Lives of Mentally Ill, Police Collide

[JFK]

I read an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal this morning and I wanted to get the input of our friends on the job.

Here is the link although I believe it is behind a pay wall.

http://on.wsj.com/1aejgiA

There is so many topics to discuss in this article, and so many "ifs" it was hard for me to narrow down a discussion topic. The article is about Law-enforcemnt professinals and mental health advocates believe deadly clashes between the ill and police are on the rise. Here are some excerpts:


Regular police training teaches officers at a crime scene to employ a force continuum, which starts with the fact of the officer's presence and, depending on how the subject respons, moves through verbal commands and hand controls and then to the use of a nonlethal device like a baton or Taser... ...As soon as the subject has a weapon though options to deal with the situation rapidly decrease... ...


About half the nation's population lives in places where officers don't receive training in dealing with the mentally ill... ... nearly a fifth of the adult population, experienced mental illness in the previous year, ranging from anxiety to extreme schizophrenia. That suggest an officer, on any given cal, is reasonably likely to encounter a mentally ill person.

The article then goes on to depict a situation where an officer had to shoot a mentally ill person with a knife.


..."I remember praying the whole night saying, 'God, don't let him die,'" the officer said. He did die though, setting off a civil lawsuit, a year of limited duty, an investigation and emotional turmoil. The Suffolk County prosecutor ruled the shooting was justified and the civil case was decided in the officer's favor. Still, if faced with the same scenario, he said, "I'd hesitate before I'd ever do it again."

So what do the LEO's think of this. Is training lacking like they say? How as a LEO and not a psychologist how are you expected to diagnose and react? Does this present moral, ethical, or personal dilemmas? There also seemed a tone in this article that put the burden on the officer to not use force in a deadly situation if the person is mentally ill. Is the true? How do you know, until it is too late?

Discuss

[jlw]

First, I reject wholeheartedly the traditional notion in the continuum that an officer's presence is a use of force.

Second, the false idea often put forth by such continuum is that they must be progressed through.

We teach use of force "options", and the personnel should choose the requisite "option" to handle a given situation.

With all of that out of the way, the number one item that result in massive criminal justice spending and case loads would be to have a functional mental health system. Mental health care would also positively influence substance abuse issues as the substance abuse is often a self treatment for mental health issues, and both are leading contributors in many criminal acts.

I'll also admit the the "blue" solution is often to slap cuffs on a mental issue, drop it off at the jail, and drive way thus solving the immediate "blue" problem. Folks that spend any time around jails see the rest of it.

I've fought, as I am sure others here have, many a person with a mental issue who was having an episode that once said person received proper care was harmless. Unfortunately, I have also dealt with one such person who got passed around the system doing six months here and six months there for criminal trespass and the like until he hacked up an officer with a butcher knife. His mother had been to many of his previous hearings begging for the state to put him somewhere to deal with his mental issues. It's been over five years and the criminal trial still hasn't begun because they can't determine whether or not he is competent to stand trial.

[ToddG]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Lethal threats need to be assessed and addressed given the totality of the situation AT THE MOMENT. Holding police or anyone else to a different standard is ridiculous. Expecting cops to make split second assessments of someone's mental health specifics is equally ridiculous. Career head shrinkers can't do that.

Not every lethal threat is a monstrous evil, but not every tragedy is unjustified. As a society we can feel bad when something bad happens but it doesn't always necessarily mean there is someone to blame.

[rsa-otc]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Lethal threats need to be assessed and addressed given the totality of the situation AT THE MOMENT. Holding police or anyone else to a different standard is ridiculous. Expecting cops to make split second assessments of someone's mental health specifics is equally ridiculous. Career head shrinkers can't do that.
Not every lethal threat is a monstrous evil, but not every tragedy is unjustified. As a society we can feel bad when something bad happens but it doesn't always necessarily mean there is someone to blame.

EXACTLY

[MDS]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Lethal threats need to be assessed and addressed given the totality of the situation AT THE MOMENT. Holding police or anyone else to a different standard is ridiculous. Expecting cops to make split second assessments of someone's mental health specifics is equally ridiculous. Career head shrinkers can't do that.

Not every lethal threat is a monstrous evil, but not every tragedy is unjustified. As a society we can feel bad when something bad happens but it doesn't always necessarily mean there is someone to blame.

What's tough for a lot of people to swallow is that even when every system is working perfectly, you're still going to get plenty of tragic outcomes that coulda/woulda/shoulda been avoided "if only" some small detail had been different. When considering things like the intersection of violent crime, mental health, and the justice system, we need to look at it from the perspective of the totality of those systems, instead of simply "making sure this sort of thing never happens again." Many (most) folks find it easier to do something - even if it's wrong, half-assed, and makes things worse - than learn to live gracefully with the fact that nothing's perfect. Ideally, we'd be able to routinely come together as a society and make real, positive, incremental improvements to our social machinery... but then again, ideally I'd have a flying ranch with herds of rainbow unicorns and outhouses made of solid gold...

[Chuck Haggard]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

[cclaxton]

One thing the Shoot/No-Shoot class at the NRA taught me is, even as a concealed carrier, I should have a less-lethal option available. For me that is Mace/Pepper Spray. But LE's have even more latitude, such as Tasers, Stronger Mace/Pepper, etc.

While I completely empathize with LE's on the street, I also think *too many* LE's react as though there is only one lethal alternative. I am not saying they should be "liable" for not using a less-lethal option, but I do see it as an obligation when there is time to react and assess. When there is no time, then you do what you have to.

I am not trying to second-guess anyone here or there. I am just saying why bother carrying less-lethal options if you are not trained to react and use them automatically in the same way you are trained to use a firearm?

CC

[Tamara]

I don't care that the guy wouldn't be a threat to others "if he was on his meds" and more than I'd care "if he didn't have a gun."

Yeah, I'm kinda at a loss how it's supposed to sting less if I get shot or stabbed by somebody because they were genuinely crazy as opposed to just because they were a run-of-the-mill dirtbag?

"Oh, you're off your meds? I'm sorry, I'll holster up. Slash away, bro."

[MDS]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

As someone outside those fields, I can believe that it's much more broken than it seems to be to me. What I'm not seeing is any real-world discussion about making it better. Are there viable efforts out there that aren't really visible to us cake-eaters?

[rsa-otc]

NJ just over the last couple of years authorized tazers for a limited number of officers. Only so many per active officers per shift etc. Really stupid guidelines IMHO. If I'm going to need it I going to need it now and can't wait for the one guy on shift that has one to show up.

We have seen here in the state where mentally ill subjects have ignored the OC spray and continued the fight even when the officers are being effected by it. In one case in our local town the subject was OCed in a bathroom and still was uncontrollable. The offices started to be overcome by the OC and backed out. The subject ended up dying and the department was sued. I didn't hear what the outcome of the suite was.

As Todd pointed out the person my be Mild Mannered Clark Kent on his meds or not in an episode, but off their meds or during an episode they become Superman, and if in that case the subject becomes a lethal threat then lethal means may be needed to handle it. The fact that they are mentally ill doesn't give them a free pass. And during that moment in time the officer doesn't have time to figure out how to bring then down.

It's tragic but it's life. Life isn't always perfect or picturesque. Some times it's just plain ugly and painful and that's no ones fault.

[Odin Bravo One]

One thing the Shoot/No-Shoot class at the NRA taught me is, even as a concealed carrier, I should have a less-lethal option available. For me that is Mace/Pepper Spray. But LE's have even more latitude, such as Tasers, Stronger Mace/Pepper, etc.

While I completely empathize with LE's on the street, I also think *too many* LE's react as though there is only one lethal alternative. I am not saying they should be "liable" for not using a less-lethal option, but I do see it as an obligation when there is time to react and assess. When there is no time, then you do what you have to.

I am not trying to second-guess anyone here or there. I am just saying why bother carrying less-lethal options if you are not trained to react and use them automatically in the same way you are trained to use a firearm?

CC

I don't carry a less lethal option.

Dude is either a lethal threat, or he/she is not. Crazy or not is completely irrelevant. If not a lethal threat...I have many other options. Like ummmm..........leave.

[rsa-otc]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

My brother was NJ's 2012 Mental Health Practitioner of the year, we talk all the time about this. It has gotten worse under the ACA. He spends much of his time making sure the forms are correctly filled out taking away from his time with his patients. If he doesn't do that the private 3rd party audit company finds a i not dotted or t not crossed there is massive fines which there is no means to object to or fight the fines legitimacy. Guess how the private 3rd party audit company gets paid, by the fines they collect of course. All in the name of stopping the fraud that the ACA is supposed to minimize thus saving the tax payer money.

[rsa-otc]

I don't carry a less lethal option.

Dude is either a lethal threat, or he/she is not. Crazy or not is completely irrelevant. If not a lethal threat...I have many other options. Like ummmm..........leave.

Bullseye. Dead on target dude could not agree more.

[jlw]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

Preach on!!

[Tamara]

Has anyone else here read My Brother Ron (http://www.amazon.com/My-Brother-Ron-Personal-Deinstitutionalization-ebook/dp/B008E0LRQE)?

[JFK]

What I find interesting about this also is it seems that when dealing with the ill LEOs are fighting two fronts. The immediate threat, and the aftermath of public opinion. I would really like to hear more thoughts on that.

Not only are you a target for cuckoo rage, or suicide by cop. After one also must deal with different flavors of mental like this popular opinion near the end of the article.


The grand jury asked questions like those raised by community members and news media. Why did the officer fire so many shots? (by the way it was 4 shots) Why didn't he use a Taser? Someone asked why he didn't shoot the knife out of Mr. Lane's hand.

The last one is a gem.

[Chuck Haggard]

On top of the many and serious issues with the mental health system are the number of dopers who wreck themselves, often permanently, doing various drugs.

Our drug induced excited delirium incidents have gone up dramatically since K2 and "bath salts" hit the scene, as if coke and meth weren't enough.

I had no idea how popular my ExD class was going to be at the Tac Conference, room was filled. I guess the Miami face eating zombie incident made that sort of thing a worry for average folks.


What is being done? Memphis set the example with the CIT, Crisis Intervention Team, concept. This is taking off in LE circles. We teach at least two classes a year at my job, and I farm out my ExD class several more times per year on demand.

Cops should not have to be the profession that is pushing the mental health first aid idea, but that's how it's working out.

[Chuck Haggard]

NJ just over the last couple of years authorized tazers for a limited number of officers. Only so many per active officers per shift etc. Really stupid guidelines IMHO. If I'm going to need it I going to need it now and can't wait for the one guy on shift that has one to show up.

We have seen here in the state where mentally ill subjects have ignored the OC spray and continued the fight even when the officers are being effected by it. In one case in our local town the subject was OCed in a bathroom and still was uncontrollable. The offices started to be overcome by the OC and backed out. The subject ended up dying and the department was sued. I didn't hear what the outcome of the suite was.

.

One, that is stupid as hell.

Two, sounds like that may be a classic ExD case, I'd like to hear more.

[jlw]

Handcuffs are a very poor solution to a medical matter.

[JFK]

What is being done? Memphis set the example with the CIT, Crisis Intervention Team, concept.


Can you give me a synopsis of this?

[Chuck Haggard]

Can you give me a synopsis of this?

National model; http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=cit2 and http://www.citinternational.org/

At my job; http://www.topeka.org/tpd/cit.shtml


Memphis;
http://www.memphispolice.org/crisis%20intervention.htm


It grieves me that a bunch of LE agencies are not yet on board with this idea.

Hell, one of my buds near where Tam lives replied "What's that?" when I mentioned the number of excited delirium cases we have had over the past year. Seriously? It's 2013, people need to get some training.

[Tamara]

Hell, one of my buds near where Tam lives replied "What's that?" when I mentioned the number of excited delirium cases we have had over the past year.

Srsly? 'Cause we had a classic (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5373-Naked-ninja-in-Indy!) right here in Naptown not too long back. :eek:

[Chuck Haggard]

Srsly? 'Cause we had a classic (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5373-Naked-ninja-in-Indy!) right here in Naptown not too long back. :eek:

Yup, serious as a heart attack. But he is in a well known hole of a town just about an hour north of you.

[fixer]

The "on the street" issues with the modern mental health "system" are off the chart. People outside of LE, jailers or mental health folks have very little idea how broke the system really is.

I can only imagine...However I've had my own run in with a "mental healther" with a large butcher knife at a friend's church... and because of it, I can seriously empathize with Todd's comments above.

After the incident was over, I asked the officers what was gonna happen and they simply indicated "not much." He will be processed and then probably released unless they can get a homeless shelter to take the guy.

[ToddG]

I don't carry a less lethal option.

This.

I wouldn't criticize someone for carrying OC but the vast majority of people running around with pepper spray have no idea what it's like to be in the vicinity when it goes off, especially indoors. Most of those same folks also have far, far too much confidence in the efficacy of OC.

[jlw]

Private citizens have no duty to detain a mental subject. They have the option to leave. In many cases, badge-toters just don't have that option.

In my own personal experience that there is a lot more pucker factor going through the door with a pick-up order for a mental evaluation than there is for a arrest warrant. It's even worse when it is a field contact and all of the decisions are squarely on the back of the responding cop.

---

On another note, I am not one that believes in the efficacy of OC for ending violent encounters.

[BLR]

Adrenaline, or in the case of the handicapped/mentally ill a poorly working neurological feedback system, can be a very potent factor. Which can render lethal or less lethal options for the instance at hand, ineffective. My mind returns to DocGKRs example of the dude in the hallway soaking up a chest full of 45s finally being put down by an 870 IIRC.

The physiology and psychology of the handicapped/mentally ill do not mesh well with "normal" people.

[JFK]

Adrenaline, or in the case of the handicapped/mentally ill a poorly working neurological feedback system, can be a very potent factor. Which can render lethal or less lethal options for the instance at hand, ineffective. My mind returns to DocGKRs example of the dude in the hallway soaking up a chest full of 45s finally being put down by an 870 IIRC.

The physiology and psychology of the handicapped/mentally ill do not mesh well with "normal" people.

In the article one of the example shooting states the officer fired twice, but the subject advanced still, leading the officer to believe he missed, and fired twice more. I am just so shocked at the "movie" ideas that some of the comments garnered. Not to get too far off topic, but he shot hime twice, then twice again, and popular opinion thought that was excessive.

If I was scared and defensive, I think I would have shot more. 2 rounds + 2 rounds seems very hesitant to me, unless you guys are trained that way.

[Chuck Haggard]

In the article one of the example shooting states the officer fired twice, but the subject advanced still, leading the officer to believe he missed, and fired twice more. I am just so shocked at the "movie" ideas that some of the comments garnered. Not to get too far off topic, but he shot hime twice, then twice again, and popular opinion thought that was excessive.

If I was scared and defensive, I think I would have shot more. 2 rounds + 2 rounds seems very hesitant to me, unless you guys are trained that way.

Could be, but I don't know anyone who is trained that way. Much more likely that the officer was hesitant to use force and risked their own safety trying to use less than more. That is way more common in LE circles than most people know.