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WDW
10-28-2013, 07:21 PM
Do any of you knifey stabby ECQB folks advocate this style of knife for defensive/offensive purposes? They just seem like they'd be great at cutting people. I found these http://www.dlttrading.com/brk-kar-ruffbuff.html and being such a huge fan boy of Bark River, I'm finding it very hard to pass. These are an extremely limited run & will easily sell for more than they cost if it turned out I hated it.
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/image_zps2897e371.jpg (http://s865.photobucket.com/user/10mm4me/media/image_zps2897e371.jpg.html)

Duces Tecum
10-28-2013, 08:32 PM
There is a fighting style, I believe Indonesian based, taught by Steve Tarani (http://www.karambit.com/about-steve-tarani/) that uses the karambit. Most (but not all) of the techniques require the defender to be unpleasantly close to the attacker. If your nature draws you in that direction, Steve has a sterling reputation and his Art is fully functional.

WDW
10-28-2013, 08:35 PM
There is a fighting style, I believe Indonesian based, taught by Steve Tarani (http://www.karambit.com/about-steve-tarani/) that uses the karambit. Most (but not all) of the techniques require the defender to be unpleasantly close to the attacker. If your nature draws you in that direction, Steve has a sterling reputation and his Art is fully functional.

Thanks. Don't all encounters require the defender to be close though when using a knife?

nycnoob
10-28-2013, 08:56 PM
The ECQC folks do not like Karambits.

(Hey! Why am I angry? I got an angry emoticon, but I am really not!)

You would do better with ECQC questions on SouthNarcs forum this is mostly a gunboard:

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/

Here is the one post I remember best about Karambits

Its from Byron (http://pistol-forum.com/member.php?1164-Byron) who is active both here and at TPI

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showpost.php?p=172753&postcount=17




I was really obsessed with rings on knives for a while: LaGriffes, Kerambits, HAKs, even bird & trout knives. Once one of those things is secure in your hand, it takes a hell of a lot to knock them loose: a quality that I loved.

But try as I might, I've never been able to deploy a ring knife (of any kind) as easily as a more "standard" handle during stress (whether timer, pressure, IFWA, etc). When deploying a ring knife, my initial grip acquisition is always just a hair slower and requires more fine motor control / awareness.

Without looking, I can easily grasp a standard handle while sheathed. When a ring is added to the design, the beginning of my drawstroke starts with the handle grab, but requires an extra step of physically "finding" the ring with my finger(s).

The obvious answer, of course, is more practice. But when I was still obsessed with them, believe me: I did. I definitely refined my drawstroke over time, but there was still always a chance that I would fumble the initial finger placement into the ring.

The fact that this sheath covers the entire handle and only leaves the ring accessible makes this a very unappealing package for me. I'm not saying it's bad; I'm not saying it's "wrong"; it just doesn't appeal to me.




Just found this post from Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny (http://dogbrothers.com/)

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showpost.php?p=163092&postcount=5





I like the kerambit ring for quick access, but don't really like the kerambit blades at all. After my cheapie Emerson Red Chinese folder kerambit knock-off (literally $9.95!) met an unfortunate fate at the hands of the TSA (a stupid story not worth the telling) I actually went out and bought a genuine Emerson because I couldn't find another knock-off and despite the really high price, I really like the draw because it is really fast and for me I believe in it better than pinch gripping while in an adrenal state the way most folders require.

Recently a friend of mine showed me an Emerson "Bull Pup" (or something like that) which has a kerambit type ring and a straight blade in line with the handle. Perfect for me for Pakal EO, but-- bummer!-- no longer being offered by Emerson.

Recently I was visiting Ernie Emerson at his new factory here in LA and mentioned this and he dug up a very similar "CQC-7 Kerambit SF"-- which also is no longer offered.

This has become my new EDC and I like it A LOT. Ernie tells me they will probably offer it again some day.


I do know that SouthNarc does like Ban Tang's Universal Grip Dager which can be held in an Karambit like grip.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1078518-Universal-Grip-Implement

WDW
10-28-2013, 09:13 PM
I can see the grip being an issue in some designs, but this one has a full grip. The ring could be ignored if needed.

nycnoob
10-28-2013, 09:26 PM
I can see the grip being an issue in some designs, but this one has a full grip. The ring could be ignored if needed.

I have studied some FMA in the past. The ring is an integral part of how you use a Karambit you flip the knife around the ring to get "extension". I have trouble finding a clear photo on the internet but you can see it here
Reach down and extend into the groin for a quick hook and pull!


http://kenpokarambit.info/technique2.html

If you did not use the ring then you just have a curved blade. The FMA people did have some cool techniques that only worked with curved blades but I am sure the ECQC people would find them way too fiddly for practical use. Mostly it was about "getting around" a straight blade, so it assumes that your opponent has a knife and that you want to "dance" with him. This is far from the ECQC view of the world.

WDW
10-28-2013, 09:32 PM
Truth be told, I really only want this because of who makes it. I'm confident I could cause damage with it if needed. After all, i do have a brown belt in MCMAP. 😂😂😂😂😂
That counts for something right?

SeriousStudent
10-28-2013, 09:45 PM
I like the Karambit. I carry the old out of stock 5.11 CUB Master a lot, along with my new Clinch Pick.

At the risk of being Captain Obvious, it's very important to get some solid professional instruction with one. (I know, one should seek professional instruction on all deadly weapons). But with a Karambit, you are going to do bad things to yourself really fast.

I'm a big fan of Steve Tarani if you want to get trained with one, or with dang near any other edged weapon.

The thing I like most about a Karambit is the difficulty someone would have disarming me. Honestly, the best way to disarm someone carrying one is to shoot them in the face. A long of the other techniques are easily mitigated.

My very junior low man on the totem pole opinion. But I've been carrying and practicing with one for about a year now, and like it a great deal.

nycnoob
10-28-2013, 10:02 PM
Truth be told, I really only want this because of who makes it. I'm confident I could cause damage with it if needed. After all, i do have a brown belt in MCMAP. 
That counts for something right?


Then get it. I own a bunch of cool knives (including Karambits). Get stuff you like no matter what other people say. The first time I met SN he saw my collection of training knives and laughed, they were not his style, so what, I like em.

WDW
10-28-2013, 10:11 PM
Awesome!!!! I'm going to get this & I will be sure to post pictures of my impending self inflicted puncture wounds & lacerations that are sure to occur once I start playing with this thing.

Dagga Boy
10-28-2013, 10:21 PM
I am a big Karambit fan, but I have also been training with Steve Tarani since the late 90's. I dislike Pikal knives (not blade in, just the purpose built knives), so like a lot of things this stuff is personal. The key is the training. If you aren't willing to put the time in with any of these things, you are just another dude with a piano who can't play. While I don't like Pikal knives myself, I respect the guys who have actually trained with those who know how to run them like Craig Douglas. I look at guys with specialty edged weapons and no training with a bit of a humor. The key with a lot of people who make Karambits is what their training background is like? Do they know where the brakes go, do they understand the geometry and fit? If you want it because you want it, great....free country. I would recommend training, as Karambits in the hands of novices with no training are very likely to bite you. I spent six months with a custom trainer before I got the matching live blade, and have been very blessed to have not cut myself........the center consul of my truck was not so lucky, and I now use the trainer in the car as well.

I just hosted Steve Tarani in Houston last weekend and we spent a few hours on the Karambit. It is an eye opener for most folks, and this class was no different from the many classes I have hosted Steve for. People "get it" when they see it used correctly. I would imagine it is the same for those who get Pikal training from Craig or other dedicated practitioners.

As for speed.......I am pretty fast with a folding Karambit on the deployment side, and that is with a standard one. THe Emerson waved models are even faster, so that is a non-issue for me.

SeriousStudent
10-28-2013, 10:23 PM
If you want to get a trainer, I've found some very useful plastic ones on eBay that replicate the fixed blades. I forgot to mention that.

JHC
10-29-2013, 08:37 AM
Interesting design. I am not sure karambit spinning is going to be as practical in a fight to the death in America vs a saber grip and then rip and keep ripping; versus say in a Filipino knife duel. I have a bit of training in Kali&Escrima I compare with it. Watching the choreography of some of the karambit training reminds me of the early UFC when complex Asian martial art moves got crushed by straight rights.

I like the idea of the design and picked up one of the Bladetech/5.11 folders at the Atlanta Blade Show back when they first came out. Even in most crude and intuitive application I can see how someone could defend themselves pretty well with one insofar as breaking away from a violent assault that justified its use.

Duces Tecum
10-29-2013, 11:31 AM
Thanks. Don't all encounters require the defender to be close though when using a knife?

In most styles there are (typically) three engagement distances: extended (the tip of your blade barely reaches the back of the aggrressor's knife hand; mid (at arm's length, your extended fingers can touch the other fellow's elbow), and close (the distance between you and him approximates the length of your humerus). Clearly, these are optimum measurements and the distances overlap somewhat.

Different schools focus on different distances. Schools emphasizing the karambit tend to concentrate on the "close" range. That's not to say the karambit is unusable at extended range, but that's probably not it's happy place. Other knife arts focus on mid or extended ranges. They may have close range techniques, but they're designed to operate best when there's more distance between players.

Selecting a knife art requires some thought: primarily, at what distance do you most comfortably fight? A couple of years ago I discovered a secondary filter that I'd never considered previously. After the fact, it seemed obvious, but it was revelatory at the time. The Marines have a unit of combative instructors at Camp Pendleton, and I was asked to introduce them to a certain type knife fighting. There was sparring towards the end of the class and the instructors who used what they'd learned that day did, I thought, rather well. Nonetheless, the senior Marine instructors weren't impressed.

It was a three hour drive home, giving plenty of time to reflect on what happened. Eventually, it became clear: the (new) approach did not account for either person wearing body armor. Their "regulation" knife techniques were predicated on the Good Guy being armored. That made a huge difference. When you're selecting a knife art, distance is still, I think, the prime filter. But the most surprising secondary considerations can appear.

Dagga Boy
10-29-2013, 11:36 AM
Interesting design. I am not sure karambit spinning is going to be as practical in a fight to the death in America vs a saber grip and then rip and keep ripping; versus say in a Filipino knife duel. I have a bit of training in Kali&Escrima I compare with it. Watching the choreography of some of the karambit training reminds me of the early UFC when complex Asian martial art moves got crushed by straight rights.

I like the idea of the design and picked up one of the Bladetech/5.11 folders at the Atlanta Blade Show back when they first came out. Even in most crude and intuitive application I can see how someone could defend themselves pretty well with one insofar as breaking away from a violent assault that justified its use.

Most stuff you see on video from anything is "choreographed". Anyone who has watched Tarani do a live full speed non choreographed demo will attest that a straight right will get your ass handed to you in a hurry. The "spinning" is simply doing something that the Karambit can do that other knives cannot-it can make multiple cuts on the same strike. I can also "push and hack" in retracted, and "pull with extended reach" in extended. I have a pretty well set of very basics things I do with a Karambit that simply enhance my normal defensive tactics. A punch with a retracted karambit is much more effective than a simple punch. A block is enhanced, counters to BJJ holds are enhanced with a tool, and I can use it with a firearm in my hand as well. Another benefit is that disarming them both on purpose or by accident is nearly impossible. I also like that I can use my aluminum trainer as a less lethal control tool with all of the same techniques used with the live blade. These are all plusses for me. I have dedicated the training time and like the system. Its not an end all be all, but I like it as an enhancement of my primary martial art, which is firearms use.

Mitchell, Esq.
10-29-2013, 12:04 PM
There is a fighting style, I believe Indonesian based, taught by Steve Tarani (http://www.karambit.com/about-steve-tarani/) that uses the karambit. Most (but not all) of the techniques require the defender to be unpleasantly close to the attacker. If your nature draws you in that direction, Steve has a sterling reputation and his Art is fully functional.

Unpleasantly close?

I was unaware of any fighting style except lawsuits, drone strikes or sniping that permitted you to be able to inflict injury on other people without being in retaliatory distance.

Everything revolving around the use of a knife in personal defense is unpleasant, and close.

Knife usage in personal defense is more likely to look like a monkey with a sharp stick than FMA.

JHC
10-29-2013, 03:14 PM
Most stuff you see on video from anything is "choreographed". Anyone who has watched Tarani do a live full speed non choreographed demo will attest that a straight right will get your ass handed to you in a hurry. The "spinning" is simply doing something that the Karambit can do that other knives cannot-it can make multiple cuts on the same strike. I can also "push and hack" in retracted, and "pull with extended reach" in extended. I have a pretty well set of very basics things I do with a Karambit that simply enhance my normal defensive tactics. A punch with a retracted karambit is much more effective than a simple punch. A block is enhanced, counters to BJJ holds are enhanced with a tool, and I can use it with a firearm in my hand as well. Another benefit is that disarming them both on purpose or by accident is nearly impossible. I also like that I can use my aluminum trainer as a less lethal control tool with all of the same techniques used with the live blade. These are all plusses for me. I have dedicated the training time and like the system. Its not an end all be all, but I like it as an enhancement of my primary martial art, which is firearms use.

Cool. Some of the vids were of Tarani but they were not live full but training in the indigenous garb. My straight right analogy was not in the context of a counter to a knife.

Thanks!

Dagga Boy
10-29-2013, 07:41 PM
I've trained with Steve for a lot of years, and I have done enough full speed demos as the "Meat Puppet" that I can assure you that the only way I ever want to deal with Steve in any kind of fight is to be "dialing more elevation" on my sniper rifle.

The best video I ever saw of Steve was at a Dog Brothers gathering many years ago when he delivered one of the most impressive destructions of an opponent I have ever seen........like spray and meat coming out of the fencing mask ugly. I have also been stupid enough to have rolled with Steve and to have "tried" various techniques cold and at speed with him, and the reason I stay with him is that his stuff works. The true test has come in actual fights I have been in and some of the "simple" stuff that is the foundation of his teaching has worked on auto-pilot. I was in an altercation last summer involving a live edged weapon deployment that worked out very well for me, and the "Thank You" call was made to Steve for the training.

WDW
10-29-2013, 08:02 PM
Are there any credible karambit training DVD's that give good, basic demos that a novice could practice as traveling to attend a course is a non-option right now.

I'm not thinking I will master anything through the tv, but I could practice some basic handling & maneuvering on a dummy.

One thing that has drawn me to the kerambit is the control & manipulation factor you can achieve with the blade profile & grip. I also like the retention factor you get with this knife. I'm going to contact Bark River & see if they'll make me a non lethal training replica of my exact knife.

Dagga Boy
10-29-2013, 08:15 PM
You can some times track down the old Karambit Videos from Steve, and he has two books floating around as well.

Steve's stuff is a combination of both Indonesian techniques and Filipino. Others out there use different techniques, and I don't know enough about others as to what is worthwhile and what isn't.

SeriousStudent
10-29-2013, 09:21 PM
You can some times track down the old Karambit Videos from Steve, and he has two books floating around as well.

Steve's stuff is a combination of both Indonesian techniques and Filipino. Others out there use different techniques, and I don't know enough about others as to what is worthwhile and what isn't.

WDW: Steve has three DVD's in his "The Naked Edge" series. They work in a building block fashion, like his live classes.

I have five of his printed books, there is a sixth out of print one I'm still working to track down.

My two favorite of his books are "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight" and "The Art of Disarming". His Karambit-specific book is "Mastering the Curved Blade". It's a good companion to the videos.

If you look on eBay, they pop up a couple of times a year. Good luck, I feel they are worth the effort to find.