The US just destroyed 6 tons of ivory...

[BaiHu]

Caveat: I could totally be wrong, but....

What retard thought this up? Even Mish's suggestion is stupid and pointless. The larger issue newly created is that the US just blew the ivory market sky high, because they took 6 tons off the street, thereby making it even more lucrative to poach ivory. Or, even better, sell it for a dollar a pound and destroy the value of the market. Tell them every time we get our hands on your ivory, we'll lower the price by ten cents.



U.S. Crushes 6 Tons of Ivory, Some of it Exquisitely Carved, to "Send Message" to Poachers; Does This Make Sense?
http://feedly.com/k/18EyjyH


I have a simple question: What if instead of crushing that ivory, the US auctioned the ivory with all proceeds going to African nations for anti-poaching efforts?

(FULL article redacted per forum Copyright rules ... please DO NOT REPOST ENTIRE ARTICLES on this forum -- ToddG)

[Chuck Haggard]

None of that matters, all that matters is that the people involved feel like they did something significant, whether they actually did or not.

[mc1911]

Don't be ridiculous. You are suggesting that the gov't apply logical, free-market solutions to address a problem. That's just crazy talk.

[BaiHu]

*lowers head and tucks tail between legs*

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[Chuck Whitlock]

All show and no substance.
Typical.

[klewis]

There's also the assumption that our current government understands, or supports, a free market economy...

[Odin Bravo One]

Would be much more effective at sending a message by hunting the poachers, pulling their teeth, and selling them on the international market.

[BLR]

Would be much more effective at sending a message by hunting the poachers, pulling their teeth, and selling them on the international market.

:cool:

I like this idea. A lot.

[Dagga Boy]

Would be much more effective at sending a message by hunting the poachers, pulling their teeth, and selling them on the international market.

I like this a lot myself. They could have saved all that ivory and the "International Anti-Poacher Killing Team" should all be carrying 1911's with poached ivory grips along with N frame revolvers with the same grips. You can do some great dental work with N frames. I really love Ivory and hate poachers. There are so many good programs out there now for proper game management that provides a ton of positives across the board and can provide uses for every single part of the animals, while also keeping their numbers up.

[Tamara]

The larger issue newly created is that the US just blew the ivory market sky high, because they took 6 tons off the street...

That is not, strictly speaking, correct. The six tons is all the ivory that US customs has taken "off the street" over the last however many years.

Still, if the Wo(S)D should teach us anything, it's that keeping something confined to the black market is nothing but price supports for criminals.

[TCinVA]

When I'm president/dictator (because there appears to be a narrowing gap between those two positions) I'm going to appoint Sean as "Secretary of Solutions"

[JHC]

As I understand it, the foot soldier poachers are extremely poor and some ivory or horn means they can feed their family for quite some time. Strong market forces there.

[Tamara]

As I understand it, the foot soldier poachers are extremely poor and some ivory or horn means they can feed their family for quite some time. Strong market forces there.

Yeah, and the guys farming the coca leaves don't commute to work in Bentleys either. What of it?

[RoyGBiv]

I don't understand this decision (to destroy it).

1. The ivory was confiscated from whoever... Poachers directly, folks bringing it through US Customs, etc.. So.. these folks felt the pain of losing something they invested in. A good thing, since it's illegal.

2. Destroying it is like spanking an adult... You've already made your point (confiscation, legal penalties), the spanking is just for show... "look what I accomplished". Nothing is really accomplished by destroying the ivory... it's just our government showing off. Spiking the ball.

3. A better solution?..... Sell it, auction it...
Let 100% of proceeds benefit conservation and protection of ivory sources.
Why??? Because that accomplishes good, positive things beyond spiking the ball...

A. Raises fund for conservation.
B. Satisfies market demand (customers for illegal ivory have the opportunity to satisfy their desire for the material through legal means), reducing the demand for illegal ivory.
C. If you're into that "spike the ball" thing, what better way to spike the ball than to collect revenue from illegal ivory and put the money towards protecting ivory.?? Pent-up demand is reduced.

I suppose it could be argued that adding ivory to the legal market might increase demand.. Just the visibility of it. The "he's got some, I want some too" factor. I still think auctioning it does more good than harm..

[NickA]

When I'm president/dictator (because there appears to be a narrowing gap between those two positions) I'm going to appoint Sean as "Secretary of Solutions"

Make sure you put his face on the $100 bill, with the motto “Kickin' A** and Gettin' Paid", a la President Camacho :D

[LittleLebowski]

I wonder how banning buffalo and passenger pigeon hunting would have affected the US in the 19th century.......

[Tamara]

I wonder how banning buffalo and passenger pigeon hunting would have affected the US in the 19th century.......

Imperfect analogy. Instead: "I wonder what outlawing the sale of bison meat would do to the surviving bison population?"

[LittleLebowski]

Imperfect analogy. Instead: "I wonder what outlawing the sale of bison meat would do to the surviving bison population?"

Fair enough :D The important part is that we tell other people what to do with their resources ;)

[Drang]

Imperfect analogy. Instead: "I wonder what outlawing the sale of bison meat would do to the surviving wild bison population?"

FIFY

[JHC]

Yeah, and the guys farming the coca leaves don't commute to work in Bentleys either. What of it?

I wouldn't consider shooting them for sport or enforcement.

[BaiHu]

The destruction part of it is what really smacks of 'not being thought through'. Anyone of us has come up with better suggestions and Sean M is probably going to take home the gold with his. Perhaps if you tell Kpn Kaos and Kid Shotgun that they can use a drone, they'll be up for implementing Sean's plan :p

[Tamara]

I believe the problem is that nearly all economic incentives surrounding elephants right now are perverse ones.

The poachers already risk being shot. Making the risk greater will breed better, more violent poachers. What's Bantu for "Los Zetas"?

What's in it for the locals if they keep the elephants alive, other than Happy Thoughts from us well-fed middle class Americans?

[BLR]

I sincerely hope you're not marginalizing my happy thoughts.

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[Odin Bravo One]

The poachers already risk being shot. Making the risk greater will breed better, more violent poachers.

There is a pretty big difference between risking being shot, and being actively hunted.

[NEPAKevin]

The destruction part of it is what really smacks of 'not being thought through'.

Like maybe sending the confiscated ivory to China and increasing supply end, i.e. dumping it on the market, lowering the value/demand and taking a miniscule chunk out of the national debt?

[BLR]

I'd bet there are a couple Afrikaners that could expound on that.

[BaiHu]

Like maybe sending the confiscated ivory to China and increasing supply end, i.e. dumping it on the market, lowering the value/demand and taking a miniscule chunk out of the national debt?

My point exactly.

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[JHC]

I believe the problem is that nearly all economic incentives surrounding elephants right now are perverse ones.

The poachers already risk being shot. Making the risk greater will breed better, more violent poachers. What's Bantu for "Los Zetas"?

What's in it for the locals if they keep the elephants alive, other than Happy Thoughts from us well-fed middle class Americans?

^ Agree. And I can't remember the latest - are these elephants endangered or not? ;)

[LittleLebowski]

Has anyone else gotten the urge to raise elephants for their ivory now :D

[NEPAKevin]

Has anyone else gotten the urge to raise elephants for their ivory now :D

While you are waiting for the tusks to mature: Elephant Dung Beer (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/04/18/elephant-dung-beer-sells-out-almost-immediately/) and Elephant Dung Coffee
(http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/12/07/gimmick-or-gastronomy-elephant-herd-in-thailand-leaving-its-mark-on-exotic/) I poop thee not.

[Erik]

http://www.societyofrobots.com/images/robot_sumo_stampy_simpsons.jpg

[Tamara]

Also paper (http://www.elephantdungpaper.com/).

[Slavex]

A good friend of mine did poaching enforcement for about 15 years in Africa, it was definitely people hunting.

[NEPAKevin]

WSJ: Botswana's Elephants (http://online.wsj.com/articles/political-diary-botswanas-elephants-1403886974)


On Thursday the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, a federal agency housed at the Department of the Interior, effectively banned the sale and trade of antique ivory within the U.S. In so doing, the federal government has made the owners of precious chess sets and decorative musical instruments hoarders of valueless period pieces. Not only is this intrusive behavior bad for business, it's no good for the elephants the department claims to be protecting.

[RevolverRob]

Like maybe sending the confiscated ivory to China and increasing supply end, i.e. dumping it on the market, lowering the value/demand and taking a miniscule chunk out of the national debt?

Monetizing something is a double edge sword. By partaking in the sale of confiscated ivory, you are making it legitimate to sell ivory. Not the ideal situation when what you want to accomplish is NOT poaching elephants for ivory nor selling or using illegal ivory and since all ivory is now illegal, that's all ivory. I run into the very real ethical issue associated with fossils all the time. Fossils are cool and some of the coolest and best ones are private property and worth millions of dollars to collectors. As a paleontologist, I see scientific, not commercial, value in fossils and therefore, ethically cannot support the monetization of them. It's the same story with elephant ivory. If you sell it, even to donate the proceeds to conservation research, you are at some level legitimizing the sell and trade of the product. These are not easy ethical issues for those involved at the base level of things either.

Flip it around to another banned product - Do you feel it's okay for the government to send confiscated kilos of cocaine and heroin to China to sell? Not on the tongue-in-cheek but on a serious level.

I once had a colleague, from Africa, tell me a story about a president/dictator who gathered up all of the ivory that was confiscated and crushed it right in front of the poachers, before having the poachers executed, apparently it took 30 years for the poaching trade to start up again. I have NO idea if this is a true story and I cannot, for the life of me, remember which country. Next time I see him, I'll ask him. But if the story were true, there is some precedent for destroying the contraband. Although I deeply suspect is the was the symbolize of crushing the contraband and then crushing the provider of the contraband together that really did it.

-Rob

[BaiHu]

Heh! You'd think that a government that gets this with ivory would get this with smoking and SCHIP. Quick we need more taxes from smokers in order to keep the children healthy. Increase the tobacco tax! Increase the farm subsidies to tobacco farmers!