Scary class tonight

[Slavex]

So as some of you know I don't just compete I also teach, a lot. I run a weekly class (now twice weekly) that has all levels of pistol shooters at it from door kickers and air marshals, to brand new never shot before and everything in between.

Tonight we had two new shooters (new to me) and one of them was obviously not experienced, despite his saying otherwise. I assigned one of my regulars who's also an IPSC RO to help run the class and stood like a hawk on the one new guy. It was obvious that he'd never even holstered a gun before, so I walked him through that in our safety area. And finally we went live. I was calling a series of drills with the new guy in front of me and observed his first load and make ready, no problem, until he went to holster. He then grabbed the gun with his weak hand by the top of the slide, transferred it to his strong hand, and now holding it but the back of the slide/top of the beavertail and tried to put in his holster, as I was stepping in to stop him, the gun pinwheeled into the floor. I yelled stop, but he didn't and he picked it up, sweeping a number of other shooters on the line. I now had a hold of him and took the gun from him, unloaded it and told him he was done for the night. His casual laissez-faire attitude and complete failure to be safe presented a danger to all of us and could not be tolerated. He exhibited the same attitude as he was packing up, saying "yeah it's your rules, so that's fine, no big deal" I gave him his money back and escorted him from the range. The two shooters he came with were given a very strong talking to, as they had vouched for him and assured me was safe and understood what was up if he came to class.

I understand that accidents happen, and that sometimes, in training it's best to use non injurious ones as teaching point, but man, not tonight, had he stayed I'm certain someone would have got hurt.

People make fun of the rules we have in IPSC as being overboard, or too harsh, or unnecessary and this just proves how wrong they are. Even though this class isn't an IPSC specific event, the ISPC rules, for the most part, cover everything we need, and maybe a bit more.

This is only the 2nd or 3rd time I've had to kick someone out for safety infractions of this type in 13 years of teaching. I'd like to thank my original Black Badge instructor for installing the IPSC idea of safety into my head and my RO instructor for installing the RO side of it.

I am so glad my GSW kit is still unused for a GSW.
It is really amazing just how fast stuff happens sometimes.
I got the entire incident on my new head cam, but won't be posting to protect his privacy.

[hufnagel]

find a way to blur his face in the video maybe?
I can't wrap my head around that much going wrong like that.

[dbateman]

Wow.

Its hard to kick someone off the range but sounds like you did the right thing.

[1slow]

Good on you for kicking him off the range.
Whoever vouches for someone needs to understand that their behavior reflects on the their own reputation for integrity.
Stupid POS needs to realize that his behavior is threatening somebody's life. People react to this.
You point a gun at someone you better have a kittening good reason.

[JV_]

I wouldn't have refunded his money.

[jetfire]

I wouldn't have refunded his money.

Word. I'd also post the video of him being unsafe as a reminder to everyone.

[TCinVA]

I'm continually amazed at how casually people handle lethal weapons.

I'm also continually amazed at the number of ranges who would simply ban any work from a holster rather than do the proper thing, which is deal with the problems when they manifest.

[GardoneVT]

I'm continually amazed at how casually people handle lethal weapons.

I'm also continually amazed at the number of ranges who would simply ban any work from a holster rather than do the proper thing, which is deal with the problems when they manifest.

I totally get where you're coming from.

That being said, my local range doesn't permit holster draws and for good reason.Not to offer excuses, but the roof looks like swiss cheese and they rent out class 3 weaponry.It would be a matter of time before some yahoo tried a quick draw with the G18 and boom....Sioux Falls Channel 5 has a fresh scoop.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yikes...who brought that guy?

I vote for "blur out the identifying features and post the footage" just because I'm curious to see HOW this went so horribly awry.


I have sometimes thought that what you really need is to run two classes, a beginner and an advanced. Get Tim or Brent or someone to run the beginner class, and go through fundamentals and holster work there. Require a few beginner nights before letting them step up.

Obviously I'm sure you've considered this and don't do it because of the administrative headaches or range policies or some legitimate reason. But as your own level of skill and training has increased, so have the demands of S&D and the number of advanced shooters is the Abby area has gotten pretty big. There's clearly a lot of relatively high-level shooters there so the overall demands of the class have gotten higher and it's probably a bit of a leap for the noobs. Some handle it and some don't, apparently.

Anyway I'm sure you've already spent plenty of time thinking about this sort of solution. But I can imagine that running even a once-a-month entry-level "Introduction to Skills and Drills" might be beneficial. For example, I know Erin wants to do some kind of slightly more advanced beginner stuff before really immersing herself in S&D (although I've had her out a lot more recently and she's probably ready now).

Of course then you have the whole "I don't need the beginner class because I'm already awesome" problem.

And now I'm just rambling.

[jlw]

Yikes.

As for the refund, there is a somewhat known defensive tactics instructor that will send a refund along with a letter to the agency of any student that fails or gets kicked out of his classes. The letter gives an explanation to the agency head as to what transpired, and the refund, he says, is so that there is no question about his motivations in failing/removing a student.

[Tirofijo2001]

Yikes.

As for the refund, there is a somewhat known defensive tactics instructor that will send a refund along with a letter to the agency of any student that fails or gets kicked out of his classes. The letter gives an explanation to the agency head as to what transpired, and the refund, he says, is so that there is no question about his motivations in failing/removing a student.


I assume that the agency funded the training? That seems fair. And keeps the agency sending students back to that DT instructor. I doubt they'd keep using that instructor if he consistently sent students home early and kept the tuition.

If a LEO is going to training on his own dime to further his knowledge, the instructor can stay out of it.

This is going back a few years, but Gryphon Group used to (and may still) allow a unit to send another soldier to a course if it had sent a previous soldier home early (probably from failing the day one driving portion). Seemed like a sound business decision on Gryphon's part. I feel like the Army liked not having to worry about losing the tuition. (When I was there the 82nd, in its infinite wisdom, sent a soldier, out of the thousands to choose from, that didn't grow up driving and had gotten his drivers license the week before specifically in order to attend the quasi-driving school. He didn't pass the driving test the first day <surprise> , but the 82nd got a free slot in the next course.)

I personally don't need to see the video. Slavex has described it well enough. I guess we can all watch it and feel superior, but I don't need it.

[pax]

I am among those who wish we could see the video. When I want to see a video like this, it is not so I can "feel superior"; it is so that I can learn from what happened – both from the instructor's perspective, and from the student perspective. I believe most of the people – if not all of the people – who posted a desire to see the video on this thread have the same motivation.

pax

[Maple Syrup Actual]

.....

[Josh Runkle]

I wouldn't have refunded his money.

I absolutely would have: why start an argument with a guy who has a loaded gun and doesn't think he's wrong? Keeping his money won't teach him anything. When he leaves, he'll be mad and bad mouth you to future customers. Perhaps this way, he can confront what he did at some point in the future, and train elsewhere.

[JV_]

why start an argument with a guy who has a loaded gun and doesn't think he's wrong? I'm not an instructor, so I haven't seen a wide variety of episodes, but in the classes where I've seen people sidelined or asked to leave, they knew what they did wrong and weren't belligerent or angry (at anyone but themselves).

Refund policies should be clear to everyone at signup. If a safety DQ forfeits your class tuition, then it should be on the safety waiver too.

People who leave angry (at anyone but themselves), are probably the same ones who might try to demand a refund, will probably badmouth them anyway.

FWIW: I'll never be an instructor. I don't have the personality, patience, or skill to do it - so all of this is moot. Perhaps my above feeling about a DQ refund is further evidence.

[Josh Runkle]

I'm not an instructor, so I haven't seen a wide variety of episodes, but in the classes where I've seen people sidelined or asked to leave, they knew what they did wrong and weren't belligerent or angry (at anyone but themselves).

Refund policies should be clear to everyone at signup. If a safety DQ forfeits your class tuition, then it should be on the safety waiver too.

People who leave angry (at anyone but themselves), are probably the same ones who might try to demand a refund, will probably badmouth them anyway.

FWIW: I'll never be an instructor. I don't have the personality, patience, or skill to do it - so all of this is moot. Perhaps my above feeling about a DQ refund is further evidence.

I've only met two kinds of students: those who can absolutely learn from their mistakes and take it seriously...those I would keep in class, they're there to learn and are in the process of learning...and those who have no intention of applying what you told them...those people that are unsafe and close-minded: they're gone. They also tend to be former police or military or people who have shot for 25+ years but never taken a class.

My point being: if they apologize profusely and only made a mistake, unload their gun and keep working with them on the side via dryfire, there's no reason for them to leave, hence, no need for a refund. On the other hand, if they seem oblivious to what they did, they don't even realize they did anything wrong. No point in keeping their money, they'll just bad mouth you because they think what they did was ok, and that you're just being "overly sensitive". No joke, local gunshop guy I've known for over 10 years, has been shooting bullseye league for almost 50 years, sincerely believes that "finger off the trigger until ready to fire" means that if you're searching your house for a bad guy, your finger should be on the trigger, because you are "ready to fire". There's no way I can persuade him otherwise. Ever. So, that type of guy, I'd be best to give him his money back...he'd just tell folks I do things differently, if I kept his money and he felt like he did nothing wrong and I was being silly, he'd bad mouth me forever.

[klewis]

I'm really trying to picture the way he gripped the gun as he tried to holster, in an effort to figure out what the kitten he thought he was doing...

[Munson]

I would have given him his money back just to keep everything else going and get him outta there. But I would have felt like I definitely earned that money though even if he only got 15 min of class.

[BaiHu]

In some ways, I'm not surprised at how some people act around guns. Most people only know them from movies and news. In the movies, the shots look easy and cool and only the bad guy gets hurt/killed. In the news, only the cops should have them and the bad guys get what's coming to them. It's magic on film, so they know no other way to think about it. It's why I always watch a shooter who is new to me at my range before I decide to continue to shoot with them near me. And I won't even begin to discuss the old dogs at my range.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Slavex]

If I can figure out a way to blur his and everyone else's face I will post it. I've watched it a bunch of times now and I still can't sort out why he would handle a gun like that.
Misanthropist, you will be happy to learn that as of Thursday I have received permission to run two classes a week. Friday will be introductory night and Saturday will be intermediate and above night. Friday will also allow 22s and won't require holsters.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Hey, that is great news. I noticed you mention two nights a week in the OP so I went and looked in the latest AS and didn't see a mention of it, so I was wondering about that.

That's actually great for me because in general Saturdays are much easier for me to make. Fridays are often difficult which is why you so rarely see me out there.

And I would really like to make it out a little more often. Well, a lot more often, actually.

[WDW]

If I can figure out a way to blur his and everyone else's face I will post it. I've watched it a bunch of times now and I still can't sort out why he would handle a gun like that.
Misanthropist, you will be happy to learn that as of Thursday I have received permission to run two classes a week. Friday will be introductory night and Saturday will be intermediate and above night. Friday will also allow 22s and won't require holsters.

Sometimes people, especially inexperienced people, just do dumb shit for no other reason than it's physically possible. It follows no course of logic or reason, but since the laws of physics & human dexterity don't prevent it, they do it.

I'm not an instructor, just thinking out loud, but would a brief 1-2 minute session with each student where they demonstrate basic, safe weapon handling & manipulation prior to class beginning help prevent this nonsense? Like if you can't load, clear, holster, draw, & present safely in this 1 on 1 meeting, you don't get to attend the class. It might filter out these clowns & save trouble. It's practicality would be based on class size too I suppose.

[LHS]

From a student's perspective, I'm glad that you ejected him. I've been to a few classes where students were demonstrably unsafe, and the instructors either didn't care or were too concerned with graduation rates to do the right thing. At my first CCW class, there was a shooter who laid the dust cover of his crappy Taurus PT92 on his upturned palm while shooting, like it was the handguard of a rifle or something. The instructor just shrugged and said "When he blows a finger off, he'll learn." Later, a woman had a malf with her P232 and just turned right around, flagging everyone with her finger still on the trigger. That kind of stuff really ruins your day as a student. I think a big sign of a true professional is how he deals with these kinds of students, and how much (or rather, how little) tolerance he has for safety violations. It should be treated as a very very serious issue, not just blown off as "Well, he'll learn when he shoots himself" or something along those lines. So bravo to you for launching this dimwit rather than allowing him to endanger your students and take away from their bought-and-paid-for training time.

[Slavex]

I also took the time to explain to him why he was being ejected and that until he can handle himself in a safe manner he isn't welcome back.

[LHS]

I also took the time to explain to him why he was being ejected and that until he can handle himself in a safe manner he isn't welcome back.

Excellent.

[Wendell]

...I still can't sort out why he would handle a gun like that...

I'm wondering about the holster he was wearing.

[Sal Picante]

This thread has so much "win"...

Our IPSC club had a similar incident 2 years ago - a couple of guys "vouched" for their buddy who ended up breaking the 180 almost completely. Truly a "shituation brown" moment on the range!

We revamped the rules to state that a shooter has to have earned a classification in IDPA, USPSA or IPSC -or- attended a holster skills class with one of the many reasonable training outfits in the area (including my own... Full disclosure...). (Holster classes are common in our neck of the woods as "range time" since most ranges don't permit holster draws unless in a class.)

I always wished the IDPA club would do the same - they get some awfully odd birds there... Wow.

[Slavex]

The whole point of my classes is for people to come and learn, some brand new, some skilled. I watched the guy gear up, no problem, handled the gun fine. Talked to him one on one, explained rules, no problem. The instant he got on the line, he did this. The holster was one of those ones that sometimes comes with guns in a "kit" only covered the trigger guard and top of the slide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeXsLHjuodw&feature=youtu.be

[David B.]

Yikes, that makes me cringe!

I'm so glad I don't have to shoot at public ranges anymore. I'm glad nobody was injured and that you were aware enough to keep an eye this guy.

That was good spidey sense on your part.

God bless,
David

[fuse]

find a way to blur his face in the video maybe?
I can't wrap my head around that much going wrong like that.

If you want to Dropbox me the file I could do this no problem. I'll blur everyone else too. Would completely protect everyone.

Might be a valuable thing for instructors everywhere to show classes. A real world example of smurf going down.

Edit : looks like you figured it out. Nice job.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm of the opinion that if you wear a white hoodie to the range, you are probably pretty inexperienced. It will both interfere with your draw and reholster and also get stained and filthy. Red flags abound.

Flawless, sub-moa fit and finish...all day long.

[Sal Picante]

Wow...

Just wow.

[klewis]

Wow...

Just wow.

^^^^^^

[dbateman]

wowzers I have no idea why you would handle a pistol like that.

[pax]

Zero awareness that it's a gun. Amazing.

From an instructor standpoint, I'm wondering about the sweatshirt. When I have people new to holstering, I tell them to tuck in their shirt tails -- no drawing from concealment until we've done some stuff from open, so I can clearly see what their hands are doing. I wonder if a rule like that would have helped prevent what happened here. Not sure if that would have fit within the context of your program, since I'm not familiar with what you're doing overall.

pax

[ToddG]

From a student's perspective, I'm glad that you ejected him.

This is the most important part, to me.

I tell students at the beginning of every class that if they violate certain rules, they're gone not because I think they're unteachable but because the other students can't be asked to risk it. I've been to far too many classes in which an instructor was willing to tolerate poor safety because he wanted to help that student and was oblivious to the fact that it was the other students getting swept by being next to the guy on the firing line.

As for the refund thing, I can see both sides and have used both approaches.

Refunding people after a safety violation invites amateur behavior. It's why sports (USPSA, IDPA, etc.) don't give refunds to folks who are DQd for safety reasons. And from an instructor's perspective, when someone takes up one of a limited number of slots, refunding his money because he's incompetent and won't follow instructions means I pay for his decision to sign up for a class when he wasn't capable of meeting the prerequisites.

Giving someone a refund does, however, minimize the drama of the ejection and gets the rest of the class up and running again as soon as possible.

I don't think there is any legitimate reason for someone to expect a refund after getting himself kicked out for unsafe gun handling. And most students are cowed enough by their own incompetence being called out that they just skulk off and it never becomes an issue. But on the rare occasion that someone becomes argumentative about it, if an instructor chooses to refund his entry fee rather than deal with the headache I cannot criticize.

[Slavex]

I simply wanted him gone as fast as possible. Hence the refund. Had I had to stand around arguing with him over his refund I would have been ignoring my students. This was quicker and simpler.
As for the hoodie I'd told him I'd prefer he not wear it, but when he holstered at the safety table he had no problems and did it correctly. It was on the line he exhibited the problem.

[_JD_]

I don't know why, but I've seen a ton of this in Iowa with new and some more experinced shooters. I don't quite grasp why they are doing it and when I ask most they just say "I don't know why I did it that way" This was seen A LOT in my early intermediate classes.

Now I make sure that before we go hot with holster work that we talk about proper draw stroke and do lots of dry holster worek. It also lead to a whole new segment of my basic class for "Gun Handling 101" focusing on positive gun handling using THE GRIP OF THE GUN and when you're holding a gun to do so by the appropriate gripping surfaces. IE grips, stocks, forearms etc.

[JV_]

I simply wanted him gone as fast as possible. Hence the refund.
Yea, I understand. I guess part of my issue is that they lied, or misstated their ability, and took up a slot that someone more competent could have taken. That's money right out of the instructor's pocket.

Stupid should hurt, and financially is one pain that most notice.

[Slavex]

This is just my weekly drop in class. $20 for the night for 2.5hrs of instruction. On a heated, properly ventilated indoor range. No other fees even if you're not a member.
As of next week I'm splitting classes, Friday will be newb night and Saturday will be experienced shooter night. I figure newb night will still be too much for this guy.

[LOKNLOD]

I figure newb night will still be too much for this guy.

Maybe you need a Smurf night - blue guns only.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Best bang-for-buck training deal in the country, incidentally. I couldn't possibly have laid down the base I have without ready access to S&D. When I think about the relatively small number of rounds it's taken to get to the point I'm at, man, I just pity people who have to go to ranges and dick around with working all this stuff out on their own.

[Slavex]

Thanks dude, watch the email for the update on classes.

The more I watch this video the more I think this guy was treating his gun like some "thing" he puts in his pocket. It disturbs me beyond belief that this happened at my class. I was ok with the hoody as the range was still chilly at this point of the night and he hadn't had any problems back at the safety table. But after this incident and watching him put the gun away it really hit me, he has no idea what the gun is capable of, or he just doesn't care. This is event, even with no shots fired, is going to leave a permanent scar on me. As it should.

[LSP972]

Of course then you have the whole "I don't need the beginner class because I'm already awesome" problem.



This is exactly why I refused to get involved in "civilian" training after I retired from 20+ years of teaching cops; despite several potentially quite lucrative offers. I've seen WAY too many dipsticks at public ranges to be comfortable teaching anywhere I don't have absolute control. IOW, the decision to run off an idiot like this would not be mine to make, because it either isn't "my" range, or I'm not the lead instructor, etc.

I get scared enough the infrequent times I visit a public range with other people present.

.

[Mr_White]

I've watched it a bunch of times now and I still can't sort out why he would handle a gun like that.

I'm stuck where I can't see the video right now, but from everything you've said, he sounds like maybe he has a little bit of 'Backwards Mind.'

Backwards Mind is something I see occasionally. I made that name up for the people who seem unable to prioritize things properly (for firearms training.) They simply get preoccupied with near-irrelevancies to the exclusion of super-mega-important stuff.

People with Backwards Mind put their finger where it's not supposed to be when it's not supposed to be there, but when corrected, almost brush that off because they are very, very concerned and preoccupied with how their gun's grip fits their ring and little fingers, and they really want to discuss the possibility that maybe one of those grip sleeves would get them the hand-gun fit they desperately need so their shots don't go low and left....

People with Backwards Mind point the gun too far away from downrange, but when corrected, really wants to instead ask you if he should be using his flush-fit magazines or the pinky-extension ones...

Their mental structure makes them hard to wrangle.

[ToddG]

This is exactly why I refused to get involved in "civilian" training after I retired from 20+ years of teaching cops; despite several potentially quite lucrative offers. I've seen WAY too many dipsticks at public ranges to be comfortable teaching anywhere I don't have absolute control. IOW, the decision to run off an idiot like this would not be mine to make, because it either isn't "my" range, or I'm not the lead instructor, etc.

I've seen at least as bad general gun handling at LE/mil-only classes. Those groups often tend to include folks who've become so desensitized to muzzles that they violate Rule 2 all the time, especially when (they think) the gun is empty. SLG and I did a class a few years back for a highly respected group of military folks who had no problem laying a portable rack of M9s down in front of us on a table, all the guns pointed right at us, and then casually grabbing one at a time to wipe them down before class.

I can't tell you how many LEOs I see at the NRA Range who think it's ok to turn 90 or even 180 degrees from downrange with a gun still in hand right before holstering. That's a really common practice at a lot of LE quals/ranges.

Now mind you, we're still talking about outliers and not every guy present. But there are dummies at LE classes just like there are dummies at open enrollment classes.

As for maintaining safety on a range, that shouldn't rely on where you are. If you're running the line, you're running the line. If I taught someplace that said I wasn't allowed to remove unsafe students from "their" range, I'd pack up and leave. As mentioned previously, as an instructor I have a responsibility to the other students. If I cannot enforce simple range safety, I cannot meet that responsibility.

[JodyH]

Ill say this. I'd rather RO a new civilian shooter at a match than a new LE competitor.
I've learned many LEO's have a very cavalier attitude when it comes to firearms handling.

[LSP972]

I've seen at least as bad general gun handling at LE/mil-only classes.

As for maintaining safety on a range, that shouldn't rely on where you are. If you're running the line, you're running the line.

Agreed. The difference is, in a class of LEOs from your agency, you OWN them for that time and don't have to be diplomatic, etc.

As to your second point, that WAS my point… working for someone else in a civilian capacity, I'm NOT running the line and don't have the authority to eject some hydrocephalic moron.

.

[jetfire]

Ill say this. I'd rather RO a new civilian shooter at a match than a new LE competitor.
I've learned many LEO's have a very cavalier attitude when it comes to firearms handling.

Word to this.

[ToddG]

Agreed. The difference is, in a class of LEOs from your agency, you OWN them for that time and don't have to be diplomatic, etc.

Understood. Though I've been asked to help with various "problem children" at agencies in the past because the officer/agent wasn't performing to spec and the agency was -- usually for legal/EEOC reasons -- unwilling or unable to address the problem head on. In one case I was sent a young lady who "suffered PTSD when she had to qualify." True story.


As to your second point, that WAS my point… working for someone else in a civilian capacity, I'm NOT running the line and don't have the authority to eject some hydrocephalic moron.

FWIW, I've never felt that way. The only times I've had hiccups were when the host/range owner did something wrong. Then, yeah, you have to handle it diplomatically because you cannot afford to have the class spontaneously canceled mid-day if the host goes all EDP.

[Slavex]

I'm lucky at this point, it's my night, my class, at the range I serve on the BOD of. So I can run it pretty much as I wish, so long as it's safe. I've had morons in the past, both LE (got a nice letter once due to me telling an instructor he was doing it wrong) and civilian. Probably an even split on who the worst has been. Having a LEO on the line start giving me crap for having a full auto pistol (my Shadow, and it certainly isn't full auto) or a civy whining and bitching about how I let some people stay hot all night but not him, and how it's so dangerous that they are hot all night, and how much safer it would be if they weren't. Both were told they were free to not come back. Stupid people are stupid people and they exist everywhere. Hopefully I don't have another encounter like the video above though, that guy was special.

[pax]

Slavex,

Enforcing the safety protocols is rarely comfortable, and I don't think there's a one size fits all, by the numbers way to do it. But Todd is right: you have to keep your eye on the other students, and what is best for the group as a whole. That was a hard lesson for me to learn as a new instructor, and I doubt it has been any easier for most others, because we do get into this business to help people. That's one reason the neediest students always seem to get the lion's share of instructor attention. Finding a balance between the needs of that one student who is absorbing all your energy, and the needs of the squared away people who seem to be managing themselves just fine without a lot of hovering – that's hard work.

My hat is off to you and to every instructor who handles safety issues decisively so that everyone can go home safe at the end of the day. Thanks for setting an example and sharing the story with us.

pax

[rob_s]

I'm not an instructor, so I haven't seen a wide variety of episodes, but in the classes where I've seen people sidelined or asked to leave, they knew what they did wrong and weren't belligerent or angry (at anyone but themselves).

I have seen people get all worked up over being bounced from matches for unsafe behavior on multiple occasions. And before someone says that's because of the way I talk to people, it's never been me doing the bouncing. I even know of one "top shot" that got bounced from a local match for being unsafe (not to mention obnoxious
Ioss from the start) who then rallied their leg-humpers to make a big scene and be allowed to stay.

It absolutely happens. The easiest thing to do is give the person back their $10, $25, $200 and send them on their way. Someone *might* decide to escalate because you kept their money! but the likelihood that someone escalates with a refund is near nil.

Unfortunately, safety rules on the range have to be written for the least safe person there. I have almost never seen anyone IMPROVE their safety because "big boy rules" but have seen dozens get less safe.

[JV_]

I have seen people get all worked up over being bounced from matchesYes, it happens at the matches I attend too; I was only speaking about classes in my comment that you quoted.

There's a big price difference between a match and a class, at least with the ones I attend, and I'm not sure I'd have the same refund policy for both.

[ToddG]

Giving a refund for getting DQ'd at a match is a no-go. Unlike a classroom setting, matches don't normally include the same kinds of safety briefs. More importantly, it's not the RO's job to coach competitors. The RO's job is to watch and maintain safety. If someone breaks a safety rule, they get ejected. The rules in every serious sport make that clear.

You break the rules by doing something unsafe and your match fee is forfeit.

You can cry all you want, but I've got dozens if not hundreds of other competitors to deal with and the match doesn't come to a halt just because you have boo-boo lip.

In a class with a dozen total people, that one unsafe guy is a much bigger piece of the pie, he's paid a lot more money, and at least compared to a local club match he's intending to do a lot more shooting (probably over more days). He may have traveled from out of town, etc. It's a much more complicated problem.

[rob_s]

I'm operating under the assumption that we aren't talking about a $600 fee for an evening class with a local instructor. Unless I'm misunderstanding the nature of the OP's course.

I've never seen anyone bounced from a sleepaway class at all. I've seen at least one class where at least 1/3 of the students should have been bounced, and almost self-ejected because of it.

[pax]

I've never seen anyone bounced from a sleepaway class at all.

It does happen. Rare, but it happens.

The thing is, if you give students rules, you have to enforce those rules. If you see an unsafe condition in your class and you do not take steps to correct it, it won't matter if they have signed a liability release or not – you are at legal risk if something happens. The liability release only covers negligence, not reckless indifference to an unsafe condition you knew was present.

pax

[JeffJ]

I'm operating under the assumption that we aren't talking about a $600 fee for an evening class with a local instructor. Unless I'm misunderstanding the nature of the OP's course.

I've never seen anyone bounced from a sleepaway class at all. I've seen at least one class where at least 1/3 of the students should have been bounced, and almost self-ejected because of it.

I've seen it. Guy was given several warnings and pretty much sat on for a portion of day 1, and was asked not to return for day 2. I don't really know what happened, I was at the other end of the line focusing on my own kitten. Which is another issue with class safety issues, it's tough to pay attention to what you're doing, supposed to be doing, process new information, and keep an eye on other people.

[ToddG]

I've never seen anyone bounced from a sleepaway class at all. I've seen at least one class where at least 1/3 of the students should have been bounced, and almost self-ejected because of it.

I'm a very firm believer that if you see enough bad handling that you are thinking about leaving, you should go up to the instructor and ask for a refund. He can either remedy the situation or at least repay your course fee.

A recent formal class I took had a very serious safety issue arise that, while not the fault of the instructor, also was not handled by the instructor. A few of the other students and I took it upon ourselves to remedy the problem and while it ruffled some feathers, we no longer had people pointing rifles over our heads during the class.

I've been forced to ask people to leave class before due to safety issues. It sucks but it's part of the job. More often I'll simply "give them the option" of continuing with an unloaded gun and mags -- something I've witnessed at USMA, for example, when teaching there -- and that's usually enough to get them to opt for an early trip home.

[Slavex]

I've seen people be asked to leave 2 and even 4 day classes, ones they've flown in for, or driven a long way. If it was for a safety issue, no refund, if it was for not being as good as they said they were it's been 50/50 on refunds.
I've been to 3 IPSC World Shoots and countless large international IPSC matches. I've seen people get DQ'd before they even fire their first shot, and even after they've fired their last shot and thought they were safe from a DQ. They all eat the entry fee, no refunds at matches.
My classes are pretty low key, $20 for the night (CDN money, not your funny USD), had this happened later in the night I wouldn't have given the refund, but within the first 20 minutes of the night, it was just simpler. Plus sometimes you just get a feeling that maybe it'll be less complicated if you do that judging by how a person is acting. I'm not going to go into details on the internet about how I felt when he wouldn't take the gun off when I told him to put it away until after the 5th or 6th time I said it or what was going through my head, but suffice to say, that got me a bit worried.

[Wendell]

Perhaps the approved shooting club of which he is a member should be informed.

[rob_s]

I'm a very firm believer that if you see enough bad handling that you are thinking about leaving, you should go up to the instructor and ask for a refund. He can either remedy the situation or at least repay your course fee.

A recent formal class I took had a very serious safety issue arise that, while not the fault of the instructor, also was not handled by the instructor. A few of the other students and I took it upon ourselves to remedy the problem and while it ruffled some feathers, we no longer had people pointing rifles over our heads during the class.

I've been forced to ask people to leave class before due to safety issues. It sucks but it's part of the job. More often I'll simply "give them the option" of continuing with an unloaded gun and mags -- something I've witnessed at USMA, for example, when teaching there -- and that's usually enough to get them to opt for an early trip home.

In every case that I've had safety concerns I've spoken to the instructor about it. In the worst case several of us confronted the instructor. In all cases the problem existed at the bagging/un bagging/gear-storage area so we simply corrected the problem(s) ourselves at the table. In all cases we got some variation on the "big boy rules" lecture.

If I had a family depending on me I absolutely would have left. As it was, morbid curiosity gut the best of me. I did what I could to not get shot myself and waited around to see what happened.

[JodyH]

My version of big boy rules is "you point that gun at me and i'm going to kick your kitten. Any questions big boy?"

[Maple Syrup Actual]

My question would probably be "is that kind of bravado wise in the context of a whole bunch of armed people, some of whom may have already demonstrated the tendency to make poor decisions with their guns? "

[ToddG]

In all cases the problem existed at the bagging/un bagging/gear-storage area so we simply corrected the problem(s) ourselves at the table. In all cases we got some variation on the "big boy rules" lecture.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people -- including instructors -- who do in fact take a much more relaxed attitude toward presumably-unloaded guns in the "gearing up" stage. It's a cultural thing quite common in some LE and .mil circles. Folks whose primary exposure to firearms safety has been USPSA/IDPA sometimes don't realize just how strict their rules are.

I think it's incumbent on an instructor to make the unbagging/"gearing up" rules clear as people show up -- or by email before the class even begins -- so there is no confusion.

At the range tonight I had a police officer in the lane next to me. Kudos to him for practicing on his own time. But every time he holstered, he first turned 90 degrees toward me so the muzzle first swept my lane and then everyone to the other side. The second time I saw this I was in a position to reach over and stop his elbow before he could turn. He was pissed that I touched him but what could he really say when I asked him to be more careful about not pointing his gun at people as he holstered?

[pax]

I have never understood why some instructors are so lackadaisical about the gearing up and gearing down procedures. If someone shoots himself two minutes before the class starts, that is your headline and your lawsuit just as surely as if it happened two minutes after you start. That means your students' safety behaviors during that time are your responsibility whether or not you choose to maintain control of your range.

pax

[Slavex]

recorded my entire class tonight. took the hat off when I went out in the rain, had it put on a bench (end of class). Just got home to upload the video onto my PC, camera is updside down in the clamp and the memory card is gone. Not very happy right now. Nothing but shooting video on it, but still not very happy.

[rob_s]

recorded my entire class tonight. took the hat off when I went out in the rain, had it put on a bench (end of class). Just got home to upload the video onto my PC, camera is updside down in the clamp and the memory card is gone. Not very happy right now. Nothing but shooting video on it, but still not very happy.

Wait? Someone STOLE your memory card?

Out of curiosity,did you ask all of the attendees if they objected to being filmed?

[rob_s]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people -- including instructors -- who do in fact take a much more relaxed attitude toward presumably-unloaded guns in the "gearing up" stage. It's a cultural thing quite common in some LE and .mil circles. Folks whose primary exposure to firearms safety has been USPSA/IDPA sometimes don't realize just how strict their rules are.

I think it's incumbent on an instructor to make the unbagging/"gearing up" rules clear as people show up -- or by email before the class even begins -- so there is no confusion.

At the range tonight I had a police officer in the lane next to me. Kudos to him for practicing on his own time. But every time he holstered, he first turned 90 degrees toward me so the muzzle first swept my lane and then everyone to the other side. The second time I saw this I was in a position to reach over and stop his elbow before he could turn. He was pissed that I touched him but what could he really say when I asked him to be more careful about not pointing his gun at people as he holstered?

I have noticed the same thing from the same circles. When I was selling guns it was the cops that came in that pointed guns at people more than any other.

In every class that I'm thinking of, there was no bagging/unbagging/safe-area brief. In every case I got a "really? People don't know how to unbag guns?" response. To which I replied in my head "no, they don't. That's what you get when you refuse to vet students in any way." There are topics where military and LE service better qualifies an instructor, but he subject of the relative competence of the average gun owner is something I'm in a relatively unique position to know something about. As, I'm sure, are many of the other posters here.

IMO the vetting and safety go hand in hand. I run private training days with well-vetted friends. Not everyone knows each other but they all know, and trust and respect, me. When a new guy comes out for the first time he entire safety brief is "that's the rifle rack" and then everyone polices everyone else on the extremely rare case it's needed at all. Contrast that with the 0.5,moped enrollment, introductory courses I was teaching where the safety brief took over an hour at minimum. If instructors want to tell the experienced student that the class is for him AND tell the guy that is going to buy his gun between now and the class that it is for him too, you have to deal with safety directed at the least experienced, or least safe, attendee. You can't fling the doors open wide and then just hope that nobody arrives with a loaded gun with no idea how or where to clear it and sweeps everyone in the process.

[Wendell]

...did you ask all of the attendees if they objected to being filmed?

And does the club have a policy that addresses the use of cameras or other recording devices on the range or on the premises?

[Slavex]

Card has been found. It would be helpful if people would tell you that they dropped your hat cam and that they to put it back into its bracket. The card ejected across the floor when it landed I guess. Sigh.
Anyhow, we have cameras at the range, but only for the parking lots. There is no written policy. However I did ask and inform the class I'd be filming the entire night. All attendees gave permission. I'll be continuing to do this unless someone complains, then will address that at that point.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, as long as the camera's ok, at least all's well that ends well, I guess.