Say what? FBI to investigate Santa Rosa shooting?

[Tamara]

Looks like the Police Department is going to get Zimmerman'ed (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/26/fbi-to-investigatecalifadolescentkilledbypolice.html)?

Money quote from the article:

FBI spokesman Paul Lee said he did not know why his agency decided to get involved...
Well that makes two of us, Paul.

[LittleLebowski]

Looks like the Police Department is going to get Zimmerman'ed (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/10/26/fbi-to-investigatecalifadolescentkilledbypolice.html)?

Money quote from the article:

Well that makes two of us, Paul.

You missed the part about the hoodie, Tam. That means it was a hate crime.

[BaiHu]

Wait, are guns good or bad?

A kid walking around with a realistic looking AK is good, but a kid pointing his finger in the shape of a gun is bad :confused:

Cops, the only ones responsible enough to carry guns (according to the antis), are now bad :confused:

So are cops bad and kids good or are guns simply an inanimate object that are only 'good' or 'bad' depending on how/who they're used by :confused:

Dang, I just can't follow the narrative :(

[Tamara]

So are cops bad and kids good or are guns simply an inanimate object that are only 'good' or 'bad' depending on how/who they're used by :confused:

That's just crazy talk.

[GardoneVT]

The Democrats' political power rests on the minority vote,especially Latinos and especially in California. If the Dems want to retain the perception of being pro minority, they periodically need to send some white cops to the defendants chair in court .The fact that it's a mockery of the justice system is irrelevant to such pols.Gotta keep the approval ratings high!

[Totem Polar]

FBI involvement is somewhat disconcerting. On the other hand, I see that we've gone from "toy gun" to pellet rifle as the media ambles towards getting some facts together.

[Tamara]

...as the media ambles towards getting some facts together.

"Helmsman, move the throttle from 'Benghazi' to 'healthcare.gov'."

[BaiHu]

Lol! Tam...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

So I guess that the new standard is that when L/E see people with firearms....especially when combined with a hoodie, just keep driving along as we should assume that it is a "toy". Next time a school calls for some student shooting up the place, don't send anyone, because they are "just kids" who are totally unable to hurt anyone........and they never have real guns, just common toys. Next time a robbery call comes in with a teen wearing a hoodie and a gun, don't send anyone, because it is just "role playing with toys". The best bet will be to call the FBI instead of 911 so it will be handled properly.

Most police don't really do much looking for serious bad bad guys. When we tell the ones that are to no longer engage bad guys and to simply hide, plan on nice people getting lots of tickets and stupid administrative enforcement efforts, while the criminals are given a pass and allowed to pray at will. When the L/E folks stop policing in the places that need it the most, turns those places into a hell hole for those who can't get out.

[Tamara]

So I guess that the new standard is that when L/E see people with firearms....especially when combined with a hoodie, just keep driving along as we should assume that it is a "toy". Next time a school calls for some student shooting up the place, don't send anyone, because they are "just kids" who are totally unable to hurt anyone........and they never have real guns, just common toys. Next time a robbery call comes in with a teen wearing a hoodie and a gun, don't send anyone, because it is just "role playing with toys". The best bet will be to call the FBI instead of 911 so it will be handled properly.

Most police don't really do much looking for serious bad bad guys. When we tell the ones that are to no longer engage bad guys and to simply hide, plan on nice people getting lots of tickets and stupid administrative enforcement efforts, while the criminals are given a pass and allowed to pray at will. When the L/E folks stop policing in the places that need it the most, turns those places into a hell hole for those who can't get out.

I don't think anything's going to come of this. Anybody with two brain cells to rub together is going to look at that airsoft AK and go "Oh, okay, yeah. Me, too."

[Dagga Boy]

Apparently, a lot of one brain cell people have access to the internet.........and the FBI works for them.

[ToddG]

Apparently, a lot of one brain cell people have access to the internet.........and the FBI works for them.

But that's just it. A few morons in power wave their hands and the FBI has to scramble to investigate a case where even the agents involved are like, WTF?

[LittleLebowski]

I'm betting on more FBI/Justice dept investigations in LE in the next 3 years or so.

[Tamara]

...and the FBI works for them.

Have you never, in your entire po-po'ing career, investigated a ghost in a back yard just to shut a persistent caller up?

(I don't know that this one has generated enough national media attention for the White House to order Holder to use it as a distraction from the scandal du jour. Zimmerman, OTOH, had legs from the jumpoff.)

[Dagga Boy]

Have you never, in your entire po-po'ing career, investigated a ghost in a back yard just to shut a persistent caller up?

(I don't know that this one has generated enough national media attention for the White House to order Holder to use it as a distraction from the scandal du jour. Zimmerman, OTOH, had legs from the jumpoff.)

Yep, most street cops have.............ask an FBI agent the same question. How many times have the FBI gone out to investigate what happened to Mrs. Johnson's cat after the local P.D. "dropped the ball".:confused:

If the local agents can't figure out why they are looking at a case, I would venture that means that FBI headquarters and the DOJ is the source of the interest.

[TCinVA]

I'm betting on more FBI/Justice dept investigations in LE in the next 3 years or so.

Let me be absolutely clear, no one is angrier about police shooting dudes who point guns at them than I am. I have directed the administration to provide all necessary resources in the effort to root out cops who would shoot uncooperative dudes in a gang neighborhood toting an AK-47. I'm appointing a task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden to get to the bottom of this phenomenon of cops acting stupidly and killing uncooperative dudes armed with an AK-47 in a gang neighborhood. The taskforce will work with a wide array of federal agencies to blah blah blah blah BLEAAAAARRRRGH....




If the local agents can't figure out why they are looking at a case, I would venture that means that FBI headquarters and the DOJ is the source of the interest.

I would view a public statement like that as FBI field agents saying, essentially "This is a smurfing goat-smurf foisted upon us by the smurfing moron Attorney General's office, which is staffed almost entirely by smurfing dumb-smurfs dedicated solely to the political best interests of our smurfing man-child in smurfing chief."

Of course, that's just my view.

Politics has always sucked, but in the last several years I think we're hitting new lows, at least for my lifetime. It's as if the very nature of reality is now fungible.

[NickA]

Let me be absolutely clear, no one is angrier about police shooting dudes who point guns at them than I am. I have directed the administration to provide all necessary resources in the effort to root out cops who would shoot uncooperative dudes in a gang neighborhood toting an AK-47. I'm appointing a task force headed by Vice President Joe Biden to get to the bottom of this phenomenon of cops acting stupidly and killing uncooperative dudes armed with an AK-47 in a gang neighborhood. The taskforce will work with a wide array of federal agencies to blah blah blah blah BLEAAAAARRRRGH....

Need to replace "dudes" with "folks" and it's an A+ ;)

[Dagga Boy]

As I have done in the past, I will pose a very simple question to the FBI. What, according to FBI training protocols, should an officer do when a subject points something at them that anyone with more than two brain cells (thanks to TAM for what the standard is) would say is an AK47 without actually holding it themselves. What nugget of super training is the FBI using that would allow this incident to be handled differently, other than not patrolling gang inhabited neighborhood (which I believe they have mastered). So, would be the answer be to only have the police act like firemen, and simply respond to an emergency after it has happened from the station? THAT may be the wave of the future in American policing. It may actually be the smart thing to do and allow those neighborhoods who seem to not want L/E around to have law enforcement respond with the fire department to clean up the mess, they will have a place to call in a phone report of robbery, rape, burglary, theft, or abuse for documentation purposes, and rich people will live like I do in a fortress like compound that is patrolled very actively and NOBODY is allowed in without specific permission from the person they are visiting.

I don't know if we REALLY want a level of policing that is wealth dependent, but it is the direction we are headed, with "Private Security Contractors" handling "patrol" operations in wealthy areas, and government supplied clean up in those places where they cannot provide their own patrol operations. Pretty sad, but that is what "Progressive" seems to encompass these days.

[Tamara]

The hooraw is presupposing that the FBI investigation actually results in anything other than "Yup, they were right."

I'm sure Holder's gotten calls from Mothers Against Shooting Kids Who Were Just Turning Their Lives Around Or Otherwise Not Doing Nothing, Just Minding Their Own Business, and now he can tell them he has Done Something.

All the Effa Bee Eye has to do now is drag their feet for a week on filing the report until MASKWWJTTLAOONDNJMTOB finds another cause celebre.

[Duces Tecum]

I see this as more of a political decision. The cop is clearly going to be exonerated, but if his home department gives him the "by" the FSA will think bad thoughts. Better allow the FBI to clear the cop and then we can all return to business.

[BLR]

MASKWWJTTLAOONDNJMTOB.

:confused:

[Tamara]

:confused:

The new social justice protest organization, "Mothers Against Shooting Kids Who Were Just Turning Their Lives Around Or Otherwise Not Doing Nothing, Just Minding Their Own Business"

[Sal Picante]

I find it interesting that this article makes ado about the deputy's (who is now named) training/background...

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20131028/articles/310281004?title=Deputy-who-shot-Santa-Rosa-boy-ID'd#page=1

Wonder if there was something that smacked of "hate speech"? Just wondering out loud...

[Tamara]

I find it interesting that this article makes ado about the deputy's (who is now named) training/background...

I am absolutely 100% dead certain it was a good shoot now.

(Although this (http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/13-year-old-shot-death-police-open-carrying-toy-rifle/) ignorant bit of yellow journalism has got me feeling pretty HULK SMASH! How many free shots does that thimble-headed gherkin think the cops should give the bad guy so as to make sure it's not an airsoft gun or carved out of a bar of soap or whatever?)

[wilco423]

I find it interesting that this article makes ado about the deputy's (who is now named) training/background...

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20131028/articles/310281004?title=Deputy-who-shot-Santa-Rosa-boy-ID'd#page=1
Well, no wonder Doc and Nyeti knew the facts early. Very stand-up guy; hope his department continues to be supportive.

[LittleLebowski]

I am absolutely 100% dead certain it was a good shoot now.

(Although this (http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/13-year-old-shot-death-police-open-carrying-toy-rifle/) ignorant bit of yellow journalism has got me feeling pretty HULK SMASH! How many free shots does that thimble-headed gherkin think the cops should give the bad guy so as to make sure it's not an airsoft gun or carved out of a bar of soap or whatever?)

Agreed. Pulling for our boy.

[Mr_White]

Hang in there, Erick!

[nalesq]

So, would be the answer be to only have the police act like firemen, and simply respond to an emergency after it has happened from the station? THAT may be the wave of the future in American policing. It may actually be the smart thing to do and allow those neighborhoods who seem to not want L/E around to have law enforcement respond with the fire department to clean up the mess, they will have a place to call in a phone report of robbery, rape, burglary, theft, or abuse for documentation purposes, and rich people will live like I do in a fortress like compound that is patrolled very actively and NOBODY is allowed in without specific permission from the person they are visiting.

I don't know if we REALLY want a level of policing that is wealth dependent, but it is the direction we are headed, with "Private Security Contractors" handling "patrol" operations in wealthy areas, and government supplied clean up in those places where they cannot provide their own patrol operations. Pretty sad, but that is what "Progressive" seems to encompass these days.

Something like this?:

http://vimeo.com/64778965

[Tamara]

Something like this?:

Or like this: Detroit's elite private security force (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn0GfpsYe-0).

[ToddG]

I find it interesting that this article makes ado about the deputy's (who is now named) training/background...

They can spin it however they want, but a guy with decades on the force, Iraq vet, FTO, FI, RM, many-times UOF expert... I mean, if there's one guy in your department you want making a shoot/no-shoot decision, it's this guy. As Tam said, if anything, identifying him as someone with this level of training and experience (not to mention being someone so many folks here know personally) essentially guarantees this was a legit shoot.

Is the USDOJ hyper-sensitive to black teens getting shot post-Zimmerman? Sure.

Are there probably people in big offices at DOJ who'd love another race-baiting, divide-widening media circus? Sure.

Are they going to get any traction here? No. You might just as well accuse Jesus of not understanding the Bible...

[BLR]

Or like this: Detroit's elite private security force (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn0GfpsYe-0).

Or the Pinkerton company.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Or the Pinkerton company.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

That's not as funny as V.I.P.E.R.S. Academy, though. ;)

[Dagga Boy]

From personal experience......the "problem" with being really good at picking up threats, fast through the evaluation process, and being competent with force tools, can be used against you. It was brought up in court (and essentially held up), that because I shot a suspect who was drawing a firearm on me from a classic IPSC draw and I was hit him a split second prior to his muzzle actually being fully leveled on me, I was "too fast", and thus, because he was shot just prior to the assault taking place with the deadly weapon, then it was only a "brandishing".
There is an expectation of "pure mediocrity" of LEO's in these cases. There is anger if LEO's miss, anger if they hit, anger if they don't go in fast enough (Columbine), anger if they are too fast. I note on many of the comments on this case that the "problem" was the officer was able to identify a threat, request back up and call for help, put his vehicle in park, disengage his seatbelt and exit, engage that threat with a verbal challenge, see that threat turn with what any person not in internet fantasy lane would think is a far superior weapon in a firing position, make a decision based on that observation of what was in his hands, use their firearm to end that threat with almost all hits, call for help, secure the subject and perform first aid on that subject till paramedics arrived, all in a very short period of time without panic, and all while under the added pressure of being wholly responsible for the safety of his trainee. Now he is a monster. If he had screamed drop the gun repetitively, missed all his shots (possibly hitting a bystander), etc...he would be a hero.........sad state of affairs and one that should now weigh on all officers. I also noted on many of the comments that Mil Vets are also now trigger happy and too dangerous to be on the streets. The reality....I doubt that the officer will ever be allowed to work again and will be replaced by a college student who lives at home and whose life experience is rooted in being very good with technology. Sonoma county citizens will get the policing they want.

[LittleLebowski]

Guys, the comments on this one are bad. As in spoil your good mood bad.

[Dagga Boy]

That's not as funny as V.I.P.E.R.S. Academy, though. ;)

The reality is I have worked for the "elite" of society. Our teams were as far from that stuff as you could imagine. The very wealthy are very good at taking care of themselves.

[ToddG]

It was brought up in court (and essentially held up), that because I shot a suspect who was drawing a firearm on me from a classic IPSC draw and I was hit him a split second prior to his muzzle actually being fully leveled on me, I was "too fast", and thus, because he was shot just prior to the assault taking place with the deadly weapon, then it was only a "brandishing".

Dude, the more of these stories I hear that shaped your thought process of UOF, the more I think your city/county counsel came out of a UFO. Seriously, how sucky does your attorney have to be if he cannot convince a jury that "drawing a gun" is a lethal threat regardless of whether the muzzle is perfectly parallel to the ground yet?

It's not even a "California thing." A student of mine shot a guy in NorCal a few years back who turned out to be unarmed. But because the BG had just threatened to shoot a cop and because the BG made a motion that everyone present thought was "going for a gun," it was ruled justified. I could be remembering wrong but I don't even think a lawsuit came about.

I'm beginning to think maybe someone just doesn't like you. :cool:

[Kobalt60]

Can we all remember that the kid was INNOCENT? He was, by all accounts, walking down the street with a toy gun and was shot dead by a police officer. It's an unmitigated tragedy for all involved. It's not the kid's fault he lives in a bad part of town. The kid's parents are going to sue the county, and probably win a bunch of money, but its not going to bring their son back. Even though it was a "good shoot," it's probably going to haunt the deputy for the rest of his life. If everything was above board on his end then he'll almost certainly come out clean. But the community isn't going to accept a proper finding as long as its just local assets doing the investigation. Give it to the Feds and they're more likely to accept it without a trial. I really hope they don't bring charges out of political pressure, that will get my dander up.

[Dagga Boy]

Dude, the more of these stories I hear that shaped your thought process of UOF, the more I think your city/county counsel came out of a UFO. Seriously, how sucky does your attorney have to be if he cannot convince a jury that "drawing a gun" is a lethal threat regardless of whether the muzzle is perfectly parallel to the ground yet?

It's not even a "California thing." A student of mine shot a guy in NorCal a few years back who turned out to be unarmed. But because the BG had just threatened to shoot a cop and because the BG made a motion that everyone present thought was "going for a gun," it was ruled justified. I could be remembering wrong but I don't even think a lawsuit came about.

I'm beginning to think maybe someone just doesn't like you. :cool:

Jury..........what is that? Everything is plea bargained. This came up during the Preliminary hearing, the former very liberal criminal defense lawyer Judge bought off on it. The exit line of question was "officer, my client didn't actually get to the point where his pistol was pointed directly at you?"-my response was "I did not think it was a good idea to let him get the muzzle fully raised as I did not want to be shot". The judge bought it. The public defender actually apologized to the prosecutor afterwards for the line of questioning as he said I was totally justified in shooting his "client", but he had to do his job. Illegal alien wanted on a felony drug warrant shooting a high capacity pistol in a bar and then drawing it on law enforcement got...............6 month's in county jail for "brandishing" on a plea bargain. Everything is handled that way except for the big public cases. The criminal justice system is currently a joke in California. The good folks will be the ones to pay, especially when the L/E folks are tired of being the "enemy" to both sides and simply go on blue welfare. Truthfully, the "smart cops" who often end up in management are VERY good at avoiding any interaction with serious bad guys and are very good at producing a great "numbers" by targeting regular folks and the not very dangerous law-breakers as opposed to predatory violent criminals.

[Tamara]

First gun store I worked in, there was an MP5 over the door to the back room.

"Cool!" I said to the owner, "Is that thing transferable?"

"Sure," he replied, "it's just a blue gun some guy painted black and painted in the selector markings with white and red."

Fast forward a few weeks and a regular customer, a cop, happened to ask me if the HK over the door was really full auto or just a semiauto SBR.

"Neither," I said, now feeling smug to be in on the joke, "it's just a blue gun some guy painted black and painted in the selector markings with white and red."

"Whoever it was was an idiot," the cop snorted, "that thing's gonna get somebody killed someday."

I think about that every time an incident like this is in the news.


Can we all remember that the kid was INNOCENT?

He was every bit as innocent* as the dude who climbs into the polar bear cage on a dare.

Don't point fake guns at people holding real ones, because they might not be in on the joke.


*I'm assuming he was innocent, at least. The media doesn't seem to be asking why he was running around pointing plastic guns at cops in the middle of a school day, rather than sitting in Algebra 1 like he should have been.

[Al T.]

I am absolutely 100% dead certain it was a good shoot now.


Agreed. Prayers out.

[ToddG]

This came up during the Preliminary hearing, the former very liberal criminal defense lawyer Judge bought off on it. The exit line of question was "officer, my client didn't actually get to the point where his pistol was pointed directly at you?"-my response was "I did not think it was a good idea to let him get the muzzle fully raised as I did not want to be shot". The judge bought it. The public defender actually apologized to the prosecutor afterwards for the line of questioning as he said I was totally justified in shooting his "client", but he had to do his job. Illegal alien wanted on a felony drug warrant shooting a high capacity pistol in a bar and then drawing it on law enforcement got...............6 month's in county jail for "brandishing" on a plea bargain.

I took your original comment to be from a UOF trial, not someone else's assault/brandishing trial.

So in the instance where you said you were judged "too fast" you were not, in fact, criminally prosecuted nor did you lose a civil case, correct?

While I completely understand your frustration over the outcome -- and I still think it's directly related to the time/place of your LE career -- there was no negative judgment of your use of deadly force. It was simply that you shot the guy for brandishing instead of AWIK (or whatever they call it in California). If anything, I think that would be a useful precedent: a judge finding that simple brandishing was clear justification for deadly force response.

[EricP]

Guys, the comments on this one are bad. As in spoil your good mood bad.

Should have listened.:mad:

[TCinVA]

Can we all remember that the kid was INNOCENT?

We have very different definitions of "innocent".

[Kobalt60]

We have very different definitions of "innocent".

Please elaborate. How does this kid sit outside of your definition of the word? I'm trying to refrain from making assumptions.

[TCinVA]

Please elaborate. How does this kid sit outside of your definition of the word? I'm trying to refrain from making assumptions.

Given that the officer involved here is a known quantity with by all accounts sound judgment, I doubt he made a terrible error in judgment when he responded to the actions of the young man with the fake gun.

Legally, everyone the police interact with is innocent as their case hasn't yet been adjudicated. But legally innocent isn't the same thing as harmless.

[Totem Polar]

*I'm assuming he was innocent, at least. The media doesn't seem to be asking why he was running around pointing plastic guns at cops in the middle of a school day, rather than sitting in Algebra 1 like he should have been.
^^^This, on that.

[Dagga Boy]

Sorry for the confusion Todd. I am sort of a anomaly in that I never used an attorney in any of my shootings, never prosecuted, and never sued....in Southern California. The norm is that the crook gets some plea bargained joke of a sentence and the officer sued for a bazillion dollars and some settlement is reached to make it go away.

[Kobalt60]

Given that the officer involved here is a known quantity with by all accounts sound judgment, I doubt he made a terrible error in judgment when he responded to the actions of the young man with the fake gun.

Legally, everyone the police interact with is innocent as their case hasn't yet been adjudicated. But legally innocent isn't the same thing as harmless.

By innocent, I mean he wasn't doing anything illegal before the cops showed up. Certainly not something that he deserved to be shot for.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the cop was in error. He only knew as much as he knew and had to make a life or death decision based on incomplete information without time to let the situation develop further. I'm positive that if he'd known the gun was fake that he wouldn't have shot.

There aren't any heroes or villains in this story. Just lots of victims.

[GardoneVT]

There aren't any heroes or villains in this story. Just lots of victims.

The real "victim" is the officer who's being pilloried for doing the right thing.

The teenager bleeding on the sidewalk next to a BB gun put himself in the morgue. I was just reading about an Ayoob Files case similar to this. A 14 year old in Alaska got his jewels blown off because , while wearing a ski mask and black clothing, he reached behind his back as the homeowner opened the door. Turned out, the kid was trying to talk to the man's daughter by knocking on her window at zero dark thirty , which scared her and sent the father into Condition Orange. In both cases, bad choices have bad consequences.

[Tamara]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the cop was in error. He only knew as much as he knew and had to make a life or death decision based on incomplete information...

If the kid had pointed that plastic AK at a store clerk and walked out with a soda pop, what would the charge have been under CA law, I wonder?

[Totem Polar]

If the kid had pointed that plastic AK at a store clerk and walked out with a soda pop, what would the charge have been under CA law, I wonder?

Depends if he intended to give the soda pop back.

No, really. I, for one, can't make this kitten up:


Calif. Appeals Court Tosses iPhone Theft Charge as 'Temporary Taking'
Link: http://gma.yahoo.com/calif-appeals-court-tosses-iphone-theft-charge-temporary-031225849--abc-news-money.html

TL/DR version:
Lover boy is texting his girl when psycho guy comes up and snatches his iphone and runs;
Lover chases and catches psycho who then starts to beat lover boy's head in.
Superior court covicts psycho guy of grand theft.
Appeals Court overturned and vacated sentence.

Why? - "The court found that in order to prove theft, the prosecution would had have to have shown that "[psycho] intended to deprive lover of [the phone] permanently or to remove it from lover boy's possession for so extended a period of time that the owner would be deprived of a major portion of the value or enjoyment of the property."

"It looks a lot like theft.
It involves a stranger taking violent possession of an owner's phone against the owner's will. It involves the owner being punched repeatedly in the head by the stranger. But, found the court, this isn't theft. It's "temporary taking"--something far more akin to a kid borrowing your car for a joyride."
(which, btw, is evidently also not theft.)

But I digress; carry on.

[ToddG]

California. Bleh.

[Dagga Boy]

California. Bleh.

Since moving to Texas and having a lot of interaction with both L/E and conservative Texans, I am seeing how jacked up California is........and I thought it was so jacked up that I left a state I lived in my entire life and loved. Since leaving I realize that it is worse than I thought.

[Tamara]

Pointing a plastic gun at somebody looks like it could fall under "Intimidation (http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/2004/title35/ar45/ch2.html)" in Indiana which, if I'm reading the circumstances right, could have been a class D felony.

[Savage Hands]

By innocent, I mean he wasn't doing anything illegal before the cops showed up. Certainly not something that he deserved to be shot for.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying the cop was in error. He only knew as much as he knew and had to make a life or death decision based on incomplete information without time to let the situation develop further. I'm positive that if he'd known the gun was fake that he wouldn't have shot.

There aren't any heroes or villains in this story. Just lots of victims.

He was doing plenty illegal in California where the incident occurred:
http://www.socalairsoft.com/about/ca-airsoft-law/

Airsoft and replica gun laws are tough in CA due to their use in crimes and other incidents of kids being shot over the same circumstances. It was a realistic replica from what I saw, Open Carry is illegal, the kid was going to muzzle/brandish the Officer's opposed to complying etc...

[Chuck Haggard]

The jerkoffs now wanting to use this incident to also bash veterans as a group has taken the level of commentary from retarded to completely revolting.

[LittleLebowski]

The jerkoffs now wanting to use this incident to also bash veterans as a group has taken the level of commentary from retarded to completely revolting.

I did warn you about reading the comments :D

Guys, don't read the comments unless you want to be angry. Dead serious.

[Dagga Boy]

He was doing plenty illegal in California where the incident occurred:
http://www.socalairsoft.com/about/ca-airsoft-law/

Airsoft and replica gun laws are tough in CA due to their use in crimes and other incidents of kids being shot over the same circumstances. It was a realistic replica from what I saw, Open Carry is illegal, the kid was going to muzzle/brandish the Officer's opposed to complying etc...

This is what is being missed by many. Replica and imitation firearms are used very regularly to commit robberies and other crimes. It is why they are regulated so heavily in California.

[Chuck Haggard]

No one appears to have thrown out the idea that perhaps the kid got himself shot on purpose.

Suicide by cop is rather common, and only detectable after the fact.

[Tamara]

Replica and imitation firearms are used very regularly to commit robberies and other crimes.

Wait, there are people who don't know that?


It is why they are regulated so heavily in California.

Plastic pellet or lead projectile, "regulate the object, not the criminal" seems to be the stock solution. ;)

[ToddG]

The jerkoffs now wanting to use this incident to also bash veterans as a group has taken the level of commentary from retarded to completely revolting.

As much as I hate to say this out loud: that's probably a good thing. Any time a group turns anti-veteran it robs a lot of credibility and raises the ire of many folks who might otherwise have been tricked into believing the idiocy.

[Tamara]

As much as I hate to say this out loud: that's probably a good thing. Any time a group turns anti-veteran it robs a lot of credibility and raises the ire of many folks who might otherwise have been tricked into believing the idiocy.

Ehhh... It disturbs me that vets (and for some reason not GWOT vets in general, but "Iraq vets" specifically,) are being painted by the media as the New And Improved 21st Century Version of the "crazy Vietnam vet" meme of my adolescent years.

[PPGMD]

As much as I hate to say this out loud: that's probably a good thing. Any time a group turns anti-veteran it robs a lot of credibility and raises the ire of many folks who might otherwise have been tricked into believing the idiocy.

I've said it before, sometimes people won't give a damn if it is a normal citizen. But if it is a vet, and people play that up suddenly people care.

[GardoneVT]

I've said it before, sometimes people won't give a damn if it is a normal citizen. But if it is a vet, and people play that up suddenly people care.

Sometimes.

Zimmermann found out the hard way that you don't need to be a vet or a cop to be villified for defending yourself.

[Tamara]

Incidentally, I hope everyone is noting that in the linked articles, Erick's posts at TFL are being data-mined for quotes that sound bad to soccer moms, especially when taken out of context.

[Chuck Haggard]

Incidentally, I hope everyone is noting that in the linked articles, Erick's posts at TFL are being data-mined for quotes that sound bad to soccer moms, especially when taken out of context.

Makes a guy regret ever getting on the internets, ever.

[Tamara]

Makes a guy regret ever getting on the internets, ever.

This is just part of our brave new world that we still haven't fully grokked.

Someone (and I wish I could remember who, but it was probably my genius friend "staghounds (http://staghounds.blogspot.com/)") noted that, in not very many years' time, potential employers will find it odd and suspicious if you don't have drunken college pics on your FaceSpace page like everybody else from this generation. "What is the applicant trying to hide?" they'll wonder.

The internet is making it so that everybody's casual bull sessions are recorded for posterity, and society hasn't wholly adjusted to it yet, but we will.

For me? It's just too much work to go bulk searching 100k+ posts strewn across half the internet for the last ~15 years and remove all General Mattis quotes. ;)

[Totem Polar]

+1 to tpd223 and Tam's last posts. I should have listened to the warnings about reading the article comments. :mad:

And, I'm afraid of Internet forums. Fortunately, I always have been.
:cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

I guess it cuts both ways. I once got cold called and hired as an expert witness due to being Googled up and the folks in question had read some of my articles.

[DocGKR]

Happens to me quite a bit....

[Chuck Haggard]

Happens to me quite a bit....

Yeah, but you've been warned................

[fuse]

Ehhh... It disturbs me that vets (and for some reason not GWOT vets in general, but "Iraq vets" specifically,) are being painted by the media as the New And Improved 21st Century Version of the "crazy Vietnam vet" meme of my adolescent years.

Liberals no likey Iraq. Liberals likey Afghanistan, because daddy said it's the good war.

[Kyle Reese]

Liberals no likey Iraq. Liberals likey Afghanistan, because daddy said it's the good war.

I must have missed seeing all of these brave liberals when I was in Afghanistan.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

I must have missed seeing all of these brave liberals when I was in Afghanistan.


Flawless victory.

[HCM]

I see this as more of a political decision. The cop is clearly going to be exonerated, but if his home department gives him the "by" the FSA will think bad thoughts. Better allow the FBI to clear the cop and then we can all return to business.

I think Peaceful John is spot on with this being a political decision. That said, in my experience, if an outside agency must review the shooting, even if only avoid the appearance of his agency giving him a "pass", Deputy Gelhaus chance of receiving a fair and obvective review from the FBi is far greater than from a CA state agency such as the CA DOJ.

[LittleLebowski]

Wonder if the FBI investigated this shooting (http://www.kmov.com/news/mobile/Off-duty-St-Louis-sheriffs-deputy-died-from-shots-fired-by-St-Louis-Police-officer-115837784.html)?

[TCinVA]

I guess it cuts both ways. I once got cold called and hired as an expert witness due to being Googled up and the folks in question had read some of my articles.

Some lawyer from Guam wanted me to come testify as an expert witness on the M9 after his client apparently did something naughty with it. The interweb is a strange place.

[LtDave]

I think Peaceful John is spot on with this being a political decision. That said, in my experience, if an outside agency must review the shooting, even if only avoid the appearance of his agency giving him a "pass", Deputy Gelhaus chance of receiving a fair and obvective review from the FBi is far greater than from a CA state agency such as the CA DOJ.

Interesting bit of FBI trivia...If you were a cop before becoming an FBI agent, you will not be assigned as the case agent in any civil rights case involving law enforcement.

[HCM]

Interesting bit of FBI trivia...If you were a cop before becoming an FBI agent, you will not be assigned as the case agent in any civil rights case involving law enforcement.

Not surprising. The FBI has it's issues but having worked 7 of my 17 years LE in CA, if push came to shove, I would still rather have the FBI review my actions than a CA state agency. I worked with some great CA DOJ investigators over the years but in my experience, they are, as an agency, more politically driven than most.

[jlw]

Does CA law require external investigation on an OIS?

[HCM]

Does CA law require external investigation on an OIS?

No. Most agencies do their own. Any external investigation in this case would be politically driven.

[Dagga Boy]

Does CA law require external investigation on an OIS?

We did all of our own, and were very good at them.

[jlw]

GA law requires that the GBI be called on any in-custody death, but there is no such requirement on an OIS although many mistakenly believe that there is.

We've had one OIS since I have been with the agency. I did an internal review of policy and the overall agency action. We asked another SO to do an external review and presentation to the DA. The DA got mad that the GBI wasn't called. We reminded him that he has the authority to call them under state law if he so chose.

The deputy involved in the shooting was actually on his way to an off duty gig and responded to the call. He worked the next day.

[LtDave]

We did all of our own, and were very good at them.

I think this varies quite a bit, agency to agency. At my former SoCal PD, we would have LASD Homicide do the investigation of an OIS with injuries or a fatality. We would also have CHP investigate any officer involved traffic accidents with serious injuries, fatality or property damage. More a question of staffing and public perception of an impartial investigation than the ability of our guys to do the work. In LA County, the DA is also going to show up and conduct their own investigation.

[KeeFus]

The vast majority of OIS here are investigated by the SBI. Recently Char-Mech had an OIS and they (Char-Mech PD ) investigated it...and they charged the LEO within 24 hours of the shooting. I don't know the details but that seems a bit fast to me.

[LittleLebowski]

The vast majority of OIS here are investigated by the SBI. Recently Char-Mech had an OIS and they (Char-Mech PD ) investigated it...and they charged the LEO within 24 hours of the shooting. I don't know the details but that seems a bit fast to me.

I wasn't there but I'd bet the other LE that were witnesses to the shooting had a lot to do with that.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/09/16/4318461/mother-of-man-killed-by-cmpd-officer.html#.UnDqC_ma5P0

[UNM1136]

Can we all remember that the kid was INNOCENT? He was, by all accounts, walking down the street with a toy gun and was shot dead by a police officer. It's an unmitigated tragedy for all involved. It's not the kid's fault he lives in a bad part of town. The kid's parents are going to sue the county, and probably win a bunch of money, but its not going to bring their son back. Even though it was a "good shoot," it's probably going to haunt the deputy for the rest of his life. If everything was above board on his end then he'll almost certainly come out clean. But the community isn't going to accept a proper finding as long as its just local assets doing the investigation. Give it to the Feds and they're more likely to accept it without a trial. I really hope they don't bring charges out of political pressure, that will get my dander up.

Couple of thoughts here. Is the kid innocent? YES! No trier of fact/law has convicted him of a crime... There is some discussion that there may have been a crime committed at the time, (replica firearm in the state of California, in a public place, the replica may have been modified to remove the telltales required by law), but the big thing here is to remember that it could have been behavior, not mindset, intent, or feelings that resulted in this shooting.

In the police academy it was pounded into my head that I was in control of every situation I was in. Simple, honest analysis with some street time showed me how false that assertion is. By definition, our role is largely reactive. It is unethical and illegal to drive up to a scene and punch somebody in the head just to exercise control. Instead we have to be observant, and respond to the behaviors of the people we are interacting with. They choose their behavior, we choose a counter behavior, in order to reduce the threat to ourselves and the public. It can be as simple as taking a step to your right or left side to block a potential escape route while interviewing someone, or it could be engaging someone with lethal force. Anyone who knows me knows that while in uniform I don't run up to scenes, but I do run after fleeing subjects. I don't thump or tase compliant, non violent suspects, but I do subdue, stabilize and take into custody folks whose behavior indicates a need for that level of response.

Based on the accounts I have read, the kid turned in such a way as to bring the muzzle of a weapon (the fact it was a toy could not be determined until after the fact) towards two deputies. That fills the legal criteria (closing distance with a lethal force) for the application of lethal force. His intentions are likely 100% innocent. He was out to play with his toy. His actions were what he deputy had a split second to react to. You are right that the more transparent the investigations, and the fewer potential conflicts of interest involved, easier it will be for many to accept the outcome of the investigation. It appears the agencies involved are making the effort to reduce the appearance of conflicts of interest, explain the issues, and to provide a transparent investigation.

But the biggest point is that the deputy is innocent, too. No trier of fact/law has found him guilty of a crime. The investigation needs to play itself out, and unless and until the deputy is convicted, he deserves the same protections to his rights as everyone wants to protect for the victim. You are also correct that there will be no winners here, just varying degrees of losers.

We are looking at this from the comfort of our keyboards, and we all have our biases when we look at it. I made the mistake of reading the comments on some of those news stories. I have been a cop for almost 15 years, and our area has had a major OIS incident in the last week. I have seen the news stories, read the papers, and spoken to officers belonging to the agencies involved within 24 hours after the event. I have heard so much rumor and fractured assembly of the facts that I have begun to wonder just who knows what went on. I have now spoken to people who were actually involved, at the scenes, medical professionals caring for the victims, and whatnot, and now have a much more complete view of a what went on. I have been able to dispel rumors circulating about who got hurt how, and how bad. My co-workers come in with the latest rumors from the investigations and usually within a couple of hours I am able to correct the grossly inaccurate rumors, and present more complete, accurate, verifiable facts. I don't know all that happened, but the facts I have dug up are much less spectacular.

pat

[Tamara]

Couple of thoughts here...

Excellent, excellent post.

I'm sorry, but we can't be having this sort of thing on the internet, or rational thought might break out and then where would we be?

[ToddG]

Awesome post, Pat.

[pax]

UNM1136,

Good post. Thanks for putting that out there.

For non-LEOs who would like to understand more about LE uses of force, you can't do better than to pick up a copy of Rory Miller's excellent book Force Decisions (http://www.amazon.com/Force-Decisions-Understanding-Determine-Appropriate/dp/1594392439). It's an excellent book that provides a lot of very thought provoking points.

pax

[Chuck Haggard]

And sometimes when a "kid" has an AK it's not harmless;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikDsWtNQzcg

[Totem Polar]

I've been a bit busy the past few days, so I 'm a little late to this discussion. Also, I haven't read the entire thread. I just wanted to say that sometimes when a guy points an AK at a cop he intends to shoot him, steal his unit, and then drive across town and shoot your wife. I wish Erick had been working in ABQ last Saturday.

I just want to say that my thoughts and prayers are with you.

[BLR]

Happens to me quite a bit....

Yep. Awesome advertising.

Never write anything you don't want to read to a judge and jury completely out of context at your trial.



Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

Yep. Awesome advertising.

Never write anything you don't want to read to a judge and jury completely out of context at your trial.



This is where one's choice of trainer can be a VERY big deal.

Locally we have several guys pushing a dude as the ultimate trainer who has a history of fraud, and some really questionable internet writings. When I point that out they tell me if they need an expert they'll just hire Mas Ayoob.

Good luck on that strategy.

[jlw]

This is where one's choice of trainer can be a VERY big deal.

Locally we have several guys pushing a dude as the ultimate trainer who has a history of fraud, and some really questionable internet writings. When I point that out they tell me if they need an expert they'll just hire Mas Ayoob.

Good luck on that strategy.

I've had very similar conversations with shooting buddies about having certain folks on their training resumes.

[Tamara]

This is where one's choice of trainer can be a VERY big deal.

Locally we have several guys pushing a dude as the ultimate trainer who has a history of fraud, and some really questionable internet writings. When I point that out they tell me if they need an expert they'll just hire Mas Ayoob.

Good luck on that strategy.

You know, it'd be one thing if hypothetical Controversial Trainer Dude had some secret, proprietary technique that would keep you alive when nothing else would; then I could see rolling the dice and taking your chances with having them show up in some future hypothetical witness stand.

But with such a large industry and so many people teaching good stuff? There's just no need to not take stuff like that into consideration when trainer shopping.

[Chuck Haggard]

Exactly.

[GJM]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20131031/articles/131039850?title=FBI-reportedly-scales-back-Lopez-killing-inquiry

FBI scaling back investigation.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20131031/articles/131039850?title=FBI-reportedly-scales-back-Lopez-killing-inquiry

FBI scaling back investigation.

Excellent.

[BLR]

I still don't understand what federal crime was potentially committed.

[Tamara]

Civil rights violations.

[Dagga Boy]

I couldn't help myself.............this is one of the comments:


"Robert James · Top Commenter
the FBI should be investigated for it's action's in Sonoma County and it's close ties with the Sheriff's Dept., the protection it afforded those in the Court's and the people who were Murders who were Protected by them who committed Criminal act's while here in Sonoma County under their Protection. We need the Justice Dept. in this Case."


So...........do you think he is aware that the FBI is from the Justice Dept.? So according to the genius, the Justice Department should investigate the Justice Dept. because the Justice Dept. is somehow missing the criteria needed for the Justice Dept. to even be involved.....:confused:. Somebody call the Justice Dept., because this is an outrage;).

[BaiHu]

I could barely get past "close ties with the..." Before my moron-meter nearly assploded.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

So...........do you think he is aware that the FBI is from the Justice Dept.? So according to the genius, the Justice Department should investigate the Justice Dept. because the Justice Dept. is somehow missing the criteria needed for the Justice Dept. to even be involved.....:confused:. Somebody call the Justice Dept., because this is an outrage;).

Exactly. This is, in a nutshell, why we can't have nice things. ;)

[BLR]

Civil rights violations.

What civil right/rights?

[jlw]

What civil right/rights?

18 USC 241
18 USC 242
42 USC 1983

so on and so forth

[BLR]

Seems a bit of a stretch to me, in this case.

[Tamara]

Seems a bit of a stretch to me, in this case.

Me too. Citizens are complaining, however, and agents are investigating. So far, I don't see any cause to get my knickers in a preemptive twist; this looks pretty pro forma.

[SeriousStudent]

This "reduced involvement" hopefully looks to be good news for the Deputy, then. I'm glad to hear it.

[jlw]

Seems a bit of a stretch to me, in this case.

I wasn't asserting that any violations had occurred; merely what the federal jurisdiction in such cases is.

[HCM]

Me too. Citizens are complaining, however, and agents are investigating. So far, I don't see any cause to get my knickers in a preemptive twist; this looks pretty pro forma.

This^^^^

[Shellback]

Interesting article (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/calif-deputy-shot-kid-fake-gun-firearms-trainer-article-1.1500144) on the officer involved in the shooting, Deputy Erick Gelhaus.

In a 2006 post on the Firing Line Forum, an online network for firearms enthusiasts, Gelhaus discussed the use of force that might be appropriate when someone brandishes a BB gun.

"It's going to come down to YOUR ability to articulate to law enforcement and very likely the Court that you were in fear of death or serious bodily injury," he wrote. "I think we keep coming back to this, articulation — your ability to explain why — will be quite significant."

[LittleLebowski]

Interesting article (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/calif-deputy-shot-kid-fake-gun-firearms-trainer-article-1.1500144) on the officer involved in the shooting, Deputy Erick Gelhaus.

I don't see what's wrong with what he said.

[Shellback]

I don't see what's wrong with what he said.

Nothing wrong with it. I just thought it was interesting that they were digging up posts from 2006 and quoting him.

[LHS]

Interesting article (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/calif-deputy-shot-kid-fake-gun-firearms-trainer-article-1.1500144) on the officer involved in the shooting, Deputy Erick Gelhaus.

Against my better judgement, I read some of the comments. I'm going to need a scrip for blood pressure medicine now.

[LittleLebowski]

Don't read the comments. I'm dead serious.

[TR675]

Reading the comments has some value.

If, god forbid, you ever get tried for a good shooting gone bad, people like that are going to be on your jury panel and maybe your jury.

[Duces Tecum]

Can we all remember that the kid was INNOCENT?

So ... let me see if I've got this right ... if the kid was innocent, then the officer is automatically guilty? Will that be our standard going forward, at least until the next revision?

It is legal for a kid to be in public with a toy gun, certainly, but in today's environment prudence requires an associated obligation. The obligation is that the owner or the owner's parents cause the object be clearly identifiable from an appropriate distance as a toy.

But in this case the toy gun was a replica purchased because of it's nearly indistinguishable likeness to a real gun. To make the similarity even more complete the legally required orange muzzle identifier was apparently removed, thus purposefully further obscuring it's benign character.

There are three acts that should be weighed before assigning responsibility for that boy's death. First, the boy was permitted to acquire the specific toy that most nearly mirrors a functional weapon; secondly, the parents did not respect the state law regarding orange muzzle identifiers remaining at all times affixed, and thirdly they then allowed that child to carry in public an object purchased and then further modified to resemble a live firearm. Is it any wonder that these acts would alarm a reasonable observer? Have we so far forgotten Sandy Hook Elementary School, among others?

Then, as the police approached, the kid first turned around with the replica firearm in his hands and secondly raised the muzzle towards a firing position.

In my mind, and others may disagree, there were at least five opportunities for the boy's parents (3) or the boy himself (2) to have averted this tragedy. I don't put too much responsibility on the boy due to his (normal) lack of mature judgement, but I do believe irresponsible parenting makes his father and mother fully culpable.

The police should be exhonerated.

I would welcome unemotional opposing responses.

[Tamara]

Nothing wrong with it. I just thought it was interesting that they were digging up posts from 2006 and quoting him.

Really (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10066-Say-what-FBI-to-investigate-Santa-Rosa-shooting&p=172306&viewfull=1#post172306)? ;)

[Shellback]

Really (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10066-Say-what-FBI-to-investigate-Santa-Rosa-shooting&p=172306&viewfull=1#post172306)? ;)

Thmarty pants!

[Tamara]

Thmarty pants!

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, though, that's a point that can't get repeated enough. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

So ... let me see if I've got this right ... if the kid was innocent, then the officer is automatically guilty? Will that be our standard going forward, at least until the next revision?

It is legal for a kid to be in public with a toy gun, certainly, but in today's environment prudence requires an associated obligation. The obligation is that the owner or the owner's parents cause the object be clearly identifiable from an appropriate distance as a toy.

But in this case the toy gun was a replica purchased because of it's nearly indistinguishable likeness to a real gun. To make the similarity even more complete the legally required orange muzzle identifier was apparently removed, thus purposefully further obscuring it's benign character.

There are three acts that should be weighed before assigning responsibility for that boy's death. First, the boy was permitted to acquire the specific toy that most nearly mirrors a functional weapon; secondly, the parents did not respect the state law regarding orange muzzle identifiers remaining at all times affixed, and thirdly they then allowed that child to carry in public an object purchased and then further modified to resemble a live firearm. Is it any wonder that these acts would alarm a reasonable observer? Have we so far forgotten Sandy Hook Elementary School, among others?

Then, as the police approached, the kid first turned around with the replica firearm in his hands and secondly raised the muzzle towards a firing position.

In my mind, and others may disagree, there were at least five opportunities for the boy's parents (3) or the boy himself (2) to have averted this tragedy. I don't put too much responsibility on the boy due to his (normal) lack of mature judgement, but I do believe irresponsible parenting makes his father and mother fully culpable.

The police should be exhonerated.

I would welcome unemotional opposing responses.

My understanding is that he was supposed to be in school at the time of the incident, so that is another data point on opportunities to have avoided this.

[HCM]

Another datapoint on the potential threat posed by a 14 year old:

http://www.kens5.com/news/Report-Teen-cartel-killer-headed-to-San-Antonio-233527011.html

Report: Teen drug cartel killer freed from Mexican prison, headed to San Antonio

Edgar Jimenez Lugo aka 'El Ponchis', alleged member of the South Pacific drug cartel, in Cuernavaca, Morelos State, Mexico, Mexican authorities arrested the 14-year-old boy accused of serving as a drug cartel hitman. In 2011, at age 14, Jimenez confessed to killing four people whose beheaded bodies were found suspended from a bridge.

[John Hearne]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140107/articles/140109736#page=0

Highlights include:
Part of the lawsuit also accuses Gelhaus of having “racist and extremist tendencies and beliefs,” citing his association with a shooting academy whose founder it said had bigoted views.

The academy is not named. Jon Melrod, an organizer with a local group formed to protest Lopez's death, said it was the Arizona-based Gunsite Academy.

The lawsuit said Gelhaus blogged about his admiration for the founder, listed on the website as Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper. Gelhaus, a department firearms instructor, encouraged other deputies to attend, the lawsuit said.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140107/articles/140109736#page=0

Highlights include:
Part of the lawsuit also accuses Gelhaus of having “racist and extremist tendencies and beliefs,” citing his association with a shooting academy whose founder it said had bigoted views.

The academy is not named. Jon Melrod, an organizer with a local group formed to protest Lopez's death, said it was the Arizona-based Gunsite Academy.

The lawsuit said Gelhaus blogged about his admiration for the founder, listed on the website as Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper. Gelhaus, a department firearms instructor, encouraged other deputies to attend, the lawsuit said.

That.....damages my calm.

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140107/articles/140109736#page=0

Highlights include:
Part of the lawsuit also accuses Gelhaus of having “racist and extremist tendencies and beliefs,” citing his association with a shooting academy whose founder it said had bigoted views.

The academy is not named. Jon Melrod, an organizer with a local group formed to protest Lopez's death, said it was the Arizona-based Gunsite Academy.

The lawsuit said Gelhaus blogged about his admiration for the founder, listed on the website as Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper. Gelhaus, a department firearms instructor, encouraged other deputies to attend, the lawsuit said.

A quick glance at Jonathan Melrod's FB page shows that he's a big fan of celebrating Black Panther events. You can't make this stuff up.

[ToddG]

The lawsuit said Gelhaus blogged about his admiration for the founder, listed on the website as Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper. Gelhaus, a department firearms instructor, encouraged other deputies to attend, the lawsuit said.

Beyond ridiculous. But hey, everyone plays the race card when Obama's Justice Department gets involved.

Even if they could prove the founder of the school was a bigot, that doesn't go nearly far enough to show that the defendant himself held any such views. I've taken a class from an instructor who (I later learned) is quite the anti-Semite. I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean I hate the Jews.

[GJM]

1) Jeff Cooper was not what you would call a "Japanophile," which isn't all that surprising when you consider he was involved in a war where certain people tried to kill you. I never knew him to be otherwise bigoted, except towards crunchentickers, Glocks and AR-15's.

2) I think all this peripheral stuff, like instructing at Gunsite, and posting, god forbid, on internet forums, is really a good sign for Eric. If they had a case, you would have heard about it. My assumption is they don't have a case, so they are trying to litigate anything BUT the facts of the shooting.

[DocGKR]

"My assumption is they don't have a case, so they are trying to litigate anything BUT the facts of the shooting."

This.

I have NEVER noted Deputy Gelhaus "espousing questionable tactics"; in fact the exact opposite is true.

Likewise I have NEVER noted Deputy Gelhaus to articulate "extremist views", that is unless serving in difficult jobs in a professional and skilled fashion is now considered "extremist".

[Chuck Whitlock]

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20140107/articles/140109736#page=0

Highlights include:
Part of the lawsuit also accuses Gelhaus of having “racist and extremist tendencies and beliefs,” citing his association with a shooting academy whose founder it said had bigoted views.

The academy is not named. Jon Melrod, an organizer with a local group formed to protest Lopez's death, said it was the Arizona-based Gunsite Academy.

The lawsuit said Gelhaus blogged about his admiration for the founder, listed on the website as Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper. Gelhaus, a department firearms instructor, encouraged other deputies to attend, the lawsuit said.

Having only once before read a lawsuit (appellate finding, IIRC) filed against a peace officer for wrongful death, a lot of this sounds eerily familiar. I am guessing that it is basically Wrongful Death Civil Suit #101.

[Tamara]

It's the attack of the rabbit people.

[Don Gwinn]

I must lead a sheltered life. I saw mentions of this incident in the news, but I lost track of it and never realized that Erick was involved. Then I sat down and read the whole thread through over a day or so. Now I'm a little bit stunned. And I think I'm going to take the oft-repeated advice about the comment sections on those articles, curious though I am.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD