", and then the vision of a "thing" at the top of my magazine when I chambered them, literally made my mouth run dry. I guess I'd become so ingrained at the concept of chamber checking and looking through the magwell for an empty hole. I just could not take it. So I ended up putting the inert rounds back in their packages and in my spares box.

All my Dry Practice is in an area devoid of ammo, and that will never have ammo. I have only one gun that I dedicate to Dry Practice (USPSA gun). I chamber check it coming out of the safe. I chamber check it every single time it returns to my hands, even though I just put it down 2 seconds ago. I chamber check it when I put it back in the safe.

I have a blue G19.5 for draws and manipulations. I still follow all four rules with it, even though intellectually I "know" it is a hunk of plastic.

11B10
03-26-2020, 08:15 AM
This is a great thread because it reminds us that we have to be careful, lest there be a big unexpected noise. I don't think you can focus on this too much.

I bought a few 9mm inert snap cap dummys thinking I'd use them for Dry Practice. What I found was that the physical process of loading a "round", and then the vision of a "thing" at the top of my magazine when I chambered them, literally made my mouth run dry. I guess I'd become so ingrained at the concept of chamber checking and looking through the magwell for an empty hole. I just could not take it. So I ended up putting the inert rounds back in their packages and in my spares box.

All my Dry Practice is in an area devoid of ammo, and that will never have ammo. I have only one gun that I dedicate to Dry Practice (USPSA gun). I chamber check it coming out of the safe. I chamber check it every single time it returns to my hands, even though I just put it down 2 seconds ago. I chamber check it when I put it back in the safe.

I have a blue G19.5 for draws and manipulations. I still follow all four rules with it, even though intellectually I "know" it is a hunk of plastic.







RJ, I have a BarrelBlok that is now gathering dust. How I wish I had been using it a couple days ago. If you've never tried it, I recommend it and feel pretty sure you'd like it.

Talk about force of habit! I posted too soon. RJ, if you're interested, pm me where I could send it.

RJ
03-26-2020, 08:23 AM
RJ, I have a BarrelBlok that is now gathering dust. How I wish I had been using it a couple days ago. If you've never tried it, I recommend it and feel pretty sure you'd like it.

Talk about force of habit! I posted too soon. RJ, if you're interested, pm me where I could send it.

No worries; I appreciate it but I am good. Might make a good item for a Karma thread tho.

11B10
03-27-2020, 08:34 AM
Sounds sympathetic contraction. One hand squeezes suddenly (usually unexpectedly) and the other does so unconsciously.

Unless trigger finger discipline is hard wired in (and sometimes even when it is hardwired in) the principle of affordance means your finger will likely wind up on the trigger.

This is also why people are directed not to try and catch a dropped gun or to hold onto a gun if you trip or fall.


https://www.policeone.com/archive/articles/involuntary-firearms-discharge-does-the-finger-obey-the-brain-h5z2h6XBiLr9Ie5j/

https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/13639510610684683/full/html





An “affordance” refers to the possibility of an action on an object; Guns are designed to be shot. Therefore the optimal grip on a gun is designed for your finger to fall naturally on the trigger when you grip the gun. This is why trigger finger discipline requires conscious effort or training to a level of unconscious competence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Design_of_Everyday_Things

Lucky > Good.



HCM, lucky is, indeed >>>>>> good! Thank you for the links you provided. I finally took the time to read them. Although the startle/stimulation in my experience was different from the ones examined, the result was the same. IOW, those officers knew they had live ammo in their firearms, I should have, but did not. Their actions were not out of place as they were performing their sworn duty. I was reaching for a poorly designed, falling backstop. The trajectory I originally posted was not accurate. First, it was a 135 grain .38 SPL+P Speer Short Barrel, fired from my M&P340. It first went through the plaster wall approximately 10' away. The round passed through that wall's other side (same plaster), opening up a much larger hole, finishing by putting a divot in another plaster wall approximately 20' away and falling to the floor. It was within 5', on a diagonal line - albeit 8'+ high, IOW, "high right" of the temporary workstation where my wife has been working during these COVID days. My 2 gun "collection" is now at a local FFL. I'm constantly fighting off the urge to bring back at least the 340. I'm finding it hard to read anything that isn't about firearms.

RJ
03-27-2020, 08:43 AM
11B10

I am not suggesting you do this, it’s just an idea.

Have you discussed pulling your guns from consignment, and putting them in a Safety Deposit Box in your wife’s name only?

critter
03-27-2020, 09:21 AM
It was a cold, dark day in the month of Dumbassery back in 1994. My 'dry fire room' is in the basement, no windows, underground on three of the four sides, three sides are backed by concrete block walls, with the 'open' side some 60' from the exterior brick wall. The wall I toward which I practice is a support wall. Behind that is a cavity under the front porch followed by a second concrete block wall followed by dirt.

I had recently acquired my Sig P229 .40. That was far from the first semi-auto pistol I had owned or handled, and by that time I had tens of thousands of safe dry fires under my belt. I cleared the weapon, and just about at that precise moment I hear John Wayne's voice, "Gow ah-head and tryyy it..." or something very similar. So I did...

Of course the deafening boom, and the ear-ie ringing silence along with the typical "WTF??" brain freeze followed while watching little whirly wisps of glass dust and smoke rise from the TV. I looked down and could plainly see the ejected round from the chamber beside the loaded magazine there on the table. Double WTF??? As you probably have already guessed, I had 'cleared' the chamber prior to dropping the mag. I don't actually remember doing that, but it's the only explanation which fits the evidence.

The worst part of this is I shot low left and missed where Miniature John Wayne previously stood by a full two to three inches. No live pistol ammo has entered this room since that day. My current pistol safety check involves clearing the pistol at the table outside the room door, and locking the slide back prior to entering.

No sympathetic response, no "accident" attributable to anything other than sheer brain-lapse stupidity.

Clusterfrack
03-27-2020, 09:37 AM
A buddy was shooting his Sig MPX at a local outlaw USPSA style match. After he shot the last stage, the RO said "If finished, unload. If clear hammer down. Flag" He dropped the mag, racked the bolt, and on hammer down, BANG. Both he and RO had a WTF look on their faces. Apparently, the round in the chamber didn't eject, and re-chambered. Possibly my buddy didn't rack the action fully. No one was hurt, because the gun was aimed safely downrange, but it was a match DQ and my friend was quite upset with himself for having done something unsafe.

That incident underscores how assumptions, shortcuts, and habits can cause accidents.

I have come to approach clearing a gun with an attitude of suspicion. That's how I holster as well.

JohnO
03-27-2020, 09:42 AM
I recall Mas Ayoob telling the class in LFI-1 the following story. (My best recollection)

A LEO was dry firing and had decided he was done. He loaded his service weapon and the phone rang. He took the call and spoke on the phone for a while. After finishing on the phone all he remembered was that he was dry firing before the call. Having totally forgotten he loaded he decided to do one more dry fire. There was a fatal consequence for his wife in an adjacent room.

Perhaps because of that story my in home dry fire targets are on a basement concrete foundation wall. All guns are always considered loaded therefore the safety rules always apply. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction. Know your target and what is beyond it. Know the ballistic capability of your weapon system.

Allow me to talk about something that didn't go bad but could have. A few years ago my son living cross country called me to ask my opinion about his roommate's AR. I don't remember the actual problem. My son switched to FaceTime video because he wanted me to see what was happening. Before I could say anything or stop him he chambered a live round in the AR. This was while in the living room of house multiple guys were sharing. There were people present in the room I could see in the background including girlfriends.

I said "STOP what you are doing now!" The first thing I had him do was unload and verify the AR was clear. Then I told him to look at the primer of the round he had just chambered. I said "see that dimple on the primer? NOT A GOOD IDEA!" It was a bit of an Ah Ha moment for him. He had no idea that the floating firing pin in an AR will cause a inertia dimple on a chambered round when the bolt slams home. I knew he and his buddies were buying reloads. No guarantee that round has the correct hard primer. Plus he was inside in a room with other people with a rifle he has told me has a problem. I told him what he did was way too risky and dangerous. "This is exactly what dummy rounds are for!" I've never heard of an AD from dripping the bolt on an AR but what he was doing was not safe.

RJ
03-27-2020, 09:42 AM
I remembered this morning that I had an ND in 2016, during Tac Con in Memphis, documented here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19800-ND-at-Hot-Range-Training-Scar

"I attended TacCon '16 in Memphis recently. The range, during the conference, is "hot", meaning you are expected to be at the line chambered and cocked. This was the first time for me in such an environment.

On Friday, I took Paul Sharp's Recoil Control session (it was excellent, by the way). After my first mag, I needed to reload. Under the direction of my shooting partner, "reload", I heard the statement, but, my brain heard "unload and show clear."

So, I reloaded with a fresh 15 round mag. Then, like dozens of times before, as I had been training as a USPSA-style shooter, I reflexively raised the pistol up and pulled the trigger, as I normally do prior to holstering an empty gun.

Problem was, it was not empty. It went 'bang'."

blues
03-27-2020, 10:04 AM
I've been around a couple of knuckleheaded LEO NDs in my years. It's inexcusable especially when there are reminders everywhere but it also means that try as we may nobody is perfect.

11B10 I understand your dismay but don't be overly hard on yourself. You've owned the mistake. Now it's time to repair what you can with your wife and move on. Take whatever time is required until both of you can reach a comfort level regarding firearms in the home and on your person. If it can't be rectified, then assess the situation at that point and take the course of action you mutually agree to.

11B10
03-27-2020, 11:45 AM
11B10

I am not suggesting you do this, it’s just an idea.

Have you discussed pulling your guns from consignment, and putting them in a Safety Deposit Box in your wife’s name only?


RJ, it must be the mental fog I've been in the last two days - why your idea didn't occur to me. I must admit I've been preoccupied with the virus, but...there's no excuse for the juvenile behavior, ie: pouting, poor poor me crap. Thanks...later today, after she is done working (from home), I'll try to get my act together and propose your idea. I honestly don't think she understands how much this means to me.

HCM
03-27-2020, 11:56 AM
HCM, lucky is, indeed >>>>>> good! Thank you for the links you provided. I finally took the time to read them. Although the startle/stimulation in my experience was different from the ones examined, the result was the same. IOW, those officers knew they had live ammo in their firearms, I should have, but did not. Their actions were not out of place as they were performing their sworn duty. I was reaching for a poorly designed, falling backstop. The trajectory I originally posted was not accurate. First, it was a 135 grain .38 SPL+P Speer Short Barrel, fired from my M&P340. It first went through the plaster wall approximately 10' away. The round passed through that wall's other side (same plaster), opening up a much larger hole, finishing by putting a divot in another plaster wall approximately 20' away and falling to the floor. It was within 5', on a diagonal line - albeit 8'+ high, IOW, "high right" of the temporary workstation where my wife has been working during these COVID days. My 2 gun "collection" is now at a local FFL. I'm constantly fighting off the urge to bring back at least the 340. I'm finding it hard to read anything that isn't about firearms.

The fact that this occurred with a DAO revolver is indicative that this was a sympathetic or startle response. Grip response in these instances is usually 50-60 lbs or more.

Doc_Glock
03-27-2020, 12:02 PM
@11B10 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=11940) You have owned the mistake. Lose the guns and move on. It can happen to anyone, but in my experience, I see more folks in the 75 on age group with self inflicted gunshot wounds or power tool injuries to the hands than younger ages.

I don't want to sound ageist, but I advise my patients over age 75-80 to get rid of table saws and joiners in their home shops that they have been using safely for 50+ years as I have seen many of those formerly agile fellows fall into the saw and cut their hand off, or have a little slip that leads to devastating injury.

As far as the gun thing goes, I have been lucky on the ND front. I came close once with a rifle unfamiliar to me. Really close. I also found a chambered round in a .22 rifle I had already stowed in the car after a shooting session, that I checked "just once more". I also remember being shocked when I checked a G42 I was certain was unloaded only to find a round come out of the chamber.

It has been a while since I scared myself and that is helped by keeping loaded guns totally separate from unloaded ones in the big safe that are used for dry fire. Anything that goes in that safe is extra checked and guns are not loaded in this area of the house. It also happens to be in the basement and the backstop to any dry fire is a cinderblock wall follower by dirt. I feel the advantage of an identical training pistol used for shooting and dry fire and a carry pistol that is simply kept hot at all times is immeasurable.

11B10
03-27-2020, 12:11 PM
I've been around a couple of knuckleheaded LEO NDs in my years. It's inexcusable especially when there are reminders everywhere but it also means that try as we may nobody is perfect.

11B10 I understand your dismay but don't be overly hard on yourself. You've owned the mistake. Now it's time to repair what you can with your wife and move on. Take whatever time is required until both of you can reach a comfort level regarding firearms in the home and on your person. If it can't be rectified, then assess the situation at that point and take the course of action you mutually agree to.

blues, hey, I didn't see your post until after I replied to RJ. As I said to him, there's no excuse for the childish behavior and attitude I've been putting out here. I have been preoccupied with the virus, no question, but the simple fact is this was something totally within my control - my responsibility. However, as my aging body kept breaking down, all but eliminating any serious weightlifting, I rediscovered firearms. It was simply good luck that I did, but with this subject, I found something I could and would, really get into. You know, as opposed to shuffle board, basket weaving, card games, etc. As I said to RJ, I honestly don't think she understands how much this means to me. Maybe his idea can put this in a holding pattern - at least until everyone settles down. Thanks for taking the time to read and reply - your words mean a lot to me.

11B10
03-27-2020, 12:18 PM
@11B10 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=11940) You have owned the mistake. Lose the guns and move on. It can happen to anyone, but in my experience, I see more folks in the 75 on age group with self inflicted gunshot wounds or power tool injuries to the hands than younger ages.

I don't want to sound ageist, but I advise my patients over age 75-80 to get rid of table saws and joiners in their home shops that they have been using safely for 50+ years as I have seen many of those formerly agile fellows fall into the saw and cut their hand off, or have a little slip that leads to devastating injury.

As far as the gun thing goes, I have been lucky on the ND front. I came close once with a rifle unfamiliar to me. Really close. I also found a chambered round in a .22 rifle I had already stowed in the car after a shooting session, that I checked "just once more". I also remember being shocked when I checked a G42 I was certain was unloaded only to find a round come out of the chamber.

It has been a while since I scared myself and that is helped by keeping loaded guns totally separate from unloaded ones in the big safe that are used for dry fire. Anything that goes in that safe is extra checked and guns are not loaded in this area of the house. It also happens to be in the basement and the backstop to any dry fire is a cinderblock wall follower by dirt. I feel the advantage of an identical training pistol used for shooting and dry fire and a carry pistol that is simply kept hot at all times is immeasurable.


Doc, thanks for the good words. I do appreciate your experience....however... your advice to " lose the guns" may be OK for some, but for me....well, read my response to RJ and blues. Maybe I was wrong to make firearms "the thing" in my life, but hindsight is always 20-20, isn't it?

Be safe, everyone.

11B10
03-27-2020, 12:25 PM
The fact that this occurred with a DAO revolver is indicative that this was a sympathetic or startle response. Grip response in these instances is usually 50-60 lbs or more.


HCM, I couldn't agree more. When I was shooting the 340, I had, probably, the hardest grip I've ever had on a firearm. I had actually gotten to the point where .357's were manageable. Not for all day, but manageable. Further proof that I'm mental.

GearFondler
03-27-2020, 05:44 PM
My ND happened almost twenty years ago but I can still remember it vividly. I have long been a believer in, and practicer of, Dry Firing.... my wife on the other hand has always been opposed to it. Well on this particular day a I decided to educate her a little bit in the fine art of dry firing and also on the importance of firing a revolver double action in a defensive scenario versus single action. As soon as she realized that I was about to impart some of my wisdom upon her she became a trifle irritated and defensive... most probably because I had trapped her in the bathroom and insisted that she learn from the master. Does this sound like it was headed downhill fast?? It seems obvious to me now in retrospect.

So ignoring my wife's protests I went and retrieved her .38 S&W J-frame, a gift from her departed father. I carefully unloaded the weapon in the bedroom and proceeded into the bathroom with an empty gun. I verified for her that it was empty and I began The Lesson. And everything went just as it should have; she sat on the closed toilet lid and pretended to humor me while I pontificated on the finer points of handgun CQC. When I could actually see my words bouncing off of her ears I finished up and stepped back into the bedroom. And then it happened...

I suddenly remembered that I had forgotten to mention an extremely important point regarding my position on pistolero proficiency... a point so important that I can no longer remember what it was. I quickly grabbed the J frame from off the bed and stepped back into the adjoining bathroom... I was back so quickly that my wife was still sitting there massaging her temples and questioning her taste in men. As I explained my last nugget of wisdom I held out the .38, cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger....

BANG!!!!! ...the loudest gunshot I have ever heard in my life.

I doubt if there is anything more shocking and startling than having an empty gun discharge. My wife and I were both shaken to the core... me in shocked embarrassment and her in shocked anger, both of us in complete disbelief. After I recovered my senses I ascertained that everything was basically OK aside from my bruised ego and our ringing ears. I had managed to follow most if not all of the rules of gun safety and so when the gun fired it was pointed in a basically safe direction. The revolver was pointed at the opened utility room door and I knew that everyone in the house was behind the muzzle...the bullet passed through this hollow-core door and then the wall behind it and into the bookcase on the back of that wall. The bullet was slowed down by these barriers and as it passed between some books on the shelf it spent itself and squirted out onto the dining room floor were I found it resting under the table.

So what exactly happened here? I considered myself a safe and responsible gun owner who understood the rules of gun safety and always followed them. It took me a few minutes to realize how my accident had even happened since I KNEW that the gun was not loaded. The reality was that when I finished up with my initial seminar I went back into the bedroom and on autopilot reloaded the little J, laying it down on the bed. Then upon remembering that I had one more vitally important point to make and I grabbed the revolver and stepped back into the bathroom, my mental distraction over needing to make my final point allowing me to completely forget that I had just reloaded the weapon!! I confidently raised the gun, cocked the hammer and fired my empty gun into the door. Fuck me.

Fortunately for me this had a relatively happy ending as no one was injured and I learned a valuable lesson about letting myself become distracted around firearms. Unfortunately for me this incident only served to reinforce my wife's distrust of dry-firing and caused me some home repairs to cover over my stupidity. It also created one of those events that I will probably never completely live down... but it sure as hell beats some of the alternatives.

And for those who are curious, yes, I still practice dry firing... when my wife goes out shopping. However, now I am far more careful about separating the gun from the ammunition and I have retired from acting as a "firearms instructor".

blues
03-27-2020, 05:48 PM
I keep my practice bulletproof with a Ring's Blue Gun...and occasionally an orange Blackhawk version. Sure, I give up the trigger press, but I get a lot of mileage out of them, and leave one sitting on the table in front of me to be picked up and practiced with multiple times daily.

I'm okay with the shortcomings of only practicing with them indoors.

JohnO
03-27-2020, 05:53 PM
I keep my practice bulletproof with a Ring's Blue Gun...and occasionally an orange Blackhawk version. Sure, I give up the trigger press, but I get a lot of mileage out of them, and leave one sitting on the table in front of me to be picked up and practiced with multiple times daily.

I'm okay with the shortcomings of only practicing with them indoors.

A good bit more expensive, there are the SIRT pistols as well. Another alternative is a dummy barrel. I have a yellow plastic replacement barrel (no chamber or tube) that neuters the pistol for dry fire.

Medusa
03-27-2020, 06:03 PM
I have a duplicate full-size LTT with a CoolFire barrel in it. It’s obvious at a glance that it’s in, and you can’t load ammo in it obviously. She can go back to live fire with a barrel and recoil spring swap, but she’s inert as she sits.

Bergeron
03-27-2020, 07:42 PM
I'm into Coolfire as well, and I like using the Ring's blue magazines to duplicate gun weight. I have the yellow replacement plastic barrels, and I like those as well, but man, that Coolfire plus weighted blue plastic mags gives me a combo of safety and fidelity that I love.

I will say that Gabe White's dry fire guidance is the most thoughtfully, purposefully safe dry fire technique, independent of technology, that I've ever encountered.

Medusa
03-27-2020, 09:38 PM
Tried to grab some of those weighted mags on amazon, but it went nowhere and seller didn’t respond. I have inert training rounds when needed. They visibly don’t have primers, and the bases are painted, and I’ll normally put one snap cap on top when I use them.

Bergeron
03-27-2020, 09:55 PM
Yeah, that magazine purchase was one of the weirder online buying experiences that I've had. The mags that I found were G33 .357 Sig mags, I bought them, and it was no-kidding months before they arrived, and I got them each seperately, with about 6 weeks between receving the first and the last.

My recollection is that Glock is highly opposed to sales of blue guns/mags to the non-professional community, and so the transactions that occur are "gray market".

I do like using snap caps as well!

GearFondler
03-28-2020, 01:40 PM
I use a Magpul mag stuffed with lead fishing weights to the correct weight of a loaded mag... Just take the mag apart and drop in the weights and reassemble with the spring and follower as usual. Buy some various sizes to tune the weight and use some of the larger ones, mashed with a vise or hammer, to fit at the top of the mag so they are jammed in place but not poking through. I'd include a picture but Tapatalk is not uploading pics for me right now.

GearFondler
03-28-2020, 01:41 PM
Okay... Now it's working. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200328/177a21ecc8641497b9d344a267aaee99.jpg

Gater
03-28-2020, 02:12 PM
Thanks to all for sharing your experiences--excellent reminders/teaching points.

We've talked about these elsewhere and not all are fans, but I use Laserlyte laser training cartridges in dry fire (there are other--and cheaper--brands, but they are the only ones I have personal experience with). In addition to serving as a snap cap, unlike snap caps, they do not have an extractor rim and stay in (and obstruct, preventing chambering a live round) the chamber until they are manually removed by pushing them out with a pencil eraser or similar. They won't save you from all of the potential mental errors, but do add another measure. After installing and before starting a dry fire string, I lock the slide open and press the "primer" end of the chambered trainer with a finger to make sure I see the laser flash. I use the weighted dummy mags, as well--I believe my newer one was molded with the follower pinned so that the slide does not lock open.

willie
03-28-2020, 09:45 PM
ND's occur at gun shows and gun shops. I have seen guys become angry because somebody else checked a weapon that they had brought in for repair or trade. Many years ago dry firing was not nearly as common as it is today. I think that this practice contributes to number of nd's. This past dove season I carried two shotguns. Always I clean guns after hunting, but this trip was an exception. One of these guns was still loaded despite my thinking that I had unloaded both.
I discovered this fact after waiting a few days to store them in the safe. I was horrified. I assign the cause to age.
I can think of no other reason.

Having taught many kids, I knew four who were killed in gun accidents. This number does not include the larger number killed by guns in homicides. All were young black makes killed by other young black males.