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BaiHu
11-17-2013, 11:52 AM
I know nothing of the difference between IDPA and USPSA to make a difference in my life. This is really just about me getting my butt in gear with a new focus for training, so please try not to convince me to choose one over the other. After I spend some time on this, I'll probably post a query on that.

OK, down to my requests:

1. Suggestions on reading, links, YouTube videos, etc other than reading the rule book.

2. Suggestions on drills.

3. I see there are 2 types of laserlyte aids: a specific chambered one or the omni-chambered one. Am I right to assume that the specific chamber is best? I run a P30 LEM in 9mm only, so getting a sirt doesn't seem worth it to me. Do you also recommend the laserlyte target or just use the cartridge?

4. Fill me in on things I haven't thought about, which is probably a lot.

TIA,

BH

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Tirofijo2001
11-17-2013, 12:17 PM
1. Ben Stoeger's technique book and drill/dryfire book.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Pistol-Fundamental-Techniques-Competition/dp/1482009978/ref=la_B00AVNE7T6_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384708075&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Champion-Shooting-Proven-Process-Success/dp/1480271632/ref=la_B00AVNE7T6_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384708075&sr=1-2

There's the 3 GM Dvd if you prefer a DVD, but it doesn't have the depth or breadth as Ben's book. http://www.cedhk.com/shop/products/3GM-%252d-Shooting-Techniques-of-the-Grand-Masters-DVD.html

2. See Ben's "Champion Shooting." Second link above.

3. I've never used a laserlyte, and neither have most competitors. It's not a must have. Some might argue it's a detriment.

BaiHu
11-17-2013, 12:30 PM
1. & 2. Thanks
3. I just thought it might help confirm my sight placement, because I never miss when I dry fire :-P

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Jared
11-17-2013, 12:35 PM
I will second Ben Stoeger's stuff, and add Steve Anderson's Refinement and Repetition as a great way to start the dry fire process. From there, Ben's dry fire book really "opens the playbook up" so to speak.

I am not a terribly experienced USPSA shooter, as I started earlier this year, but it has motivated me to get off my butt and work like nothing else ever has before.

If the bug really bites you hard, Brian Enos has an excellent book called Practical Shooting: Beyond Fundamentals that is a good read as well.

Bob Vogel has some DVD's out there.


As far as the match itself, whichever you choose (USPSA or IDPA), I think you will have a good time. I showed up to my first one, knowing no one, and instantly met a lot of people that were willing to help me out and give me guidance and keep me safe. I had a wonderful time at that first match, and have kept coming back.

jetfire
11-17-2013, 06:42 PM
Get Mike Seeklander's book. It's the best training aide for practical shooting on the market for a newbie, because ir's written by someone who's capable of analyzing the methods used.

BaiHu
11-17-2013, 07:26 PM
Laserlyte, Caleb?

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jetfire
11-17-2013, 08:35 PM
Pass.

I'd rather dry fire.

BaiHu
11-17-2013, 08:46 PM
I dry fire, but I'd imagine it's a bit more helpful to see if I'm actually hitting my target, no? As I joked above, I never miss when I dry fire.

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BaiHu
11-17-2013, 08:55 PM
For clarification's sake, I mean the laserlyte snap cap thing, not the laserlyte target thing.

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Mr_White
11-18-2013, 11:51 AM
I dry fire, but I'd imagine it's a bit more helpful to see if I'm actually hitting my target, no? As I joked above, I never miss when I dry fire.

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I used to dry fire at one time (just straight trigger presses only) with a laser bore sighter in my G17. It was useful for a time, but eventually had to go. It is a great tool to learn the feel of running a trigger so the gun doesn't move at all - the laser makes it obvious when you move the gun. But you can see that in the sight picture too, even though it's less easy to see.

The issue in the long term with using a laser in dry fire where you are practicing to use iron sights, is that attention is drawn to the laser dot on the target. But that's not where you should be looking when you shoot an iron sighted pistol. It's the sight picture you should be reading, which is a major skill to habituate in dry fire. You need to be looking at the sight picture to determine whether you 'hit' in dry fire, not looking for feedback coming from a light on the target. Be ruthless. Apply the Ronin doctrine to your sight picture in dry fire - 'if there is any doubt, then there is no doubt.' If you are wondering whether you would have hit, figure you missed.

JeffJ
11-18-2013, 11:53 AM
I've got a SIRT, and really the only real reason is to have a not-real gun that I can dry fire without fear of accident. The laser is kinda neat, but you're better off just learning to read your sights.

FWIW, I break down dry fire into 2 areas - trigger control & target acquisition

For trigger control I do a lot of wall drills, slow fire at small targets, more rapid fire at a single target, etc.

For target acquisition I do draws, transitions, reloads, etc. but I rarely (not never) pull the trigger. I think it's especially helpful to practice things like draws without a trigger pull. I also use a timer for most of my dry fire, some don't

Steve Anderson is another good resource

I haven't shot IDPA in years so this might apply more to USPSA, but I think you'll find that things like reloads and transitions are more heavily emphasized in competition than in more traditional defensive training. I would recommend spending the majority of your time practicing target transitions. I think it's a good rule of thumb that an A zone out to about 10 yards no more than about a yard apart, your transitions should match your splits. I'd try to achieve that and then tailor your practice based on experiences in matches.

Mr_White
11-18-2013, 11:56 AM
I've got a SIRT, and really the only real reason is to have a not-real gun that I can dry fire without fear of accident. The laser is kinda neat, but you're better off just learning to read your sights.

Me too and I couldn't agree more.

BaiHu
11-18-2013, 12:19 PM
Thanks guys, that makes sense and for the first time this site just saved me money-lol!

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JeffJ
11-18-2013, 12:44 PM
Thanks guys, that makes sense and for the first time this site just saved me money-lol!

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You know you need a double belt, 5 ghost/CR speed/DAA mag pouches, a DOH holster, a Dillon 650, cleats... :D

BaiHu
11-18-2013, 01:34 PM
You know you need a double belt, 5 ghost/CR speed/DAA mag pouches, a DOH holster, a Dillon 650, cleats... :D

Yeah, I'm gonna get by on a frequent flyer, Comptac OWB, double mag pouches, buying cheap reman ammo, and wearing my sneakers :p

Mr_White
11-18-2013, 01:43 PM
You know you need a double belt, 5 ghost/CR speed/DAA mag pouches, a DOH holster, a Dillon 650, cleats... :D


Yeah, I'm gonna get by on a frequent flyer, Comptac OWB, double mag pouches, buying cheap reman ammo, and wearing my sneakers :p

Now you know I got nothing against the game. None of that is necessary though, except maybe the Dillon. BaiHu, you got clothes, AIWB rigs, mag pouches, good pistols - you could spend $0 on game equipment and shoot Limited if you felt like it. That would be a low financial commitment way to try it out too.

BaiHu
11-18-2013, 01:46 PM
Will they let me run AIWB? At a local match? I broke my comptac out for no reason?

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Mr_White
11-18-2013, 02:41 PM
Will they let me run AIWB? At a local match? I broke my comptac out for no reason?

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If it is an official USPSA match, yes, they should.

IWB is legal, holster forward of the hip is legal, and IWB forward of the hip is legal. The holster still needs to meet their other safety requirements. I am sure that any of the AIWB holsters popular on this forum would qualify. Keep in mind that AIWB is legal in Open, Limited, and Limited-10. It is not legal in Production, which is where most of our guns belong, even though they also legal in Open, Limited, and Limited-10 (the race gun divisions.) Concealment is legal in all divisions, though I realize that may actually be illegal under NJ law.

Shooting AIWB Limited Minor from concealment is a poor way to win the game, but fun for some of us and if we already own the gear, requires no additional money. If your participation in USPSA becomes oriented solely toward you doing as well as possible in the game, you would be wise to abandon AIWB and concealment and shoot a straight up Production rig or a game rig for whatever division you are shooting.

BaiHu
11-18-2013, 02:46 PM
I just want to get better at what I'm doing. I could care less about gaming anything. Thanks for the advice and information.

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JeffJ
11-18-2013, 02:54 PM
Yeah, I'm gonna get by on a frequent flyer, Comptac OWB, double mag pouches, buying cheap reman ammo, and wearing my sneakers :p

That's how we all start...
Seriously though, you won't really be giving anything up going that way. The double belt is more comfortable and convenient, especially if you end up shooting production or L10 just because it's easier to carry 4-5 mags on the belt and not worry about belt loops, they're also stiffer than your 5 stich.

AIWB is USPSA legal for everything expect single stack and production, although - some local clubs are not necessarily clued into this and may either tell you it's not legal or simple let you know that they are not comfortable with it. I'd ask and bring a strong side OWB just in case. I personally don't think that your first match is the time to pull out the rulebook and educate a new to you USPSA club, but that's just me.

I would also recommend shooting limited regardless of what holster you go with, even though you'll be at a disadvantage shooting minor. Stage planning takes some match seasoning and having more reloads just makes it that much more difficult.

BaiHu
11-18-2013, 03:27 PM
I concur. Especially about the newb coming in and explaining how AIWB is totally cool, seriously, don't worry about it :-P

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BaiHu
11-24-2013, 07:08 PM
I managed to make it through unscathed today despite the freezing conditions of my first match.

The match had 7 stages and called for 180 rounds IIRC.

Negatives:
1. Sub 30 degree weather and somewhere near 10 with the wind chill.
2. Had more clothes on than I would have liked in order to stay warm.
3. Had to wear gloves or risk not being able to move my hands at all.
4. Had a disastrous 2nd stage, because I lost track of the stage movement and 2 shots were just difficult given my height. I had 1 No Shoot, 2 Misses and 4 C's. I think my hit factor was 1.9 :(
5. The 5th stage I was cranking, but I couldn't slow down when I needed to and I ended up with 4 C's, 2 D's and 2 Misses. Hit factor was near 2.5 :mad:

Positives:
1. First match I had only 2 C's and a hit factor just over 3. From what someone told me, that was a decent balance of speed and accuracy. I'll take it for my first of 7 stages.
2. The 3rd stage I had all A's and had a hit factor just over 3.
3. In the end, since I was 1 of 2 new shooters in our group of 10 and 2 guys got DQ'd, I couldn't complain.
4. The rest of my stages were in the pocket for me. About a 3 in hit factor and I hung around 1-4 C's.
5. IIRC, I must have hit the A zones about 80% or higher.

I hope I can get a copy of the results. I have no clue if that's possible. See if my memory was close to my report.


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punkey71
11-24-2013, 09:06 PM
If it was an official USPSA match the results should show up here when the club submits them.

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/localmatches.php

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BaiHu
11-24-2013, 09:07 PM
Yup. Saw that and it's not up yet, nor previous matches this year from what I saw.

FYI, Old Bridge, NJ was the club I was at...

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punkey71
11-24-2013, 09:20 PM
Gotcha. Nor sure what to tell you.

Do you know if it was an official USPSA local match or a USPSA "type" match?




Yup. Saw that and it's not up yet, nor previous matches this year from what I saw.

FYI, Old Bridge, NJ was the club I was at...

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BaiHu
11-24-2013, 09:22 PM
Thought it was local, but as the title suggests, I'm a newb. I had to be a USPSA member in order to enter the match :confused:

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PPGMD
11-25-2013, 09:27 AM
That is a first. I've never seen a USPSA club that required a USPSA membership to shoot a club level match.

punkey71
11-25-2013, 09:45 AM
That is a first. I've never seen a USPSA club that required a USPSA membership to shoot a club level match.

Yeah, me neither. We recommend and encourage it but locals matches don't require it. If they did I would hope they would send scores to USPSA. That's part of what you are paying USPSA for.

OP, I would ask someone thats a regular at those matches what the deal is.


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BaiHu
11-25-2013, 09:53 AM
Thanks guys. Already emailed the match director. rsa-otc might know of this club and it's protocol. Maybe he'll chime in.

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Sal Picante
11-25-2013, 09:58 AM
That is a first. I've never seen a USPSA club that required a USPSA membership to shoot a club level match.

Depends on the club/range... We require it since I need to vet out that folks who are coming to matches have some experience...

Found your scores: http://www.obcats.com/portal/viewpage.php?page_id=10 (http://www.obcats.com/portal/viewpage.php?page_id=10)

;)

BaiHu
11-25-2013, 10:08 AM
Depends on the club/range... We require it since I need to vet out that folks who are coming to matches have some experience...

Found your scores: http://www.obcats.com/portal/viewpage.php?page_id=10 (http://www.obcats.com/portal/viewpage.php?page_id=10)

;)

THANKS!!

Turns out my memory wasn't too bad. I'm #9 in stage 1. For some reason my score for stage 4 is omitted :mad:
I'll have to inquire about that :confused:

ETA: What's odd to me, b/c I don't understand the scoring, is in Stage #2 I made all 80 pts, but it doesn't show that I had 100% of all the pts in the stage. However, the #1 guy had 76 pts and he was shown as getting 100% of the stage's points??

PPGMD
11-25-2013, 10:36 AM
Depends on the club/range... We require it since I need to vet out that folks who are coming to matches have some experience...

Here is the million dollar question, is that allowed in the rules?

Many people seem to forget that local rules require approval from HQ in USPSA, which makes them effectively banned in USPSA as HQ rarely approves local rules.

JeffJ
11-25-2013, 10:42 AM
THANKS!!

Turns out my memory wasn't too bad. I'm #9 in stage 1. For some reason my score for stage 4 is omitted :mad:
I'll have to inquire about that :confused:

ETA: What's odd to me, b/c I don't understand the scoring, is in Stage #2 I made all 80 pts, but it doesn't show that I had 100% of all the pts in the stage. However, the #1 guy had 76 pts and he was shown as getting 100% of the stage's points??

The winner of the stage gets 100% of the stage points and then stage points are distributed based on percentage of the winner. What most likely happened is that the guy who got 76 pts was faster than you and therefore his Hit Factor was higher. Hit Factor is points/time, it is basically an efficiency measurement.

For example, an A is worth 5 points, if we both shoot a stage with 1 target and both shoot an A, then we both receive 5 points which is 100% of the points on that stage. However, time is also a factor, so lets say I take 5 seconds and you take 10 seconds - my hit factor is 1 (5 points/5 seconds) and your hit factor is .5 (5 points/10 seconds). If we are the only 2 competitors, I would receive 100% of the stage points, and you would receive 50% of the stage points.

Hit factor scoring rewards efficiency, its a measure of points per second. So in your match, the other shooter dropped 4 points which was probably 2 C zone hits instead of A zone, but was able to do it a little faster than you and edged you out on the points per second.

It took me a while for HF scoring to "click" but really I think it's a good way to measure scores, especially shooting minor it makes fast and accurate both pretty important.

punkey71
11-25-2013, 10:42 AM
If memory serves, whoever wins the stage based on hit factor wins ALL the stage points.

Your stage points are based on a percentage of the stages first place finisher. If the stage was worth 100 points the winner (based in hit factor) gets 100 points. If your hit factor was 75% of theirs you would get 75 stage points.



THANKS!!

Turns out my memory wasn't too bad. I'm #9 in stage 1. For some reason my score for stage 4 is omitted :mad:
I'll have to inquire about that :confused:

ETA: What's odd to me, b/c I don't understand the scoring, is in Stage #2 I made all 80 pts, but it doesn't show that I had 100% of all the pts in the stage. However, the #1 guy had 76 pts and he was shown as getting 100% of the stage's points??




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Mr_White
11-25-2013, 10:55 AM
I managed to make it through unscathed today despite the freezing conditions of my first match.

The match had 7 stages and called for 180 rounds IIRC.

Negatives:
1. Sub 30 degree weather and somewhere near 10 with the wind chill.
2. Had more clothes on than I would have liked in order to stay warm.
3. Had to wear gloves or risk not being able to move my hands at all.
4. Had a disastrous 2nd stage, because I lost track of the stage movement and 2 shots were just difficult given my height. I had 1 No Shoot, 2 Misses and 4 C's. I think my hit factor was 1.9 :(
5. The 5th stage I was cranking, but I couldn't slow down when I needed to and I ended up with 4 C's, 2 D's and 2 Misses. Hit factor was near 2.5 :mad:

Positives:
1. First match I had only 2 C's and a hit factor just over 3. From what someone told me, that was a decent balance of speed and accuracy. I'll take it for my first of 7 stages.
2. The 3rd stage I had all A's and had a hit factor just over 3.
3. In the end, since I was 1 of 2 new shooters in our group of 10 and 2 guys got DQ'd, I couldn't complain.
4. The rest of my stages were in the pocket for me. About a 3 in hit factor and I hung around 1-4 C's.
5. IIRC, I must have hit the A zones about 80% or higher.

I hope I can get a copy of the results. I have no clue if that's possible. See if my memory was close to my report.


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But did you have a good time? Will you compete more in the future?

Sure sounds like you did well shooting a safe match in the face of cold weather, extra clothing, and gloves.

In any case, congratulations on putting yourself out there and getting started!

BaiHu
11-25-2013, 11:16 AM
It took me a while for HF scoring to "click" but really I think it's a good way to measure scores, especially shooting minor it makes fast and accurate both pretty important.



Your stage points are based on a percentage of the stages first place finisher. If the stage was worth 100 points the winner (based in hit factor) gets 100 points. If your hit factor was 75% of theirs you would get 75 stage points.

Savvy. Thanks, I do recall that being told to me during the safety briefing, but my teeth were chattering too much to put it in the long-term memory bank :o


But did you have a good time? Will you compete more in the future?

Sure sounds like you did well shooting a safe match in the face of cold weather, extra clothing, and gloves.

In any case, congratulations on putting yourself out there and getting started!

Yes, despite freezing my arse off.
Yes, despite looking to understand the differences b/w IDPA/USPSA/KSTG. I think the USPSA method is not how I think about approaching 'bad guys'. So much so that I got a bizarre compliment that went like this:

RO: You a cop?
Me: No, but is this a 'good cop' compliment or a 'bad cop' complement.
RO: Good. You're methodical and you compress and drive your gun from target to target like a SWAT guy and despite you knowing the stage, you still act like the threats are new or real. If you want to get a higher hit factor, speed up and don't hit as many Alphas.
Me: Thanks and I'm good just going for Alphas and taking a little more time right now.
RO: Then you're doing fine.

From what I gather, IDPA/KSTG are more mentality. Perhaps that's another thread that has already been covered, but maybe worth revisiting :confused:

Thanks for all of your input and encouragement.

BaiHu
11-25-2013, 11:21 AM
One last question for all of you. Why am I listed in the first 10 places? There were about 60+ guys yesterday. Does this mean I was in the top 10 of all of the production guys?? FYI: I'm not fishing for a compliment, I just don't know at all what I'm looking at-LOL!

JeffJ
11-25-2013, 11:35 AM
Looks like you were 10 out of 10 in production, one guy has all 0s and 2 DQs, so 13 production shooters, 2 DQs one guy either left early or didn't show up or something. I'm seeing 42nd overall which is really pretty good for Production with only 13 prod. shooters. The extra reloads and minor scoring can really beat you up on combined results, which is why they aren't official, but everybody always looks at them;)

Really it looks pretty good for your first match, got a lot of points, not too many penalties.

This is, of course, assuming that I correctly figured out your real name on the score sheets.

Part of shooting style is probably more "tactical" vs. "gamer" part of it is match conditioning too. Even if you keep shooting more "cop like" your stage dissections will improve as you shoot more matches.

BaiHu
11-25-2013, 11:39 AM
Looks like you were 10 out of 10 in production, one guy has all 0s and 2 DQs, so 13 production shooters, 2 DQs one guy either left early or didn't show up or something. I'm seeing 42nd overall which is really pretty good for Production with only 13 prod. shooters. The extra reloads and minor scoring can really beat you up on combined results, which is why they aren't official, but everybody always looks at them;)

Really it looks pretty good for your first match, got a lot of points, not too many penalties.

This is, of course, assuming that I correctly figured out your real name on the score sheets.

Part of shooting style is probably more "tactical" vs. "gamer" part of it is match conditioning too. Even if you keep shooting more "cop like" your stage dissections will improve as you shoot more matches.

Thanks. It's Darren and how did you find the 42nd overall? If this part of the thread needs to be moved, lemme know mods.

Mr_White
11-25-2013, 11:43 AM
Thanks. It's Darren and how did you find the 42nd overall? If this part of the thread needs to be moved, lemme know mods.

Here are the combined overall (all divisions listed together) results where you can see the 42nd.

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-scores/2013-11-24/Pistol%20Finals%20%20All%20divisions.htm

Here are the overall Production results where you can see the 10th.

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-scores/2013-11-24/Pistol%20Finals%20%20Production.htm

I also saw your results omitted on stage 4. From eyeballing it, if you finished mid-pack on that stage, I would guess you'd move up about two places or so in the Production results to 8th or so. But it depends on how you did on that stage.

JeffJ
11-25-2013, 11:45 AM
"Pistol Finals All Divisions" is combined totals for all competitors regardless of division - this is the "not official" total standings
"Pistol All Divisons" is basically the same thing, stage by stage
"Pistol Finals Production" is the overall production standings
"Pistol Production" is production stage by stage

BaiHu
11-25-2013, 11:47 AM
Here are the combined overall (all divisions listed together) results where you can see the 42nd.

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-scores/2013-11-24/Pistol%20Finals%20%20All%20divisions.htm

Here are the overall Production results where you can see the 10th.

http://www.obcats.com/obcats-scores/2013-11-24/Pistol%20Finals%20%20Production.htm

I also saw your results omitted on stage 4. From eyeballing it, if you finished mid-pack on that stage, I would guess you'd move up about two places or so in the Production results to 8th or so. But it depends on how you did on that stage.

Thanks for tutoring me guys, I'm starting to work my way around the site now with your help. Stage 4 was by far better than my other two bad stages, which were stages 5 and 6. I'm guessing my hit factor was just over 2.5.

Sal Picante
11-25-2013, 01:43 PM
Here is the million dollar question, is that allowed in the rules?

Many people seem to forget that local rules require approval from HQ in USPSA, which makes them effectively banned in USPSA as HQ rarely approves local rules.

Yes. Why would it be disallowed?

PPGMD
11-25-2013, 02:04 PM
Yes. Why would it be disallowed?

Because it discourages new shooters.

Who wants to pay $65 to try something that they aren't sure that they will like.

Sal Picante
11-25-2013, 05:52 PM
Because it discourages new shooters.

Who wants to pay $65 to try something that they aren't sure that they will like.

First off, requiring USPSA membership is "recommended" at a level 1 match, but not mandated. We then, observe the recommendation and require it...

You're right, though, some clubs use matches as a way to encourage participation and there are plenty of outdoor clubs that do that during the summer months. During the winter, however, time and space are at a premium and we need to constrain the matches to people serious about the sport. Our 4-stage, Wednesday night matches sell out in minutes and we've got to cap the crowd at 30 shooters anyway.

Lastly, associate membership to USPSA is $25.00. Sure you don't get the magazine, but whatev...

BaiHu
11-26-2013, 10:52 AM
Stage 4 was posted: http://www.obcats.com/obcats-scores/2013-11-24/Pistol%20Production.htm

Came in 7th of 10 on this stage
136/140 pts
HF of 3.0979

BaiHu
11-26-2013, 11:29 AM
BTW, nice call OAK. You nailed my potential standings.

raks
11-29-2013, 03:08 PM
I'll chip in and say that this is bad advice, and your answer/attitude are spot on:


RO: ... If you want to get a higher hit factor, speed up and don't hit as many Alphas.
Me: Thanks and I'm good just going for Alphas and taking a little more time right now.

I teach and prefer to think of the outer scoring zones as penalties instead of points. In production (or any minor scoring) you take a 40% penalty hitting a C instead of an A. The only situations where I will 'accept' a C over an A is with moving targets or very tight partial shots where I know that the time to ensure an A will turn into a disadvantage.

PPGMD
11-29-2013, 03:30 PM
You're right, though, some clubs use matches as a way to encourage participation and there are plenty of outdoor clubs that do that during the summer months. During the winter, however, time and space are at a premium and we need to constrain the matches to people serious about the sport. Our 4-stage, Wednesday night matches sell out in minutes and we've got to cap the crowd at 30 shooters anyway.

I am meh on that. What if they have the interest in the winter that might not be there in the summer? Personally I think that all matches should leave room for one or two new shooters. Right now practical shooting isn't consider a sport by the government, or even some of the shooting press. I think we need to constantly try to expand our sport.


I teach and prefer to think of the outer scoring zones as penalties instead of points. In production (or any minor scoring) you take a 40% penalty hitting a C instead of an A. The only situations where I will 'accept' a C over an A is with moving targets or very tight partial shots where I know that the time to ensure an A will turn into a disadvantage.

I've always told people that you should go at the pace that allows you to shoot 90-95% of the points available regardless of division. Look at the top ten finishers at any of the national matches, almost all of them are in that range, or very close to it (within a percent).

BaiHu
11-29-2013, 03:35 PM
Thanks. Good food for thought you guys and it's what OAK recommended and that's how I played it out. Now I have a few months off until the next match.

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