NoVA KSTG 2013-10-29

[kle]

A friend has asked if this is to be a "Halloween-Themed" match, and if it would be germane to dress in-costume for the match.

FWIW, I won't be dressing up. Unless "code monkey at the end of the day and strapping on a [wheel]gun" counts as a costume.

[ToddG]

Anyone shooting a revolver will be required to wear either a cowboy outfit or a security truck guard uniform.

[kle]

I have a fake cowboy hat (not a Stetson, but a cheap wool doohicky in the shape of one) and I think I can scrounge up a plow-handle wheelgun and a holster to go along with it...

I was maybe thinking something more like...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xjr2hnOHiM

[kle]

I have a fake cowboy hat (not a Stetson, but a cheap wool doohicky in the shape of one) and I think I can scrounge up a plow-handle wheelgun and a holster to go along with it...

Now that I think of it, no common single-action wheelgun would be appropriate: the shortest common 4-5/8" barrel length (used to match the length of the ejector rod housing, which itself is of a certain length in order to provide full/near-full ejection of a spent casing from the cylinder) is longer than the maximum revolver barrel length of 4" in the KSTG rulebook.

And speaking of the revolver rules...PM on the way.

[joshs]

The match will have a Halloween theme. Costumes are certainly welcome, and, as Todd pointed out, required for revolver shooters.

[kle]

The match will have a Halloween theme. Costumes are certainly welcome, and, as Todd pointed out, required for revolver shooters.

So just me, then. Got it. "Disheveled Code Monkey" it is, then =)

[abu fitna]

Folks - Thanks again for an excellent match. Sorry the early squads were so empty, but it was good to have a chance to enjoy the holiday theme. The designers are to be commended on superb creativity to create problems befitting the season.

And as always, the night shoots are a great reminder of why one's match ammo should probably be the same as one's carry ammo for flash suppressing properties if nothing else. While so many of us have been running cheap fodder in the face of the shortage, given the relatively moderate round count required for matches there is a great argument to be made that it is worth the investment.

[Vinh]

Thanks for the match, guys!

[JSGlock34]

Thanks again for an entertaining match. I must say that the 9pm squad had the most diverse selection of sidearms I've yet to encounter at a KSTG match.

[MDS]

Fun match, great crew and thanks to the participants for hustling with the taping it really helped things go smooth. And thanks to FredM for the loaner gear!

[JConn]

Thank you to everyone who showed up. Everyone was safe and involved and that makes the match more fun for everyone. Christmas apocalypse for the next match?

[David S.]

Thanks guys for a fun first match.

[MDS]

Christmas apocalypse for the next match?

Rabid reindeer and chucky dolls in gift wrap? I like it!

[kle]

"protect a gift" in one hand, while retreating from a rabid reindeer while engaging it with your sidearm strong-hand-only? Well...we've done that before. Maybe not a herd of zombie reindeer, though. Moving/Active targets might be cool if we can wing it: some other shooting events at the NRA HQ Range have incorporated moving targets on motorized pulleys and gravity-powered "zip-wire"-type targets (and of course there's the motorized electronic carriers that can be used).

I enjoyed the return of the low-light stage(s) this time (first time in nearly two years, as I recall - the first KSTG in December, 2011 was the only other match to feature a low light stage that required a flash light, as I recall), and I'm pleased that my 'gun' (handcannon) was sufficiently powerful to make good hits on the targets =)

[JV_]

I enjoyed the return of the low-light stage(s) this time (first time in nearly two years, as I recall - the first KSTG in December, 2011 We've had a low(er) light stage since then. I don't recall when, but I can picture the stage in my head.

[kle]

We've had a low(er) light stage since then. I don't recall when, but I can picture the stage in my head.

I think you're right. I don't recall any that actually required the use of a flashlight except that first match; it was simply darker.

[JV_]

Agreed.

It's difficult to setup a stage in there that blocks out all of the light and doesn't take forever to setup.

[Keys1970]

Will results be posted?

[joshs]

Will results be posted?

They'll be posted tonight or tomorrow.

[zeroflux]

Thank you for putting on a fun match. Best one this year in mu humble opinion.

[joshs]

Thanks to everyone who came out for the match.

[ToddG]

Way to go Vinh!

[Arclight]

Thanks to everyone who came out for the match.

Great match... I really liked the fun stages and the low-light aspect. Got to use a slightly different set of skills than just "fast" or "far" (and it didn't feel fast, but it did feel fun).

...Now I just wish I had something that opens XLS files...

[2501]

This was my first KSTG match, and I have to say that I probably won't be shooting it again. $25 for three stages, 35 or so rounds, and 70 seconds of shooting is pretty ridiculous. I appreciate that people are competing to become more proficient, but that COF was ridiculously easy. The only thing that KSTG has going for it over IDPA is a hot range, and I would love to see that carried over to the rest of the shooting world. Shooters can trash talk LEOs shooting ability all day (and I concur on most points) but we manage to carry loaded guns without ND'ing on a regular basis. I'm not sure why incredibly competent shooters are so horrified at the thought of a hot range - I get range safety, but USPSA/IDPA take it too far.

I'd rather get slaughtered shooting USPSA limited using an appendix holster and a compact 9mm for the same entry fee; the stages are longer, require more thought, you move further than five meters, and there are a lot more than three stages.

[Vinh]

Woah, crazy! (Absence of the TLG and JV duly noted.) I actually went home thinking I'd like to someday get through a match without incurring a penalty of some sort.

[LittleLebowski]

2501, find a good local venue for an outside KSTG match and see what happens. Most of your complaints are actually about where the match is staged. The NRA range is somewhat limiting, no? KSTG is always looking for a volunteers to help with match setup if you would like to effect some real change.

[Arclight]

This was my first KSTG match, and I have to say that I probably won't be shooting it again. $25 for three stages, 35 or so rounds, and 70 seconds of shooting is pretty ridiculous. I appreciate that people are competing to become more proficient, but that COF was ridiculously easy. I'd rather get slaughtered shooting USPSA limited using an appendix holster and a compact 9mm for the same entry fee; the stages are longer, require more thought, you move further than five meters, and there are a lot more than three stages.

To be fair, other than the low-light and holiday theme aspects of this match, it was a bit simpler, shorter and less involved than most KSTG matches tend to be. While your comments aren't unreasonable (as noted above, the venue is a limiting factor, for one), I'd hold that judgement until you've seen/shot more than one.

As for it being ridiculously easy, it was one of the easiest KSTG matches I can remember thanks to the short ranges and relatively simple stages, but only Vinh can say it was "too easy". The rest of us had room for improvement.

[ToddG]

This was my first KSTG match, and I have to say that I probably won't be shooting it again.

2501 -- Sorry the match didn't meet your expectations. KSTG is definitely going to be different from a USPSA match and if the USPSA-ish aspects of the shooting sports are what you like best, that's a better outlet for you. Certainly no hard feelings on anyone's part here.

The match this month was the victim of some chaos. I had committed to designing the stages and being there for setup, but due to an emergency out-of-state I had to bail late Sunday. That gave the rest of the crew little time to come up with the stages and also left them short-handed for setup. Given the limited venue and limited time we get to set up (match starts at 5pm, we get access to the range as late as 3pm sometimes meaning we get two hours to set everything up and get the ROs through the match to make sure everything is running properly), being down a guy for setup is a big deal.

So if you're going to be upset about the match itself, the blame for that lies with me. If you're displeased with the rules/sport in general, that's also primarily my fault. Thanks for giving it a try and best of luck in your future competitive endeavors.

[JV_]

(as noted above, the venue is a limiting factor, for one)Agreed.

The venue is pretty limiting when you consider that we can't have rounds hit the floor, wall or ceiling. The further you move towards the shooting booths, the more difficult it is to plan for tall and short shooters because the vertical spread of targets is greatly reduced. When everything gets bunched up at the backstop, the width of a stage becomes an issue - unless you want to have 2 stages. Occasionally we run a larger stage and have you run it from L-R and R-L, but you can only do that so many times. I'm in favor of the cleanup stage, but those require some planning too.

The venue, and as Todd pointed out - the lack of time from range setup to first squad, are the two biggest limiting factors.

ETA: 2501: If you have some ideas to improve the matches, while working within the facility restrictions, I'd be interested to hear your ideas.

[LittleLebowski]

The match planners are always looking for help in stage design and setup.

[cclaxton]

Woah, crazy! (Absence of the TLG and JV duly noted.) I actually went home thinking I'd like to someday get through a match without incurring a penalty of some sort.

Vihn, Great job!

I am just happy about Stage 2: I beat everybody...even Josh.
I realized I was just point-shooting on STage 1, which worked for the last target but didn't on the first one. I didn't need the flashlight for stages 1 and 3, but I wanted to get practice with my new Zenix PD22...and I realized that I need a lot more practice!

Cody

[Kyle Reese]

Thank you to everyone for coming out and making this a great match!

[cclaxton]

This was my first KSTG match, and I have to say that I probably won't be shooting it again. $25 for three stages, 35 or so rounds, and 70 seconds of shooting is pretty ridiculous. I appreciate that people are competing to become more proficient, but that COF was ridiculously easy. The only thing that KSTG has going for it over IDPA is a hot range, and I would love to see that carried over to the rest of the shooting world. Shooters can trash talk LEOs shooting ability all day (and I concur on most points) but we manage to carry loaded guns without ND'ing on a regular basis. I'm not sure why incredibly competent shooters are so horrified at the thought of a hot range - I get range safety, but USPSA/IDPA take it too far.

I'd rather get slaughtered shooting USPSA limited using an appendix holster and a compact 9mm for the same entry fee; the stages are longer, require more thought, you move further than five meters, and there are a lot more than three stages.

2501: I shoot IDPA and USPSA as well. I enjoy those sports, and I agree there is more value to a $20-25 fee with a 6-10 stage match that takes 3-6 hours. I suspect that a lot of that fee goes to the rental of the NRA range for the event and support staff.

But let me make a case for the KSTG match and why I justify the time/expense:
- There aren't many facilities where you can do low-light/no-light stages in this area unless you are LE and have access to a police/federal range, and even then it's not competition.
- In the winter/cold-months, this is a heated indoor range that makes it more attractive. in the summer, it's air conditioned;
- The match only takes an hour, and I live 10 min drive away (Okay, maybe 30 at rush hour), and it is easy to get in/out and get in some action-pistol practice;
- The KSTG group are pushing the edge in terms of action pistol: Appendix Carry, Push-out refinement, flashlights and knives, and generally great people to discuss the "bleeding edge" of technology and performance (I could not resist that euphemism);
- The KSTG rules challenge me to be more tactical in my shooting, such as muzzle not past cover, higher penalties for non-threats, and smaller targets for head shots;
- $25 is not a lot of moolah considering the cost of driving to Fredericksburg or Peacemaker or Annapolis to shoot their matches, and the considerable time it takes to drive, shoot and eat.

The way I look at the higher fee is: At least $10 is a donation to the NRA Range, and they are great people, and it is the best department of the NRA, IMHO.
Cody

[JV_]

I suspect that a lot of that fee goes to the rental of the NRA range for the event and support staff.

Just to be clear : There's no pay for us, Todd, or anyone else that isn't an NRA Range employee. They charge what they charge and handle the signups. We set it up and run it. We get nothing out of doing the setup and match running, other than the setup staff doesn't pay for the entry fee.

[cclaxton]

Just to be clear : There's no pay for us, Todd, or anyone else that isn't an NRA Range employee. They charge what they charge and handle the signups. We set it up and run it. We get nothing out of doing the setup and match running, other than the setup staff doesn't pay for the entry fee.

JV, Josh, Todd: Thank you all for your service to the sport and action pistol....can't say "Thank You!" enough.

I definitely enjoyed the match...it was perfect timing for me to practice flashlight shooting.

Money isn't everything. I get satisfaction when I SO/MD out of helping people improve their gun-handling...as long as they are safe... *Sometimes* I get satisfaction from knowing I can shoot faster/better...just being honest.

Next year I will bring silver bullets....so have a cage full of live werewolves ready!
Cody

[abu fitna]

I will echo the comments of others in response to the gentleman's criticisms. I understand the limitations of the range space, and think that the staff do a hell of good job setting things up under tight timelines to create innovative and challenging problems.

While most stages are short encounters, (when not holiday themed for fun) the stages generally mimic a wide range of shoot problems that are absolutely things I would need to continue to train against. Sometimes I may debate the relative design of a stage in terms of forcing a specific solution to a problem, but no one can say it is not fair in that all folks have to solve it the same way (or fail) - and I can curse only myself for (lack of) performance then, and add another set of items to the training and practice list. That alone is worth the time and coin.

The fact that this is run weekdays, relatively close for most participants, means that coming in to shoot cold in immediate violence of action creates a much more representative dataset on one's performance than the longer build up, half day or day long practical matches elsewhere. I am a big fan of Mr Davis' IDPA matches out at Peacemaker, complete with vehicles and a range of other fun things across multiple bays - but that is more than a bit of a drive, and ultimately results in a different feel to the day. Both have their place, and I would be loathe to lose either.

As far as cost, to support NRA (faults and all) I would pay quite a bit more as needed. To support the staff, and the development of a robust venue for experimentation, discussion, and learning I would likewise be more than willing to put additional cash on the barrelhead in order to see this thing continue. I look forward to seeing it expanded to other venues as well (not to eliminate the NRA event, but to build on it) - and hopefully we will see the Dayton match as discussed.

[JV_]

Thanks for the support.

cc - Don't forget MEH, JConn, FredM, Mario, and Bill.


Sometimes I may debate the relative design of a stage in terms of forcing a specific solution to a problem, but no one can say it is not fair in that all folks have to solve it the same way (or fail) - and I can curse only myself for (lack of) performance then, and add another set of items to the training and practice list. That alone is worth the time and coin.

One thing we try to consider is not penalizing someone for being a lefty or shooting a revolver (5 vs 6 shots). We can't make every stage neutral, but it's something we're considering when coming up with the stages.

[zeroflux]

I will echo the comments of others in response to the gentleman's criticisms. I understand the limitations of the range space, and think that the staff do a hell of good job setting things up under tight timelines to create innovative and challenging problems.

While most stages are short encounters, (when not holiday themed for fun) the stages generally mimic a wide range of shoot problems that are absolutely things I would need to continue to train against. Sometimes I may debate the relative design of a stage in terms of forcing a specific solution to a problem, but no one can say it is not fair in that all folks have to solve it the same way (or fail) - and I can curse only myself for (lack of) performance then, and add another set of items to the training and practice list. That alone is worth the time and coin.

The fact that this is run weekdays, relatively close for most participants, means that coming in to shoot cold in immediate violence of action creates a much more representative dataset on one's performance than the longer build up, half day or day long practical matches elsewhere. I am a big fan of Mr Davis' IDPA matches out at Peacemaker, complete with vehicles and a range of other fun things across multiple bays - but that is more than a bit of a drive, and ultimately results in a different feel to the day. Both have their place, and I would be loathe to lose either.

As far as cost, to support NRA (faults and all) I would pay quite a bit more as needed. To support the staff, and the development of a robust venue for experimentation, discussion, and learning I would likewise be more than willing to put additional cash on the barrelhead in order to see this thing continue. I look forward to seeing it expanded to other venues as well (not to eliminate the NRA event, but to build on it) - and hopefully we will see the Dayton match as discussed.

I concur with Abu Fitna. On a different subject, Abu Fitna is a pretty humorous moniker. I assume you speak and understand Arabic? ;-)

Any idea when the scores will be posted?

[JV_]

Any idea when the scores will be posted?Look at post #21 in this thread.

http://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1882&d=1383182113

[JConn]

This was my first KSTG match, and I have to say that I probably won't be shooting it again. $25 for three stages, 35 or so rounds, and 70 seconds of shooting is pretty ridiculous. I appreciate that people are competing to become more proficient, but that COF was ridiculously easy. The only thing that KSTG has going for it over IDPA is a hot range, and I would love to see that carried over to the rest of the shooting world. Shooters can trash talk LEOs shooting ability all day (and I concur on most points) but we manage to carry loaded guns without ND'ing on a regular basis. I'm not sure why incredibly competent shooters are so horrified at the thought of a hot range - I get range safety, but USPSA/IDPA take it too far.

I'd rather get slaughtered shooting USPSA limited using an appendix holster and a compact 9mm for the same entry fee; the stages are longer, require more thought, you move further than five meters, and there are a lot more than three stages.

I'm sorry to hear that the match did not meet your expectations. The match did not have our normal round count as we try to be around 50 rounds. However we wanted to try some things that were different, have some fun, and incorporate low light into the match. We also were barely getting squads through in an hour which is our time limit. As to the difficulty, unless I'm shooting a stage better than Todd or JoshS or JV, I know I never consider the match easy. Also, we try and make these matches accessible to a broad range of people while still making them fun for the best shooters. This means that while someone like Todd may not have his skills pushed by the stage design (distance, size, number of targets) that does not mean that it is easy. You can always shoot better and improve your speed and accuracy.

Also I'll restate as JV said the staff apart from nra staff are all volunteering an afternoon of their time to make these matches possible. All fees are for the NRA range.

I would urge you to come to one of our other matches as we tend to tackle very different challenges every month.

Thank you for your honesty though. I can only speak for myself but I'm confident in saying that we are always looking for ways to make the matches better.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[zeroflux]

Look at post #21 in this thread.

http://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1882&d=1383182113

Thanks JV. I missed it. This thread is growing fast.

[cclaxton]

Thanks for the support.
cc - Don't forget MEH, JConn, FredM, Mario, and Bill.

Oh, yeah! THANKS to you all.
Also, put my name in the hat to help you all set up or organize or admin. Not sure I know the rules well enough to run the timer, but I am certified IDPA SO.
Cody

[JAD]

I'm sure it's been done before, but I'd love to shoot a set of stages built around the shootings that Rangemaster alumni have documented. I'm not sure the round count and complexity would please everyone, but it'd be kind of instructive. Of course, it would work better as a surprise match, and I've set up and run too many of those already in my brief time.

[Mjohn3006]

Awesome! It was a great event. It made me want to shoot in the dark more often.

Mike