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View Full Version : Why 38 Super? If 9mm x 21 and 9mm x23 Winchester already pre-existed?



cclaxton
11-06-2013, 09:47 AM
Does anyone know the background on why 38 Super was developed?
Since 9x21 and 9x23 pre-existed, why develop 38 super?

CC

JV_
11-06-2013, 10:20 AM
9x21 essentially a 9x19/9mm. The case is 2mm longer, but the bullet is seated 2mm deeper.

It's not a real competitor to 9x23 or 38 Super, it's a 9mm for people that live in a country where civilians can't own a military caliber.

cclaxton
11-06-2013, 10:27 AM
I did find this excellent internet article, but it really doesn't tell me why.
http://38super.net/Pages/9X23.html
CC

Chuck Haggard
11-06-2013, 10:51 AM
The 9x23 is an evolution of the Super. The Super predates both of those other rounds, and itself came from the .38acp. It was basically what was needed to have a .38cal semi auto pistol.

Note that the .38acp predates even the 9mm Luger, and was used in guns like this; http://www.icollector.com/Colt-Military-1902-Cal-38acp-SN-32323-Early-Colt-semi-auto-pistol-in-38acp-Predecessor-to-the-191_i9301841


Paging Tam for a history lesson..................

BLR
11-06-2013, 11:34 AM
Does anyone know the background on why 38 Super was developed?
Since 9x21 and 9x23 pre-existed, why develop 38 super?

CC

Why - More power is more better. Especially when punching through low carbon auto bodies (or at least, that's what I was told).

The Super predates the other two by a bunch of decades.

Chuck Haggard
11-06-2013, 11:58 AM
Best info I have on the .38acp, from which the Super came, is that it dates into the 1890s

cclaxton
11-06-2013, 12:08 PM
Best info I have on the .38acp, from which the Super came, is that it dates into the 1890s

So, I asked the wrong question: Then why the 9x23, if the 38 Super had already been designed?
CC

JAD
11-06-2013, 12:37 PM
So, I asked the wrong question: Then why the 9x23, if the 38 Super had already been designed?
CC

The 9x21 was developed to skirt ipsc's ban on 9x19 loaded to major.

The 9x23 is a rimless (feeds better, stacks better in the magazine) super with a thicker case web (enables imprudence).

9 super comp, and the like, are rimless alternatives to super that do not do as much to enhance case strength.

9x23 was in a sense developed by Jeff Cooper, so I am required to think it's a good idea.

JV_
11-06-2013, 12:44 PM
The 9x21 was developed to skirt ipsc's ban on 9x19 loaded to major. I've never read that as an argument for 9x21's creation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm

The 9×21mm pistol cartridge (also known as the 9×21mm IMI or 9 mm IMI) was designed by Israel Military Industries for those markets where military service cartridges, like the 9×19mm Parabellum, are banned by law for civilian use.

I'm not saying Wikepedia is an authority on gun related items, but this jives with all of my other data-points.

HCM
11-06-2013, 01:03 PM
The 9x21 was developed to skirt ipsc's ban on 9x19 loaded to major.

The 9x23 is a rimless (feeds better, stacks better in the magazine) super with a thicker case web (enables imprudence).

9 super comp, and the like, are rimless alternatives to super that do not do as much to enhance case strength.

9x23 was in a sense developed by Jeff Cooper, so I am required to think it's a good idea.

Derived from the 9mm Super Cooper- .223 cases cut to 38 super length.

I believe the 9x21 was originally developed for civilians in countries which do not allow civilians to own weapons in Military calibers and later adapted to IPSC use. It's an alternative to .30 luger in such places. There is a similar round called .45 HP, basically a civilian legal 45 for countries like France and Italy. This is also why you will occasionally see runs of export AR-15s and Mini 14s in .222 Rem.

The popularity of the .38 super ( and now 40sw & 10mm) in Mexico is also due to their prohibition on possession of military caliber weapons and ammo. This used to extend to Mexican state and local LE as well, though I believe this has changed, at least for agency owned weapons.

John Hearne
11-06-2013, 05:11 PM
This week's edition of Michael Bane's Podcast has a long segment on the 9x23 that covers everything you want to know: http://www.downrange.tv/blog/down-range-radio-340-the-obituary-for-the-9-x-23-winchester/26241/

FWIW, the reports of the 9x23's performance are quite impressive.

Tamara
11-06-2013, 05:36 PM
Best info I have on the .38acp, from which the Super came, is that it dates into the 1890s

My 1902 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2008/10/classic-colt-1-model-1902-military.html) is chambered in .38 ACP. Fortunately some companies make properly-headstamped new ammo. I don't want to get that stuff mixed up with Bobbi's .38 Super fodder.

Interesting trivia fact: ALL .38 Super ammo is +P, since the SAAMI definition of "+P" is a higher pressure cartridge that is dimensionally identical to another extant chambering.

Sal Picante
11-07-2013, 10:55 AM
Wasn't part of the reason that they wanted a long cartridge (.45 ACP length) to ensure feed reliability in the already developed colt .45 ACP pistols?

Chuck Haggard
11-07-2013, 11:15 AM
Wasn't part of the reason that they wanted a long cartridge (.45 ACP length) to ensure feed reliability in the already developed colt .45 ACP pistols?

The .38acp came before the .45acp

JAD
11-07-2013, 11:26 PM
I've never read that as an argument for 9x21's creation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm


I'm not saying Wikepedia is an authority on gun related items, but this jives with all of my other data-points.

Yup, mea maxima culpa, written in a weak moment. X21 got what legs it used to have in the states for the reason I describe, I have heard, though I can't substantiate that. Ditto 356 TSW I dimly recall. Or it's all a groovy-bear / KriegerCleanse driven hallucination.

1986s4
11-08-2013, 09:04 AM
I have enjoyed this thread on the 9mm/.38 auto family. Where does the .356TSW fit in?

BigT
11-08-2013, 02:44 PM
My 1902 (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2008/10/classic-colt-1-model-1902-military.html) is chambered in .38 ACP. Fortunately some companies make properly-headstamped new ammo. I don't want to get that stuff mixed up with Bobbi's .38 Super fodder.

Interesting trivia fact: ALL .38 Super ammo is +P, since the SAAMI definition of "+P" is a higher pressure cartridge that is dimensionally identical to another extant chambering.


Wouldnt the existence of 9mm Glisenti therefore make all 9x19 ammo +P. And as a result 9mm +P would be +P+ . 9mm +P+ would therefore be 9mm turbo OMG!!!!


Or maybe im being absurd on the last one:)

Tamara
11-08-2013, 02:54 PM
Wouldnt the existence of 9mm Glisenti therefore make all 9x19 ammo +P. And as a result 9mm +P would be +P+ . 9mm +P+ would therefore be 9mm turbo OMG!!!!


Or maybe im being absurd on the last one:)

There is no SAAMI spec for 9mm +P+. It's purely a marketing/CYA designation from ammunition manufacturers. (And not all ammo thus marked exceeds SAAMI specs for 9mm +P. Go figure.)

BigT
11-08-2013, 03:22 PM
There is no SAAMI spec for 9mm +P+. It's purely a marketing/CYA designation from ammunition manufacturers. (And not all ammo thus marked exceeds SAAMI specs for 9mm +P. Go figure.)

I am aware of that I was aiming more at the 9x19 Glisenti vs 9x19 Luger/Parabellum/.NATO etc dimensional similarities. The rest was an (obviously a poorly made) attempt at comedy.

Tamara
11-08-2013, 05:07 PM
I am aware of that I was aiming more at the 9x19 Glisenti vs 9x19 Luger/Parabellum/.NATO etc dimensional similarities. The rest was an (obviously a poorly made) attempt at comedy.

Y'know, I don't know if there's a SAAMI spec for the Glisenti round or not? You've tickled my gun nerd now.

I don't know that the ammunition's ever been sold commercially in this country except for small runs of Fiocchi years ago.

Chuck_S
11-09-2013, 08:05 AM
Colt Super .38 was introduced as an automatic pistol cartridge in the 1930s as a response to .357 Magnum. Marketing. :)

-- Chuck

jetfire
11-09-2013, 09:44 AM
Colt Super .38 was introduced as an automatic pistol cartridge in the 1930s as a response to .357 Magnum. Marketing. :)

-- Chuck

That would be a hell of a magic trick, since .38 Super was introduced in 1929, and .357 Magnum wasn't introduced until 5 years later in 1934.

ToddG
11-09-2013, 04:13 PM
That would be a hell of a magic trick, since .38 Super was introduced in 1929, and .357 Magnum wasn't introduced until 5 years later in 1934.

The .38S is so fast, it traveled back in time.

Tamara
11-09-2013, 05:31 PM
The .38S is so fast, it traveled back in time.

You'll get "Super Face" if you don't use 9x23 brass for that trick. :eek:

JAD
11-09-2013, 08:06 PM
The .38S is so fast, it traveled back in time.

Interestingly the one time I shot 9x25 Dillon it aged me by three years.

dbateman
11-10-2013, 03:28 AM
Colt Super .38 was introduced as an automatic pistol cartridge in the 1930s as a response to .357 Magnum. Marketing. :)

-- Chuck

The story I got is it was developed to punch thru auto bodies/glass and body armour at the time.

It's a good round one of my favourite pistol rounds, good all round chambering for SD hunting and general range use.

Gary1911A1
11-10-2013, 07:07 AM
The 38Super was introduced in 1929. Maybe the Depression had something to do with it not taking off? I have three 1911s' in 38Super, one a single stack with a compensator on the end of the barrel I used for IPSC Matches built by Les Baer when he was in Allentown before he went to work at Springfield Custom.

John Hearne
11-10-2013, 09:02 AM
The 38 Super was endorsed by John Dillinger for its ability to punch through auto body. How's that for a celebrity endorsement?

Tamara
11-10-2013, 10:55 AM
The story I got is it was developed to punch thru auto bodies/glass and body armour at the time.

I don't know how much of that is truth and how much is after-the-fact romanticization.

The cartridge itself is a pretty logical up-loading of the existing .38 ACP to take advantage of the greater safety margin of the 1911 design over the earlier "parallel rule" Colt autos.

BLR
11-10-2013, 11:17 AM
The story I got is it was developed to punch thru auto bodies/glass and body armour at the time.

It's a good round one of my favourite pistol rounds, good all round chambering for SD hunting and general range use.

Raw velocity does more for armor (soft or hard) penetration than any other individual factor.

It wasn't until more "modern" steels (meaning less strain rate sensitive, but still "hard") that projectile composition comes into a more significant role. Which is one reason any multifunctional armor is composite (composite as in more than one type, not necessarily "composite" like carbon fiber) nowadays.

Armor and knives make my inner materials engineering nerd all giddy.

Tamara
11-10-2013, 11:37 AM
Smith & Wesson's .38 High Velocity was certainly developed in response to the .38 Super, and popular lore (as sanctified by the official company historian) is that it was designed to give the po-po a better chance to shoot through car bodies and suchlike.

Tamara
11-10-2013, 11:44 AM
Raw velocity does more for armor (soft or hard) penetration than any other individual factor.

It wasn't until more "modern" steels (meaning less strain rate sensitive, but still "hard") that projectile composition comes into a more significant role. Which is one reason any multifunctional armor is composite (composite as in more than one type, not necessarily "composite" like carbon fiber) nowadays.

Armor and knives make my inner materials engineering nerd all giddy.

This is tangentially related to a topic I would like to geek out on in a dedicated thread.

Absurdly oversimplified here, but: The big, flat meplat lead wadcutter plows through the giant block of beef that stymies the screaming tungsten phonograph needle, while the latter goes through the piece of steel that stymies the former.

I have a dim grasp of the factors involved, but I'm always down for some educational programming.

Chuck Haggard
11-10-2013, 12:03 PM
Smith & Wesson's .38 High Velocity was certainly developed in response to the .38 Super, and popular lore (as sanctified by the official company historian) is that it was designed to give the po-po a better chance to shoot through car bodies and suchlike.

I know a retired KHP trooper who still has his first duty gun, a 38-44, and several boxes of issued duty ammo, the Winchester 38 metal piercing load.

Very cool stuff.

BLR
11-10-2013, 01:17 PM
This is tangentially related to a topic I would like to geek out on in a dedicated thread.

Absurdly oversimplified here, but: The big, flat meplat lead wadcutter plows through the giant block of beef that stymies the screaming tungsten phonograph needle, while the latter goes through the piece of steel that stymies the former.

I have a dim grasp of the factors involved, but I'm always down for some educational programming.

You remember Dragon Skin?

Tamara
11-10-2013, 02:31 PM
You remember Dragon Skin?

I did not pay close attention to the whole Dragon Skin thing. I mean, I think I remember the concept behind it: Like a ceramic lorica squamata rather than a single big trauma plate?

Little Creek
11-10-2013, 02:34 PM
In USPSA/IPSC 38 Super (Major) came about in the 1980's. The guns were single stack 1911 pistols with embedded Bomar style sights. The bullet weights were either 130 FMJ or 158 RNL cast hard. Originally factory barrels were used with new +P brass for major loads. Once fired brass and 38ACP brass was used for reduced practice loads. After a few cases of "Super Hand", the web of the shell case blowing out, sending the guts of the magazines out the bottom of the magwell and splintering the grip panels, fully supported barrels were developed that required milling of the Frame. I had two of these, Accucomp LE, built by Wilson Combat. It was not long before double stack magazines and red dot sights took over. Back then the magazine length was limited to flush with the grip frame, without the base pad. It was a fun interesting time.

Will Fennell
10-04-2014, 09:21 PM
Interestingly the one time I shot 9x25 Dillon it aged me by three years.

9x25 with a comp was the least fun handgun experience I ever had.....well, except for the Kahr PM9 that actually Kaboomed.....

ranger
10-04-2014, 09:56 PM
I was an active USPSA competitor in the late 80s and into the 90s and shot the racier pistols of the time. I had an early non-ramped 38 Super single-stack non-optic "comp" gun. I was loading 160 lead round nose and had several case failures and bulged cases - nothing too damaging but certainly scary - seeking "Major". Lots of discussion at that time seeking the "best" 38 Super brass.

I did 9mm major for a while too in a single-stack 9mm 1911 with a 160 LRN loaded "long" in 9mm brass to 38 Super length - this was because 9mm brass was cheaper and readily available plus 38 Super brass was seen as weaker. We used these 9mm long in 38 Super magazines.

I tried the Browning Highpower in 9mm Major for a while to gain more capacity. Then, 9mm major was no longer acceptable in the rules. A good thing for me at the time as the BHP was not a good candidate for 9mm Major at the 175 PF.

Later, I moved to Springfield Armory P9 (CZ75 clone?) in 9x21 with an Aimpoint to skirt the ban on 9mm major and to gain more capacity but I agree that 9x21 was initially available because it was used to skirt the "no military ammo with civilian" issue. This was "state of the art" at the time before the high cap 1911s became available. 9x21 brass was seen as stronger than commonly available 38 Super brass.

As I remember, 9x23 came about to solve the issue with 38 Super "semi rim" design causing issues in the early doublestack 1911 frames (Caspian, Para, and STI/SVI) plus the 9x23 was stronger than 38 Super and it was not 9x19 and therefore "legal" for major.

During this period, my CCW was a Colt Combat Commander in 38 Super - another one that I sold and wished I had back!

ranger
10-04-2014, 09:59 PM
9x25 with a comp was the least fun handgun experience I ever had.....well, except for the Kahr PM9 that actually Kaboomed.....

I remember those - I hate RO'ing those shooters and the 9x25 was extremely hard on steel targets.

will_1400
10-04-2014, 10:26 PM
Holy Necropost, Batman!

On a more serious note, looking at the bullet weight/velocity numbers, it looks like .38 ACP is actually nipping at the heels of standard pressure 9x19mm loads. As in only 100 fps slower with similar bullet weights. Not to shabby if you ignore the limitations of bullet design back in the day.

Rich
10-09-2014, 08:16 PM
There is no SAAMI spec for 9mm +P+. It's purely a marketing/CYA designation from ammunition manufacturers. (And not all ammo thus marked exceeds SAAMI specs for 9mm +P. Go figure.)

Is there SAAMI specs for the 38spl +P+. I haven't seen a reloading manual for the +P+ like the 110 T load.

1slow
10-09-2014, 11:51 PM
I remember those - I hate RO'ing those shooters and the 9x25 was extremely hard on steel targets.

I have wondered if a GL20 with a 6" barrel in 9x25 Dillon with something like a solid copper JHP could be a game changer for anti criminal work. Can you get enough velocity to get rifle type wounds, tear cavity vs stretch cavity?
I have read claims of 125 gr @ 1700-1800 fps but do not know the reality.

1986s4
03-14-2017, 08:27 AM
Any insight to the .356TSW? TSW stands for "Team Smith&Wesson"?

Jim Watson
03-14-2017, 09:52 AM
.356 TSW is 9x21.5 which comes out to the maximum OAL that the S&W 9mm magazine and action will accommodate.
Loaded to Major for stoutly constructed PC match guns, it was their attempt to break into the IPSC market. It did not last.

The semirimmed .38 Auto/.38 Super does fine in Colt type single stack magazines. True rimless rounds do better in double column magazines now required to be competitive in USPSA. The first new attempt at that, apart from overloaded 9x21 and 9mm Largo, was the 9x23 CP Elite. CP had brass made up and offered two chamber reamers; one for a close fit chamber in a new barrel, the other to open up a Super chamber for the tapered case.

Colt picked up on the idea - there are all sorts of stories about legal actions between CP, Colt, and Winchester - and got Winchester to produce the ammo in rifle temper brass because Colt was not willing to incorporate an integral ramp barrel to increase case wall support. Colt did their usual half ass job and offered the caliber only in standard guns with no approach to the competitive arena. They are good guns, powerful and accurate, but they were not going to compete well against the installed base of .45s, .38s, and 9mms. Some of them got Colt conversion kit .38 barrels and magazines (no discernible difference in magazines except marking) and a whole lot of them got 9mm P barrels for cheap ammo.

Starline brought out the 9mm Super Comp with the same external dimensions, but different volume and regular pistol brass hardness. I would not try to equal 9x23 Win ballistics in the Colt gun, although it is fine for Major in a strong racegun. If you want a straight rimless case for your Super barrel in double column gun, they also make .38 Super Comp which is the same as .38 Super except rimless. There is also the .38 TJ, rimless with a huge extractor groove so it will resize all down the case wall.


I once read that the original +P+ designation was used on government agency orders of ammunition, overloaded to the maximum the particular agency's guns would handle and with a liability waiver if it turned out they couldn't. Also things like "Oh, no, we don't shoot overkill .357 Magnum, our Magnum revolvers are loaded with .38 Special."

Buckshot
04-05-2017, 08:35 PM
Is there SAAMI specs for the 38spl +P+. I haven't seen a reloading manual for the +P+ like the 110 T load.

No, the use of the symbol "+P+" means that the pressure is beyond all SAAMI specs & you are on your own as to it's safety. The origin of +P+ goes back to the 38 Spl 110 gr JHP Treasury Dept load. It was originally intended to only be used in 357 Magnum revolvers without their administrators having to deal with any public backlash over using those inhumane Magnum loads on the unsuspecting taxpayers. Agencys had to sign waivers in order to purchase it. Some agencies didn't pay any attention to those waivers & stuck those flamethrowers into every J frame & D frame in the inventory and paid the price in stupendeously accelerated wear & frame stretching.
So, no Rich, you're not going to find +P+ loads in a public source reloading manual, cause we have these things called lawyers...

Lost River
04-06-2017, 09:32 AM
The 9x23 is an evolution of the Super. The Super predates both of those other rounds, and itself came from the .38acp. It was basically what was needed to have a .38cal semi auto pistol.

Note that the .38acp predates even the 9mm Luger, and was used in guns like this; http://www.icollector.com/Colt-Military-1902-Cal-38acp-SN-32323-Early-Colt-semi-auto-pistol-in-38acp-Predecessor-to-the-191_i9301841


Paging Tam for a history lesson..................

1902 Military in .38 ACP:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/049.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/049.jpg.html)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/058.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/058.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/134.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/134.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/138_1.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/138_1.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/122.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/122.jpg.html)


This one has been in the family for a very long time, and has some history.

Jim Watson
04-06-2017, 11:14 AM
Ooh, ooh, TBO.
Prices of the "parallel ruler" Colts have always stayed just ahead of my budget for Kewl Factor.

Tamara
04-07-2017, 02:20 PM
15433

Yours is prettier. :(

BTW, Precision Cartridge sells factory new ammo.

Colt191145lover
04-07-2017, 02:57 PM
More ammo to choose from if needed ...
https://www.buffaloarms.com/38-auto-38-acp-ammunition-124-grain-fmj-box-of-50-amo38auto

Lost River
04-07-2017, 04:28 PM
15433

Yours is prettier. :(

BTW, Precision Cartridge sells factory new ammo.



Yours is cool as heck too!

Thanks for the ammo link, I will keep that in mind. Fortunately .38 Super brass is readily available, and if I ever chose to handload for it, I would not have to worry about mixing up true, much higher pressure Super loads, since I don't own a Super. :)

My particular gun was used by a now deceased family member, some time after WW-II, to settle things with a couple of men who did some bad things to a still living relative, when she was a little girl. Once she passes, I will be able to tell the story, but not until then. The gun was put away for a very long time, and I recall seeing it in my dad's safe when I was young. He did not seem to want to talk about it. My grandmother had mentioned some things about some "troubles", and eventually I figured it out, and confirmed it. With that kind of history, I figured I had better take good care of it, for future generations.