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goosehunter
12-02-2013, 09:09 PM
I'm classified Master in IDPA but only classified as a C shooter at a local club classifier match at the local indoor range.

What gives with this? Pretty much hanging my head right now. I'm not sure how I can be better at both sports.

jetfire
12-02-2013, 09:11 PM
I'm classified Master in IDPA but only classified as a C shooter at a local club classifier match at the local indoor range.

What gives with this? Pretty much hanging my head right now. I'm not sure how I can be better at both sports.

Science fact: USPSA is harder than IDPA. Also a fact: aside from drawing from concealment, anything you do to get better at USPSA will make you better at IDPA.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 09:24 PM
Science fact: USPSA is harder than IDPA. Also a fact: aside from drawing from concealment, anything you do to get better at USPSA will make you better at IDPA.

Please explain further. And how do I get better? I was pretty cocky walking into the match. I figured that without cover, I would've been a lot faster.

GJM
12-02-2013, 09:37 PM
Science fact: USPSA is harder than IDPA. Also a fact: aside from drawing from concealment, anything you do to get better at USPSA will make you better at IDPA.

Caleb, you are getting seriously trolled.

OP, wear your fishing vest next time to the USPSA classifier match, as you must have had a bad day -- I think IDPA master translates more like a low USPSA B, than a C.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 09:54 PM
I shoot ESP in idpa normally. I figured that trying Production in uspsa would be comparable.

Is "trolling" a new poster thing? Not sure that I understand.

ST911
12-02-2013, 10:07 PM
I've made it a point in 2013 to shoot as many matches as I can. I've made most of the available IDPA club matches, place high, and have a great time. Later I hit the USPSA matches. The differences in the dynamics between the two groups are pretty dramatic. The guys shooting IDPA weren't shooting USPSA, and vice versa. My scores and placement overall and by division weren't carrying over either. IDPA scoring was pretty straightforward and I understood that. USPSA was more elusive. Shooting faster or more accurately wasn't the answer, it was the calculus of both blended with the variables of what gun/caliber I was shooting, and what everyone else was doing at the time. I'd run a match and get all As in a good time, but a guy would burn it up with Cs and place much higher. I found some of the answer in threads here, along with the DOTW that considered the effect of different scoring methods.

Stage design also plays a role in the calculus of scoring. A stand-up, burn-it-down stage design gives some the edge, which seems to prevail in the USPSA matches I've shot. Others that had shooting from irregular positions, cover, reloads in same, gave me and others a hand.

Either way, I'm having fun, running the gun, and finding strengths and deficits in my performance. Still, it's irksome.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 10:08 PM
Caleb, you are getting seriously trolled.

OP, wear your fishing vest next time to the USPSA classifier match, as you must have had a bad day -- I think IDPA master translates more like a low USPSA B, than a C.

I wear a "cover garment", not some gamers vest. I'm not sure what your intentions are on this thread. I'm looking to get better at shooting in general. At 53, I'm not looking to be "cool" anymore.

YVK
12-02-2013, 10:14 PM
There is a ton of things that factor in why rankings can look so disparate, not enough time to cover it all. OrigamiAK was shooting IDPA classifier in mid-70s, if memory serves me right, while ranked B in USPSA.
In my experience of shooting with legit IDPA Ms, those dudes are advanced enough to have good insight what they need to do to jack up their USPSA ratings. Just shoot some more USPSA to figure it out.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 10:20 PM
I've made it a point in 2013 to shoot as many matches as I can. I've made most of the available IDPA club matches, place high, and have a great time. Later I hit the USPSA matches. The differences in the dynamics between the two groups are pretty dramatic. The guys shooting IDPA weren't shooting USPSA, and vice versa. My scores and placement overall and by division weren't carrying over either. IDPA scoring was pretty straightforward and I understood that. USPSA was more elusive. Shooting faster or more accurately wasn't the answer, it was the calculus of both blended with the variables of what gun/caliber I was shooting, and what everyone else was doing at the time. I'd run a match and get all As in a good time, but a guy would burn it up with Cs and place much higher. I found some of the answer in threads here, along with the DOTW that considered the effect of different scoring methods.

Stage design also plays a role in the calculus of scoring. A stand-up, burn-it-down stage design gives some the edge, which seems to prevail in the USPSA matches I've shot. Others that had shooting from irregular positions, cover, reloads in same, gave me and others a hand.

Either way, I'm having fun, running the gun, and finding strengths and deficits in my performance. Still, it's a irksome.

That's a pretty good explanation of where I am at. Even on the "hoser" stages, my time to first shot was at least .8 slower than B shooters at the match, way slower than the A's and M's.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 10:28 PM
There is a ton of things that factor in why rankings can look so disparate, not enough time to cover it all. OrigamiAK was shooting IDPA classifier in mid-70s, if memory serves me right, while ranked B in USPSA.
In my experience of shooting with legit IDPA Ms, those dudes are advanced enough to have good insight what they need to do to jack up their USPSA ratings. Just shoot some more USPSA to figure it out.

Thanks man. I figure that the draw is a good place to start since I seem to be lacking there. Right now I average about 2.3 to first shot but It's always a 0 (A).

Mechanics?

PPGMD
12-02-2013, 10:53 PM
There are a ton of factors that might result in the difference. Stage planning could be a big part of it, particularly stage planning to your strengths.

How to get better? Suck less. :p

Getting your shooting skills, and the non-shooting gun handling better would be a good start (remember you spend more time doing that than shooting in many stages). 2.3 seconds is a long draw time, from USPSA gear it should really be closer to 1.5 seconds or less for an open target within 10 yards. IMO you should also be able to make 25 yard lower A zone hits on demand at a minimum, and preferable be able to make head shots on demand at those distances.

As far as stage planning, I am always looking at reload points, how to do as many of those on the move while still having shots in the magazine for make ups. But also know when making up shots aren't worth the time (typically when it will force a reload).

Alaskapopo
12-02-2013, 11:06 PM
I'm classified Master in IDPA but only classified as a C shooter at a local club classifier match at the local indoor range.

What gives with this? Pretty much hanging my head right now. I'm not sure how I can be better at both sports.

Its been said that a master in IDPA is pretty much a high C low B in USPSA. Its just a harder sport. IDPA limits stage designers too much in my opinion. Rules such as a specific number of no shoot to shoot targets, no strong hand shots past 10 yards no weak hand shots past 7, low round count stages. Its simply not as challenging. With the new rules out about not being able to move and reload I doubt I will ever attend an IDPA match again. In my opinion its gone full retard.
Pat

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 11:11 PM
Good advice so far.

#1. What should I do to improve my draw?

#2. I find myself pulling my gun into retention before I move.

Should I train differently?

PPGMD
12-02-2013, 11:18 PM
Good advice so far.

#1. What should I do to improve my draw?

#2. I find myself pulling my gun into retention before I move.

Should I train differently?

1 - This week's drill of the week would be a good way to do it (without the concealment garment), I am a huge fan of practicing shooting at increasing distances. Also do it at a fixed distance with a decreasing par time. If you can do it consistently at 2.3 seconds, set the par time to 2.0 and try it. Push it until you start missing, and then back off. Work that for a couple of weeks and try pushing it faster again.

2 - We had this conversation in one of the other forums a few months ago. IMO don't do it, others might disagree, but I don't pull into a proper #2 position (and my definition is Southnarc's version) unless I need it.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 11:23 PM
What is #2 position?

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 11:28 PM
My current draw routine.

Buzzer (contact), right hand to gun, establish grip, bring gun to chest, establish grip with left hand, press out to target, then fire.

This is the best description I can do without figuring out how to start up a YouTube channel.

PPGMD
12-02-2013, 11:43 PM
What is #2 position?

Retention by your breast, see the "Proper #2" in one of the forums above this one.


My current draw routine.

Buzzer (contact), right hand to gun, establish grip, bring gun to chest, establish grip with left hand, press out to target, then fire.

That is the gist of what everyone else does too. Honestly beyond drills, and simple suggestions you are going to need professional instruction by someone that knows you want to get faster.

goosehunter
12-02-2013, 11:54 PM
Links? Videos?

My search fu is weak.

PPGMD
12-03-2013, 12:16 AM
Video of what I mean about the number 2 position.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?462-A-proper-2

JeffJ
12-03-2013, 09:45 AM
Get Anderson's or Stoeger's dryfire books. They'll help a lot. Your draw is a little slow, I'm going to guess that your reloads, transitions, and stage planning are lacking as well. In IDPA you've got 1 or 2 reloads per stage where as in USPSA Prod. you might have 5. Transitions are really where most people are killing themselves. Open A zones out to about 10 yards, 1 yard apart or less, your transitions should match your splits, if you are slower than that it is really something to work on.

You might think about shooting Limited if you want to focus on the shooting aspects for a little while. Production has a lot more stage planning aspects with the limited capacity.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 10:15 AM
I thought about loading my mags up all the way but it seemed a little gamey.

I'll check out those books.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 10:19 AM
Video of what I mean about the number 2 position.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?462-A-proper-2

Aahhh. I've been bringing my gun way too high before pressing out. I've actually hit my chin with the rear sight when really "going for it" in dryfire.

Tamara
12-03-2013, 10:47 AM
Caleb, you are getting seriously trolled.

Ya think? :rolleyes: ;)

cclaxton
12-03-2013, 11:36 AM
Get Anderson's or Stoeger's dryfire books. They'll help a lot. Your draw is a little slow, I'm going to guess that your reloads, transitions, and stage planning are lacking as well. In IDPA you've got 1 or 2 reloads per stage where as in USPSA Prod. you might have 5. Transitions are really where most people are killing themselves. Open A zones out to about 10 yards, 1 yard apart or less, your transitions should match your splits, if you are slower than that it is really something to work on.

You might think about shooting Limited if you want to focus on the shooting aspects for a little while. Production has a lot more stage planning aspects with the limited capacity.

Better yet: Take a Steve Anderson and/or Stoeger classes.....that helped me a lot.

2nd the recommendation on dry-fire books.

Areas that I have found quite different:
1) USPSA uses a lot more surrender position and surrender position uprange. Work on improving speed and turning and shooting quickly, especially starting uprange.
2) USPSA reloading is quite different and you have to do stage planning much differently. Going to slide-lock is still a bad habit of mine, but it wastes time in USPSA;
3) Physical movement takes time, and I found the extra 20 pounds I carry and my less-than-adequate exercise routine works against me. So, cutting back on portions and calories and off to the gym at least 3 times a week. Focus on quick, explosive movement when you need to get TO a shooting position quickly. Don't forget the good shoes!
4) USPSA penalizes you more harshly for any misses for Failure to Engage, so make sure you get all your targets.
5) If you are going to continue in both, I find it better to compete in Limited-10 because the round counts are the same (for SSP and ESP), and consistency prevents mistakes. (With the excitement after the buzzer, being surrounded by gunsmoke, with the crowds cheering you on in the background, your body might think you are shooting the other sport!!!)

Sounds like you will enjoy the challenge....be safe and get Steve's books.

Cody

ToddG
12-03-2013, 12:16 PM
You made M in IDPA with a 2.3s draw? That's 32 seconds just to break your first shot 14 times (not accounting for any added time when turning with the draw, drawing on the move, or drawing from behind cover). So one-third of the total time you have for making M got used up firing 14 out of 90 shots. I'm having a hard time believing that.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 12:28 PM
You made M in IDPA with a 2.3s draw? That's 32 seconds just to break your first shot 14 times (not accounting for any added time when turning with the draw, drawing on the move, or drawing from behind cover). So one-third of the total time you have for making M got used up firing 14 out of 90 shots. I'm having a hard time believing that.

2.3 seconds is just a rough average. Some better, some worse :). I did some dryfire this morning with my par time at 2 seconds trying the "proper 2" technique. Easily hitting under 2 seconds. I can't wait to try this out in live fire.

I also am thinking that I shouldn't be bringing the gun as high as my sight line before the press out. Gonna play around with that a little.

Thoughts?

Mr_White
12-03-2013, 12:38 PM
Thoughts?

On the sub-issue of the draw, video would help us offer useful suggestions.

As for IDPA vs. USPSA, I am not surprised at the difference or the emotional shock at the difference. I was a bit shocked at first that I could shoot the IDPA Classifier well under the M threshold, but initially classified B in USPSA.

JHC
12-03-2013, 12:51 PM
Caleb, you are getting seriously trolled.

OP, wear your fishing vest next time to the USPSA classifier match, as you must have had a bad day -- I think IDPA master translates more like a low USPSA B, than a C.

I still think GJM was correct but its a fun topic to air out in a candid no sacred cows fashion anyway. ;)

I am a decent pistol shot and found my two USPSA matches this year soul crushingly difficult. The complexity of executing a fast plan, actually fastly, with all that noise going on? Dayim!

jetfire
12-03-2013, 01:13 PM
Ya think? :rolleyes: ;)

Yeah, I bit on this one.

littlejerry
12-03-2013, 02:12 PM
Are you going from indoor to outdoor shooting? Most of the indoor IDPA matches I've been to had very little movement, and it was heavily scripted. Don't forget to RUN when you need to.

ToddG
12-03-2013, 02:18 PM
I am a decent pistol shot and found my two USPSA matches this year soul crushingly difficult. The complexity of executing a fast plan, actually fastly, with all that noise going on? Dayim!

I think there are a LOT of differences that play into that and few of them are related to how the respective sports establish classification. USPSA tends to favor athleticism and stage "strategy" far more than IDPA.

Even removing that (since it tends to be less of a factor in classifiers), the classification systems themselves are substantially different.

All of that aside, I'd certainly like to see IDPA HQ look at actual Classifier score reports and find a number closer to 5% for making Master. I'd also be in favor of forcing all Master-rated IDPA shooters to reshoot the Classifier to maintain their rating. But I'm not on the Board or even a Tiger Team. :cool:

gtmtnbiker98
12-03-2013, 02:40 PM
I think there are a LOT of differences that play into that and few of them are related to how the respective sports establish classification. USPSA tends to favor athleticism and stage "strategy" far more than IDPA.

Even removing that (since it tends to be less of a factor in classifiers), the classification systems themselves are substantially different.

All of that aside, I'd certainly like to see IDPA HQ look at actual Classifier score reports and find a number closer to 5% for making Master. I'd also be in favor of forcing all Master-rated IDPA shooters to reshoot the Classifier to maintain their rating. But I'm not on the Board or even a Tiger Team. :cool:
You are still my hero, Todd!!:cool:

Sal Picante
12-03-2013, 04:07 PM
I think there are a LOT of differences that play into that and few of them are related to how the respective sports establish classification. USPSA tends to favor athleticism and stage "strategy" far more than IDPA.

I agree that USPSA matches offers a richer experience, but completely disagree with the idea that USPSA classifiers favor athleticism...



I'd also be in favor of forcing all Master-rated IDPA shooters to reshoot the Classifier to maintain their rating. But I'm not on the Board or even a Tiger Team. :cool:

I think I'd rather claw my eyes out than ever shoot another IDPA classifier match - OMG those "matches" move at a glacial pace...

Shawn.L
12-03-2013, 04:42 PM
Science fact: USPSA is harder than IDPA. Also a fact: aside from drawing from concealment, anything you do to get better at USPSA will make you better at IDPA.

Truth.

ToddG
12-03-2013, 05:22 PM
I agree that USPSA matches offers a richer experience,

I didn't say "richer experience." I said they involve more athleticism and depend more on stage planning. Whether that's "richer" or not depends on your personal interests.


but completely disagree with the idea that USPSA classifiers favor athleticism...

If you read what I actually wrote, you'll see I said that exact thing in the very next paragraph:
"Even removing that (since it tends to be less of a factor in classifiers), the classification systems themselves are substantially different."

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 05:55 PM
The refreshing part about USPSA is that nobody told me how to shoot the stage even though their classifiers differ from actual stages.

On my original point, I ordered Anderson's 2 books and downloaded Stoegers books to my Kindle. I have some reading to do tonight....

Tamara
12-03-2013, 06:27 PM
...but completely disagree with the idea that USPSA classifiers favor athleticism...

I don't think anybody's saying that it's a big factor in classifiers, but if you can't run (like, for example, you have a steel rod in your shin that leaves you with a sort of jogging shamble in place of a top speed sprint) it will affect your score in any time-weighted shooting competition where there is movement between positions on the clock. True Science Fact! :p

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 06:45 PM
I don't think anybody's saying that it's a big factor in classifiers, but if you can't run (like, for example, you have a steel rod in your shin that leaves you with a sort of jogging shamble in place of a top speed sprint) it will affect your score in any time-weighted shooting competition where there is movement between positions on the clock. True Science Fact! :p

Explain Miculek, Hobdell, and Leatham.

Sal Picante
12-03-2013, 06:53 PM
Sorry, you said "less of factor", which I read as implying it was still a factor... Let's not get caught up in semantics here for a second, though, and lemme pose a question here:

Does anyone think that USPSA classifiers test a substantially different skill set than the IDPA classifier, or rather, is it just that the cut-offs in IDPA are too low?

Tamara
12-03-2013, 07:19 PM
Does anyone think that USPSA classifiers test a substantially different skill set than the IDPA classifier...

Not really, no. I'd go with your latter statement.

Tamara
12-03-2013, 07:22 PM
Explain Miculek, Hobdell, and Leatham.

Dude, you completely blew your "Poor Befuddled IDPA Shooter" cover with that. Troll better.

Anyhow, don't be a naif: I'm not saying you gotta be Usain Bolt, but you can't be giving up two+ seconds every time you move to the next box, either.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 07:42 PM
Dude, you completely blew your "Poor Befuddled IDPA Shooter" cover with that. Troll better.

Anyhow, don't be a naif: I'm not saying you gotta be Usain Bolt, but you can't be giving up two+ seconds every time you move to the next box, either.

I'm not poor or befuddled. I've been a USPSA member for years. Just like I'm an NRA, Ducks Unlimited, SASS, USPSA, IDPA, Pheasants Forever, and NWTF member. I haven't hunted for years, but I feel that my money is well used for those organizations.

I've read the Front Sight magazines for years which leads me to believe that physical fitness doesn't have to do a lot with success.

What I can tell you from my experience is that I fit right in at my idpa club as far as age and weight go. The guys at the USPSA match were a bit younger and more fit.

I agree with Todd G, USPSA is definitely more physical than what I am used to.

nwhpfan
12-03-2013, 07:59 PM
The one and only time I shot the IDPA classifier, I shot Master. Of course I was by myself, without a crowd, so that's easily worth a few seconds against me :)

But in USPSA, the times and accuracy of the top shooters are absolutely amazing. I'm not a M or GM.

If IDPA took USPSA's lead and graded us against the highest score on record, as Todd points out, and only the top 5 percentile, etc. were "Masters" you'd see a whole lot less "Masters."

Anyone know what Bob Vogel, NIlls Johnson, etc. shoot on the IDPA classifier?

BN
12-03-2013, 08:06 PM
I'd also be in favor of forcing all Master-rated IDPA shooters to reshoot the Classifier to maintain their rating. But I'm not on the Board or even a Tiger Team. :cool:

I worked to make Master so I don't have to shoot the classifier every year. :) I don't want to be downgraded. I'm gonna get old someday and I wanna relive my past successes. ;)

To the OP. USPSA and IDPA are very different. A lot of stuff in USPSA is just a distraction from the shooting. Shoot accurately and find ways to cut your time while you are doing all of the stuff that isn't shooting. Moving from place to place and setting up to shoot can be a big time waster. If you need to run then RUN. A lot of starts in USPSA give you plenty of time to draw as you move from the start position to the first shooting position. Economy of motion.

YVK
12-03-2013, 08:31 PM
Anyone know what Bob Vogel, NIlls Johnson, etc. shoot on the IDPA classifier?

There is a video of Stoeger shooting it just under 1 minute. Shooting within 5-10% of that...well, I'll keep working on it.

Then again, he was by himself. Had it been a sanctioned match, IDPA would've found a way to slap him with a few procedurals.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 08:41 PM
I just made it through Stoeger's first book. Good read but a bit short. Clearly a shooter, not a writer.

I am now utterly conflicted on my draw stroke.

nwhpfan
12-03-2013, 09:21 PM
There is a video of Stoeger shooting it just under 1 minute. Shooting within 5-10% of that...well, I'll keep working on it.

Then again, he was by himself. Had it been a sanctioned match, IDPA would've found a way to slap him with a few procedurals.

Well, by USPSA math, to compare apples to oranges, and compared to Ben Stoeger,; just making IDPA Master (60 seconds to 91 seconds) is the equivalent of B class (65%):)

YVK
12-03-2013, 09:33 PM
Yes. My only problem is with counting percentages off of a single performance. Standout performances could skew it a wrong way.
Now, if Nils, Manny, JJ, Vogel etc all shot it under sixty, then the calculation would be legit.

GJM
12-03-2013, 09:40 PM
So, my wife and I are training with Manny Bragg this week. Very nice guy and excellent shooter (name withheld to protect the innocent) from HK's team is here training with Shannon Smith. (He shoots a P30LS DA/SA.)

We all meet for lunch. My break the ice comment to him was "so I understand you shoot a lot of IDPA." Until I started laughing, he wasn't.

Can we turn this thread into a poll, on how bad the goose is trolling PF?

Mr_White
12-03-2013, 09:41 PM
The one and only time I shot the IDPA classifier, I shot Master. Of course I was by myself, without a crowd, so that's easily worth a few seconds against me :)

But in USPSA, the times and accuracy of the top shooters are absolutely amazing. I'm not a M or GM.

If IDPA took USPSA's lead and graded us against the highest score on record, as Todd points out, and only the top 5 percentile, etc. were "Masters" you'd see a whole lot less "Masters."

Anyone know what Bob Vogel, NIlls Johnson, etc. shoot on the IDPA classifier?

Vogel, Stoeger, and Sevigny are on record shooting the IDPA Classifier in 57 to 59.xx seconds.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 09:51 PM
Yes. My only problem is with counting percentages off of a single performance. Standout performances could skew it a wrong way.
Now, if Nils, Manny, JJ, Vogel etc all shot it under sixty, then the calculation would be legit.

That's my gripe about the IDPA classifier that I shot on a good day vs. my USPSA that I apparently shot on a bad day. I'll admit that I shot a bit slowly, but I always go for.A's.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 09:56 PM
So, my wife and I are training with Manny Bragg this week. Very nice guy and excellent shooter (name withheld to protect the innocent) from HK's team is here training with Shannon Smith. (He shoots a P30LS DA/SA.)

We all meet for lunch. My break the ice comment to him was "so I understand you shoot a lot of IDPA." Until I started laughing, he wasn't.

Can we turn this thread into a poll, on how bad the goose is trolling PF?

No troll , just trying to improve.

nwhpfan
12-03-2013, 09:57 PM
Vogel, Stoeger, and Sevigny are on record shooting the IDPA Classifier in 57 to 59.xx seconds.

Very much makes the point that IDPA should consider lower the time required to be a Master; to within 5% of the tops... It would give competitors a more accurate assessment of themselves vs. those that are really the best.

If you walk around and say your a Master IDPA shooter but you're 30% slower and 1/3rd as accurate as the top Masters, it can give an incorrect sense of your ability, IMO. Do Masters set goals once they make Master to be mid level, upper 1/3, in contention as their benchmarks, vs. making A class, then M, then GM, then winning major matches etc? When somebody makes GM, you know they are top 5%...but if somebody is a Master, that could mean a lot, without meaning anything :)....

jlw
12-03-2013, 10:01 PM
Vogel and Sevigny aren't IDPA Masters. They are IDPA Distinguished Masters. Has Stoeger shot an IDPA national since the DM rule went into effect?

Tamara
12-03-2013, 10:01 PM
I've read the Front Sight magazines for years which leads me to believe that physical fitness doesn't have to do a lot with success.

Look, dudie, I was responding to Les, who, since he knows me in person, probably got what I was talking about about when I said "can't run" and "metal rod in shin".


I'm out of this thread. It's Ben fun.

jlw
12-03-2013, 10:02 PM
I'm out of this thread. It's Ben fun.

Now that's funny.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 10:03 PM
Very much makes the point that IDPA should consider lower the time required to be a Master; to within 5% of the tops... It would give competitors a more accurate assessment of themselves vs. those that are really the best.

If you walk around and say your a Master IDPA shooter but you're 30% slower and 1/3rd as accurate as the top Masters, it can give an incorrect sense of your ability, IMO. Do Masters set goals once they make Master to be mid level, upper 1/3, in contention as their benchmarks, vs. making A class, then M, then GM, then winning major matches etc? When somebody makes GM, you know they are top 5%...but if somebody is a Master, that could mean a lot, without meaning anything :)....

At the club level, I am placing near the top if not winning.

Our club mainly consists of volunteers who have to set up stages before we can shoot. I would hate it if my scores were tested against Vogel to determine my ranking.

Tamara
12-03-2013, 10:37 PM
Can we turn this thread into a poll, on how badLY the goose is trolling PF?
FTFY. ;)

It's like he thinks people can somehow post here without actually having an internet connection. :D

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 10:51 PM
FTFY. ;)

It's like he thinks people can somehow post here without actually having an internet connection. :D

Please explain

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 10:53 PM
FTFY. ;)

It's like he thinks people can somehow post here without actually having an internet connection. :D

Do you actually contribute here or just dig on people?

Apparently I came to the wrong place for pointers

cclaxton
12-03-2013, 11:12 PM
Just because someone labels a posting as "trolling" does not make it trolling.

The problem with the definition of trolling is that it is not just a matter of what was posted, but it is also dependent on HOW a reader RECEIVES the message, which may be subjective.

I personally don't see where goosehunter intentionally tried to inflame or disrupt or tried to sow dischord. It is a valid topic for discussion, and on-topic for this site.

Maybe it's a good idea to reread the posts with a different POV that doesn't assume anyone is being disruptive and maybe it will help relieve the concern.

I have found that every time I assume what a person's motive or intentions were from their words...I was wrong.

CC

PPGMD
12-03-2013, 11:14 PM
I would hate it if my scores were tested against Vogel to determine my ranking.

He is speaking of classifier scores. And I think it would be a great idea to start using a curve on the IDPA classifier times.

Even as people get better the classes still reflect on how someone ranks nationally. That is how USPSA classifiers are supposed to work on paper (in reality they haven't recalculated things in a while, though the new classifiers should help).

PPGMD
12-03-2013, 11:24 PM
I've read the Front Sight magazines for years which leads me to believe that physical fitness doesn't have to do a lot with success.

I am going to have to disagree with you there.

Because of the length of field courses and the distances between shooting positions they definitely favor the more athletically inclined.

Most of the USPSA national champion level shooters that are overweight are shooters that have been around for years, and their shooting skill and stage strategies allow them to overcome their handicap. Most of the new champion level shooters are all reasonably fit. As there is quite a bit of scrambling between shooting positions.

goosehunter
12-03-2013, 11:39 PM
Just because someone labels a posting as "trolling" does not make it trolling.

The problem with the definition of trolling is that it is not just a matter of what was posted, but it is also dependent on HOW a reader RECEIVES the message, which may be subjective.

I personally don't see where goosehunter intentionally tried to inflame or disrupt or tried to sow dischord. It is a valid topic for discussion, and on-topic for this site.

Maybe it's a good idea to reread the posts with a different POV that doesn't assume anyone is being disruptive and maybe it will help relieve the concern.

I have found that every time I assume what a person's motive or intentions were from their words...I was wrong.

CC

Thank you.

JHC
12-04-2013, 01:34 PM
Do you actually contribute here or just dig on people?

Apparently I came to the wrong place for pointers

Come on mannn. You're getting a lot of empathy and constructive replies. Don't get butt hurt about a few jabs. This is a good candid no sacred cows thread about the IDPA vs USPSA comparo. Sometimes this topic in other places has gone to just pure gamer vs martial artist which gets nowhere fast. You done good. :D

ToddG
12-04-2013, 01:36 PM
Sorry, you said "less of factor", which I read as implying it was still a factor...

So I haven't shot a USPSA classifier in about a decade and went to their official website. The second classifier they list involves movement from box A to box B. That's adding athleticism as a factor. It's also a factor in the IDPA classifier on the second string of stage 3 (one out of fourteen strings of fire in the IDPA classifier).

As soon as footwork & setups become part of the stage problem you're moving from measuring shooting skill to measuring game skill. I'm not criticizing that -- people like football and there's not a whole lot of shooting skill involved there, at least not on the field -- but it's worth keeping in mind that the guys who are #1 at Bianchi usually aren't the same as the guys who are #1 at Steel Challenge aren't the same as the guys who are #1 at USPSA/IDPA. Different things are getting measured.

If you tell me that the last ten USPSA classifiers you shot involved standing in place and measuring nothing but gun handling and speed/accuracy, I'll happily concede the point. As I said, I haven't shot USPSA in forever.


Does anyone think that USPSA classifiers test a substantially different skill set than the IDPA classifier, or rather, is it just that the cut-offs in IDPA are too low?

Again from my limited experience I think the typical USPSA classifier is a tougher shooting challenge (more targets, partial targets, more distant targets) and I think at least some have no-shoots which are verboten in the IDPA classifier. But mostly the issue is that the bar was set too low in the beginning for IDPA. I made Master in the late 90's and was part of the first wave in the overwhelming glut of M-class IDPA shooters. It's always been a ridiculously top heavy sport. Ernest Langdon and I made our first appeal to the IDPA BOD to do something (almost identical to DM) more than a decade ago.


Very much makes the point that IDPA should consider lower the time required to be a Master; to within 5% of the tops... It would give competitors a more accurate assessment of themselves vs. those that are really the best.

You've gone all apples & oranges again:


Don't quite a few of the truly top guys in USPSA -- the ones being used here as examples -- regularly outperform the "100" on USPSA classifiers? So those aren't based on 95% of their top performance, either.
IDPA has DM now which, I think, is a great idea because you can only achieve that rank by winning a major match. It's a far more exclusive club than USPSA GM.
USPSA Master, apples to apples, is 85% not 95%.
If someone wanted to do the math and set it so IDPA M's accounted for 15% of the membership (or even 10%) I'd definitely think it would be a huge improvement.



Do Masters set goals once they make Master to be mid level, upper 1/3, in contention as their benchmarks, vs. making A class, then M, then GM, then winning major matches etc?

That's like asking if USPSA GMs care about anything once they make GM. If you want to win you need to be competitive with the top guy regardless of what rank the sport bestows upon you, and when.


Most of the USPSA national champion level shooters that are overweight are shooters that have been around for years, and their shooting skill and stage strategies allow them to overcome their handicap. Most of the new champion level shooters are all reasonably fit. As there is quite a bit of scrambling between shooting positions.

More to the point, most of those "out of shape" guys were, in fact, good at doing the athletic stuff needed to win matches even if they weren't going to beat the #2 guy in a Crossfit Marathon. Particularly, notice how Leatham has been affected by having a double knee replacement. He hasn't forgotten how to pull a trigger or line up his sights or manage recoil.

jlw
12-04-2013, 02:36 PM
I'm classified as an EX in all three of the IDPA pistol divisions. I have a very hard time competing at that level as I do not move well at all.

By the same token, some of the guys that thrash me in IDPA can't get within 20 seconds of me at a GSSF match.

In an action shooting sport being able to move pays huge dividends. Yes, there are some outlying examples that don't fall into the norm, but they are just that: exceptions.

Urban_Redneck
12-05-2013, 09:21 AM
If I was running IDPA, the only way to make Master would be a match bump. A person could keep their Master classification through annual classifier performance.

My $0.02

jetfire
12-05-2013, 10:58 AM
If I was running IDPA, the only way to make Master would be a match bump. A person could keep their Master classification through annual classifier performance.

My $0.02

They have a rank for that though, it's called Distinguished Master. The only way to get the highest title in IDPA is to win a major match, or finish within 3% of the winner.

Fartrell Cluggins
12-05-2013, 12:29 PM
Is there a required number of top IDPA shooters that you have to beat at said match?

Hypothetically if no one good showed up and you won the match, would you still get bumped?

Dunno, dont shoot much IDPA.

jetfire
12-05-2013, 12:39 PM
Is there a required number of top IDPA shooters that you have to beat at said match?

Hypothetically if no one good showed up and you won the match, would you still get bumped?

Dunno, dont shoot much IDPA.

It only applies to National championships, so Indoor Nats and Outdoor Nats are the only two matches where you're eligible to win.

Fartrell Cluggins
12-05-2013, 01:08 PM
It only applies to National championships, so Indoor Nats and Outdoor Nats are the only two matches where you're eligible to win.

I think USPSA is similiar, not sure. I would assume that the Org. leadership would not bump someone in the hypothetical event of only average shooters showing up.

ToddG
12-05-2013, 01:38 PM
I think USPSA is similiar, not sure. I would assume that the Org. leadership would not bump someone in the hypothetical event of only average shooters showing up.

I'm not aware of a provision in either IDPA or USPA that says match bumps only count if above-average shooters show up.

Mr_White
12-05-2013, 01:47 PM
I'm not aware of a provision in either IDPA or USPA that says match bumps only count if above-average shooters show up.

Here is the relevant section from the USPSA Classifier FAQ:


Scores From Major Matches
A shooter’s performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help establish a classification. In order for overall scores from a Level II or Level III match to be entered as a classifier, the match director must submit an Application for Level II or Level III match with the "Results for Classification" check box marked. Please note that there is no guarantee that the overall results will be used. As a minimum requirement, the results and competitor list will be reviewed at the USPSA office to determine whether enough top shooters completed the match and performed at a level high enough to be considered a national standard.

If the match is determined to have satisfied all of the requirements, the final score of the match may be entered as a classification score for each shooter. Each division is evaluated based on this criteria so it may be possible for scores from one division to be used while the other division is not.
Level II and Level III matches also may contain classification stages taken from the National Classification Course Book; however, the match director does need to submit the classification report which is generated by the EzWinScore program. Stats officers can program EzWinScore to calculate the correct activity fees for the various levels of USPSA matches when setting up the match on the computer. Select Setup - Match Info, then select the appropriate match type from the drop-down list. Fees for classifier stages are established when the stage is defined. Beginning with EzWinScore version 2.00, classifier files have been pre-defined for you. When defining a stage, set the Classifier drop-down list to Yes to display an additional listing of all authorized classifier stages. If the classifier stage you want to shoot is not listed, it is no longer authorized for use.

In addition, if the competitor shoots an Area Championship or major tournament and wins first or second in a class higher than his or her current classification, the member may be promoted to that higher class, except for Grand Master.

ToddG
12-05-2013, 02:04 PM
Thanks for the correction, Gabe!

Seems awfully arbitrary.

Fartrell Cluggins
12-05-2013, 02:07 PM
so I read that as a No you can't make the highest rank for USPSA and a yes you can (assuming you outshoot hte other DM's and M's that showed up, if any. for IDPA?

Mr_White
12-05-2013, 02:14 PM
Thanks for the correction, Gabe!

Not so much a correction as an addition.


Seems awfully arbitrary.

I agree. They seem to be saying that depending on multiple parties, major match performance may count or not.


so I read that as a No you can't make the highest rank for USPSA and a yes you can (assuming you outshoot hte other DM's and M's that showed up, if any. for IDPA?

If I understand it correctly, you can get a match bump to GM in USPSA, but only at a Level III match where there are a certain number of GMs in the relevant division, and that's generally at Nationals. I seem to remember you have to shoot within 5% of the winner. That's what I remember hearing/reading from much more learned USPSA people. I don't know where that is officially written. I should probably wait for WIILSHOOT or someone much more experienced in USPSA on this because I am not completely certain...

Fartrell Cluggins
12-05-2013, 02:22 PM
In addition, if the competitor shoots an Area Championship or major tournament and wins first or second in a class higher than his or her current classification, the member may be promoted to that higher class, except for Grand Master.

I was looking at that last line, seems like you should though if you beat a GM at nats, unless it was by some kind of fluke.

jlw
12-05-2013, 02:34 PM
It only applies to National championships, so Indoor Nats and Outdoor Nats are the only two matches where you're eligible to win.

... and the IDPA World Shoot.

09 – Classification Rules
9.0.1. IDPA shooters are divided into six (6) separate Classifications so that shooters may compete against others of like skill. These Classifications are Novice, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and Distinguished Master. New IDPA members are Unclassified until they shoot their first IDPA Classifier in a Division. There are two ways to classify shooters, one by shooting the Classifier, and two by being promoted based on performance in a Sanctioned Match.
9.0.2. The IDPA Classifier is a ninety (90) round, three (3) stage, fourteen (14) string match that classifies shooters in a short time. Distinguished Master, however, is only attained by winning the Division Champion title or scoring within three percent (3%) of the Division Champion score, at the IDPA U.S. Nationals, IDPA U.S. Indoor Nationals, or the IDPA World Championship

jetfire
12-05-2013, 02:54 PM
... and the IDPA World Shoot.

09 – Classification Rules
9.0.1. IDPA shooters are divided into six (6) separate Classifications so that shooters may compete against others of like skill. These Classifications are Novice, Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and Distinguished Master. New IDPA members are Unclassified until they shoot their first IDPA Classifier in a Division. There are two ways to classify shooters, one by shooting the Classifier, and two by being promoted based on performance in a Sanctioned Match.
9.0.2. The IDPA Classifier is a ninety (90) round, three (3) stage, fourteen (14) string match that classifies shooters in a short time. Distinguished Master, however, is only attained by winning the Division Champion title or scoring within three percent (3%) of the Division Champion score, at the IDPA U.S. Nationals, IDPA U.S. Indoor Nationals, or the IDPA World Championship

Right, forgot about that. In theory we're supposed to have one of those this year.

Fartrell Cluggins
12-05-2013, 03:04 PM
Right, forgot about that. In theory we're supposed to have one of those this year.

There is an IDPA World shoot?

will Eric Grauffel show up and win that too?

PPGMD
12-05-2013, 03:22 PM
will Eric Grauffel show up and win that too?

No they will pile a bunch of cover calls and procedural calls on him.

Rocket20_Ginsu
12-05-2013, 03:48 PM
I think IDPA master translates more like a low USPSA B, than a C.

That mirrors my experience. I made MA in IDPA and was only a B in USPSA at the time.

To the OP don't be discouraged. It took me A LOT more effort and practice to make M (PROD). I think the fundamental shooting related areas that are tested are similar between the two disciplines (draw, accuracy, recoil control, reloads, transitions, SOM, etc.) are similar, though as many have stated earlier the USPSA COFs have a higher degree of difficulty and complexity (and to me fun). You can certainly be exceptional at both, not just one or the other.

I personally feel that IDPA scoring is much more biased towards accuracy than USPSA. Listen to some of Ben Stoeger's podcasts on hit factor and you can develop a much better perspective on how to improve your performance using that metric. I've not personally used Ben's dry fire book but I can say that the Steve Anderson's book is a solid place to start.

Good luck and enjoy the process of shooting and improving.

jlw
12-05-2013, 04:11 PM
There is an IDPA World shoot?

will Eric Grauffel show up and win that too?

There has been one World Championship. It was in 2011. There will supposedly be more in the future.

jetfire
12-05-2013, 04:40 PM
There is supposed to be one every 3 years, so 2014 would make sense. I heard a rumor that they were going to have it back to back with the Puerto Rico match.

rob_s
12-06-2013, 09:33 PM
So if I understand the OP correctly, you made master in IDPA shooting the Classifier but in shooting the requisite number of classifier stages in USPSA to get classified you only made C?

I will say this about the two games, in order to do extremely well in USPSA you need to understand the game, hit factor, how the points work, the scoring, etc. Outside the individual stages the matches are harder to place in the top tier simply due to inexperience and not understanding the overall gamey-ness of it. IDPA requires much less of this.

goosehunter
12-06-2013, 09:40 PM
So if I understand the OP correctly, you made master in IDPA shooting the Classifier but in shooting the requisite number of classifier stages in USPSA to get classified you only made C?

I will say this about the two games, in order to do extremely well in USPSA you need to understand the game, hit factor, how the points work, the scoring, etc. Outside the individual stages the matches are harder to place in the top tier simply due to inexperience and not understanding the overall gamey-ness of it. IDPA requires much less of this.

Yes. When I shot the idpa classifier a few years back, I was trying to be as accurate as I could be.

When I shot the USPSA classifiers, I was (wrongly) under the assumption that I could "go for it" and place well. I actually had assumed I would be an A class USPSA guy.

rob_s
12-06-2013, 09:45 PM
Yes. When I shot the idpa classifier a few years back, I was trying to be as accurate as I could be.

When I shot the USPSA classifiers, I was (wrongly) under the assumption that I could "go for it" and place well. I actually had assumed I would be an A class USPSA guy.

I'm still not convinced you're not a doodie troll but I'll play along for now.

so you abandoned the technique that worked for you previously because...?

goosehunter
12-06-2013, 10:56 PM
I'm still not convinced you're not a doodie troll but I'll play along for now.

so you abandoned the technique that worked for you previously because...?

The technique that worked for me in idpa is not the same technique that worked for me in uspsa. Maybe it was the time constraints, accuracy, or technique. But it was a disaster.

That is what I'm looking for an answer for. I've read the first Stoeger book and he specifically mentions the press out as if it's a bad thing. Maybe under idpa time limits it worked for me?

There are some good drills in there that I have just started trying. Anderson books should be here tomorrow or Monday.

goosehunter
12-06-2013, 10:57 PM
"Doodie troll"?

I gotta ask.....

Doug
12-07-2013, 02:06 AM
"Doodie troll"?

I gotta ask.....

Someone has read Ben Stoeger's books and doesn't know about doodie. First rule of Fight Club...

ToddG
12-09-2013, 12:46 PM
We're getting close to the "interforum warfare" thing, folks. Keep the discussion on topic.