IDPA Bug Nationals [Archive] - pistol-forum.com

jetfire

11-13-2013, 06:06 PM

I just discovered the BUG division, after initially trying to shoot my J in SSR. Now "nationals"? How cool is that.

I'm actually quite excited about this match, because IDPA is using it sort of as a "proof of concept" for matches like it. There has never been a sanctioned BUG match before, so I'm certain there will be kinks to work out in the rules and execution, but it should be interesting to say the least.

jlw

11-13-2013, 06:38 PM

I know I could go read the rule book or otherwise find the answer, but I am going to be lazy and just ask:

What, if any, are the divisional breakdowns for BUG, and are shooters broken down by classification?

Chuck Haggard

11-13-2013, 06:40 PM

I wsih I could have gone to that one. We do a couple of BUG matches locally, I even won our last match, and I didn't even cheat, used a 642

ST911

11-13-2013, 06:48 PM

As I was reading the BUG division rules, I noticed some of the same things you discuss in your blog post. Despite it being intended for BUGs, there is ample opportunity to shoot guns that are decidedly not carried or used as true BUGs.

You wrote:

What I like even more is that the way the rules are structured…you don’t have to shoot your carry gun at all. I think that seeing who’s shooting small carry guns and who’s shooting gamer guns will be very enlightening on where the culture of IDPA is heading vs. where it has been.

Think there will be more definition on what constitutes a BUG, or even an IDPA BUG-Box at some point?

gtmtnbiker98

11-13-2013, 07:04 PM

My idea of a BUG is a J frame of some flavor, not a 2.5-3" L frame.

jetfire

11-13-2013, 07:37 PM

If this match is a success, I think the BUG rules will get tightened up a bit. To me, a BUG is a gun like a Shield or an LCR, or my 640.

To answer jlw's question, yes it appears that shooters are being broken into classes at this match. There are two divisions, revolver and auto, and then your best classification is used. So an ESR master would shoot Master revo, and a CDP Master would shoot Auto-Master.

Chuck Haggard

11-13-2013, 07:55 PM

To me, a BUG is a gun like a Shield or an LCR, or my 640.

Strongly concur

jlw

11-13-2013, 07:59 PM

To answer jlw's question, yes it appears that shooters are being broken into classes at this match. There are two divisions, revolver and auto, and then your best classification is used. So an ESR master would shoot Master revo, and a CDP Master would shoot Auto-Master.

That makes too much sense for it have come from IDPA...

jetfire

11-17-2013, 04:32 AM

ST911

11-17-2013, 10:23 AM

Interesting results: Jerry beat everyone. His final was a 166 and change, with a wheelgun. Next closest was Mike Seeklander with a 170.

Congrats to SLG who shot a slightly less awful match than me (inside joke) and walked away with 1st Master in Revolver.

Interested in hearing more about your observations of the match, stages, shooters, equipment, etc. Planning a longer work here or at your blog?

jetfire

11-17-2013, 11:02 AM

Yeah, I'll have a full write up with some video on Gun Nuts next week.

ToddG

11-17-2013, 11:35 AM

Congrats to SLG who shot a slightly less awful match than me (inside joke) and walked away with 1st Master in Revolver.

Awesome!

Little Creek

11-18-2013, 09:34 AM

Little Creek

11-18-2013, 09:50 AM

My idea of a BUG is a J frame of some flavor, not a 2.5-3" L frame.

I carried a 2.5" M19 for over 15 years as a Special Agent of a Treasury Agency (before DHS was formed). These revolvers shot pretty good with the old 110 grain +P+ Treasury load. Of course, a 3" barrel with a full length ejector rod would have been better. A 3" M19 or M66 might make the ultimate BUG revolver. Of course a gamers Bug Revolver would be a 3" M686. I requested a 4" M19 when one became available. I carred both in a Desantis Speed Scabbard. We were required to carry the issued weapon and ammo. This was before the SIG P228, then P229.

An all steel 3" J Frame would also make an acceptable BUG. I have a Sc Ti M340, 12 oz., it hurts like hell to shoot +P ammo in it, let alone 357 magnum.

Chuck Haggard

11-18-2013, 11:18 AM

I carried a 2.5" M19 for over 15 years as a Special Agent of a Treasury Agency (before DHS was formed). These revolvers shot pretty good with the old 110 grain +P+ Treasury load. Of course, a 3" barrel with a full length ejector rod would have been better. A 3" M19 or M66 might make the ultimate BUG revolver. Of course a gamers Bug Revolver would be a 3" M686. I requested a 4" M19 when one became available. I carred both in a Desantis Speed Scabbard. We were required to carry the issued weapon and ammo. This was before the SIG P228, then P229.

An all steel 3" J Frame would also make an acceptable BUG. I have a Sc Ti M340, 12 oz., it hurts like hell to shoot +P ammo in it, let alone 357 magnum.

Are we talking an actual BUG or a win the game "BUG", because in carrying a BUG for the past 27 years I can say that in very, very few cases would a model 19 have fit into the BUG plan due to size and weight.

jetfire

11-18-2013, 12:00 PM

What was Jerry's weapon of choice?

Jerry shot a 686+ with a 2 inch barrel.

GJM

11-18-2013, 01:30 PM

Little Creek

11-18-2013, 03:32 PM

Are we talking an actual BUG or a win the game "BUG", because in carrying a BUG for the past 27 years I can say that in very, very few cases would a model 19 have fit into the BUG plan due to size and weight.

My issue weapon was a 2.5" M19. It fits the definition of a BUG according to IDPA. My 12 oz. M340 is a LW BUG and will fit in a front pocket holster. Therefore it is more likely to be carried in retirement than a 2.5" M19 in a belt holster. My current favorite carry gun fits the IDPA definition of a BUG, but is my primary. It is a M&P9c carried in a kydex trigger guard holster with a belt lanyard in the AIWB position. After much consideration, I no longer want to depend on 5 rounds of 38 Special+P when I can rely on 13 rounds of 9mm. I beieve the best 9mm duty ammo is better than the best 38 special+P duty ammo.

Little Creek

11-18-2013, 03:34 PM

Jerry shot a 686+ with a 2 inch barrel.

Thanks, Caleb. I look forward to your additional reports on the BUG nationals. Did you see anyone shooting a M&P9c?

rsa-otc

11-18-2013, 03:43 PM

My understanding was that Randy Rogers was shooting the M&P9C, while Julie G was shooting the shield.

I believe this was Randi's first big outing in S&W Blue.

JodyH

11-18-2013, 03:55 PM

Anyone stupid enough to shoot a Scandium 340 class BUG at the match?
I thought about shooting my Scandium 360 in our outlaw ccw match (<100 rounds) a few months ago.
Then I went to the range to practice up.
15 rounds of standard pressure fmj later I switched to my "race gun" (Kahr PM9) instead.

jetfire

11-18-2013, 04:01 PM

My understanding was that Randy Rogers was shooting the M&P9C, while Julie G was shooting the shield.

I believe this was Randi's first big outing in S&W Blue.

Yes, Randi had a Compact and Julie had a Shield.

Full thoughts on the match here (http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/11/18/2013-idpa-bug-nationals/).

I have about 20 pages of notes I took on the match and my thoughts on it, which I'll be unpacking through the week. I really think IDPA is on to something here with this format.

jlw

11-18-2013, 04:20 PM

This seems like just the match for my 3" model 36 square butt.

rsa-otc

11-18-2013, 05:37 PM

Yes, Randi had a Compact and Julie had a Shield.

Full thoughts on the match here (http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/11/18/2013-idpa-bug-nationals/).

I have about 20 pages of notes I took on the match and my thoughts on it, which I'll be unpacking through the week. I really think IDPA is on to something here with this format.

IDPA Just announced on Facebook Randi Rogers taking High Lady with her S&W Shield. I know on their Gun Girl Radio Podcast Randi & Julie stated that Randi was going to use the compact and Julie the Shield.

jetfire

11-18-2013, 06:03 PM

I'm purty sure Randi had a compact, but it's hard to tell from the photos.

Chuck Haggard

11-18-2013, 06:48 PM

I forget, were there reloads as part of the COF in this match?

We shoot a couple of BUG matches per year locally and those have no reloads, was wondering if that is the same at the nationals.

taadski

11-18-2013, 06:59 PM

Yesterday afternoon, after reading this thread, I decided to shoot my Scandium 340, so I could be like SLG. I couldn't find standard 38 special ammo in my stash, and could only find some 158+P Federal. Feeling ambitious, I took 10 rounds out with me. I fired two rounds, and immediately returned the 8 unfired cartridges to the box.....

That made me LOL.

I have a 340PD that sits idle these days. The day I bought it, back when they first came out, set on "conquering" the beast, I put on my Viking hat and proceeded to shoot an entire box of 50 rounds of .357 through it in a single sitting. Good God that hurt. The process left my strong hand thumb bloodied (from the cylinder release) and the funny bit is that I didn't even know it until I felt the blood dripping into my palm b/c my whole hand was so numb. Yeah, not so smart... :-P

The match looks like it was a lot of fun. We've put on some local BUG side matches. Having learned my lesson, I shoot my actual BUG, a much more civilized 239. :-)

t

jetfire

11-18-2013, 07:03 PM

No reloads.

One of the stages had a pickup 442 loaded with actual .357 ammo. That was...fun.

DocGKR

11-18-2013, 07:45 PM

J-frames are BUG's; so are Shields, Kahr PM9's (if they actually run), G26's, and maybe M&P9c's--not K or L frames, G19's, etc...

GJM

11-18-2013, 09:43 PM

I have a 340PD that sits idle these days. The day I bought it, back when they first came out, set on "conquering" the beast, I put on my Viking hat and proceeded to shoot an entire box of 50 rounds of .357 through it in a single sitting. Good God that hurt. The process left my strong hand thumb bloodied (from the cylinder release) and the funny bit is that I didn't even know it until I felt the blood dripping into my palm b/c my whole hand was so numb. Yeah, not so smart... :-P

t

The S&W 340 class revolvers with stout loads are both similar and different than the S&W 329 with 300 +/- hard cast loads. The 340 is like someone superficially cutting you with a small knife, where the 329 is like being punched by a football player.

Chuck Haggard

11-19-2013, 10:12 AM

If you do nothing else, scroll to the bottom and look at the pic;

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/

ToddG

11-19-2013, 01:53 PM

No reloads.

While I understand the reasoning behind it, that's a major dumbing down of practical pistol skills.

One of the stages had a pickup 442 loaded with actual .357 ammo. That was...fun.

I despise major matches that force competitors to shoot pick-up guns. That's doubly true for something like an aluminum revolver with .357 ammo. What chest-thumping HeMan thought that would be cool? It's the kind of thing that wouldn't phase Jerry one iota but might actually injure someone who doesn't have a lot of revo experience.

J-frames are BUG's; so are Shields, Kahr PM9's (if they actually run), G26's, and maybe M&P9c's--not K or L frames, G19's, etc...

I'm guessing IDPA will have to make some real changes to the BUG rules.

DR Middlebrooks used to run a match that classified guns into Subcompact, Compact, or Full (or words to that effect) instead of the more traditional classifications. I always thought that made a lot of sense since it's size rather than design (SA vs DA vs SF) that really seems to separate what people choose for gaming.

jetfire

11-19-2013, 01:57 PM

I had three thoughts on ways IDPA could improve the match for next year. (http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/11/19/the-future-of-the-idpa-bug-nationals/)

The two biggest would be to allow reloads at the competitor's discretion and create a division for laser equipped guns, since many BUGs don't have quality sights to speak of.

JodyH

11-19-2013, 03:35 PM

I'm guessing IDPA will have to make some real changes to the BUG rules.

DR Middlebrooks used to run a match that classified guns into Subcompact, Compact, or Full (or words to that effect) instead of the more traditional classifications.
In our outlaw ccw matches we go by capacity, capacity is defined as the number of rounds that fit within the physical grip of the pistol. No extended mags allowed.

Pocket = 6 and under
Compact = 7-10
Duty = 11+
Revolver = 5-7

This works well since all stages are 18 rounds or less and most are around 14 rounds.

Little Creek

11-20-2013, 08:17 AM

J-frames are BUG's; so are Shields, Kahr PM9's (if they actually run), G26's, and maybe M&P9c's--not K or L frames, G19's, etc...

You mean to tell me that a S&W M12 (k-frame) 2" airweight is not a back up gun? Surely you jest.

Chuck Haggard

11-20-2013, 10:10 AM

I suppose "BUG" can be kind of nebulous.

Two of my troops, both XXXL mammals, are carrying a S&W 296 strapped to their vests under their shirts, one each. Sure, the 296 is an airweight five shooter, but an L frame.......

Not many dudes could pull that one off though.

I carried a 6906 on my ankle for several years when we issued 5906s for duty carry at my job........

Still, for purposes of this match, I'd prefer to see the ringer guns chopped.

I'd also like to see work from the holster, but I get why they don't.

jetfire

11-20-2013, 10:29 AM

I think for next year you'll see the Super BUGs cut back on a bit.

11-20-2013, 11:03 AM

J-frames are BUG's; so are Shields, Kahr PM9's (if they actually run), G26's, and maybe M&P9c's--not K or L frames, G19's, etc...

I think the original intent was to let guns like the Walther PP play in the game. I think they have a 3.8 inch barrel and they were quite popular as a back up gun until the chopped 9mms came along.

It will be interesting to see where this goes next year. :)

I just posted this and noticed my gamer bug gun in my avatar. ;)

LHS

11-20-2013, 09:03 PM

Some years ago, there was a BUG side match at our AZ state IDPA match. You pays your moneys, top shooter takes half of the pot and the club takes the other half. Pretty standard stuff. It was sold as a 'pocket gun' match.

Well, as always, someone came up and asked what qualified as a 'pocket gun'. The guy running the side shoot said "Anything you can stuff in a pocket without us being able to tell it's there." The questioner, an incredibly large gentleman, sauntered off and returned with his shoot-me vest. He said "Can y'all see it?" Upon hearing a negative, he said "Then it's a pocket gun, right?" The SO agreed, and told him to load and make ready. Well, the gentleman pulled a 5" 1911 out of his lower vest pocket, loaded it, replaced it, and signaled he was ready to start.

To me, a BUG is something that dramatically gives up shootability for concealment, i.e. a J-frame, PPK, Shield, Kahr, Kel-Tec, etc. At most, I'd accept a G26/27. I think using the 1903 Pocket Hammerless is a great idea too. But that's just me.