Revolvers, are they still relevant?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Being one of only two officers on my department that even shoots the wheel gun, I find myself asking - are revolvers still relevant?

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

Caleb over at Gun Nuts had a pretty good post on this recently:

http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/10/11/revolvers-are-obsolete/

[WDW]

IMO, no, not for duty use. They're heavier, have less capacity, slower to reload, mechanically more complicated, & harder to clear when a malfunction occurs. Many will disagree, but what I posted is indisputable fact, like it or not.

[gtmtnbiker98]

IMO, no, not for duty use. They're heavier, have less capacity, slower to reload, mechanically more complicated, & harder to clear when a malfunction occurs. Many will disagree, but what I posted is indisputable fact, like it or not.

I agree in terms of primary, but in general as a defensive tool, are they still relevant (i.e. BUG, HD, etc.)?

[Casual Friday]

For me, no, they are no longer relevant as a revolver can not fill any role in my self defense needs that a semi auto can't fill even better.

[WDW]

Revolvers can be used very effectively in a defensive role. One must merely accept their limitations. If somebody wants to carry a wheel gun & feels it's the best choice for them, more power to them. Everything I've said is merely my lowly opinion & my views towards carrying a defensive firearm. I do believe the J frame fills the bug niche in a manner no auto can though.

[Joseph B.]

The only real advantage I personally see with a revolver is not having magazine springs go bad with long term storage when kept loaded. Outside of that, everything else seems to be a disadvantage when comparison is made to a modern reliable semi auto. The only other aspect would be need for a large caliber pistol, say running around the wilderness of Alaska, the big bore revolvers would probably offer some advantages, etc.

Relevance would be situational and individual dependent.

$.02

[Lon]

The only real advantage I personally see with a revolver is not having magazine springs go bad with long term storage when kept loaded.

$.02

Good magazines don't go bad with long term storage. I have magazines that stay loaded for YEARS. They still work.

[Joseph B.]

Good magazines don't go bad with long term storage. I have magazines that stay loaded for YEARS. They still work.

My experience is different, but okay. What is a "good" magazine and what would be a "bad" magazine? When do you find out your carry magazine is bad? I rotate and replace often b/c I've had all types of magazines go bad. I actually just re-springed two of my G 19 mags b/c they were getting soft, could hear the rounds starting to get loose/rattle in the mag. Did they still "work" sure, will I bet my life they would have continued to work? Obviously not...

[Chuck Haggard]

For use as a duty or primary carry weapon? Not really.

But above and below the service pistol job, when you get into BUGs or large frame magnum revolvers, IMHO the wheelgun does a better job than semi auto pistols you might use for those same jobs.

I have never found a .380 or pocket 9mm as reliable as a J frame, and guns like the Desert Eagle are basically a bad joke compared to a N frame S&W.

[Drang]

...are revolvers still relevant?

Paging Jerry Miculek...

Define "relevant."

Remember, "the best self-defense gun is the one you have with you."

[Tamara]

For use as a duty or primary carry weapon? Not really.

But above and below the service pistol job, when you get into BUGs or large frame magnum revolvers, IMHO the wheelgun does a better job than semi auto pistols you might use for those same jobs.

I have never found a .380 or pocket 9mm as reliable as a J frame, and guns like the Desert Eagle are basically a bad joke compared to a N frame S&W.

^^This stuff.

That said, if someone used a magic disappear-o-ray on all my self-loaders, I'd shrug, load up a Smith roundgun, and carry on.

[Chuck Haggard]

^^This stuff.

That said, if someone used a magic disappear-o-ray on all my self-loaders, I'd shrug, load up a Smith roundgun, and carry on.

Yeah, it wouldn't be the end of the world if ALL I had was my 681 and 642.

[Totem Polar]

I think the esteemed gentleman above me pretty much ended the "pre-derail" portion of the thread, but that obviously doesn't stop things around here, so... they're definitely relevant for me. Wheelies outnumber autos in my safe for sure.
That said, I took a class (terminal ballistics: autopsy reports, shooting car doors, glass and hoods, etc) today and took the old 9mm along, despite my deep love of S&W wheel guns. Go figure.

[Joseph B.]

For use as a duty or primary carry weapon? Not really.

But above and below the service pistol job, when you get into BUGs or large frame magnum revolvers, IMHO the wheelgun does a better job than semi auto pistols you might use for those same jobs.

I have never found a .380 or pocket 9mm as reliable as a J frame, and guns like the Desert Eagle are basically a bad joke compared to a N frame S&W.

I agree and well stated. My grandfather has had the same S&W model 10 in his night stand for longer than I've been alive, probably the same ammo as well, but I am willing to bet its more than relevant for its intended use. Try getting an 88 year old retired SGM to the range with a pistol he only looks at to clean/oil once a year. Not going to happen.

My 65year old mom keeps a S&W 686 (was my dads) loaded in her bedroom. It was that or a shotgun, as she was not going to the range and not going to properly maintain it.

In both situations I think revolvers are very good options and more than relevant.

[BLR]

I find it interesting (academically, anyway, as I have no interest in caliber arguments) that most of the discussions like this just assume 9mm is equivalent to all other handgun rounds. Not weighing in on that one way or the other, just observing.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

I find it interesting (academically, anyway, as I have no interest in caliber arguments) that most of the discussions like this just assume 9mm is equivalent to all other handgun rounds. Not weighing in on that one way or the other, just observing.
Wow. Passive-aggressive much? :p

[BLR]

Wow. Passive-aggressive much? :p

Not really. More condescending, arrogant ass. ;)

With just a touch of elitism.

[BN]

They aren't as relevant now as they used to be. However they are very relevant now in IDPA, where it's a bunch of fun to beat up on the auto loaders. :)

I would rather carry a Glock, but if I had to carry only a revolver, I would holster my Model 10, encircle my waist with speed loaders and feel pretty safe. I would be in the market for a K-Frame 357 though. ;) I'd probably have a J-Frame or two somewhere about my person also.

[Tamara]

If I had to carry a K, I'd carry my 547 just to tweak 1911guy. :D

[Chuck Haggard]

If I had to carry a K, I'd carry my 547 just to tweak 1911guy. :D

Why does it not shock me that you have one of those?



9mm vs anything;


Modern 9mm loadings are as good as, or better than, almost all of the old school "manstoppers", including the much vaunted 125gr .357mag, 158gr LSWCHP .38special "FBI" load, and any of the factory .44 specials and .45 Colt loads a copper would have carried back then.

But that still doesn't irrelevate (Yes, that is too a word, I just invented it....) revolvers nowadays.

[Nephrology]

I find my J frame can be carried anywhere. I have not yet owned a semi-auto where that is the case. To be fair, I have not yet purchased a single stack 9mm. I still prefer to carry my Glock 19 or 26 all else being equal.

If I had to move back to CT (10rd mag cap) I would probably keep my Model 19 as my bedside gun (that is, until I got the money together for a M&P45...)

[CCT125US]

I find a J works well when mowing and trimming. Three rounds of JHP and two rounds of snake shot. So far the 2 rounds of snake shot have proved more useful.

[jetfire]

They way I like to think about is that revolvers are still "relevant" in that they still shoot bullets. So they can be used for self-defense. They can even be used effectively if a person is willing to put in the time and effort to shoot them well.

But, a modern semi-automatic handgun like a Glock or an M&P is almost universally going to be a "better" choice for self defense for the large majority of shooters.

I carry a wheelgun every day. But I don't trick myself into thinking that my 640 is somehow magically better than a Glock 26, because it's not.

[Totem Polar]

I carry a wheelgun every day. But I don't trick myself into thinking that my 640 is somehow magically better than a Glock 26, because it's not.

It's better; just because you carry it every day.

[jetfire]

I actually had a conversation with Todd about just that. I switched back to carrying a wheelgun because I got burned out shooting guns that don't interest me; and I genuinely enjoy shooting wheelguns. I'm a lot more likely to hit the range for a practice session with a gun I like to shoot than I am if I'm carrying another nondescript flat-black people popper.

[Totem Polar]

I totally get that.
:cool:

[Tamara]

I actually had a conversation with Todd about just that. I switched back to carrying a wheelgun because I got burned out shooting guns that don't interest me; and I genuinely enjoy shooting wheelguns. I'm a lot more likely to hit the range for a practice session with a gun I like to shoot than I am if I'm carrying another nondescript flat-black people popper.

I have a nice Evyl Robot rayskin holster for my Colt 1903*. Stop talking like that.

(Which, incidentally, has been absolutely reliable thus far. Other than the grip panels, every part including the springs on that gun are 109 years old.)

[JodyH]

My J frames may not be the best in theory, but often are in the realities of daily life.
So yup... they're still relevant.

[Nephrology]

My J frames may not be the best in theory, but often are in the realities of daily life.
So yup... they're still relevant.

This reminds me... I need more than one J frame.

[jetfire]

I have a nice Evyl Robot rayskin holster for my Colt 1903*. Stop talking like that.

(Which, incidentally, has been absolutely reliable thus far. Other than the grip panels, every part including the springs on that gun are 109 years old.)

There was a dude who shot a 1903 Colt (with the 3.75 inch barrel) at the IDPA BUG Nationals. He didn't win the match, but he won ALL the style points.

[gtmtnbiker98]

My J frames may not be the best in theory, but often are in the realities of daily life.
So yup... they're still relevant.
Pretty much my summation, as well.

[Totem Polar]

This reminds me... I need more than one J frame.

Wait... you mean you don't have more than one J frame?


http://www.chicagonow.com/the-vast-wasteland/files/2012/02/archer-edited.jpg

[TGS]

Pretty much my summation, as well.

I agree with JodyH as well.

And, well, you too. It's a really good summation, actually.

I haven't found super subcompact autos to be terribly reliable....at least not the ones in 380 or larger. I think the old Mauser M1914 and Mauser HSc are awesome pistols, as long as you're willing to use a 32 ACP.

If you go larger, such as a Walther PPS.....it's a great pistol, but in practical use is not the same footprint to work with as a J-frame. A J-frame just disappears (both in sight and in mind) compared to similarly sized autos.

So, are revolvers still relevant? Quantitatively, no....an auto beats it on paper. Qualitatively, they absolutely have their place.

The caveat to that is my opinion that most people who carry J-frames because they think they need to are only kidding themselves. They could carry a Walther PPS instead and still not notice it's there, which from owning both I'd rate the PPS as a much better shooting platform. Even leaving out all the capacity and reload arguments, I felt the PPS was incredibly easy to put rounds on target very quickly, with little effort. It's the sub-compact that shoots like a service pistol. But yeah, if you're looking for a BUG, NPE gun, or clipped-on sweatpants gun like JodyH mentioned in Anatomy of a Lounge-Around Gun (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7614-anatomy-of-a-lounge-around-gun), a J-frame can be really hard to beat.

[rsa-otc]

I can't believe you guys sucked me into this argument, I usually stay out of these Revolver vs Auto debates.

My take, since below are the arguments you usually hear in these discussions:


IMO, no, not for duty use.
They're heavier, Depends on what you are comparing them against; today's Tupperware most definitely, 1911 or other all metal auto's it can go either way depending on the model.

have less capacity, No argument here

slower to reload, Again depends on your experience and training, I've been shooting both for about 20 years, My reloads between the two platforms are about the same. Now I put more time in on the wheely, so it could be said that if I concentrated on the semi auto those reloads will be faster, then again I bet if I concentrate my time on the revolver I could shave some time off there as well. I know that the semi auto will ultimately be faster, my point is the difference is not all that much.

mechanically more complicated, Again what are you comparing it to? Striker Fired guns, yes they have less parts. But in any hammer fired weapon I bet there is as many parts in those as there are in your S&W revolver, During the H&K 45 test Todd remarked on the difficulty in servicing that platform.

harder to clear when a malfunction occurs. Sorry but with the proper training not the case. Even the horrid spent casing under the extractor can be cleared quickly if you know what you are doing. In fact the revolver is easier to handle the most common failure the dud round. there are no stove pipes, double feeds etc. In my experience any malfunction that will mechanically take out a revolver, the equivalent will down an auto as well.

Many will disagree, but what I posted is indisputable fact, like it or not.

The only indisputable fact here is that revolvers hold less rounds and you need to reload more often. Last weekend I shot a IDPA club match of 28 shooters with quite a few shooters at my classification (expert). I took 4th place overall with my revolver, as well as most accurate. I had 4 more reloads compared to the 1911 shooters and 5 more compared to the rest. When you adjust the results for the extra reloads I would have been 2nd to a sponsored pro shooter who spends a whole lot more time practicing than I do. And to be frank I shot it wearing the equivalent to a cast on my left ankle. This is my usual results shooting against folks at my level.

What is the common advice to someone who wants to improve their trigger control - "get a double action revolver".

While I give the nod to the auto due to it's higher capacity all the rest is just "bunk"; my usual advise to folks is to carry what you shoot best and for some that's the venerable revolver. The fact is I carry a revolver on duty (for many legal and logistical reasons) and I am comfortable doing so.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Welcome RSA, what took so long? Healthy exchanges in this thread, I must say.

[NETim]

http://frontiernet.net/~netim/66sparks.jpg

[rsa-otc]

http://frontiernet.net/~netim/66sparks.jpg

Now that's just sexy right there.

[feudist]

Now that's just sexy right there.

Which butt?

Sorry.:o

[rsa-otc]

Which butt?

Sorry.:o

:p

[NETim]

Now that's just sexy right there.

It's one of those crudely fashioned 66-1's riding in a VM-II.

[Tamara]

Wait... you mean you don't have more than one J frame?


http://www.chicagonow.com/the-vast-wasteland/files/2012/02/archer-edited.jpg

I know, right?

I keep forgetting that the whole "Guns. Lots of guns." scene in The Matrix wasn't just "Tuesday morning" for most people, the way it is for others. ;)

[Nephrology]

Wait... you mean you don't have more than one J frame?


http://www.chicagonow.com/the-vast-wasteland/files/2012/02/archer-edited.jpg

I don't. It is something I am looking to change.

[Chuck Haggard]

I know, right?

I keep forgetting that the whole "Guns. Lots of guns." scene in The Matrix wasn't just "Tuesday morning" for most people, the way it is for others. ;)

Sad isn't it?

I feel bad for the less fortunate kids.

[Tamara]

Sad isn't it?

I feel bad for the less fortunate kids.

I just can't bring myself to waste gun money on silly frivolities like 'food' or 'clothing' the way others do. ;)

[JonInWA]

I think revolvers are relevant in the sense that they're certainly a viable self-defense/woods gun-within reason, and with awareness of their limitations. Reloading and repeated trigger pulls/accuracy require more training/familiarization/practice/skills to obtain results comparable to, say, a modern polymer-framed autopistol-and then you've got the limited amount of on-board ammunition. A "service" revolver (which I'll loosely describe as one with a 4" barrel, and at least 6 round capacity) will be heavier than most comparable service autopistols, but will likely be more inherently accurate and less expensive.

A problem with the ultra-light revolvers is that the recoil forces can literally separate unfired cartridge's bullets from the cartridge body, and concurrently tie up the revolver mechanically. Not good. They're also a pain in the....hand...to practice with, and if with smaller grips controllability can be drastically compromised. A good holster and belt combination ameliorates the weight/comfort/concealment concerns for me, rendering my 4" service revolvers acceptable for concealed carry.

At the end of my particular day, the only revolvers I possess are service-length ones, with steel frames. I personally trust, and use a compact or sub-compact Glock as a much more palatable alternative than a snub J-frame.

On the other hand, there's something sheerly enjoyable about using and mastering a good revolver-kinda like that 1911 thing...

But if I'm headed into an environment where I feel that the limitations of the revolver cannot be sufficiently addressed/controlled (which are most/most of the time), it'll be a Glock kinda day for me. It's hard to beat the advantages of a reliable, weather impervious, low maintenance, decently accurate, lighter, and higher capacity Glock...

Best, Jon

[GJM]

A "service" revolver (which I'll loosely describe as one with a 4" barrel, and at least 6 round capacity) will be heavier than most comparable service autopistols, but will likely be more inherently accurate and less expensive.

A problem with the ultra-light revolvers is that the recoil forces can literally separate unfired cartridge's bullets from the cartridge body, and concurrently tie up the revolver mechanically. Not good. They're also a pain in the....hand...to practice with, and if with smaller grips controllability can be drastically compromised. A good holster and belt combination ameliorates the weight/comfort/concealment concerns for me, rendering my 4" service revolvers acceptable for concealed carry.

At the end of my particular day, the only revolvers I possess are service-length ones, with steel frames.
Best, Jon

The only revolvers I have a use for, are the small/light ones like my Scandium 340, or real big ones for use around bears. While the ones in the middle are fun to shoot, I believe they are obsoleted by the semi-auto service pistol.

[rsa-otc]

As a wheel gunner I find the following interesting and amusing. At the recent IDPA Bug Nationals Revolvers only represented 20% of the competitors yet from the IDPA Down Zero Blog:

Miculek 1st Overall
Crego 5th Overall
Luntz 6th Overall
Linsky 10th Overall

"Miculek’s final time of 166.50 seconds (with 43 points down) outpaced the Pistol division champion, Mike Seeklander, by 3.69 seconds. Miculek won all but one of the 13 stages in the division, and topped the entire field on six stages. In addition to winning the Revolver title, Miculek won High Industry honors in the division and was the high overall senior. “Jerry is simply amazing to watch, often taking more time to retrieve his revolver from its start position on a stage than putting the required five rounds on target. His incredible performance, not to mention four of the top 10 times coming from wheelgunners, demonstrates that in defensive applications, the revolver can go toe-to-toe with a pistol,” said Joyce Wilson, executive director of IDPA. Finishing second behind Miculek was Kirk Crego whose 198.93 seconds with 40 points down put him fifth overall in the match. Team Smith & Wesson’s other top wheelgunner, Josh Lentz, took third in the division, and sixth overall, with 202.84 (59). Joe Linskey, shooting for Wolff Gunsprings/TDS, placed fourth in the division and 10th overall with 209.42 (33)."

This in my opinion reinforces the fact that the only thing wrong with revolvers is ammunition capacity. If it was just Jerry well "we all want to be like Jerry (Mike)". With 20% of the shooters coming up with 40% of the top Ten shows that revolvers give nothing away from a shootability aspect. It also proves Double Action weapons be it revolvers or semi-auto is not to be dismissed.

[Tamara]

This in my opinion reinforces the fact that the only thing wrong with revolvers is ammunition capacity.

Heck, that's the only thing wrong with Thompson/Center Contenders, too. ;)

[TR675]

This in my opinion reinforces the fact that the only thing wrong with revolvers is ammunition capacity.

Yeah, but that "only thing" is a pretty big one. ;)

[Totem Polar]

This in my opinion reinforces the fact that the only thing wrong with revolvers is ammunition capacity. If it was just Jerry well "we all want to be like Jerry (Mike)". With 20% of the shooters coming up with 40% of the top Ten shows that revolvers give nothing away from a shootability aspect. It also proves Double Action weapons be it revolvers or semi-auto is not to be dismissed.


^^^*wipes tear from corner of eye* This is a beautiful thing. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

[JonInWA]

As a wheel gunner I find the following interesting and amusing. At the recent IDPA Bug Nationals Revolvers only represented 20% of the competitors yet from the IDPA Down Zero Blog:

Miculek 1st Overall
Crego 5th Overall
Luntz 6th Overall
Linsky 10th Overall

"Miculek’s final time of 166.50 seconds (with 43 points down) outpaced the Pistol division champion, Mike Seeklander, by 3.69 seconds. Miculek won all but one of the 13 stages in the division, and topped the entire field on six stages. In addition to winning the Revolver title, Miculek won High Industry honors in the division and was the high overall senior. “Jerry is simply amazing to watch, often taking more time to retrieve his revolver from its start position on a stage than putting the required five rounds on target. His incredible performance, not to mention four of the top 10 times coming from wheelgunners, demonstrates that in defensive applications, the revolver can go toe-to-toe with a pistol,” said Joyce Wilson, executive director of IDPA. Finishing second behind Miculek was Kirk Crego whose 198.93 seconds with 40 points down put him fifth overall in the match. Team Smith & Wesson’s other top wheelgunner, Josh Lentz, took third in the division, and sixth overall, with 202.84 (59). Joe Linskey, shooting for Wolff Gunsprings/TDS, placed fourth in the division and 10th overall with 209.42 (33)."

This in my opinion reinforces the fact that the only thing wrong with revolvers is ammunition capacity. If it was just Jerry well "we all want to be like Jerry (Mike)". With 20% of the shooters coming up with 40% of the top Ten shows that revolvers give nothing away from a shootability aspect. It also proves Double Action weapons be it revolvers or semi-auto is not to be dismissed.

In my opinion, not exactly. A modern semi-automatic, particular a quality polymer framed one (e.g., Glock, HK, Smith & Wesson et al can go for longer periods of time/significantly higher round counts without cleaning. While a revolver needs very little lubrication per se (much like the polymer semi-autos above, and perhaps even less so), in my experience they do and will need cleaning to remove accumulated GSR, etc, that semi-autos can simply shuck off.

Furthermore, with the exception of Ruger revolvers, field-stripping beyond removing grips and pushing the cylinder out of the window is something best accomplished in an administrative setting-especially if it involves removing and replacing a carefully fitted sideplate.

I freely grant that a trained and experienced revolver shooter can perform magnificently with one. The competition shooters you cite above are clearly exemplars of such. But I'll argue the converse-that they, or most shooters, can accomplish the same with less effort and less cleaning/maintenance with a semi-automatic pistol-and with (at least in most cases) significantly greater amounts of internally carried ammunition. And said contemporary semi-automatics are far, far more weather-impervious than revolvers, and with superior ergonomics in terms of basic shape and controls, let alone after-market support/options.

I'll also grant that I suspect that a quality revolver (Ruger, Smith & Wesson, etc.) has at least an equal,and probably a higher degree of mechanical accuracy out of the box compared to comparable semi-automatics. But (and there's always a "but," isn't there in these discussions?) is that more than adequate accuracy is inherently available with quality out-of-the-box semi-automatics (perhaps 9mm Smith & Wesson M&Ps aside...). But to access the inherent accuracy of a revolver requires either practicing and mastering an inherently heavier, longer triggerpull-or firing them thumb-cocked/single action.

In my opinion, the technological advantages inherent to available modern semi-automatic pistols really trump the revolver. It doesn't invalidate owning, using, carrying, defensively using or simply appreciating and enjoying a revolver, but it does, in my opinion, place them in a much narrower window of applicability if a user concurrently has access to a quality contemporary semi-automatic pistol.

Best, Jon

[bofe954]

I'm not sure I'd use the results of that match or any other as proof of anything. It sounds like the stages were designed to be revo friendly for one thing. I wasn't there so I don't know what people shot, but do we know that the revolver Miculek had wasn't advantageous somehow? If it's the one in this pic:

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/story/304606

he isn't exactly shooting a 642, looks like a good bit of site radius over this:

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/story/304604

Plus this -
One of the stages had a pickup 442 loaded with actual .357 ammo. That was...fun.

would seem to give an advantage to somebody who had been practicing with a revo prior to the match. Can you shoot 357 in a 442 these days?

[Tamara]

With 20% of the shooters coming up with 40% of the top Ten shows that revolvers give nothing away from a shootability aspect.

Just went and checked the BUG match reports. I'm not sure that's the platform I'd want to build my case on.

No string longer than five shots and no reloads on the clock? Well no wonder revolvers did okay. It's like pointing out that a horse is competitive with a car in a half-mile race with a 10mph maximum speed limit. ;)

I mean, Jerry's "BUG" was a flippin' 686. :rolleyes: Yeah, hey, I can probably shoot a steel L-frame snub better than I can shoot a Shield, too.

[Tamara]

Can you shoot 357 in a 442 these days?

Not to my knowledge, no.

[jetfire]

Not to my knowledge, no.

A correction: it was in fact an M&P340. This little guy: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_765779_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Right down to the XS front sight. A girl in my squad flinched so bad she was sailing rounds into the deck.

Also, yeah I wouldn't use the results of the match to compare wheelies to semi-autos, since the match was specifically designed to be five round neutral. Plus, Jerry was shooting a 686+ with a three inch barrel and Novak sights.

[Tamara]

the match was specifically designed to be five round neutral. Plus, Jerry was shooting a 686+ with a three inch barrel and Novak sights.

Open class BUG? :eek: I mean, a 3" K/L-frame revolver is no more a "BUG" than a Glock 19 or a Colt Commander is. That was the issue piece for teh fedz for a long time.

[Joseph B.]

Another issue with using IDPA stats is that the semi-autos are not loaded to capacity. Glock 17 with a full mag and one in the pipe, means I am shooting through three of the reloads of a revolver. With the 10 round restriction I am forced to reload once to fire 12 rounds, just like a revolver.

[rsa-otc]

Did anyone read my post, I gave you the ammo capacity argument. :cool:


This in my opinion reinforces the fact that the only thing wrong with revolvers is ammunition capacity. If it was just Jerry well "we all want to be like Jerry (Mike)". With 20% of the shooters coming up with 40% of the top Ten shows that revolvers give nothing away from a shootability aspect. It also proves Double Action weapons be it revolvers or semi-auto are not to be dismissed.

My point was that revolvers are quite shootable. By taking the ammo issue out of the equation it shows that the revolver is as shootable as a auto. One of the biggest arguments against revolvers is their DA trigger pull. I don't find teaching someone to shoot a revolver any more difficult than a striker fired auto. In fact as I pointed out previously don't we advise folks who are having trigger issues to get a revolver as a form of remedial training?

With regards Jerry's choice of guns I will point out that DocGKR pointed out that many of the guns used by competitors both revolver and Auto were not what you would necessarily call a bug gun.

John has some good arguments although I disagree with some and will counter when I have more time.


Have a good night all.

[Tamara]

One of the biggest arguments against revolvers is their DA trigger pull.

Not from me, it's not.

It's pretty much entirely the capacity thing as far as I'm concerned. That, and the generally slower and less fumble-resistant reloads.

If someone could guarantee me that no bad guy would ever need more than two rounds, I'd be ditching this plastic POS and then climb over a pile of multi-kilobuck 1911s to get to my DAO PC13. :cool:

[1slow]

I think that in 2 categories revolvers really rule:
1) Hammerless 5 shot j frames as pocket/ backup guns, a very good tool in a contact range fight.
2) Magnums for large animals, Bowen .500 , .475 Linebaugh Redhawks etc... Ross Seyfried wrote much about this.

For defense against packs of feral people or dogs I would rather have a high capacity auto of at least 9mm. Currently I am shooting .45 and 9mm Glocks and HK45 Lem , HK P30 LEM.
Tom Givens stated that his change from 1911 to GL35 was that Memphis was a 3 bad guy town and a 1911 was a 2 bad guy pistol.

[Al T.]

but will likely be more inherently accurate and less expensive.

Not really seeing "less expensive" (even used) around here for K frame S&Ws. Rugers may still be competitive, but nice used Smiths are well into 4 bills territory.

[Tamara]

Not really seeing "less expensive" (even used) around here for K frame S&Ws. Rugers may still be competitive, but nice used Smiths are well into 4 bills territory.

Even plebeian Model 10s have effectively doubled in price in the last eight years.

This (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/08/sunday-smith-9.html) was $275 in 95+% condition, in the two-piece gold foil box, back in '03, and the dude offered to knock $25 off if I didn't want the box.

[jetfire]

Even plebeian Model 10s have effectively doubled in price in the last eight years.

This (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/08/sunday-smith-9.html) was $275 in 95+% condition, in the two-piece gold foil box, back in '03, and the dude offered to knock $25 off if I didn't want the box.

I would like to go back in time and find 21 year old Caleb and tell him that instead of buying Taurii and weird old Berettas to instead use that money and just buy K-frames in bulk when they were $250 a pop.

[Chuck Haggard]

I would like to go back in time and find 21 year old Caleb and tell him that instead of buying Taurii and weird old Berettas to instead use that money and just buy K-frames in bulk when they were $250 a pop.

If I had the money about 1990 I could have bought a number of model 66s at $125 each when we cycled out our duty guns for 9mms.

[Tamara]

I would like to go back in time and find 21 year old Caleb and tell him that instead of buying Taurii and weird old Berettas to instead use that money and just buy K-frames in bulk when they were $250 a pop.

The price stayed remarkably flat on mainstream Smiths for a decade or so, but has just taken an Al Gorean hockey-stick upward swing in the past half-dozen years. I'm effectively priced out of the Hand Ejector collecting business these days. People want sick money for fairly pedestrian K-22s and Combat Masterpieces, which is especially sucky if you want to shoot them.

I want a .22 M&P in the worst way, but those "Post Office" Model 45s are just too spendy to consider as hard-use shooters now.

[Chuck Haggard]

One of the coolest set ups I ever worked with was my exGF's dad's former duty gun/practice gun duo, a model 15 and whatever the .22lr version of the model 15 is. He launched massive numbers of .22 downrange to stay sharp when he was carrying the .38 at work.

I'd love to be able to have the same set-up, but the money to do so is just stooped now.

[Tamara]

One of the coolest set ups I ever worked with was my exGF's dad's former duty gun/practice gun duo, a model 15 and whatever the .22lr version of the model 15 is.

Model 18. My pre-18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece is my favoritest Smith to shoot out of all mine.

[TCinVA]

I would like to go back in time and find 21 year old Caleb and tell him that instead of buying Taurii and weird old Berettas to instead use that money and just buy K-frames in bulk when they were $250 a pop.

No kidding. I snagged a couple of model 19's on CrackBroker for $125 a piece quite a while ago, both in the box nearly flawless condition. One didn't even have a turn ring on it.

Tried to find a 6 shot .357 for a friend who needed one for a security gig and couldn't touch a model 19 for anything less than $600 bucks. Ended up snagging a 686 SSR for myself at a little more than that and selling him one of my model 19's just because the 686 SSR infected my brain and wouldn't get out.

Finding revolvers on the shelf at gunstores was nigh unto impossible, and nobody had any ability to order any.

[jetfire]

It wasn't too long ago that JG Sales was blowing out DAO Model 64s for $239 and I, like a smacktard, passed.

[rsa-otc]

Model 18. My pre-18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece is my favoritest Smith to shoot out of all mine.

My father had a K-22 Target Masterpiece to compliment his K-38. While he kept his K-38 he gave me the K-22. Unfortunately it was chambered in 22 Magnum, so it mainly sat in my gun locker unused for years. Then when I got the "Don't keep anything you don't shoot bug" I let it and several other guns go including one of the original Colt Gold Cups. If I had had those guns over the last 2 years I really could have cleaned up.

In reality the only gun at this point a truly regret letting go was my Remington 1100 TRAP shotgun. It had sat in my locker unused for 25 years and we were in need of some cash and I couldn't see me shooting it again. Then 3 gun came along and I've been kicking myself ever since.:mad:

[FotoTomas]

I like revolvers and shoot them well. My S&W model 19 Combat Magnum is now my bedside, IDPA and carry belt gun. Financial circumstances due to family issues had me selling off the collection. The three I kept include the Combat Magnum, 638 Bodyguard and a Kahr PM9. I still have a Glock 26 but it is on loan to a family member...hope to get it back. Till then I feel the revolver is quite relevent. I can deal with the capacity because I have to. I still feel well armed off duty with my wheelies.

I will stipulate that the Glock 26 is a better choice for a daily carry piece off duty with its ammo capacity but hey... its not here now. Do'nt mess with me and my "Peace Officers Dream". :)

[Clyde from Carolina]

Model 18. My pre-18 K-22 Combat Masterpiece is my favoritest Smith to shoot out of all mine.

That is an uber cool gun. I have a '53 K22 with the longer six inch barrel which shoots like Dr. Evil's proverbial freaking laser --but I'd LOVE a four inch Pre-18.

[Clyde from Carolina]

I like revolvers and shoot them well. My S&W model 19 Combat Magnum is now my bedside, IDPA and carry belt gun. Financial circumstances due to family issues had me selling off the collection. The three I kept include the Combat Magnum, 638 Bodyguard and a Kahr PM9. I still have a Glock 26 but it is on loan to a family member...hope to get it back. Till then I feel the revolver is quite relevent. I can deal with the capacity because I have to. I still feel well armed off duty with my wheelies.

I will stipulate that the Glock 26 is a better choice for a daily carry piece off duty with its ammo capacity but hey... its not here now. Don't mess with me and my "Peace Officers Dream". :)

Right on, brother.

My training sergeant and mentor was a tough old cop who loaned a much favored 2.5" Smith Model 66 to a brother officer (they had been in a shooting incident together and were very tight) who was down on his luck and sans iron of any kind. I don't know that he ever got it back (sometimes these stories have less than Hollywood endings). But...I know a K-frame .357 in the hands of somebody who knows their business will "do to ride the river with" as they say.

[NETim]

Combat Masterpiece. Combat Masterpiece. Combat Masterpiece.

Cool. Cool. Cool.


:)

[LSP972]

If I had the money about 1990 I could have bought a number of model 66s at $125 each when we cycled out our duty guns for 9mms.

When I retired, I bought my two issued M-66s (4" SB & 2.5" RB) for the princely sum of… $17 each.:D

.

[Totem Polar]

OT to the OP, but somewhat relevant to the thread drift: I've told this story on numerous gun fora before, but, at the onset of the Clinton-era AWB experiment, I traded a minty Glock 19, 3 15-round "soon-to-be-banned" mags and 500 rounds of early 90's-era Federal 124 gr hydra-shok in a nice, surplus ammo can, plus $75 for

(wait for it)

three clean LE trade-in S&W model 65-3s with 3" tubes and round butts. I still have one, and so does my dad. History looks back very kindly on that deal. :cool:

[Tamara]

OT to the OP, but somewhat relevant to the thread drift: I've told this story on numerous gun fora before, but, at the onset of the Clinton-era AWB experiment, I traded a minty Glock 19, 3 15-round "soon-to-be-banned" mags and 500 rounds of early 90's-era Federal 124 gr hydra-shok in a nice, surplus ammo can, plus $75 for

(wait for it)

three clean LE trade-in S&W model 65-3s with 3" tubes and round butts. I still have one, and so does my dad. History looks back very kindly on that deal. :cool:

Back in '02 I got a call from my friend Marko, letting me know that a local dealer (a shop at which I'd eventually end up working for a while) had three Model 624s in LNIB condition they'd be willing to let go as a set for $1,000.

I had no need for a 3", 4", and 6" 624, but I knew I'd want to keep at least one, so I agreed to the deal.

I sold the 6" immediately (traded it for a 442 and some cash, IIRC) and then dithered over the 3" and 4" guns, trying to decide which to keep. Eventually I decided the 3" 624 matched my 3" 629 and decided I'd collect 3" stainless N-frames, and traded the 4" gun for a 2" 64 and some cash.

In today's market, $1,000 would barely buy one of those three guns. :o

[Dagga Boy]

I sold the 6" immediately (traded it for a 442 and some cash, IIRC) and then dithered over the 3" and 4" guns, trying to decide which to keep. Eventually I decided the 3" 624 matched my 3" 629 and decided I'd collect 3" stainless N-frames, and traded the 4" gun for a 2" 64 and some cash.

Just one more reason why Tam is my favorite person on the internet.:cool:

There is just something special about snub N frames. Mainly because I can not only shoot bad guys, but light them on fire and beat them if necessary:p.

Wayne and I were having this conversation with a student at class last week. With the round counts we put out at many classes these days, the revolvers would be not only getting cleaned daily, many would be having issues with reliability. Like others have said, when I have non-dedicated folks looking for a bedside gun that is going to get loaded and sit for years with an occasional trip to the local range to shoot a box of ammunition, the revolver is still an excellent choice. The same for a small gun carried in pockets, purses, packs, and other less than optimal places. For a hardcore long term training gun......not the top of my list. I find revolvers relevant, and good for some folks, just not many of those populating this place.

I had a funny conversation from the "kid" (Police cadet who took the Hebrew Hammer through the academy and carried it as a duty gun) when I got my .45 Colt revolver back before leaving California. I said that I never felt "under gunned" with it. He said, "me either........until the guy hosing the street with an M16. I was hiding behind a car thinking that I think its time to transition to an auto".

[Totem Polar]

In today's market, $1,000 would barely buy one of those three guns. :o

^^^True that. For a good length of time, I was religious about usage of the term "Horton" in the revolver category of gunbroker, and a 3" 624 was a big part of why. I can't remember the last time I saw one that wasn't 9 bennies or more. Often a lot more. History smiles on your deal, for sure. :D

Of course, in today's market, 1k would barely buy 500 rounds of good JHP ammo and a holster for the 624 as well.

[Drang]

When I retired, I bought my two issued M-66s (4" SB & 2.5" RB) for the princely sum of… $17 each.:D.
Dad gave me his retirement presentation Model 10, nickle plated an marked "Detroit Police Department." Never liked nickle-plated guns, but it sure is purty, and it has the sweetest trigger I ever pulled -- for the single cylinder I put through it.

He's hanging on to the J Frame he bought when he retired. (Actually, they recalled the one he bought, he got a newer one.)

[David Armstrong]

Being one of only two officers on my department that even shoots the wheel gun, I find myself asking - are revolvers still relevant?
Sure they are. They still do the job and they do the job adequately. That happens to be one of my pet peeves in the gun world, the strange belief expressed by many that whenever something new comes along that does the job better all the previous tools that did the job just fine are suddenly unable to do the job just fine. As others have pointed out, about the only thing you really give up with a revolver is capacity, and given the stats I question just how important that is to the overall picture.

[Tamara]

^^^True that. For a good length of time, I was religious about usage of the term "Horton" in the revolver category of gunbroker, and a 3" 624 was a big part of why. I can't remember the last time I saw one that wasn't 9 bennies or more. Often a lot more. History smiles on your deal, for sure. :D

Ironically, I got out of stainless revolvers almost entirely in '09 or so, and that 624 did bring almost as much as the whole set of three. Not as much as the 3" 627 V-Comp, serial number JMC0001, though. :D

I still have the 629. :o

[rsa-otc]

Just one more reason why Tam is my favorite person on the internet.:cool: Ya I Know right.

Wayne and I were having this conversation with a student at class last week. With the round counts we put out at many classes these days, the revolvers would be not only getting cleaned daily, many would be having issues with reliability. I find that would be dependent on ammo selection, all lead rounds most definitely, Jacketed or Molly coated bullets really reduces those problems, truth be told how many of your auto students shoot anything but FMJ or JHP in class. I put 900 rounds of Molly Coated through my 686 at that instructor course this year and didn't have to touch the gun all week. I would think you would have more of an issue with the students not bringing enough speedloaders and slowing the class pace down while you wait for them to refill their 2 or 3. I take a minimum of 8 with me to classes.

I had a funny conversation from the "kid" (Police cadet who took the Hebrew Hammer through the academy and carried it as a duty gun) when I got my .45 Colt revolver back before leaving California. I said that I never felt "under gunned" with it. He said, "me either........until the guy hosing the street with an M16. I was hiding behind a car thinking that I think its time to transition to an auto". For me I would feel under gunned with anything less than a patrol carbine myself. That said and this is me talking, if I was an active LEO I would be carrying a Semi - Auto on duty even if department policy allowed me to carry my wheely. Of course it really depends on your area of operation.

[Crews]

I got a big ole' pile of dead hogs with .44 sized holes in them says revolvers are still relevant for SOMETHING. : )

[Palmguy]

Sure they are. They still do the job and they do the job adequately. That happens to be one of my pet peeves in the gun world, the strange belief expressed by many that whenever something new comes along that does the job better all the previous tools that did the job just fine are suddenly unable to do the job just fine. As others have pointed out, about the only thing you really give up with a revolver is capacity, and given the stats I question just how important that is to the overall picture.

I'm guessing the stats you are referring to would be something regarding the average number of rounds expended in a gunfight, or something like that.

If you look at risk as being comprised of the factors of probability of occurrence and severity of occurrence; for this case, it's not likely to happen (needing 7+ rounds; or needing to reload at all) but if it does, you're kittened. That risk is easily mitigated by a comparable alternative that doesn't have relative downsides.

That being the case, I'm not sure why one would choose to carry a revolver in a patrol capacity but to each their own; I don't really care what anyone else does. I just pretend to be an engineer.

[Nephrology]

No kidding. I snagged a couple of model 19's on CrackBroker for $125 a piece quite a while ago, both in the box nearly flawless condition. One didn't even have a turn ring on it.

Tried to find a 6 shot .357 for a friend who needed one for a security gig and couldn't touch a model 19 for anything less than $600 bucks. Ended up snagging a 686 SSR for myself at a little more than that and selling him one of my model 19's just because the 686 SSR infected my brain and wouldn't get out.

Finding revolvers on the shelf at gunstores was nigh unto impossible, and nobody had any ability to order any.

$125?????? You just made me mess my pants a little bit. I paid 400 shipped for a reasonably worn (but mechanically excellent) model 19-3 + 3 speedloaders and I thought I got the deal of a lifetime out of it.

[FotoTomas]

...snip... If you look at risk as being comprised of the factors of probability of occurrence and severity of occurrence; for this case, it's not likely to happen (needing 7+ rounds; or needing to reload at all) but if it does, you're kittened. ...snip...

I almost agree with the above. Looking at perceived risk and deciding a revolver is within you comfort level is reasonable BUT thinking you are "kittened" if you need to reload is not. I will stipulate reloading a revolver is not as simple or easily mastered as slipping in a pre-loaded magazine but it is quite doable and has been done very well in the past during real shooting events. Best case for most...no. For some...maybe. Are you "kittened"...No unless you did not prepare and train. For those did not prepare and train no matter what they pack it most likely will not carry the fight.

[FotoTomas]

$125?????? You just made me mess my pants a little bit. I paid 400 shipped for a reasonably worn (but mechanically excellent) model 19-3 + 3 speedloaders and I thought I got the deal of a lifetime out of it.

Then you will not want to hear about the M10 police trade ins I got for $70 each or better yet the 6 S&W Victory Model .38 Special Hand Ejectors M&P's, still in the cosmoline, all in mint condition and US NAVY marked for $50 bucks apiece. All back in the mid 80's I admit. Dang those were some good times. :)

[BLR]

What assumptions are made to deem relevant or irrelevant for this topic?

[Tamara]

What assumptions are made to deem relevant or irrelevant for this topic?

"Are made to deem"? I'm not parsing. Honest, not being snarky.

[BLR]

What assumptions are being made by the participants in this thread in order to deem revolvers as relevant or irrelevant?

Usually when we start down a road like this at work, we outline our assumptions. I'm curious what assumptions people are making here.

[dbateman]

Combat Masterpiece. Combat Masterpiece. Combat Masterpiece.

Cool. Cool. Cool.


:)

What Tim said.

I have one and like it also like the good old Mod 25 chambered in 45Lc.

Not sure I can agree with this 9mm= the good old man stoppers.
For the fact that wile the 9mm has been improved on so have the others.

[Tamara]

*looks at page number*

You know, never mind.

Thought better of it.

[Palmguy]

I almost agree with the above. Looking at perceived risk and deciding a revolver is within you comfort level is reasonable BUT thinking you are "kittened" if you need to reload is not. I will stipulate reloading a revolver is not as simple or easily mastered as slipping in a pre-loaded magazine but it is quite doable and has been done very well in the past during real shooting events. Best case for most...no. For some...maybe. Are you "kittened"...No unless you did not prepare and train. For those did not prepare and train no matter what they pack it most likely will not carry the fight.

Needs to be reloaded two to three times as often and is to some extent more difficult to do so. That's all I was saying, possible poor choice in words notwithstanding.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Alaskapopo]

For use as a duty or primary carry weapon? Not really.

But above and below the service pistol job, when you get into BUGs or large frame magnum revolvers, IMHO the wheelgun does a better job than semi auto pistols you might use for those same jobs.

I have never found a .380 or pocket 9mm as reliable as a J frame, and guns like the Desert Eagle are basically a bad joke compared to a N frame S&W.

Agree on the J frames and magnums. However I am carrying my big bore revolvers less in the woods and carrying my Glock 20 a lot more. For me it makes more sense. Still will penetrate a bear skull. Easier to shoot, shoots like the guns I train with, easier to carry, holds more ammo etc. If you want to use a revolver it can work but autos do a better job as a main line self defense pistol.
Pat

[Robinson]

Revolvers are relevant to me. I guess it's a matter of familiarity -- I've been shooting and practicing with revolvers for 30+ years, 1911s for 20 -- so those are the guns I carry and rely on. I concede there are more modern choices that have real benefits and appreciate modern auto-loaders for what they are. I will probably continue to use what I have though.

I have to confess, at the risk of maybe being ridiculed, that one reason I still carry revolvers and 1911s is simply because I like them. I like shooting them, working on them, cleaning them, handling them, looking at them, training with them. I have no illusion that they are the "best" guns -- but I do believe they are still relevant and effective tools as well as interesting artifacts.

Now if someone asks me if a revolver or 1911 is the gun they should buy, I always start with "Well that depends, but probably not...".

[NETim]

Revolvers are relevant to me. I guess it's a matter of familiarity -- I've been shooting and practicing with revolvers for 30+ years, 1911s for 20 -- so those are the guns I carry and rely on. I concede there are more modern choices that have real benefits and appreciate modern auto-loaders for what they are. I will probably continue to use what I have though.

I have to confess, at the risk of maybe being ridiculed, that one reason I still carry revolvers and 1911s is simply because I like them. I like shooting them, working on them, cleaning them, handling them, looking at them, training with them. I have no illusion that they are the "best" guns -- but I do believe they are still relevant and effective tools as well as interesting artifacts.

Now if someone asks me if a revolver or 1911 is the gun they should buy, I always start with "Well that depends, but probably not...".

+1 I haven't been playing with handguns for nearly that long, but I feel the same way nevertheless. If someone asks me what gun I recommend to carry, without hesitation I'll tell 'em, "A Glock 19."

[JeffJ]

What assumptions are being made by the participants in this thread in order to deem revolvers as relevant or irrelevant?

Usually when we start down a road like this at work, we outline our assumptions. I'm curious what assumptions people are making here.

This is why these "discussions" never actually accomplish anything. No one can agree on the assumptions.

[Tamara]

I have to confess, at the risk of maybe being ridiculed, that one reason I still carry revolvers and 1911s is simply because I like them. I like shooting them, working on them, cleaning them, handling them, looking at them, training with them. I have no illusion that they are the "best" guns -- but I do believe they are still relevant and effective tools as well as interesting artifacts.

It's been 20 years since the shiny wore off Glocks and such for me. I don't think I've picked up a plastic pistol to "Ooh!" and "Aah!" and coonfinger it just because since... well, it's been a while.

But I can't go up in the attic without pulling out that ugly old Second Model .44 H.E. or spend more than ten minutes in the basement without getting out a custom 1911 just to hold it, maybe check it clear and dry-fire some at the target on the basement wall. You know, just because...

[BLR]

This is why these "discussions" never actually accomplish anything. No one can agree on the assumptions.

My point exactly.



Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

I just assume that everyone that agrees with me is right and those who disagree are wrong.

[Tamara]

I just assume that everyone that agrees with me is right and those who disagree are wrong.

Oh, sure, but that's because you rely on feeelings and anecdotes, whereas I can cherry-pick selected facts to totally prove that everyone that agrees with me is right and those who disagree are wrong. ;)

[Totem Polar]

I think that both Robinson and Tam have brought up good points (and after p9, to boot!) nobody should find it surprising that, say, an accord hybrid is objectively a better transportation tool than, say, a '59 Vette, a '69 Camaro or a '79 911sc; that's why people who drive a ton have accords and why work doesn't issue '69 camaros from the fleet to reps. If you're an enthusiast and you don't drive for a living, well, the joy benefits of the classics may outweight the practical shortcomings; all will get you to the corner store.

At any rate, like Jody, I've made up my mnd: anyone who owns both more than one j frame and more than one k frame is right.
:cool:

[LSP972]

I've made up my mnd: anyone who owns both more than one j frame and more than one k frame is right.
:cool:


Thank God I'm right…:p

Hey… anyone know why S&W never made a Ti-Scan K frame? Man, that would be the shizz… a Model 12 that you could actually shoot without worry, eh?

.

[ScotchMan]

I think I have something to add that hasn't been said yet.

If there was some sort of emergency or period of "bad juju", and I found myself with a need to arm someone unfamiliar with guns, I would reach for a K/L Frame S&W. Anyone in America knows how to fire it and check if it is loaded. There is minimal risk of any accidents, even if the person is walking around with their finger on the trigger.

To me, that makes it relevant. As a BUG, the same thing applies; if you need to arm a companion or stranger, nothing gives me more confidence that they will know what to do than a revolver.

There is no semi-auto that doesn't require at least some sort of explanation, but I think people generally know how revolvers work.

[Tamara]

Hey… anyone know why S&W never made a Ti-Scan K frame?

By the time the Ti/Sc guns hit, the Ks were already on their way out the door. Since my 12 and my 296 fit all the same holsters, I think they made the right call.

[LSP972]

By the time the Ti/Sc guns hit, the Ks were already on their way out the door.

Yeah, that happened under the radar. By the time I noticed, it was a done deal.

I assume you mean that the k frames fit okay in an L frame holster? The only K frame holster I have remaining is an old, worn Bianchi belt slide; and my 242 won't fit when the holster is on a belt.

But I was thinking about speedloaders. I have a metric kitten load of SafariLand Comp IIs for the K frame; got zilch for the 242.

.

[Tamara]

I assume you mean that the k frames fit okay in an L frame holster? The only K frame holster I have remaining is an old, worn Bianchi belt slide; and my 242 won't fit when the holster is on a belt.

They fit most of them, in that most companies list a single SKU for K/L-frame holsters. I've got my 296 and a Galco Speed Master (SM112) handy; it fits fine.

[BobM]

I have a Bianchi Pistol Pocket around here somewhere that I used to use for my issued Security Six. It also fit my GP100 back when I'd carry it off duty.

[Totem Polar]

I can't believe I'm hearing this talk of a single holster for both K and L frames. I have a couple of delightful, old school Elmer McEvoys in the grand Sparks tradition, and they fit the guns they were made for, to wit: my K frame IWB should come with a "no Ls allowed" stamp.

And the model 12 is definitely prime for a retro scan ti reissue, so long as the lock fails to make the cut. I will return at some point with a pic of my minty 12-2.

Lastly, as I drove across the state with Mrs Sidheshooter today, I saw another relevancy for wheelies loafing in the right lane: ported armored trucks.

[Tamara]

And the model 12 is definitely prime for a retro scan ti reissue, so long as the lock fails to make the cut.

Why not wish for a gold house and a rocket car while you're at it? :p

[LSP972]

They fit most of them, in that most companies list a single SKU for K/L-frame holsters.

Ah… you're speaking of fairly recent stuff. I keep neglecting to recall that I'm WAY behind the power curve with a lot of this stuff; when I bought that afore-mentioned Bianchi holster, L frames existed only on the drawing board.

.

[LSP972]

And the model 12 is definitely prime for a retro scan ti reissue, so long as the lock fails to make the cut.



Indeed. That would be one heck of a carry piece. But I'm afraid Tamara is correct; it ain't happening.

I too have a "minty" M-12. I have, several times, contemplated sending it to Birdsong's for a Black T treatment so I can use the revolver as a "shower gun"- the Black T is absolutely, positively 100% corrosion-proof, and they do EVERY piece of a firearm except special sights (fiber optic, etc.). I mean, you can't shoot the darn things (M-12s) any appreciable amount without worry of cracking the frame, right? So what better purpose than to serve as a stash piece; unused but always ready?

I haven't done this yet because it seems too ignoble of an end for a not-common S&W that was built back when they were making them right.

I'm sure I'll get over that, and make it happen…:D


.

[David Armstrong]

I'm guessing the stats you are referring to would be something regarding the average number of rounds expended in a gunfight, or something like that.

If you look at risk as being comprised of the factors of probability of occurrence and severity of occurrence; for this case, it's not likely to happen (needing 7+ rounds; or needing to reload at all) but if it does, you're kittened. That risk is easily mitigated by a comparable alternative that doesn't have relative downsides.

That being the case, I'm not sure why one would choose to carry a revolver in a patrol capacity but to each their own; I don't really care what anyone else does. I just pretend to be an engineer.
I'd have to disagree on the idea that you are somehow done in if you need to reload. Reloading a revolver is really not that big a deal, although it does seem to be a lost art for many in the shooting world. I've said it before, if every CCW holder and LEO in the U.S. suddenly had to carry a revolver I doubt there would be any noticeable change in the outcome of gunfights.

[Palmguy]

I'd have to disagree on the idea that you are somehow done in if you need to reload. Reloading a revolver is really not that big a deal, although it does seem to be a lost art for many in the shooting world. I've said it before, if every CCW holder and LEO in the U.S. suddenly had to carry a revolver I doubt there would be any noticeable change in the outcome of gunfights.

I did say a little earlier my choice of words wasn't the best, but the point stands and I think most reasonable people would agree that given the choice to have to reload twice, or reload zero times to fire the same number of rounds, not having to reload is preferable. You are only looking at the probability factor and not the consequence factor....there may not be any noticeable change in the outcome of gunfights, but there sure as hell could be in the outcome of a gunfight.

[Dagga Boy]

By the time the Ti/Sc guns hit, the Ks were already on their way out the door. Since my 12 and my 296 fit all the same holsters, I think they made the right call.

Another 296 fan.....figures it would be Tam. I have a Bowen Custom 296 that I carried as my BUG when I was working Bike Patrol. I absolutely love that gun. Ugly, but very functional.

[SeriousStudent]

If I had to carry a K, I'd carry my 547 just to tweak 1911guy. :D

I actually saw a 547 at the gun show this morning. The finish was pretty bad, and the guy wanted $1000 without letting me touch it until I handed him the cash. The grip screw I could see looked bad, and I could not touch it to flip it over and look at the other side.

I declined.

[Totem Polar]

Why not wish for a gold house and a rocket car while you're at it? :p

:D

Yeah, yeah.

[cathellsk]

Did you guys hear of the S&W 315 NightGuard? They've already ceased production though. It was a 6 shot K frame .38SPL 2.5" bbl with alloy frame.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=72080

[Totem Polar]

^^^I do remember those Nightguards when they came out. Proof that S&W can do it if they feel so moved. Heavier than a 2" model 12 from back in the day, but a cool idea with the sights. I'd think a modern, DAO scan ti M12 could be brought down to 16-17 oz. Depends how much weight could be saved in the cylinder, I suppose.

on edit: a quick trip down wiki lane shows that the first 12s--the ones with the failing cylinders-- came in under 15oz. A robust K-snub coming in at 16-17 seems totally doable. Of course, so does a rocket car.

[Tamara]

They've already ceased production though.

No doubt because they were selling like hotcakes and Smith didn't feel like keeping up with the orders pouring in. ;)

Sadly, the market has spoken, and it wasn't speaking in Kframese. :(


on edit: a quick trip down wiki lane shows that the first 12s--the ones with the failing cylinders-- came in under 15oz. A robust K-snub coming in at 16-17 seems totally doable. Of course, so does a rocket car.

All Model 12s have steel cylinders. The aluminum cylinders went away in '54, when the gun was still the "M&P Airweight", before model numbers. The biggest problem with early 12s (and all early Smith alloy-frame revolvers, well into the Sixties, was the frame cracking due to stresses from torquing the barrels in.

[jetfire]

The Nightguard guns were cool ideas, but they had problems. The 325 Nightguard liked to pull bullets, which you're dealing with a moonclip gun is a real problem. The 386 was pretty rad, but for reasons unbeknownst to me the sights were regulated for 158 grain bullets going slow instead of the more common and popular 130 grain FMJ or 125 grain JHP.

[Tamara]

The 386 was pretty rad, but for reasons unbeknownst to me the sights were regulated for 158 grain bullets going slow instead of the more common and popular 130 grain FMJ or 125 grain JHP.

Whoever's in charge of the sights on Smiths .38s thinks That '70s Show is a contemporary drama and doesn't realize that hardly anybody but handloaders shoots 158gr LRN anymore...

[David Armstrong]

I did say a little earlier my choice of words wasn't the best, but the point stands and I think most reasonable people would agree that given the choice to have to reload twice, or reload zero times to fire the same number of rounds, not having to reload is preferable. You are only looking at the probability factor and not the consequence factor....there may not be any noticeable change in the outcome of gunfights, but there sure as hell could be in the outcome of a gunfight.
Sure, if one wishes to discuss individual micro issues any single issue can frequently be important. I tend to address issues from a macro standpoint. The chances of needing to reload are slim. The chances of needing to reload twice are a fraction of a fraction. At some point we reach a point where it really doesn't matter much in the overall scheme of life.

[Tamara]

There is no doubt that revolver reloads can be practiced to proficiency, but anybody who says that they are not easier to fumble than an autopistol reload is talking through their hat.

[Totem Polar]

Whoever's in charge of the sights on Smiths .38s thinks That '70s Show is a contemporary drama and doesn't realize that hardly anybody but handloaders shoots 158gr LRN anymore...

I don't know, Tam, I'd bet that the top load loafing around inside cylinders chambered for .38 Special is still *somebody's* version of the "FBI" load, despite penetration (no pun intended) of the cognoscenti market by 110 DPX and 135 GDHP loadings. As an aside, the second-to-last S&W wheelie that I bought was a Brinks Car Co. overrun built to NYPD spec (bead blast, DAO, etc) that shot to POA with 110 gr loads. I loved everything else about that gun, but it didn't last, since the entirety of wheeldom in my safe otherwise all shoots exactly alike: as if 158 loads passed through sights welded to my retinas. I've probably shot more cheap 158 FMJ this year than cheap 124 FMJ 9mm.

And you are, per usual, correct about the designation and issues with the 12; I probably should have been more specific.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Whoever's in charge of the sights on Smiths .38s thinks That '70s Show is a contemporary drama and doesn't realize that hardly anybody but handloaders shoots 158gr LRN anymore...

"But....that's the way we've always done it."

[1986s4]

Whoever's in charge of the sights on Smiths .38s thinks That '70s Show is a contemporary drama and doesn't realize that hardly anybody but handloaders shoots 158gr LRN anymore...

Right you are! As a handloader I use 160gr RN's......

[Tamara]

I don't know, Tam, I'd bet that the top load loafing around inside cylinders chambered for .38 Special is still *somebody's* version of the "FBI" load...

True, although I was more referring to the fact that the most common range ammo today in the caliber seems to be Q4171 or AE38K or the like, probably due to the fact that it's as much as a dime a round cheaper than 158gr LRN from the big factories.

[jetfire]

True, although I was more referring to the fact that the most common range ammo today in the caliber seems to be Q4171 or AE38K or the like, probably due to the fact that it's as much as a dime a round cheaper than 158gr LRN from the big factories.

Plus, plenty of indoor ranges have rules about not using all lead bullets in this modern day and age.

[Chuck Haggard]

Plus, plenty of indoor ranges have rules about not using all lead bullets in this modern day and age.

Why?

Typically I hear stupid stuff like cheap steel jacketed pistol ammo being banned because it will "damage the backstop" as though it was rifle AP ammo, but I have yet to see a range that bans lead.

[jetfire]

Why?

Typically I hear stupid stuff like cheap steel jacketed pistol ammo being banned because it will "damage the backstop" as though it was rifle AP ammo, but I have yet to see a range that bans lead.

Air quality standards. Lead ammo + poor ventilation systems = high employee BLL.

[Chuck Haggard]

Kind of silly if they also allow standard primer FMJ ammo.

[Lester Polfus]

Oh my. Up until this thread I'd never heard of the Smith and Wesson 296. I must have been deployed during the three weeks or so they made them.

This is the gun I wanted my Charter Arms Bulldog Pug to be.


I have the wants.

[jetfire]

Kind of silly if they also allow standard primer FMJ ammo.

You know this and I know this...

[Chuck Haggard]

Oh my. Up until this thread I'd never heard of the Smith and Wesson 296. I must have been deployed during the three weeks or so they made them.

This is the gun I wanted my Charter Arms Bulldog Pug to be.


I have the wants.

I wanted the 7 shooter .38special version even worse, until I had one.............

[Lester Polfus]

I wanted the 7 shooter .38special version even worse, until I had one.............

Was it the scandium frame that you didn't like? Because I note with interest there was also an all steel version.

Who am I kidding? I have two 9mm Glocks and a J-frame 638. I don't need more guns. I need more range time.

[Chuck Haggard]

Was it the scandium frame that you didn't like? Because I note with interest there was also an all steel version.

Who am I kidding? I have two 9mm Glocks and a J-frame 638. I don't need more guns. I need more range time.

Nope, size of the gun. It was just outside of the envelope that I needed it to be. Only job I had for it was parka pocket BUG, so I sold it to the next guy who just had to have one.

[Lester Polfus]

Nope, size of the gun. It was just outside of the envelope that I needed it to be. Only job I had for it was parka pocket BUG, so I sold it to the next guy who just had to have one.

That makes sense. I guess I had visions of AIWB, but I already have a G19 that works really, really well in that role and hold mucho more bullets.

Ok. Thanks for indulging my brief flight of fancy.

I do this periodically, then I realize that guns are really, really cool, but I dont' really need anymore.

[TR675]

...but I dont' really need anymore.

http://jojofeelings.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/4af48dd1-2ae8-443b-927c-be4cda00c3c1.jpg

[Tamara]

Nope, size of the gun. It was just outside of the envelope that I needed it to be. Only job I had for it was parka pocket BUG, so I sold it to the next guy who just had to have one.

To me, the 296 is a pretty narrow-focus gun, but it's nearly perfect for that narrow purpose. To wit, if you have a purse or satchel with a gun compartment that can be unobtrusively accessed from the outside...


The gun is light enough to carry in there without feeling like it's going to tear your shoulder off.
You can be walking through the parking lot or parking garage or riding the elevator with your hand already unobtrusively on the weapon.
If for whatever reason the gun is fired from inside the bag there is at least a chance that you will be able to get off multiple shots, and the shots you get off will be .429" ones if the hollowpoints get all clogged with purse.


That's the only reason I've still got the gun. :o

[Chuck Haggard]

To me, the 296 is a pretty narrow-focus gun, but it's nearly perfect for that narrow purpose. To wit, if you have a purse or satchel with a gun compartment that can be unobtrusively accessed from the outside...


The gun is light enough to carry in there without feeling like it's going to tear your shoulder off.
You can be walking through the parking lot or parking garage or riding the elevator with your hand already unobtrusively on the weapon.
If for whatever reason the gun is fired from inside the bag there is at least a chance that you will be able to get off multiple shots, and the shots you get off will be .429" ones if the hollowpoints get all clogged with purse.


That's the only reason I've still got the gun. :o

All valid, the mission driving the gear train and whatnot.


That scene from 'Eraser' where Vanessa Williams blasts the bad guy through the purse with the J frame is one of movie time's great street realistic gun moments IMHO.


But, I seldom carry a purse, and that gun didn't work for AIWB for me the way I had hoped, so............ Off to the next guy it went.



ETA; purse load that will never clog; https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=99

[Lester Polfus]

To me, the 296 is a pretty narrow-focus gun, but it's nearly perfect for that narrow purpose. To wit, if you have a purse or satchel with a gun compartment that can be unobtrusively accessed from the outside...


The gun is light enough to carry in there without feeling like it's going to tear your shoulder off.
You can be walking through the parking lot or parking garage or riding the elevator with your hand already unobtrusively on the weapon.
If for whatever reason the gun is fired from inside the bag there is at least a chance that you will be able to get off multiple shots, and the shots you get off will be .429" ones if the hollowpoints get all clogged with purse.


That's the only reason I've still got the gun. :o

Hey, if the only reason you had the gun was because it was frickin' cool, that would make sense to me.

Someday, when I get the house paid off, I may be a collector.

[jetfire]

ETA; purse load that will never clog; https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=99

Jeebus Lorenzo, a 200 grain bullet at 1000 FPS. "Why yes, I would like to shoot through ALL THE THINGS."

[Lester Polfus]

Jeebus Lorenzo, a 200 grain bullet at 1000 FPS. "Why yes, I would like to shoot through ALL THE THINGS."

It shoots through SCHOOLS!

[Tamara]

Hey, if the only reason you had the gun was because it was frickin' cool, that would make sense to me.

Someday, when I get the house paid off, I may be a collector.

I prefer my collectibles to have more walnut, blued steel, and sex appeal. :D

If it's made of titanium, aluminum, soulless steel, or scandalum, it has to earn its keep.

[ArmyCop]

Being one of only two officers on my department that even shoots the wheel gun, I find myself asking - are revolvers still relevant?

Mine is still relevant. Off duty I recently went FROM semi-auto's TO revolver(s) for my EDC. Currently a S&W Model 60 Pro - soon might rotate between that and a S&W 640 - both 357 magnum's.

[nycnoob]

Mine is still relevant. Off duty I recently went FROM semi-auto's TO revolver(s) for my EDC.


Please tell us why.

[KPD]

I find them relevant for me for one reason. I still run one better than a pistol which gives me more confidence in my abilities.
I have been issued SIGs for over 18 years but I started out with a revolver.

[David Armstrong]

Mine is still relevant. Off duty I recently went FROM semi-auto's TO revolver(s) for my EDC. Currently a S&W Model 60 Pro - soon might rotate between that and a S&W 640 - both 357 magnum's.
I find myself carrying an auto less and less and my revolvers more and more.

[TR675]

I find myself carrying an auto less and less and my revolvers more and more.

Ditto. I find that small revolvers are far easier to conceal when wearing clothes that fit well, which is about 90% of my wardrobe. A 3" SP101 in an OWB pancake holster disappears no matter what I'm wearing. Loafing around on the weekend wearing mom jeans, yeah, I can carry something more substantial, but it's harder to make an auto work for my particular EDC situation. Given my circumstances, revos = relevant.

IME autos are better than revolvers at everything except getting pulled out of my safe and carried around.

[NETim]

Been thinking about going AIWB with the 442. Pocket carry feels awkward and slow. In the process of searching for a holster for the little tyke.

[TR675]

Been thinking about going AIWB with the 442. Pocket carry feels awkward and slow. In the process of searching for a holster for the little tyke.

Raven may be able to make you a custom VG2. They match together very well. The regular old cheap Galco or Bianchi suede holsters also work reasonably well for me.

[Tamara]

In the process of searching for a holster for the little tyke.

Dark Star Gear makes an awesome little vertical tuckable holster (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-doctor-gun.html) for just that job.

[BarneyCallahan]

Being one of only two officers on my department that even shoots the wheel gun, I find myself asking - are revolvers still relevant?

Here are a couple of thoughts that maybe have not already been mentioned as to why revolvers are still relevant and may have an advantage over an auto-loader as a life saving defensive tool in certain situations, such as "home defense." (I have read many of the previous posts, but I haven't read them all. So please forgive me if I repeat what someone else already wrote.) I agree that a modern high capacity pistol is (generally) better for "duty" carry than a revolver. But a revolver definitely has a place in personal and home defense, and with a lot of old folks. I know nobody ever complained after the fact (a shooting) about having too many bullets in their gun, or being able to reload too fast. But the reality is the vast majority of self-defense shootings are resolved with a very few rounds fired. The vast majority of the time when a bunch of rounds are fired, most of them are misses. I also know "it's better to have them and not need them, than to need them and not have them." But also, "you can't miss fast enough or often enough to win."

I'm not suggesting these are major arguments for a revolver (though some may think so); just my contribution to the conversation.

1) A revolver is less likely to become disabled in a very close (contact) encounter. It is true that one should never get that close to a bad guy, or let a bad guy get that close to you; and good situational awareness and tactics will usually prevent this. But unpredictable/unanticipated things can and do happen. Despite all the best training and all your best efforts at implementing your training, you may find yourself in physical contact with someone intent on harming you or a loved one. An auto can easily get pushed out of battery or something could impede the slide's ability to cycle freely. In such a situation there would be no time or ability to clear a malfunction. You'd be busy trying to retain your gun and repel your attacker. On the other hand a revolver will happily deliver 5-8 contact wounds upon demand, in the midst of the struggle. Yes, a bad guy can incapacitate your gun, either deliberately or unwittingly, (for instance) by grabbing the revolver by the cylinder. But short of that the revolver will deliver, the auto may not. Also, in a physical contact situation a heavy steel revolver makes a much better "whip" or "punch" than a plastic or aluminum auto. (Don't ask me how I know. -- See my thread "Revolver to Striker-fired Pistol" under 'Autoloaders' and read between the lines. Enjoy!)

2) In close quarters, such as the hallway of your house, while investigating a bump in the dark night, with an auto-loader you might get struck in the eye by one of your own casings bouncing off a wall if you have to shoot. With a revolver this won't happen. Unless you wear glasses you're not likely to put on eye protection as you slip out of bed and grab your flashlight and gun.

[Tamara]

2) In close quarters, such as the hallway of your house, while investigating a bump in the dark night, with an auto-loader you might get struck in the eye by one of your own casings bouncing off a wall if you have to shoot. With a revolver this won't happen. Unless you wear glasses you're not likely to put on eye protection as you slip out of bed and grab your flashlight and gun.

On my daily commute to the grocery store, there could be a telephone pole across the road, which would make a mule a superior grocery-getter to my Forester. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

I have seen as many steel framed revolvers disabled by striking people as I have pistols. IMHO doing so should be reserved as an out of ammo last resort when a ball bat or a table leg is unavailable.

Just sayin.

[JHC]

On my daily commute to the grocery store, there could be a telephone pole across the road, which would make a mule a superior grocery-getter to my Forester. ;)

Forester? I got one too. A 2013. Almost 30K miles and I've not had it a year yet. Finest vehicle I've owned. Yeah, a telephone pole might high center the Subie.

[JHC]

I have seen as many steel framed revolvers disabled by striking people as I have pistols. IMHO doing so should be reserved as an out of ammo last resort when a ball bat or a table leg is unavailable.

Just sayin.

I briefly owned an old Detective Special with the most charming large dent in the trigger guard (it did not impede the trigger). Can only imagine how that got there.

I suppose strikes that focused energy into the ejector rod or cyclinder lock up would be most risky eh?

[Chuck Haggard]

I have seen the crane sprung, and a few that had the trigger guard bent into the trigger so bad you couldn't pull the trigger.

This sort of thing is why, according to legend, DA revolvers ended up with ejector rod shrouds on them.

[LSP552]

Despite old school use as such, revolvers can be fragile impact weapons. Even the trigger guard is pretty soft. I watched another trooper started the pry the drug dealer out of a car process by attempting to break the side window with a 2 1'2" 66. Afterwards, we discovered that the trigger guard was bent enough to prevent the trigger from being pulled in DA. Not a good thing.

Ken

[BarneyCallahan]

On my daily commute to the grocery store, there could be a telephone pole across the road, which would make a mule a superior grocery-getter to my Forester. ;)

That's why every Forester owner should keep a mule handy; and why old prospectors used mules instead of Foresters.

[BarneyCallahan]

I have seen the crane sprung, and a few that had the trigger guard bent into the trigger so bad you couldn't pull the trigger.

This sort of thing is why, according to legend, DA revolvers ended up with ejector rod shrouds on them.

I can see how a revolver could be damaged when used to inflict blunt force trama. However in my limited experience my model 14 (with an unprotected ejector rod) has faired well. On the other hand my 92f is pretty easily pushed far enough out of battery that a dead trigger results if pushed against an object. My new M&P 45 experiences a dead trigger even easier under similar circumstances. In my (again limited) experience the parts of my revolver that tended to make contact with combative suspects were the muzzle and the sharp, curved front edge of the frame where the crane goes in. (I'm not suggesting this as a preferred technique; but sometimes things happen spontaneously)

[Tamara]

This sort of thing is why, according to legend, DA revolvers ended up with ejector rod shrouds on them.

It's certainly why the PC13 (vice the standard M13) and the 3rd Model "Wolf & Klar" .44 Hand Ejectors (vice the 2nd Model .44 HEs) had ejector rod shrouds...

[BarneyCallahan]

Forester? I got one too. A 2013. Almost 30K miles and I've not had it a year yet. Finest vehicle I've owned. Yeah, a telephone pole might high center the Subie.

This challenges my mental stereotype of Forester owners as being liberal, anti gun flower children.

[Tamara]

This challenges my mental stereotype of Forester owners as being liberal, anti gun flower children.

I don't personally know any of those. Every Forester owner I know is a gun nut. Then a gain, everybody I know is a gun nut, it's just that some own Foresters, too. :D

[jetfire]

This challenges my mental stereotype of Forester owners as being liberal, anti gun flower children.

I also own a Fozzie. It's the pluckiest car I've ever owned.

[Chuck Haggard]

This challenges my mental stereotype of Forester owners as being liberal, anti gun flower children.


Old of my range buddies is on her second Forester now, and she is most definitely a gun nut.

My oldest daughter is a vegetarian, tattoo and dreads wearing cleaned up hippie chick, with a CCH, and a knife.

Books vs covers and all that.

[JHC]

I also own a Fozzie. It's the pluckiest car I've ever owned.

Did you post on this forum 18 months or a little more ago that everyone should have one? Somebody did. That's when I first took a good look. Just put Yoko Geolander ATS tires on it. Now praying for snow in Georgia. ;)

If a revolver isn't the best pistol whipping choice; what is? (trying to get back on topic)

[Chuck Haggard]

I can see how a revolver could be damaged when used to inflict blunt force trama. However in my limited experience my model 14 (with an unprotected ejector rod) has faired well. On the other hand my 92f is pretty easily pushed far enough out of battery that a dead trigger results if pushed against an object. My new M&P 45 experiences a dead trigger even easier under similar circumstances. In my (again limited) experience the parts of my revolver that tended to make contact with combative suspects were the muzzle and the sharp, curved front edge of the frame where the crane goes in. (I'm not suggesting this as a preferred technique; but sometimes things happen spontaneously)


Pushed out of battery ain't the same as damaged. And they aren't always damaged, but it's often enough that one needs to be very aware of the possibility and how that happens.

[BarneyCallahan]

Pushed out of battery ain't the same as damaged. And they aren't always damaged, but it's often enough that one needs to be very aware of the possibility and how that happens.

Hi Chuck. I appreciate your expertise. I agree with all your points here.

For clarity: I wasn't meaning to imply that an out-of-battery caused dead trigger constituted "damage." It is just a temporary, probably only momentary, disability of the pistol that could come at the worst time, during a surprise, point blank confrontation with an attacker. This is a particular temporary disability that one won't experience with a revolver. Though someone may be able to damage or disable their revolver by beating an attacker with it. (See my original entry in this thread.)

[Totem Polar]

If a revolver isn't the best pistol whipping choice; what is? (trying to get back on topic)
Oooh, ooo... (raises hand) I think I know this one: Ol' slabsides, correct? Straight up Mil Spec; no fancy extended anything, or ambi safeties to interfere with the beat down.

Right?

[Tamara]

Oooh, ooo... (raises hand) I think I know this one: Ol' slabsides, correct?

It's hard to argue with a great big steel bar, at least without needing stitches.

[LSP972]

It's hard to argue with a great big steel bar, at least without needing stitches.

Unless one has inadvertantly slipped the safety off and keeps one's finger on the trigger while using the pistol as a sap… and shoots the pregnant girlfriend, who is standing by watching the fight, in the shoulder.

Fortunately for the trooper in question, that occurred in the mid-70s, so the "victims" were paid off and he kept his job. That incident, or perhaps the infamous shooting involving an M-29 around the same time, was the catalyst for our agency mandating a 4" .357 revolver as the duty weapon.

.

[Tamara]

Unless one has inadvertantly slipped the safety off and keeps one's finger on the trigger while using the pistol as a sap… and shoots the pregnant girlfriend, who is standing by watching the fight, in the shoulder.

Yeah, things like that are why probably the hitty things and the shooty things should be separate things, at least ideally, I think.

(Heck, if the thing'd had a bad kitchen table trigger job done, would you even need to pull the trigger?)

[Chuck Haggard]

I friend of mine disabled his Commander by hitting a dude in the head, the bushing flew off and he vaguely saw his recoil spring launch across the parking lot.

The fight got REALLY ugly at that point, and he is lucky he got out of it alive and didn't end up needing to shoot.

[Dagga Boy]

While the "Hebrew Hammer" (4" S&W 25-5 duty gun) performed well in the times I had to do some in field brain surgery, the real tool I used a TON for this kind of work was the "Jewish Dentist" which was my full size Maglite. It is a far better tool for hitting hard things.
As far as contact shooting with the possibility of impact use...there was a time when most of my SWAT guys carried Ruger SP101's loaded with either full house .357 mag or hot +p .38's. We had some very specific operations they were used for. The way they are built, the Ruger Sp101's and snub GP100's are good choices in this role.

[Chuck Haggard]

I used my 640 with Pachmayr grips for that job, with 125gr JHPs, lots of blasty blast at close range, and a bullet that wouldn't exit.

[BWT]

I also own a Fozzie. It's the pluckiest car I've ever owned.

I also own a Subaru Forrester.

Nice cars.

ETA: Revolvers in the right situational context, are relevant. IMHO. I think BUGs and Magnums are still it, however, IMHO if someone will carry a revolver because of nostalgia or what have you and won't carry a semi-auto, then carry on with a Revolver. I was due to inherit my Grandfather's night stand S&W .357 (I think model 27 or 29? One of those is .356 and one is .44 and I can't remember which) it was sold two months before I turned 21, I was more than a little upset.

[NETim]

While the "Hebrew Hammer" (4" S&W 25-5 duty gun) performed well in the times I had to do some in field brain surgery, the real tool I used a TON for this kind of work was the "Jewish Dentist" which was my full size Maglite. It is a far better tool for hitting hard things.
As far as contact shooting with the possibility of impact use...there was a time when most of my SWAT guys carried Ruger SP101's loaded with either full house .357 mag or hot +p .38's. We had some very specific operations they were used for. The way they are built, the Ruger Sp101's and snub GP100's are good choices in this role.

GP100, the nightstick with a bangswitch.

[nycnoob]

While the "Hebrew Hammer" (4" S&W 25-5 duty gun) performed well in the times I had to do some in field brain surgery, the real tool I used a TON for this kind of work was the "Jewish Dentist" which was my full size Maglite. It is a far better tool for hitting hard things.
As far as contact shooting with the possibility of impact use...there was a time when most of my SWAT guys carried Ruger SP101's loaded with either full house .357 mag or hot +p .38's. We had some very specific operations they were used for. The way they are built, the Ruger Sp101's and snub GP100's are good choices in this role.

Nyeti,

Will you be offering a course on striking with non traditional impact weapons? I would be interested in such a course.

[EM_]

Nyeti,

Will you be offering a course on striking with non traditional impact weapons? I would be interested in such a course.

Not nyeti, but I think I can cover this having had some experience in the area. Take the light (aka non traditional impact weapon. See also, old school metal radio that weighed about 6 lbs.) in your weak hand. Hit bad guy. Hard. Repeat until compliance is gained. Reference it in report as NTIW as a stunning technique.

Here endeth the lesson.

:cool:

And instead of "Jewish Dentist," we preferred Maglite Shampoo. Kel-lite shampoo worked too, depending on where you were on the seniority list.

[nycnoob]

Here endeth the lesson.



Negative,

Neti refereed to
some very specific operations your technique is non specific.

I used to listen to the radio personality "the Grease Man" he would talk about "wood shampoos and Tom McCain Enemas" I can only imagine what the Dr would say if they ever retrieved a work boot from my rectum.

[EM_]

...there was a time when most of my SWAT guys carried Ruger SP101's loaded with either full house .357 mag or hot +p .38's. We had some very specific operations they were used for. The way they are built, the Ruger Sp101's and snub GP100's are good choices in this role.

Not trying to be snarky but I believe he meant the snub was used for very specific operations. We have done the same. I would expound but it is somewhat of a TTP I would rather not share open forum. I know other teams use them in the same manner.

[Dagga Boy]

Not trying to be snarky but I believe he meant the snub was used for very specific operations. We have done the same. I would expound but it is somewhat of a TTP I would rather not share open forum. I know other teams use them in the same manner.


Yep, the specific techniques were for the revolver in some SWAT operations, and it is not a open forum type of thing.

As far as the impact weapons….its sort of the beauty of clubs, we are almost genetically tuned to operate them. You grasp the tool like a club, and swing it as hard as possible at what you are trying to hit. It is the main reason I am very opposed to many of the flashlight techniques where you hold the light "not like a club". I was lucky to work in the city where Maglite was based, and Mag's kid was a cop at my agency. After a busy weekend the graveyard guys would be lined up at the customer service/repair shop to get our bulbs replaced and lights fixed up. It says something that the same Maglite I started with on day one of police work is still riding in my truck…..with a lot of dings and dents.

[nycnoob]

Thanks for the clarifications!

[JHC]

Yep, the specific techniques were for the revolver in some SWAT operations, and it is not a open forum type of thing.

As far as the impact weapons….its sort of the beauty of clubs, we are almost genetically tuned to operate them. You grasp the tool like a club, and swing it as hard as possible at what you are trying to hit. It is the main reason I am very opposed to many of the flashlight techniques where you hold the light "not like a club". I was lucky to work in the city where Maglite was based, and Mag's kid was a cop at my agency. After a busy weekend the graveyard guys would be lined up at the customer service/repair shop to get our bulbs replaced and lights fixed up. It says something that the same Maglite I started with on day one of police work is still riding in my truck…..with a lot of dings and dents.

Nice. Did you see the recent blog about the American guy that had an opportunity to get some instruction from Gurkhas on employing the kukri? :D Pretty much that.

[SeriousStudent]

Nice. Did you see the recent blog about the American guy that had an opportunity to get some instruction from Gurkhas on employing the kukri? :D Pretty much that.

Link when you have a moment, please. I'd love to read about that.

[jetfire]

This GP100 is pretty relevant. It's also sickawesome.

1969

[Clyde from Carolina]

That looks like a nice GP. I have a stock 3" GP100 that is on my short list of don't sell guns.

Built like a tank, versatile caliber, makes a nice blunt instrument when all the fun runs out. Great guns.

[jetfire]

That looks like a nice GP. I have a stock 3" GP100 that is on my short list of don't sell guns.

Built like a tank, versatile caliber, makes a nice blunt instrument when all the fun runs out. Great guns.

He Wiley Clapp guns seem like a good platform to build a serious defensive wheelgun on. From the factory with good sights, a good finish and decent stocks.

[Totem Polar]

He Wiley Clapp guns seem like a good platform to build a serious defensive wheelgun on. From the factory with good sights, a good finish and decent stocks.
Plus chamfered cylinder front edges, and alleged action work (and, it's true, the two exemplars that I've fondled had great triggers) If only they had chamfered the cylinder chambers at the factory. Plus, I'd make mine DAO, but I admit that not everyone sees the single action notch the way I do: as a vestigial design feature with no modern use.

[Tamara]

That should be a 581. Do you hear me, Smith? That should be a 581.

[LSP972]

That should be a 681. Do you hear me, Smith? That should be a 681.

FIFY. ;)

But it would have that communist lock, so…:(

.

[Tamara]

FIFY. ;)

But it would have that communist lock, so…:(

And that's why there isn't one, because half the old timers on the internet don't want Smith to make revolvers, they want them to make a time machine.

I feel your pain, Clint Smith; I wouldn't change a word.

[jetfire]

That should be a 581. Do you hear me, Smith? That should be a 581.

We live in a world where if you want a serious mid-sized revolver for self-defense and carry that doesn't have a lock, you have to buy a Ruger.

Or a used S&W.

[Tamara]

We live in a world where if you want a serious mid-sized revolver for self-defense and carry that doesn't have a lock, you have to buy a Ruger.

Or a used S&W.

Or buy a Smith and disable the lock. Or buy a Smith and don't worry about the lock because you didn't buy a .44 Magnum with a styrofoam frame and a riboflavin cylinder.

[SGT_Calle]

I'm pretty sure my 686 SSR has the aforementioned lock. I'm more sure I wouldn't notice the difference shooting side-by-side with a pre-lock version (serious revolver noob).
It is a relevant gun for me because our bosses want us carrying revolvers. I traded a gun for this one on what I thought was a great deal. The alternative was carrying the pass-around Taurus and never being able to practice with it.


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[Robinson]

I recently purchased what S&W was calling the Model 15 Classic model. Since it has a heavy barrel and shrouded ejector rod, it's actually more like a Model 19 chambered for .38 Special. Some folks on the Interenet have called it "an abomination", but I really like it. It has a nice bluing job, really attractive wood stocks that fit the square butt frame perfectly, and a smooth trigger. It may not measure up to the "real" classics of old but I am glad to have it, lock and all.

[LSP972]

Or buy a Smith and disable the lock. Or buy a Smith and don't worry about the lock because you didn't buy a .44 Magnum with a styrofoam frame and a riboflavin cylinder.

Inadvertant lock activation is not limited to the N frame loudenboomers shooting rhino rollers.

I saw it occur on an M-64 shooting 158gr RNL, and there were in any number of anecdotes on that thread on the S&W Forum regarding J frames doing it too.

Yes, the lock is relatively easy to disable. That's not the point.

.

[Tamara]

Inadvertant lock activation is not limited to the N frame loudenboomers shooting rhino rollers.

I saw it occur on an M-64 shooting 158gr RNL, and there were in any number of anecdotes on that thread on the S&W Forum regarding J frames doing it too.

How many other revolvers have you seen it happen with, with your own eyes? Just out of curiosity?

Anyhow, I am quite familiar with how it works. Yes, I read the thread. I even found a lot of the anecdata credible.

Going on about the S&W lock is the internet firearms forum equivalent of pining for the gold standard.

[jetfire]

Or buy a Smith and disable the lock. Or buy a Smith and don't worry about the lock because you didn't buy a .44 Magnum with a styrofoam frame and a riboflavin cylinder.

I did like my 686SSR a lot, that gun is really good right out of the box. It's a shame S&W doesn't offer the SSR package on a 2.5 inch L-frame.

[SGT_Calle]

I did like my 686SSR a lot, that gun is really good right out of the box. It's a shame S&W doesn't offer the SSR package on a 2.5 inch L-frame.

One of your write-ups on that gun really helped me decide to jump when the deal came up. Thanks Caleb.


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[Tamara]

I did like my 686SSR a lot, that gun is really good right out of the box. It's a shame S&W doesn't offer the SSR package on a 2.5 inch L-frame.

It's a shame Smith settled on 2.5" rather than 3" for the adjustable-sighted K- and L-frames. There's a reason the CS-x and 3" PC models bring the bucks.

[NETim]

It's a shame Smith settled on 2.5" rather than 3" for the adjustable-sighted K- and L-frames. There's a reason the CS-x and 3" PC models bring the bucks.

As if current prices for 2.5" 66's aren't crazy enough. :mad:

[Tamara]

As if current prices for 2.5" 66's aren't crazy enough. :mad:

I admit that I just don't get the market's fascination with the 2.5" adjustable sighted guns. :confused:

[JHC]

Link when you have a moment, please. I'd love to read about that.

Still looking. I found the long version with some phone a friend help. The short synapsis was the Gurkha demonstrated - 1) hold the kukri up over your head. 2) swing it down really hard 3) Repeat as required ;)


long version
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-nepalese-ghurkha-kukri-and-kukri-fighting-methods-2-of-2-series

[NETim]

I admit that I just don't get the market's fascination with the 2.5" adjustable sighted guns. :confused:

Um... they're cute?

[jetfire]

One of your write-ups on that gun really helped me decide to jump when the deal came up. Thanks Caleb.


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Glad you liked it. It really is one of the best guns coming out of the factory in Springfield these days. If I had one criticism it'd be that they don't also offer a six inch version. Which would rule some faces for ICORE classic or Bianchi.

[David Armstrong]

Did you post on this forum 18 months or a little more ago that everyone should have one? Somebody did. That's when I first took a good look. Just put Yoko Geolander ATS tires on it. Now praying for snow in Georgia. ;)

If a revolver isn't the best pistol whipping choice; what is? (trying to get back on topic)
Model 1836 Flintlock Pistol.:cool:

[NickA]

Still looking. I found the long version with some phone a friend help. The short synapsis was the Gurkha demonstrated - 1) hold the kukri up over your head. 2) swing it down really hard 3) Repeat as required ;)


long version
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-nepalese-ghurkha-kukri-and-kukri-fighting-methods-2-of-2-series

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/11/hurahyte.jpg

[LSP972]

How many other revolvers have you seen it happen with, with your own eyes? Just out of curiosity?

Going on about the S&W lock is the internet firearms forum equivalent of pining for the gold standard.

Just that M-64.

"Going on"??? All I did was mention it; YOU grabbed the ball and ran with it. I'm just taking the hand-off…;)


.

[Tamara]

Just that M-64.

I was honestly curious there.

I confess: I used to be adamantly anti-zit. I read lots of stories on the internet, but in all the actual time spent on the range, including the time I was managing a store with a high-volume indoor range, I saw two (I think) lock failures. One was a Model 357 and the reason I say "I think" is that I have vague recollections of an AirLite J putting its lock on, too, but I've slept since then.

Over that same amount of time, I cant tell you how many ejector rods I've seen back out and tie up the gun, but it has to be at least a dozen. And that's saying nothing of crane screws or cylinder latch screws vibrating out of the gun, rims or powder flakes under the star, bullets jumping crimp and tying up the gun, et dirty word cetera. Heck, I've seen exactly as many barrels shear at the shank and fly downrange over the same time period.

I know of very few shooters whose credibility I hold in no doubt, to include very serious revolver shooters and people who run firing lines, who have personally experienced or been present for more than one or two incidents.

I have personally and reluctantly come to the conclusion that statistically speaking, lock worries are probably exaggerated and easily cured with LocTite or a Dremel, but us revolver lovers are nothing if not conservative; I know people who still haven't come to terms with the loss of recessed chambers and pinned barrels, so I'm guessing the loathing of locks and MIM will persist likewise.

[Totem Polar]

The one fallacy is that ejector rods, ejector stars, various screws holding it all together, even relatively tight cylinder/forcing cone gaps (emphasis on "relatively") are all necessary potential problem areas; the wheelie can't very well get along without them.

I think we can all agree that a revolver with no lock added anywhere is under no such disadvantage.

[/shrug]

As an aside, the last 3" round butt K frame 64 that I considered bidding on (admittedly the fairly rare, and coveted by moi, NY-1 variant) ran up to $879. For a model 64. Worse yet, I still find myself second guessing for eventually sitting the auction out at that price.

[Tamara]

[/shrug]

Dang, I've been pwned! :eek:

[nycnoob]

I have personally and reluctantly come to the conclusion that statistically speaking, lock worries are probably exaggerated and easily cured with LocTite or a Dremel, but us revolver lovers are nothing if not conservative; I know people who still haven't come to terms with the loss of recessed chambers and pinned barrels, so I'm guessing the loathing of locks and MIM will persist likewise.

Thanks for such a cogent argument.

:)

[LSP972]

... statistically speaking, lock worries are probably exaggerated ...

Statistically speaking, I'd agree with you. But you know what they say about statistics…

I have two uses for revolvers these days; J frames for carrying, and various other S&Ws for nostalgia. Although, I'll admit that if I ran across a nice pre-shrouded-barrel Agent, I'd buy it just because.

I have a 360PD, with The Plug. That ingenious gizmo removes all worries. With the exception of a pre-lock 342 and a 242, all my other Smiths are "older". I don't have a problem with the MIM parts in a working gun.

I'd buy a 3.5" M-27, an original M-520, an M-21, or M-24 if one came along right. Not much interested in any others. So, yeah, I'm one of those guys you're talking about...:cool:

.

[jetfire]

Back to Tam's point about revolver purists, this is why Colt can never bring the Python back. If they did, they'd either have to retrain a bunch of new employees to make them "in the old style" and they'd cost $3,000. Or they could make it with MIM parts and sell it for a grand and all the purists would whine up a storm.

[BLR]

As if current prices for 2.5" 66's aren't crazy enough. :mad:

Price a Python lately?

Makes me queasy.

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[JodyH]

Cool a lock argument! How did I miss that?
My loaner S&W 66 locked itself in the middle of a CCW certification.
I was standing behind the student who was shooting it when it happened and unless they had Apollo Robbins like magic skills (and a key), it did it all on its own.
It took me 10 minutes to dig the key out of my range bag and everything's worked fine since. But I never trusted those locks again.
That afternoon I gutted the lock on my 360 pocket gun and made the decision that any ccw revolver I bought going forward would not have a lock or would have the lock gutted ricky-ticky chop-chop.

[Kyle Reese]

Price a Python lately?

Makes me queasy.

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What's a Korth run these days?

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[BLR]

Had a sighting a couple months ago. 4 large.

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[Tamara]

Price a Python lately?

Makes me queasy.

Yeah, but Smith collecting (with the exception of Triple Locks, Registered Magnums, and No.3's) was always the blue-collar alternative to the inflated price tags that have always attached to the Prancing Pony (or the "Dead Horse" as I like to call it. :p )

These days, though, I am not kidding when I say I am completely priced out of the Hand Ejector game. Fairly pedestrian 15s, 17s, and 19s are bringing low-end custom 1911 money these days. That's just crazy.

[BLR]

Yeah, but Smith collecting (with the exception of Triple Locks, Registered Magnums, and No.3's) was always the blue-collar alternative to the inflated price tags that have always attached to the Prancing Pony (or the "Dead Horse" as I like to call it. :p )

These days, though, I am not kidding when I say I am completely priced out of the Hand Ejector game. Fairly pedestrian 15s, 17s, and 19s are bringing low-end custom 1911 money these days. That's just crazy.

I destroyed a blue 4 in gun in college.



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[Tamara]

I destroyed a blue 4 in gun in college.

I passed on a .22 Diamondback for under four bills once. This thread made me go check the gun auction sites just now. I am literally physically queasy.

I paid less than those asking prices for a '99 Subaru. :eek:

[jetfire]

Collecting old Six Series Rugers is the new "used K-frame" market.

[LSP972]

That afternoon I gutted the lock on my 360 pocket gun and made the decision that any ccw revolver I bought going forward would not have a lock or would have the lock gutted ricky-ticky chop-chop.

I bought my 360PD in 2002. I hadn't purchased a new firearm in almost ten years, and in fact hadn't been doing much shooting, aside from mandatory quals and SWAT practices, in five years. In short, I was "out of the loop" in terms of new gun lore.

I bought The Beast sight unseen; read the literature (not closely enough, it would seem) and ordered it through a colleague who had an FFL. When I took delivery, I was… dumbfounded.

"Holy cow! What's this hole in the frame????"

And it went downhill from there…

Forever bless that fellow who produces The Plug, is all I can say.

.

[JHC]

Collecting old Six Series Rugers is the new "used K-frame" market.

Did you mean the Six Series are bringing premiums? I have that impression but maybe I'm mistaken.


If you can get by rough finishes (which I easily do for the character factor) there are still killer deals on S&Ws from individuals mostly.
Of late I've acquired:

Model 10 3" rough $275
Model 10 4" heavy barrel rough $275
Model 36 2" excellent finish $315 (albeit somewhat of an insider deal with the gunshop)
Model 36 3" rough $300

But good lock up and timing on all and good shooters. Every few years I go on an older S&W wheelie bender.

[jetfire]

Yeah, used Sixes are going for minimum 4 bills unless they're in kind of janky condition.

[Tamara]

If you can get by rough finishes (which I easily do for the character factor) there are still killer deals on S&Ws from individuals mostly.
Of late I've acquired:

Model 10 3" rough $275
Model 10 4" heavy barrel rough $275
Model 36 2" excellent finish $315 (albeit somewhat of an insider deal with the gunshop)
Model 36 3" rough $300

But good lock up and timing on all and good shooters. Every few years I go on an older S&W wheelie bender.

Run of the mill J-frame variants are still relatively reasonably priced, but five years ago $275 would have been a good deal on a nice 10, not a rough shooter.

Heck, it wasn't but five years or so ago I paid not too much more than that that for a prewar 5" M&P in a solid 95% condition. I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time, and I paid for the gun in nickels. Nickels had pictures of bees on 'em back then. "Gimme five bees for a quarter," we'd say...

[Tamara]

Yeah, used Sixes are going for minimum 4 bills unless they're in kind of janky condition.

I'm not ready for the day of the $450 Security Six. I'm just not.

[NEPAKevin]

Maybe fifteen years ago, and insurance adjuster who was retiring offered to sell me his collection of blued Pythons and snubbies that he purchased new 'back in the sixties' and never fired at a very fair price. I suggested that he should sell them to a collector as I would just shoot them.

[LSP972]

I'm not ready for the day of the $450 Security Six. I'm just not.

You know? There's something just not… right… with that.

.

[jetfire]

I'm not ready for the day of the $450 Security Six. I'm just not.

Look upon me and despair. (http://www.gunbroker.com/Revolvers/BI.aspx?Keywords=security+six&Sort=4)

There are some in there for $300, but all of those started as penny bids. Speed Sixes are just as bad, and the old postal inspector guns can fetch up to 800 beans. You can still fixed sighted Service Sixes for $200-300, so all is not lost.

[JHC]

Run of the mill J-frame variants are still relatively reasonably priced, but five years ago $275 would have been a good deal on a nice 10, not a rough shooter.

Heck, it wasn't but five years or so ago I paid not too much more than that that for a prewar 5" M&P in a solid 95% condition. I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time, and I paid for the gun in nickels. Nickels had pictures of bees on 'em back then. "Gimme five bees for a quarter," we'd say...

Oh yeah. I forgot. LOL

In the '90's I picked up one of the Royal Hong Kong Police Model 10s for $135. It's a favorite.

[Tamara]

Look upon me and despair. (http://www.gunbroker.com/Revolvers/BI.aspx?Keywords=security+six&Sort=4)

There are some in there for $300, but all of those started as penny bids. Speed Sixes are just as bad, and the old postal inspector guns can fetch up to 800 beans. You can still fixed sighted Service Sixes for $200-300, so all is not lost.

The guy at the 1500 who had the LNIB Speed Six in .380/200 finally sold it last year. I want to say he was asking five bills, and Bobbi came dangerously close to cashing out on it more than once.

[jetfire]

The guy at the 1500 who had the LNIB Speed Six in .380/200 finally sold it last year. I want to say he was asking five bills, and Bobbi came dangerously close to cashing out on it more than once.

There is .38/200 Service Six for sale right now on Gunbroker. It is pushing me right in my guntard button.

[BLR]

Oh yeah. I forgot. LOL

In the '90's I picked up one of the Royal Hong Kong Police Model 10s for $135. It's a favorite.

I'm a total junkie for that type of stuff.



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[Tamara]

Oh yeah. I forgot. LOL

In the '90's I picked up one of the Royal Hong Kong Police Model 10s for $135. It's a favorite.

Yeah, but I'm not even talking about the '90s; 2007/8 was, like, yesterday!

(Back in the '90s, during the glut of K-frame po-po trade-ins, when I was working at Forsyth Co. Pawn, I used to put together packages of a police trade-in K-frame, a box of JHP, a box of FMJ, a cleaning kit, eyes, ears, and a used Uncle Mike's sausage sack for like two bills. Anybody who bought a Hi-Point in those days must have been dropped on their head as a child, and I say that as someone who bought a new Hi-Point in '93 because I was too cool for a revolver...)

[NETim]

Run of the mill J-frame variants are still relatively reasonably priced, but five years ago $275 would have been a good deal on a nice 10, not a rough shooter.

Heck, it wasn't but five years or so ago I paid not too much more than that that for a prewar 5" M&P in a solid 95% condition. I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time, and I paid for the gun in nickels. Nickels had pictures of bees on 'em back then. "Gimme five bees for a quarter," we'd say...

It's smooth and mild... And refreshingly addictive.

[LSP972]

... Royal Hong Kong Police Model 10s ...

A CHERRY one of those came through the lab last month. It was used in a stick-up, so its smelter-bound.

We all had a moment of silence, and shed a tear…:(


.

[Malamute]

I passed on a .22 Diamondback for under four bills once. This thread made me go check the gun auction sites just now. I am literally physically queasy.

I paid less than those asking prices for a '99 Subaru. :eek:

I had a 4" 22 Diamondback in the mid-ish 80's. It was a sweet shooter. I broke the sear tip off the trigger off when trying to shoot some RWS CB loads that had thick rims. I replaced the trigger and sold it for about $225 I think. :(

I think about the various Pony guns I had and their prices today and I want to cry. Really miss the 60's National Match with the 22 Ace kit and the 1917 made 1911. And the nickel DS. And the several SAA's.

[Chuck Haggard]

A CHERRY one of those came through the lab last month. It was used in a stick-up, so its smelter-bound.

We all had a moment of silence, and shed a tear…:(


.

Your state laws are stupid.


At least in this regard.

[Tamara]

Your state laws are stupid.

I was going to say "...a crime against nature, man, and God," but I'll accept "stupid". ;)

[Clyde from Carolina]

Yeah. Internet cute-isms fail me. I have a sad? A sad fate indeed for a fine old piece of iron.

[TheTrevor]

I've had a few tachypsychia watching-an-impending-car-crash moments watching video or looking at pictures of gun-buyout results arrayed for the press. Most of the stuff is abject crap, but every once in a while there's something interesting and/or valuable. At the very least they should give individual & institutional C&R FFLs an opportunity to identify anything of historical interest and divert it away from the smelter.

[BigT]

So the equivelant of $350 The other day for a very very clean 3.5" M27-2 wasn't bad going :)

Every so often living in the third world has its perks

[Tamara]

So the equivelant of $350 The other day for a very very clean 3.5" M27-2 wasn't bad going :)

I'll just start hating you now and avoid the rush. :p

[JHC]

So the equivelant of $350 The other day for a very very clean 3.5" M27-2 wasn't bad going :)

Every so often living in the third world has its perks

O M G!!!!