Why the hatred for lasers?

[NETim]

First of all, I admit to visiting other gun related forums.

Why, I don't know. :)

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?

I can understand the disdain for them if one believes they're a substitute for skill, reps and practice.

Once one has the basics well ingrained and understands such things as index, trigger control and the importance of the front sight, what's the harm? As long as the basic stuff is still practiced, what's the harm, other than a lighter wallet?

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

[Tamara]

First of all, I admit to visiting other gun related forums.

Why, I don't know. :)

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?

Because they'll "give away your position"!

You know, when you're laying an ambush for Charlie on the Ho Chi Minh Trail with your J-frame, as one often finds one's self doing. ;)

(These are the same people who don't like lights, and for the same reason, and who then wind up shooting 72-y.o. wandering Alzheimer's patients.)

[LittleLebowski]

These are the same people who think a rail on an AR with a light is "tacticool." Pay them no mind.

[Cheap Shot]

First of all, I admit to visiting other gun related forums.

Why, I don't know. :)

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?

I can understand the disdain for them if one believes they're a substitute for skill, reps and practice.

Once one has the basics well ingrained and understands such things as index, trigger control and the importance of the front sight, what's the harm? As long as the basic stuff is still practiced, what's the harm, other than a lighter wallet?

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

A very good question

Full disclosure I don't have one, and have never used one. But its a journey I may eventually take to learn for myself.

The following is what I've heard.

Cons

You get in the habit of a target focus instead of a front sight focus

Pro

Better in low light, no light than sights

YMMV

[98z28]

No clue. I strongly prefer to have them on serious-use handguns. The benefits far outweigh the costs, IMHO.

[Chuck Haggard]

I like lasers, a lot.

I think CT grips on a J frame are damn near mandatory.

Lasers on duty handguns and rifles also work really well.


I'll throw out that Jim Cirillo was a big fan of lasers on pistols, and he may have know something about fighting with a handgun.

[NETim]

I like lasers, a lot.

I think CT grips on a J frame are damn near mandatory.

Lasers on duty handguns and rifles also work really well.


I'll throw out that Jim Cirillo was a big fan of lasers on pistols, and he may have know something about fighting with a handgun.

Cirillo's words carry a lot of weight IMHO.

I have read too many words from guys like Cirillo* who have BTDT to dismiss lasers as "gimmicks."

As long as one doesn't believe they're buying expertise and understands there still is a need to press the trigger carefully, lasers can be a good thing.

*On second thought, I don't know that there was anyone quite like Cirillo.

[jetfire]

Lasers are awesome on defensive pistols. Simple logical progression:

Being able to see the badguy is important
being able to get accurate hits is important
a laser allows you to clearly see the badguy and get accurate hits

Yes, I'm now target focused instead of front sight focused. That's not a bad thing. When I practice on a well lit indoor range, I turn my sweet beamz off and practice with my sights. Because if I can shoot well using sights, using the laser is a piece of cake.

[GJM]

I have been thinking/experimenting with lasers lately, recently reviewed JodyH's thread from a few years ago, and almost added something to it.

One issue -- is the form factor of the laser. Front activation doesn't reliably activate for me with my two hand grip. I don't like the bore/laser offset of the X400. Have been playing with CT grips, which either rear or side activation. The CT grips are a tad sticky for an ideal, fast grip, but they sure are a game changer for pure shooting in low light on my Sig 226R (I got the military spec, dual visible/IR model). Experimenting with a RDS versus a laser at dusk (not to say you could't have a RDS and laser), leaving aside the ability to use a laser from weird positions, I prefer the laser for pure shooting as the RMR-02 blooms badly for me. M&P CT may be the single best application I have tried -- too bad I am not a M&P fan.

Here is my Safariland holster,and JM appendix, home modified for the laser.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/laser1_zps9158bca3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/laser1_zps9158bca3.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/laser2_zps99c25303.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/laser2_zps99c25303.jpg.html)

[GardoneVT]

First of all, I admit to visiting other gun related forums.

Why, I don't know. :)

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?

I can understand the disdain for them if one believes they're a substitute for skill, reps and practice.

Once one has the basics well ingrained and understands such things as index, trigger control and the importance of the front sight, what's the harm? As long as the basic stuff is still practiced, what's the harm, other than a lighter wallet?

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

If my local range is any indication, the only thing a laser sight does for most shooters is demonstrate how fast someone can jerk a trigger . Since the average gun buyer shoots to impress his friends and spouse, they get frustrated when their 7yd target looks like a 12 gauge pattern despite the laser.

[GJM]

If my local range is any indication, the only thing a laser sight does for most shooters is demonstrate how fast someone can jerk a trigger . Since the average gun buyer shoots to impress his friends and spouse, they get frustrated when their 7yd target looks like a 12 gauge pattern despite the laser.

Perhaps you should introduce them to Dot Torture?

[Mr_White]

Most of the laser hatred that has been expressed to me boils down to a few specific perceived issues (none of which I agree with):


Being a piece of electronic equipment more complex than iron sights, it would fail at the worst possible time.

Using a laser to aim is slower than using iron sights.

Lasers are used in a pointless attempt at buying skill.

[SGT_Calle]

I like lasers, in general. I have a lot to learn and improve upon where shooting skill is concerned though. I like Caleb's train of thought on the matter. I have a laser on my AR but none on pistols, though I would like a CT grip on my 686.

As far as RMR+laser, I believe Doc posted a photo this weekend of one of his M&Ps with both in another thread.


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[TR675]

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?

Lack of good experience and training would be my guess.

I was not convinced on lasers until I shot a low-light match. It was a game changer. I think they're great.

I believe that lots of people don't know how to use them properly. I've see shooters either focus on the target and swing the dot around until it's on point, or focus on the dot and go hunting for the target. Neither is especially efficient and may lead to the belief that they are slower than irons.

Barring a compromised position, I find it more effective to index the gun as if I am going to get the typical flash sight picture; the laser, if properly zeroed, magically appears on the target and I look over the sights, using the laser as an aiming aid. The sights are a backup for the laser at that point; they appear in my peripheral vision and verify that I am pointing the gun in the right general direction. At this point I am focused on the target; since the laser is literally painted on the target I am also focused on it. Fine tuning of the aiming point happens here, if necessary; often it is not. I do not go chasing the dot around during recoil - that way leads to madness. My focus remains on the target. With good recoil management the laser reappears on the target by itself much like the front sight of the gun does when using irons (assuming you are not sight-tracking). Repeat the process. I find this faster and more effective than using irons.

During transitions I maintain a target focus. The index gets the laser on target; again, I do not chase the laser around. I think a good, trained-to-the-point-of-instinct index is the key to using the laser effectively.

I have no idea if this has any relation to what CT or other qualified laser experts teach, or is generally accepted doctrine, but it seems to work for me. If anyone has taken any formal training courses with a laser focus I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts.

ETA: +1 to everything Caleb said.

[ToddG]

The majority of people who badmouth laser sights have little (or no) experience with them and almost none of them have any formal training on the proper use of a laser on a "combat" handgun.

Also, realize that most people do all their shooting outdoors during the day (where traditional red lasers are hard to see) and this can seriously bias their understanding and appreciation of what the laser can do under more common conditions. Once green lasers become more commonplace I think you'll see a drop in criticism.

Of course, there will always be folks who can't or won't justify spending hundreds of dollars on a laser and they'll continue to explain to you why LASERS SUCK because that's easier than explaining why they're too cheap to buy good gear for self-defense.

[TCinVA]

First of all, I admit to visiting other gun related forums.

Why, I don't know. :)

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?

I can understand the disdain for them if one believes they're a substitute for skill, reps and practice.

Once one has the basics well ingrained and understands such things as index, trigger control and the importance of the front sight, what's the harm? As long as the basic stuff is still practiced, what's the harm, other than a lighter wallet?

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Wanton, unforgivable, irreparable ignorance.

Without fail when I see lasers come up on other forums I see at least two people argue you can't identify a threat with a laser. Because in their vast wisdom these people apparently haven't worked out the difference between a white light and an electronic aiming reference. The mind boggles.

Then the usual list of the dangers of lasers is repeated by people who obviously have minimal time actually trying to use one.

I put people who grouse about lasers in the same camp as people who think that dudes who mount lights, red dots, and a useful sling to their rifle are stupid because it's adding unreliable electronic gadgetry to the weapon. Nevermind that these items are found on the weapons of EVERYONE who actually has gunfighting with a long gun as a part of their job description. It's useless luddite nonsense from people who don't have much (usually ANY) experience using a firearm as a tool of serious social interaction.

[Gray Ghost]

Having trained for 15 years to focus on the front sight, the laser thing doesn't make a lot of sense to me. White lights and slings are on all my social long guns, and I run Eotechs and Aimpoints as appropriate, so I am neither cheap nor a Luddite.

I bought a set of Crimson Trace laser grips last year and tried them on one of my guns. They were fun to play with, but I just couldn't get over having to take my focus away from the front sight.

I'm interested to hear from others on this. I know there are guys who think you will never see your sights in a real fight anyway, but in hunting and in competition I have not experienced that.

[Zhurdan]

Daylight? Sure, Use Your Sights. Dusk Into Dark? Laser It Up. Really Dark? White Light.

Sorry For The Caps, For Some Reason MyPhone Loves Them.

[klewis]

I love lasers. In fact, I'd trade all my guns for a couple in the 40 watt range...

[Joseph B.]

I think there is a big difference between “hate” and dislike or personal preference. From a military stand point, I think IR lasers are a must when running NOD and blacked out. I think the visible (green lasers) are great for intimidation (no shoot threats) when running white light in low/no light conditions (primarily speaking from a rifle/carbine standpoint). However, the visible lasers drop off in necessity during the actual engagement when running a red dot optic in combination with white light.

On a pistol, a few of our guys had CT grip laser, it was an early version, issued back in 2003 for M9’s. They did not last very long in the desert, the pressure pad came apart and the laser node would get busted up in short order. I think most of the staff guys didn’t have any problems with theirs (in their shoulder holsters) going to and from the chow hall and their computers, but for the guys who were banging their gear up out on missions, it was very different. The disclaimer here is only one guy in my battalion used a M9 and used it on a bongo truck on a perimeter of a raid b/c is M4 had a FTF (I don’t know if he used the CT laser or not).

In the training environment I have gotten to use the CT grip lasers quite a bit (FOF, and white light tactics). I’ve been fortunate to play with a lot of cool gear and technology. I personally did not see a real advantage to the laser, outside of getting a good first round hit/speed of getting the first round off. However, I did personally find it faster and easier to use sights in combination with white light, when having to make follow up shots, and dealing with multiple threats. Some guys I trained with really liked them, some did not. I personally think the RMR on a pistol with a mounted light for low light is the best combination I have got to play with.

Do I think it’s a good piece of gear for someone who trains with it and incorporates it into their LL training? Sure, anything that offers the individual a advantage should be evaluated and tested to see how it works for the individual. Does that mean I am cheap or a hater b/c I am not wasting the money on gear I personally do not feel a necessity for myself? I think that’s pretty laughable, and very much an inappropriate assessment. There are several Low Light trainers (who spend a lot of time with FOF training) who do not run lasers on a pistol or rifle, I can’t make statements for them, but for me I find it redundant with other technology (i.e. optics, white lights, and good night sights).

I can give a bunch of examples where tactical units (MIL/LE) can and do employ laser technology with good reasons. I can also see the benefit for people who use it for defensive carry, and I am all for it, as long as they train with it (i.e. in low/no light conditions). But they are not the end all be all, and the perceived advantages from what I have seen are individually dependent. Simply put, they are not for everyone. I am not sure if that puts me in the “hater or cheap” crowd, but for what it is worth, that’s my opinion.

[Chipster]

I don't like the bore/laser offset of the X400.

I've had one for a few years and although it serves it purpose well, it is less than ideal. I try to set mine up for what I consider and reasonable range (15 yards) and then practice enough that I compensate for the offset if need be. I actually have a low light shoot coming up and think I am going to try to set the POI/POA up at 25 yards and see if that offset is too great or if it'll work for my needs.

I also hate the activation versus the Crimson Trace grips, but I hate the Glock CT grips!

[SGT_Calle]

I've had one for a few years and although it serves it purpose well, it is less than ideal. I try to set mine up for what I consider and reasonable range (15 yards) and then practice enough that I compensate for the offset if need be. I actually have a low light shoot coming up and think I am going to try to set the POI/POA up at 25 yards and see if that offset is too great or if it'll work for my needs.

I also hate the activation versus the Crimson Trace grips, but I hate the Glock CT grips!

I wonder what the maximum difference would be if set at 25 yards, and a what range the difference would be at its max.
Our illustrious radio star John Johnson mentioned this week on his show that he would be running one of the new Streamlight light/green laser combos on his Mk25 test. I look forward to hearing his experiences and seeing how he adjusts to this same problem.


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[GJM]

After messing around with different zeroes, and seeing change in POI like a black powder rifle between 200-300 yards, I settled on a parallel zero as the best choice. Then you basically will hit three inches high from muzzle to (pistol) infinity, but opposite offset of an AR.

[Tamara]

I settled on a parallel zero as the best choice.

I've been thinking about this. What's the easiest way you've found to ensure you've got it reasonably close to truly parallel?

[Tamara]

On a pistol, a few of our guys had CT grip laser, it was an early version, issued back in 2003 for M9’s. They did not last very long in the desert, the pressure pad came apart and the laser node would get busted up in short order. I think most of the staff guys didn’t have any problems with theirs (in their shoulder holsters) going to and from the chow hall and their computers...

I'll keep that in mind for if I have to go bang my gear up on missions. As it is, the LG-205s I have are on their second J-frame and have been carried in a coat pocket or purse from chow hall to computer and back for, like, a decade now. By comparison the two year old Lasergrips on my main CCW piece are brand-new.

[GJM]

Measure the offset, and make the bullet hit that far off. For example, if the laser is three inches directly below the bore, zero it so the bullet hits three inches high. That should hold constant from muzzle to where the bullet starts to drop. Test it.

This quickly shows why a close laser to bore relationship is desirable.

[Chuck Haggard]

I like to keep the dot as parallel as possible, and if I can't do anything else I set the dot to the iron sights on a target sitting at the 100. I am,,,, unlikely,,, to be shooting at people with a pistol farther than that.

[Sparks2112]

I wonder what the maximum difference would be if set at 25 yards, and a what range the difference would be at its max.
Our illustrious radio star John Johnson mentioned this week on his show that he would be running one of the new Streamlight light/green laser combos on his Mk25 test. I look forward to hearing his experiences and seeing how he adjusts to this same problem.


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Surefire. ;)

I plan on zeroing the thing at 25 and testing at various ranges. It'll depend on what the offset is from bore to diode. I'm sure I'll report my findings once I have them.

[Default.mp3]

Surefire. ;)

I plan on zeroing the thing at 25 and testing at various ranges. It'll depend on what the offset is from bore to diode. I'm sure I'll report my findings once I have them.

Oh, you got your hands on an X400U-GN? Any idea on the release date? I've seen it in the systems at the my local dealer, and was assured at the NRA Convention it would be out by the end of the year...

[SGT_Calle]

Surefire. ;)

I plan on zeroing the thing at 25 and testing at various ranges. It'll depend on what the offset is from bore to diode. I'm sure I'll report my findings once I have them.

Dang it!



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[Sparks2112]

Oh, you got your hands on an X400U-GN? Any idea on the release date? I've seen it in the systems at the my local dealer, and was assured at the NRA Convention it would be out by the end of the year...

I know I have an X400 Ultra coming. I've been told it's a green, but, it could be a red. There's some conflict of interest issues that I don't really feel I'm able to get into on an open forum that are going to determine whether or not I get a green one.

[ToddG]

I've yet to meet anyone who's put reasonable time & effort into understanding and practicing the benefits of a pistol-mounted laser (specifically Lasergrips) who hasn't come to appreciate the added capability they provide. I've watched some very notable people in the industry, including folks like Ken Hackathorn and Ernest Langdon, do a complete 180 on pistol lasers after giving the laser an educated chance.

The benefits, especially in a world where red dot sights have come to dominate on long guns, should be obvious: distinct high visibility aiming point, and ability to focus on the target and aiming point simultaneously. There's also the ability to deliver very precise shots without an eye-gun-target line (e.g., "hip shooting" or firing from compromised positions around cover, etc).

re: zero, I've never liked the parallel approach but that could be at least in part because I've got so little time running a red dot on a carbine (and dealing with the resultant offset issues). I don't want to plan to aim somewhere other than where I want the bullet to land. I'm more comfortable knowing that from point blank to 2x my "zero" distance I'll be within an inch of the dot. I can still account for the offset at very close ranges if I need to but at longer distances (where the parallax issue is minor compared to gun/ammo and human factor in terms of putting rounds on target) it's not as big a deal to me. Zeroed at 15yd, my POI at even 50yd is going to be within 4" of POA or so... greater precision than my eyesight can achieve, especially on anything but a high contrast, static practice target.

[David Armstrong]

Why the hatred for lasers I see elsewhere?
Ignorance. Incompetence. Improper training. As one who was supporting the use of lasers long before it was popular to support the use of lasers I've heard it all. Years back I helped convert Todd and he wrote a great article about it that I still recommend to anyone who is interested in lasers on firearms. Admittedly it is a bit old and could maybe use a bit of an update and polish (HINT HINT HINT, Todd!) it is still a good piece to check out when discussing the topic.
http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2009/09/looking-at-lasers-myth-and-reality.html

[Josh Runkle]

I think we need to distinguish between a laser being used as an ADDITIONAL tool or as a primary tool.

I think the small hate that I have for lasers is that people in the gunshop sell or recommend them to people who are buying their first gun, who have been shooting like twice in their life and have never taken a class. "Oh, you have trouble pulling the trigger straight to the rear and managing recoil on that ultra compact .380 you just bought? Here, this laser will fix that. It's only $130."

I think it can be a great additional tool, and so I run one on an AR, but I don't like that they are marketed and sold as a "fix-me" for people who really need to learn some basic fundamentals.

One problem I do have pistol lasers like the crimson trace type, is that the laser is blocked by my primary hand's straight forefinger, which is off of the trigger...as practiced/trained, my forefinger doesn't engage the trigger (and thereby unblock the laser) until I am "on target". I know I am "on target" because I have either used my sights or am point shooting to get to that moment where I'm on trigger. At that point, the laser is irrelevant, aside from follow-up shots. But, am I really going to switch focus between front sight and target focus in the split between shots?

To sum, I don't think all lasers are useful, but some can be very useful with the right application and training, and I especially don't like how lasers are sold to the masses. I would like to see shops recommend training to fix problems rather than selling another piece of gear, but then, that's the history of the world, isn't it?

[Chuck Haggard]

They tend to be really useful for folks who can no longer see their sights, or are in a position to be unable to do so.

My BUGs have CT grips because if I am down to using them it may be because I am on the ground and firing from some jacked up position due to getting shot up badly.

[LittleLebowski]

What lasers are recommended for carbines?

[SGT_Calle]

I have this one: http://www.laserlyte.com/products/k-15
I don't how it rates for "serious business" but I like it and am confident it would do fine.
My $.02.
ETA: it was much less than the listed price, as usual

[JMS]

Measure the offset, and make the bullet hit that far off.

Tam, that's the center of gravity....as to HOW to make it parallel:

1) Presupposes that you have a) a securable pistol rest or some manner of being able to secure the gun in place and b) a boresighting laser.
-Once you figure out the vertical/lateral offset of the laser aperture and the center of bore, mark that offset on a target of your choosing, relative to the center of that target.
-Put the target any distance form the muzzle that's convenient for you. 1' works as well as 3' works as well as 15', depending on whether or not you want to walk.
-Set up and turn on the boresighter, secure the gun in your rest in such a way that the borelight is on the center of the target.
-Turn on your aim laser, perform L/R - U/D adjustments as required until that laset prints to the offset marked on the target. How far you have to walk back and forth to make check is up to you, as described above.

2) Presupposes you have no securable rest, no boresighter. You'll benefit from, if not absolutely need, a buddy/partner/spouse/Quato:
-Mark offset on target. Cover with a reflective sticker or secure some other specular reflective material over it. .5" diameter circle or .5" x .5" square; the smaller you can make it, the better. (I've cut pieces off of glo-belts, and there's all manner of reflective tape to find at bike/motorcycle shops and the like)
-Put target at desired/convenient distance. Again, if going for parallel, distance really makes no differance, in and of itself, but 15yd min would be a good idea, given that you're gonna try and bounce a laser off of a reflective surface. More distance is a safety feature for your eyes, with it being given that we're still talking about relatively low-powered lasers.
-With gun benched, aim in on the target with irons and key the aim laser.
-Your goal is to be able to hold target center with sights, and see the laser "splash" off of the reflective material (unless you find another way for your offset point to be visible under the combo of distance and laser light scatter). While you hold, tell your Gunga Din "Left/Right/Up/Down/Steady" as required until the laser is on your desired offset as you hold center with sights. May be some hand-jive going on with this one, given that adjusters might be covered up when you've got your grip.

If you're by yourself, that last will take a bit, but it's perhaps more efficient that burning rounds to see what's what, unless that's one's Thing To Do. Shoot-a-group-and-adjust-repeat method certainly works, too.....

NOTE: If you use reflective material, the reason you go as small as possible is that using, say, a 1" square centered over your offset, the splash you see may be as much as .5" AWAY from your actual offset; the laser will look the same bouncing off a corner as it would appear bouncing off the center of a relatively large reflector. Ergo, make it as small as possible so as to give yourself the best chance of having it "splash" as closely to the actual offset as possible.

[ffhounddog]

What lasers are recommended for carbines?

Laser Dynamics and Crimson trace make some good lasers for carbines.

[ToddG]

I think we need to distinguish between a laser being used as an ADDITIONAL tool or as a primary tool.

I think that's a great distinction, though as you'll see below I may see it a little bit differently...


I think the small hate that I have for lasers is that people in the gunshop sell or recommend them to people who are buying their first gun, who have been shooting like twice in their life and have never taken a class. "Oh, you have trouble pulling the trigger straight to the rear and managing recoil on that ultra compact .380 you just bought? Here, this laser will fix that. It's only $130."

Those people are the ones who may benefit the most from a laser, actually. The person who is never going to practice and never going to learn to use his sights will naturally look at the target under stress and see what? Either nothing (iron sights) or a red dot (laser). I'd opt for the laser.

I've actually put a fair number of people through FOF simulations and run quite a few myself. Well past the point where I was consistently seeing my sights under the stress of something like IDPA Nationals I still wasn't always seeing them in FOF. I honestly believe that a lot more people think they'll see their sights under full-pressure conflict stress than actually have an idea of what "full-pressure conflict stress" really is.

It comes down to a simple reality, then, to echo what I said about the guy who never trains: if you haven't developed your sighted fire to the point where you'll actually see your sights under real stress in a chaotic situation then you're left with index/point shooting (which is certainly effective at times) or you can put a sighting point on the target and use it without effort.


I think it can be a great additional tool, and so I run one on an AR, but I don't like that they are marketed and sold as a "fix-me" for people who really need to learn some basic fundamentals.

If they'll put in the amount of time and effort to build those fundamentals to the point they'll be able to focus on the front sight when someone is trying to kill them, I agree. And I certainly think that's the goal folks who are serious about pistol shooting should have. But a lot of people -- including some who think they're "serious" -- aren't really ever going to get there. So again, it's a choice between unsighted fire and sighted fire.


One problem I do have pistol lasers like the crimson trace type, is that the laser is blocked by my primary hand's straight forefinger, which is off of the trigger...as practiced/trained, my forefinger doesn't engage the trigger (and thereby unblock the laser) until I am "on target". I know I am "on target" because I have either used my sights or am point shooting to get to that moment where I'm on trigger. At that point, the laser is irrelevant, aside from follow-up shots. But, am I really going to switch focus between front sight and target focus in the split between shots?

My draw style makes this less of a problem (my gun is aligning on target with finger moving to the trigger before extension outward begins) but even for someone who uses more of a competition style belly-to-extension draw, the finger is on the trigger as the gun comes into alignment due to index. Either way, you shouldn't be reaching extension with your finger still at register... at least, not if your goal is to get a hit ASAP. If that's not your goal, then the delay, I think, is moot.

Another major disconnect I see when lasers get discussed is the difference between specific proficiency and general proficiency. I've had many-times National Champions tell me they shoot better with irons than lasers... but I'm pretty sure we should expect someone to do better with the thing he's practiced for 10,000 hours compared to the think he's tried for one or two hours.

That's why I think those FOF scenarios mentioned earlier were enlightening. The students were relatively low skilled for the most part (in many cases it was their first formal post-CCW class). So they didn't have a lot more iron sight training than laser sight training. But the guys who took the laser equipped gun into the fun house for the FOF scenarios regularly got far better hits.

When you see people who've got literally hundreds of hours worth of "laser shooting" to their credit, you see it works for them a lot better than the guys who have almost no experience with lasers.

It's like anything else in the shooting world: if you dismiss it because you haven't built up proficiency yet, you're not really evaluating it, you're simply choosing to stick to what you already do well.

[Gadfly]

I have watched folks run lasers at local indoor matches and I almost get motion sick watching that laser jump around.

I can see they have a place, but as mentioned, most folks I have seen are buying them to substitute for practice, and are mounting them on their Taurus or Kel Tec.

I can see the value for the J frame (have handled one, but not shot it) and some smaller pocket pistols with crappy sights (LCP and such). And if I ever buy another 442, I will invest in a set of CT grips for it. I can also see a training/teaching value as folks can have visual feedback of just how much they are jerking the trigger.

The only laser I have tried is the Crimson Trace for the Glock and I HATED it. Bulky, finicky activation, and coming over the top to rack the gun was interfered with by the laser, and my long practiced indexing blocks the dot. I have an M&P fs, and I can see how the laser grips would fit onto the pistol MUCH better than the Glock. But I have not wanted to dump $350 to experiment with a set.

As a cop, our agency bans them. For one, if multiple officers are on scene, it is not easy to discern which red dot is YOUR red dot. I know you can give it a "wiggle" and tell which is yours, but in some fast moving situations, I can see where there would be confusion. Also, with the proliferation of cell phone videos, some lawyers feel that hold folks at gunpoint with little red dots dancing on them would not look good on YouTube. Yet somehow, when we point out guns at the bad guys without lasers, that looks just fine on YouTube...

Just my $.02... As most of you say, I don't like them, but I admittedly have limited exposure to them.

[Tamara]

As most of you say, I don't like them, but I admittedly have limited exposure to them.

I didn't like them before I really gave them a fair try, either.

[Tamara]

What lasers are recommended for carbines?

Y'know, I wish I had better advice for this,m but my lasers-on-long-guns experience is limited.

In the runup to the Midnight 3 Gun Match, CTC was trying to lay a piece of gear on me. "Pick something!" they said. I basically told them "Dudes, I'm already sold on your stuff; I've had your Lasergrip and Lightguard on my CCW gun for more than a year now, and you don't make anything at the moment that I think would work on my 870... If y'all're just dying for me to use something of y'all's on my carbine in the match, I guess that light/laser VFG would fit on my carbine..." halfway hoping they'd tell me they couldn't do it because they were all out of green lasers or something.

One showed up in the mail and I bolted it to my takedown AR. It took some getting used to because I ditched VFGs for C-clamping the gun several years ago, but it seems like a pretty solid piece of hardware. The thing that flummoxed me is that I got very little practice with the laser before the match and what I found myself doing was getting halfway through a fairly close-in target array (the kind of shooting where a laser really shines, IMO) before noticing that there was a green dot floating along slightly below and to the right of my Aimpoint's red one... D'oh! :o It may have just been a reflexive familiarity thing, though, because I didn't have that problem with the SCAR stage gun that had a green laser on it...

I'll note that the absolute high point of the match for me involved the green laser on the FN grenade launcher because that thing was dialed in, and so you could keep your eyes on the Subaru you were about to smack with the marker grenade rather than having to, you know, do all that boring "watch your sights" stuff. :D

[TCinVA]

I believe it was SouthNarc who said that in his AMIS classes he routinely observe that people with lasers tend to get superior accuracy...and this is under FOF conditions, which can be pretty sporty.

As an aiming reference it's a vastly superior arrangement to sights because an aiming reference directly ON the target will always be easier than focusing on a couple of bits of metal between your eye and the target.

Will some people become laser dependent? Sure...but they're the same people who wouldn't be using sights in the first place, especially under stress. They're better off having something rather than nothing.

I have a little more training than the average bear and I've tried a bunch of different sight setups. Nothing I've tried is more efficient as a low-light aiming reference than a visible laser. (IR is a different kettle of fish since you have to be wearing NV, which can be a PITA all its own) Accuracy and speed are much easier with the laser in low light, and I can make shots I couldn't make with tritium or even the slide-mounted RDS guns I've tried. My BUGs (S&W 442, LCP) have CT lasers. My Glock 17 has a CT laser. My P30 doesn't because CT doesn't make one for it.

[feudist]

Are there any lefty friendly lasers?

[Sparks2112]

I know I have an X400 Ultra coming. I've been told it's a green, but, it could be a red. There's some conflict of interest issues that I don't really feel I'm able to get into on an open forum that are going to determine whether or not I get a green one.

Looks like green is a go. I believe, though I'm not 100%, I'll be the first reviewer to have one so I'll make sure to share my thoughts.

[98z28]

Lasers are awesome on defensive pistols. Simple logical progression:

Being able to see the badguy is important
being able to get accurate hits is important
a laser allows you to clearly see the badguy and get accurate hits

Yes, I'm now target focused instead of front sight focused. That's not a bad thing. When I practice on a well lit indoor range, I turn my sweet beamz off and practice with my sights. Because if I can shoot well using sights, using the laser is a piece of cake.

For me at least, that is not completely accurate. If I do not practice with the laser at all, I experience a lot of visual confusion when I finally shoot with the laser on. I will start doing eye sprints from the target to the front sight because I am so used to traking the front sight, but the laser is just begging me to look at the target and look for hits. I suspect many folks do not get past this stage before writing the laser off as a gimmick.

I spend 80-90% of my practice, both dry and live fire, with the laser off. I spend the other 10-20% practicing with the laser on. This has been enough to make the transition between irons and laser seamless. I can present the gun as normal. If the laser appears on the target, I'll use it to drive the gun. If it does not appear, I move focus back to the front sight and carry on.

If you are used to tracking the front sight, driving the gun with the laser requires acclamation. You can't, or at least I can't, track the laser through recoil. You have to rely on a solid index to drive the gun between shots. I suspect we all do this more than we realize, even if we think we are tracking the front sight. The laser just makes it more obvious.

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[nwhpfan]

It's very difficult to shoot an AR with a gas mask on..without a laser. So lasers, IMO have their place. If they made a grip panel mounted one for a lefty and a P2000, and somebody gave me one, I would use it

[TheTrevor]

My biggest problem with pistol lasers is how the majority of the light/laser combo units put the laser below the light. I'm sure that makes manufacturing cheaper when they're making versions with and without a laser, but it sure does kitten things up by introducing excessive distance between laser and bore.

If anyone has experience with the Viridian laser/light units, I'm all ears. Seems to me that I'd rather have the laser lens up close to the rail and offset to one side slightly vs. slung at the bottom of the light lens.

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Viridian-Sub-Compact-Laser-Light-204p8301.htm

[JM Campbell]

Midway has Crimson Trace LG-617 for $169 shipped along with other applications on sale.

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[SGT_Calle]

Midway has Crimson Trace LG-617 for $169 shipped along with other applications on sale.

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I'm trying to wait for the green version myself. CTC has the Gen3 version listed as "coming soon" but no mention of a green Gen4 yet.


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[JMorse]

Looks like green is a go. I believe, though I'm not 100%, I'll be the first reviewer to have one so I'll make sure to share my thoughts.

Please do. Surefire is telling me this is going through some final quality checks and will be released in January, with a very small chance of December if things go really well. I'm very interested in picking one up.

[Clyde from Carolina]

I was slow to get hep to lasers but now I have a CT for a SIG and also my pet J-frame. Should have got with the program years ago.

[ToddG]

If I do not practice with the laser at all, I experience a lot of visual confusion when I finally shoot with the laser on. I will start doing eye sprints from the target to the front sight because I am so used to traking the front sight, but the laser is just begging me to look at the target and look for hits. I suspect many folks do not get past this stage before writing the laser off as a gimmick.

That's very true. I'm always amazed at the number of people who ask me "What are you looking at when using the laser?" The dot! That's what it's there for. I never even think about the iron sights and never take my eyes off the target.


If you are used to tracking the front sight, driving the gun with the laser requires acclamation. You can't, or at least I can't, track the laser through recoil. You have to rely on a solid index to drive the gun between shots. I suspect we all do this more than we realize, even if we think we are tracking the front sight. The laser just makes it more obvious.

There's a lot going on in that sentence:


First, the majority of people who think they are tracking their sights aren't really fully tracking their sights. They might see the sight lift and see it come back onto target... which is exactly what you'd get with a laser in the same situation/recoil. So I'm 100% with you on that and don't really see it as a negative against the laser.
If your recoil control is good enough to keep the dot on the target (or backer or whatever) then tracking is actually easier and I've found it's a decent way to teach someone what tracking is really about. [b]But it's worth pointing out that this doesn't have as much validity in a non-training environment when people are moving, etc.[b/]
Most importantly, your comment that the laser requires acclimation and practice is spot on... pun intended. The #1 problem I see people have with lasers, as mentioned previously, is that they assume their iron sighted skill will automatically translate and that the laser should magically improve them on their first try with no training or practice.




It's very difficult to shoot an AR with a gas mask on..without a laser. So lasers, IMO have their place. If they made a grip panel mounted one for a lefty and a P2000, and somebody gave me one, I would use it

I think this is another important factor in the pistol laser world... the better designs tend not to be lefty-friendly (at least not if you have a high/forward grip technique) and the number of guns for which they're available is limited. Crimson Trace has always been led around by the nose by marketing/print media folks which is why they make five hundred 1911 models and why they'll have green 1911 lasers before they have green Glock/SIG/M&P lasers most likely. The company has made a very purposeful decision to focus on the commercial market: they have grips for the Taurus Judge but not any HK product, for example.

[feudist]

Are the light/laser combos satisfactory? What about the dedicated Pic-rail lasers?

Is the laser functionality worth the trade off from a WML?

Do you run some sort of remote switch with them?

How satisfactory is that as a solution when operating a pistol at speed?

What do you call a paragraph composed of nothing but questions?

[feudist]

Is anyone committed to the laser (on a service pistol) as a primary sight like the red dot on a carbine?

Is the technology there yet?

More questions!

[JM Campbell]

RMR and laser day one....

Dry fire impression: Thats one huge red dot looking through the glass. Laser dot actually helps pick up the rmr dot faster, laser dot visible while leveling the pistol then blooms with rmr dot interesting....live fire this evening.

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[Tamara]

I think this is another important factor in the pistol laser world... the better designs tend not to be lefty-friendly (at least not if you have a high/forward grip technique) and the number of guns for which they're available is limited. Crimson Trace has always been led around by the nose by marketing/print media folks which is why they make five hundred 1911 models and why they'll have green 1911 lasers before they have green Glock/SIG/M&P lasers most likely. The company has made a very purposeful decision to focus on the commercial market: they have grips for the Taurus Judge but not any HK product, for example.

I understand the lack of HK lasers, because they design for common guns and HKs are not terribly common in the grand scheme of things, but I think the Judge laser is their biggest marketing oopsie CTC's made since the Blackhawk lasergrips. Sure Taurus have sold a blue million Judges, but mostly to people who aren't going to sink two bills into Lasergrips.

As to the 1911, the G10 and wood grips just make sense from a marketing standpoint: People in the financial demographic most likely to add a set of lasergrips to their 1911 have either pretty wood grips or rough, grippy G10 ones. I know I wanted a set of Lasergrips on my CCW 1911, but never could bring myself to replace the VZ blasted micarta Gatorbacks on my Pro or CCA gun with the slippery-when-wet LG-401s from my Para LTC9. With my lame grip strength, sticky grips are a big part of what lets me run a 1911.

[lightning fast]

My main experience with lasers has been an Insight M6... Not great. That said, I would love to pick up some CTs or an x400 for a low-light/night match. The only one I attended, people with normal sights got wrecked. People with white lights were the middle of the pack. People with lasers crushed others' scores.

[Crusader8207]

Streamlights TLR-2G has the laser built into the reflector bringing the laser closer to the bore.

[ToddG]

Let's please keep comments on topic and not about what skin color Group A shoots which skin color Group B with what guns. Thank you.

If your post is suddenly deleted, that's why.

[TheTrevor]

Streamlights TLR-2G has the laser built into the reflector bringing the laser closer to the bore.

Good find, thanks. Better setup than most of their combo units, that's for sure!

[Tamara]

Streamlights TLR-2G has the laser built into the reflector bringing the laser closer to the bore.

This is good. Still, its utility is diminished without a "DEVGRU" switch.

If the beam doesn't come on automatically when I grab the gat, it might as well not be there.

[Clyde from Carolina]

Tam, I hate to admit this, but I'm not sure if you are being facetious or if a "Devgru" switch is optimal or not. I am pretty new to the laser thing, so please be gentle. :rolleyes:

[TheTrevor]

This is good. Still, its utility is diminished without a "DEVGRU" switch.

If the beam doesn't come on automatically when I grab the gat, it might as well not be there.

100% agree, though that doesn't negate the utility of switching it to constant-on for range or household social use.

I have a few ideas for triggering the on switch when drawing one of the TL units from a Kydex holster. Definitely going to have to get one and find a sacrificial Blade-Tech to make a prototype.

[Byron]

This is good. Still, its utility is diminished without a "DEVGRU" switch.

If the beam doesn't come on automatically when I grab the gat, it might as well not be there.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004MOIFLG/


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[Tamara]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004MOIFLG/

Yes, that is the optional accessory I described as mandatory. :)

[Byron]

Yes, that is the optional accessory I described as mandatory. :)

I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were lamenting a total lack of said option, not a lack of stock inclusion.


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[GJM]

Not sure what the specs are on the green X400 or CT green offerings, but found this on the Streamlight green laser product description on their web site, last night:

"The green laser used in the TLR-2G will operate within a temperature range of 32°F to 104°F."

If they aren't being very conservative, this is a problem for me.

[Tamara]

"The green laser used in the TLR-2G will operate within a temperature range of 32°F to 104°F."

If they aren't being very conservative, this is a problem for me.

Heck, it's -11°F in Denver right now. :eek:

[Default.mp3]

Not sure what the specs are on the green X400 or CT green offerings, but found this on the Streamlight green laser product description on their web site, last night:

"The green laser used in the TLR-2G will operate within a temperature range of 32°F to 104°F."

If they aren't being very conservative, this is a problem for me.

The Crimson Trace VFG green lasers are rated for 16º F to 120º F, not sure if their LaserGuards and in-coming LaserGrips have the same rating. The LDI DBAL-D2 with the green goes from 14º F to 140º F (can't find numbers on their DBAL I2). Neither are probably low enough for you, I'm guessing. Wonder what the Surefires are able to do; maybe Sparks2112 will be able to test it out with his T&E unit. Their brochure claims "far superior reliability over a wide temperature range", since they don't use a second harmonic generation, which is the usual means to get a green laser, but no hard numbers out there yet. My SWAG is, since they don't use second harmonic generation, the new Surefire greens would be about as temperature sensitive and power efficient as their red counterparts, which would be pretty cool if it turns out to be true.

[Tamara]

The Crimson Trace VFG green lasers are rated for 16º F to 120º F, not sure if their LaserGuards and in-coming LaserGrips have the same rating.

Tuesday's high here in Indy is supposed to be 14°F. I think I'll take the MVF-515 out and test it that night when we're down in single digits. :cool:

[Chuck Whitlock]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004MOIFLG/


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Also available for the M&P:

http://www.streamlight.com/documents/brochures/TLRAccessoriesChart.pdf

[NETim]

Are there any lefty friendly lasers?

Just received my CT "Master Series" G10's today for the 1911. Since a trip to the dentist this AM left half my face MIA, I took the day off just because. Perfect timing.

I haven't fired the gun, carried the gun or any of that other fun stuff, but limited dry firing at home in the semi-dark basement indicates to me anyway, that this system is lefty friendly. In fact, when working WHO, my RH trigger finger interferes with the beam unless I place it high on the ejection port. Lying it alongside the frame blocks the beam very effectively. With the finger on the trigger, no issues. SHO, no issues at all. Two-handed, likewise no issues with beam blockage.

No interference with the VMII either.

Thus far the only con is that the safety is slightly more difficult to snick back "on." The laser housing interferes with my thumb slightly.

The CT G10 texture I think will be friendly to CCW, i.e., they're not too aggressive. As a comparision, my VZ OP II's are NOT CCW friendly. In my opinion, they're much too aggressive for daily carry. (Their Frags are perfect IMHO.) I had a set of Wilson factory G10's on this gun and they were great for CCW since the diamonds are more of a suggestion than an actuality.

If I find the CT's chewing on me after extended wear time, knocking down the points on diamonds on the CT would be a piece of cake, as it is with any other G10 stocks.

"Master Series" stocks on a "Professional." I feel like NASCAR. :)

[nalesq]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004MOIFLG/


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The problem with the Streamlight version of the Surefire DG switch (at least the one made for the Glock) is that the Streamlight version is 1) much easier - too easy, in my opinion -to accidentally activate, and 2) it is much bulkier. In fact, the main reason I switched over from Streamlight to Surefire pistol mounted light products is because of the vastly superior Surefire DG switch.

[Sparks2112]

Well we'll find out how the Surefire green works in the cold...it's going down to 9 here on Monday.

[Tamara]

Also available for the M&P:

http://www.streamlight.com/documents/brochures/TLRAccessoriesChart.pdf

My other M&P 9, the one with the Deltapoint, has a TLR-1S on it. I may have to get that switch for Christmas...

(I know nalesq says it sucks, but I'm willing to give it a whirl...)

[TheTrevor]

If the beam doesn't come on automatically when I grab the gat, it might as well not be there.

I was checking out the Viridian laser/light modules tonight and it looks like they've done something interesting: the latest version of the modules are designed to be turned on when you draw from a holster molded in such a way as to trigger the external switch. Seems like they've even managed to get a decent selection of holster makers to participate, though of COURSE they don't have anything for HKs.

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/products/tacloc/

Interesting to note that the light lens on the combo unit is substantially larger than the one shown on the HKparts.net listing. Methinks the HKparts guys just used the photo for the laser-only unit for both laser and laser+light. Pity, as I was hoping that someone had engineered a nice small refractive optics package to spread the LED beam instead of a bulky reflector bowl.

[Tamara]

I was checking out the Viridian laser/light modules tonight and it looks like they've done something interesting: the latest version of the modules are designed to be turned on when you draw from a holster molded in such a way as to trigger the external switch. Seems like they've even managed to get a decent selection of holster makers to participate, though of COURSE they don't have anything for HKs.

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/products/tacloc/

Hey, the button on that holster is even closer in line with the trigger than the one on the Serpa!

[Default.mp3]

Interesting to note that the light lens on the combo unit is substantially larger than the one shown on the HKparts.net listing. Methinks the HKparts guys just used the photo for the laser-only unit for both laser and laser+light. Pity, as I was hoping that someone had engineered a nice small refractive optics package to spread the LED beam instead of a bulky reflector bowl.

I think you're confusing the X5L with the C5L. The C5L has the same footprint as the C5, as far as I can tell, while the X5L is much bulkier.

[JMorse]

I'm reading the reviews on the Veridian X5L on Amazon, and am seeing a lot of people complaining about quality issues with the mount. Anyone here have both it and the Surefire X400 ultra in red and can compare quality for me?

[DocGKR]

Surefire is much higher quality.

[JMorse]

I assumed that was the case. Thanks for the input. I guess the Surefire is a no-brainer if cost isn't an issue. I do worry about what people have said here about it being too bright though.

[Tamara]

I'm reading the reviews on the Veridian X5L on Amazon, and am seeing a lot of people complaining about quality issues with the mount. Anyone here have both it and the Surefire X400 ultra in red and can compare quality for me?

I don't need "Can HALO jump with it over the Hindu Kush" toughness, but it needs to at least be rugged and reliable enough to stand up to gun school, range use, daily carry, and the occasional match.

At the moment, for lights and lasers on pistols, if it's not from Surefire, Streamlight, or CTC, I don't really consider it. I've been burned by early adopting and shopping on price too many times in the past.

I'm sure other manufacturers will join them at some point but I'll let other people do the vetting now.

[AtomicToaster]

Are there any lefty friendly lasers?

CT Laserguard, if they make on for your gun. If you don't mind a rail-mounted unit that isn't the "instictive-activation" type, I like the Viridian C5 or C5L. In either case, though, you'll need a special holster.

I'm also interested in anything else that might be out there for lefties that doesn't change the profile of the gun for holster purposes.

EDIT: Oops; didn't see the earlier reply.

[feudist]

Any experience with the CTC Laserguards?

Specifically the green Glock model?

[Tamara]

Any experience with the CTC Laserguards?

I've been using their Lightguard on my carry gun for over a year now and haven't broken it yet, if that's any help.

[feudist]

Tam, that looks like it has the same form factor as the laser.

Are you satisfied with the ergos, especially the remote switch?

[Tamara]

Tam, that looks like it has the same form factor as the laser.

Are you satisfied with the ergos, especially the remote switch?

I think CTC's execution works great on the M&P and not as great on the G-lock. YMMV.

[Shawn.L]

having just gotten done not posting in a thread on a local forum where a poster was explaining how a BG seeing a dot on them would make them piss their pants I feel compelled to post here.....

I shit talked lasers back when I had a few hours of formal instruction, thought I knew something, and heard some blow hards shit talk lasers that i could parrot with authority.

why? Because I ddint know wtf I was talking about and felt the need to say it anyway.

years later, with more experience, and a more open mind the narc man strapped a X500 on one of my T guns and sent me hunting in the dark during AMIS. I found it distracting. Id mount the gun and instead of seeing my sights there was lights and lasers, there was too much visually different for me to process esp while trying deal with a aggressive determined adversary. I pulled it right back off the gun and went back to work with my night sights in comfort.

more time passed....

I picked up a 442 used and it had CT grips on it..... I figured sure, why not, Id give it a try. Now? Well now I dont put them on everything but I do enjoy them on the 442 A LOT, and find them much easier to use on that gun with its non existent nub sights than without, and I got another set on my 22 snubby too.

I also used to poo poo the MRDS on pistols.... now Im carrying a chopped 17 with an RMR...

Ive come to really appreciate alternate sighting methods. But I needed a base on which use them first, an open mind, and enough skill to take advantage of the benefits and not be overcome by the difficulties involved.

why all the hate? because most people come from where I first came from. just enough knowledge to be dangerous and not enough skill and experience to know any better. couple that with the urge to feel right about something, whether that be a method of reloading or politics and you have the basic human condition: not knowing what you dont know, and needing to proclaim your ignorance on those around you.

[VW.45]

Lazarus post! Save your money on the viridian, f**king junk! The laser on mine shit the bed in less than 500 rounds. It was great,when it was working.

[voodoo_man]

Lazarus post! Save your money on the viridian, f**king junk! The laser on mine shit the bed in less than 500 rounds. It was great,when it was working.

Yeah I'd skip the viridan, as per my review, it's not duty grade.

Testing the tlr2g hl now.

[BillSWPA]

I first got into lasers for my tiny pocket guns such as a North American Arms .380 or Kel-Tec .32 or .380. Most of these have few, if any, options for improving the sights other than the relatively recent possibility of adding a laser. I find that I can see my red lasers under all indoor light conditions, but can only see them outdoors at night, or close to dawn or dusk. However, under conditions wherein I can see them, they enhance my accuracy considerably with these tiny guns.

For a gun the size of a Glock 26 or larger, as long as I can see both the laser and the sights, the laser provides little advantage in shooting accurately. However, we have two recent threads discussing sights, making it clear that sight visibility varies considerably, and the laser is often very easy to see when the sights are not.

For those of us who wear glasses or contact lenses, consider the possibility of losing the glasses or contacts in a fight, or the possibility that you will not have time to grab the glasses or contacts if something bad happens while you are asleep. As long as you can correctly identify your target and whether you have a safe shot, the laser becomes very helpful, which is why I have one on the 1911 in the lock box by my bed (along with a handheld light).

All of my present lasers are Crimson Trace, and I find them to be quite comfortable on all the guns on which they have been installed, with the exception of my Glock 26. I found that, due to the size and shape of my hand relative to the grip, the activation button was under one of the joints of my middle finger, making activation highly uncertain. I decided I was better off without the laser on my Glocks.

Regarding practice, almost all is with iron sights only once the laser is sighted in. In a defensive situation, i would simply use whichever sight system becomes visible first.