Anybody require background checks for students?

[jlw]

I was talking with another instructor today about doing private training. He mentioned that he had been booked to teach a class by a third party. Turns out that one of the students that booked the class through that same third party turned out to be a convicted felon.

It got me to thinking about how other instructors handle any kind of safeguards or background checks, etc.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Just require a CCW/CHL and problem is solved, if you are that worried.

[Josh Runkle]

We require CCW/CHL or background check or "permission of instructor". Basically, it's our way of requiring a background check for anyone we don't know.

[Dagga Boy]

We usually want a CHL or a known entity.

[Kyle Reese]

When I've attended training with Tiger Swan, the application for training included a release authorizing them to conduct a background check. This was in 2010- not sure if it's the case today.

[EricP]

The Sig Sauer Academy requires either a release for a background check or a copy of your CCW.

[LtDave]

Front Sight requires one and makes you pay $50 for the privilege. They also robocall you after you attend.

[Casual Friday]

A little thread drift here but on another forum a LEO told about executing an arrest warrant on a convicted felon. After they entered, they found plenty of guns and concealment holsters, but also range logs, training videos and books by Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, and others. They even found evidence that this guy had taken training courses over the years even after earning his felon status. Kinda made me rethink my position at the time that all criminals are stupid and hold their guns sideways. I can definitely understand an instructor or school running background checks.

[Totem Polar]

I'm no guru, but I would definitely want some sort of check. Every weekend cert I've ever picked up over the years required a current CCW, and that includes instructors from name to local hero. In addition to criminality, probably want to make sure that you're not training someone who gave up US citizenship for, say, Saudi or something–or any foreigner. Stranger things have happened.

[Al T.]

Slightly off track, but ITARs (IIRC) limits who you can train to US citizens. Pat Rogers has discussed this elsewhere and while prosecutions are probably very low, it is an issue.

I've always presented either .mil ID or my CWP to the training coordinator.

[Slavex]

Up here in Canada we are lucky, if they have a gun, they have a licence and have been cleared by our government. Of course that means no criminals or bad guys can get licences right? Oh wait. Which is why when I teach an organized group class I pass the names through LEO friends to check on the possible shitrat status of attendees. My weekly open classes I don't have that luxury however, but I do make it well known that police frequent the class and that seems to be enough to keep the criminal element away, at least as far as I know.

[jlw]

As to the idea of presentation of a license/permit, that is moot if teaching a class to meet a training requirement in order to get a license/permit is it not?

I did an NRA Basic Pistol class for some folks seeking to get a permit from another state. All of the students were people that I knew personally; so, it wasn't an issue for me, but it could be an issue for others.

Also, my state does not require a GWCL to carry a weapon on one's on property, place of business, or in their vehicle. "Long guns" also do not require a GWCL. Someone simply wanting to take something like a home defense shotgun may not ever get a carry license.

[jetfire]

When I was teaching, I'd also go the CCW license route.

[David Armstrong]

As to the idea of presentation of a license/permit, that is moot if teaching a class to meet a training requirement in order to get a license/permit is it not?

I did an NRA Basic Pistol class for some folks seeking to get a permit from another state. All of the students were people that I knew personally; so, it wasn't an issue for me, but it could be an issue for others.

Also, my state does not require a GWCL to carry a weapon on one's on property, place of business, or in their vehicle. "Long guns" also do not require a GWCL. Someone simply wanting to take something like a home defense shotgun may not ever get a carry license.
When I teach the CHL it is open to all comers. If they want their CHL then the State gets to run a check on them, I just provide the training. When doing advanced classes I require a letter from their local LE if it isn't someone I know or can verify otherwise.

[Tamara]

Awerbuck wanted a copy of my toter's permit... which I then proceeded to leave in the copier at Kinko's. *bows graciously* :o

[ST911]

Most open enrollment courses I've attended wanted a copy of my CCW. They have a strange amount of credibility, given the ease with which many can be made at home and the rarity of their verification.

[ToddG]

I find this discussion very interesting. In well into my second thousand of hours of formal training as a student from dozens of different instructors, I think Blackwater is the only place that ever wanted any kind of documentation and that was to verify US citizenship (due to ITAR). Off the top of my head I do not remember ever being asked to provide a copy of my CCW license, nor would I as it provides personal information that is absolutely none of the instructor's business.

Not everyone has a carry permit -- there are quite a few people living in states where acquiring such a permit is difficult or even impossible -- and not everyone lives in a locale where the CLEO is going to sign off on something like this.

If a prohibited person shows up to a class, the prohibited person is the one breaking the law.

[Tamara]

I find this discussion very interesting. In well into my second thousand of hours of formal training as a student from dozens of different instructors...

In how many of those classes did you just enroll cold as John Q. Student and how many were you invited to audit the class? (I mean, if someone is a known quantity, it renders the requirement somewhat superfluous.)

[ToddG]

In how many of those classes did you just enroll cold as John Q. Student and how many were you invited to audit the class? (I mean, if someone is a known quantity, it renders the requirement somewhat superfluous.)

Far more the former than the latter. Quite a lot of those training hours were before anyone knew me well enough to offer me an audit slot.

edited to add: More to the point, I don't believe the other students were required to provide background information, either.

[jlw]

Not everyone has a carry permit -- there are quite a few people living in states where acquiring such a permit is difficult or even impossible -- and not everyone lives in a locale where the CLEO is going to sign off on something like this.



Above I addressed folks in my state not necessarily needing a license. Of note to the quoted passage, here GWCLs are issued by the Probate Court, and GA is shall issue unless the applicant is a "prohibited person" by law.

[Tamara]

Far more the former than the latter. Quite a lot of those training hours were before anyone knew me well enough to offer me an audit slot.

edited to add: More to the point, I don't believe the other students were required to provide background information, either.
I dunno if it's more an Old Skool boilerplate thing or what. Nosing around teh internets, I found this at the MAG site (http://massadayoobgroup.com/classes/):

Due to the nature of our instruction, it is necessary to provide us with one or more of the following when registering for all classes:
a. Current State Issued Permit to carry a concealed handgun
b. Current FFL – Federal Firearms License
c. Current FOID Card (Illinois Residents only)
d. Current Police or Military ID
e. Other current proof of clean criminal record. Most sheriff’s departments will run these for you at a nominal fee, done routinely in many occupations
Similar at Thunder Ranch (http://www.thunderranchinc.com/application.html), and YFA (http://www.yfainc.com/admin.html) has "each person will be asked to provide the class coordinator with some information and proof of good character indicating that the individual is legally able to possess the firearm that is the subject matter of the training. Law enforcement and military/government participants will be asked to show appropriate credentials and identification. Civilians may use a valid state concealed carry permit or self-requested criminal background check."

Not having much of a training resume, I'd just ass-u-me'd it was like that everywhere. :o

It would not at all shock me to find out that it's "Well, they did it this way at Gunsite..."

[ToddG]

I took an Awerbuck class years ago and I am almost 100% certain no "proof of goodness" was provided beyond my shooting partner's verbal description of my background. I never even talked to the class coordinator before the first day of class.

[Tamara]

I took an Awerbuck class years ago and I am almost 100% certain no "proof of goodness" was provided beyond my shooting partner's verbal description of my background. I never even talked to the class coordinator before the first day of class.

I didn't have to in '10, but I did in '09...

(Well, to clarify, Shootin' Buddy handled the class registration and asked me for the copy. What with him having been to a buttload of Louis classes, I just figured he knew the drill.)

[Default.mp3]

I did not have to show any documentation for when I took pistol courses with Larry Vickers (nor for ECQC, AFHF, or my course with Kenan Flasowski). When I spoke to Paul Howe (CSAT), he stated that having of gone through a Vickers course would be credentials enough to waive the need for a CHL (I didn't have one at the time); on the other hand, Pat Rogers (EAG) explicitly stated that I must have my CHL, and that my experience with Larry Vickers would not suffice. The current Magpul Dynamics application page for civies not in LE that you need to send a copy of your CHL or else have a letter of good character/criminal background check from an LE agency.

[ST911]

Has anyone used the LE letter of reference/verification that some accept? What was your experience with the agency?

[Drang]

So, 'way back when I was helping teach an NRA Home Firearms Safety class for the Boeing Employee's Rifle and Pistol Club. Two of the students had accents, which we didn't think twice about, 'cuz 'Murica!
After we were done with Lesson Four, the Hands On Firearm Safety Demonstration, said Students With Accents mentioned that they were Canadian Subjects waiting for the Washington State Attorney General's office to process their Alien Firearms Licenses, required under Washington State law for any non- US citizen to TOUCH a firearm.
We about had kittens.
Naturally, when they showed up for the Basic Pistol course a month later we made sure they had their AFLs...

[overton]

Does every firearms class nowadays fall under ITAR?

[Casual Friday]

Does every firearms class nowadays fall under ITAR?

I'm curious as well since Gunsite has had King Abdullah II from Jordan in their classes on a few occasions. Maybe the "King" part of his name trumps ITAR??

[Tom Givens]

ITAR doesn't apply to military or police of friendly foreign governments on official business. That would include the King.

[Tamara]

Does every firearms class nowadays fall under ITAR?

I'd say that depends on whether or not someone was looking for a reason to prosecute you.

"A government of laws, not of men," is such a quaint notion.

[ToddG]

I'd say that depends on whether or not someone was looking for a reason to prosecute you.

This.

ITAR is very poorly worded. However, by intent it is supposed to cover military training and in 'Murica there are lots of things people are allowed to do with guns that aren't military-esque. Teaching open-source material that is not specifically military in application is usually considered safe from ITAR. But of course that is done at your own risk...

[Slavex]

Friendly military and police still have to fill out ITAR paperwork to enter the USA to take such courses. American instructors might not see or even know about that.

[Joseph B.]

No I have not done any background checks, and it’s interesting to me that a convicted felon would sign up for a class. I require a registration form that has a declaration that covers federal/state law and ITAR, as well as hoodlums. But no I have never really entertained the idea for open enrollment.

Questions: It was explained to me that having a declaration (i.e. I have not been convicted of a felony or domestic violence, and I am a citizen or visa holder) that it excludes me from any legal action, as long as I do not provide any ammunition or firearms. Is this correct? Has anyone run into any issues contrary, heard of a trainer being jerked around for someone who is a convict attending a course? Outside of ITAR or making ammunition/firearms available, is there any legal liabilities?

[Drang]

Bit of a necro-post here...

ITAR is very poorly worded. However, by intent it is supposed to cover military training and in 'Murica there are lots of things people are allowed to do with guns that aren't military-esque. Teaching open-source material that is not specifically military in application is usually considered safe from ITAR. But of course that is done at your own risk...
It was just pointed out to me that the NRA has decided to use an abundance of caution on this topic, and the login page for NRA INstructors now has the following disclaimer:

NRA cannot provide any assistance in training foreign persons due to conflicting information from the U.S. Government regarding regulations pertinent to foreign persons and arms training. NRA cannot process any requests for assistance in training foreign persons. In view of the above, we regret to inform you that NRA cannot renew NRA firearm trainer credentials for any foreign national.
In glowing, flashing red letters.

[Tamara]

It was just pointed out to me that the NRA has decided to use an abundance of caution on this topic...

Given certain other actions by the current administration, I think that's an extremely wise course of action.