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peterb
10-22-2013, 06:18 PM
From another thread:

We had a big discussion on the issues with shotguns going down. Tom concurred with our assessment that these are converted "sporting guns" into a combative role. We have found that when they go down it is usually a "go to the gunsmith" level of failure. Most of the modern service weapons can have parts easily replaced. This is not often the case with things like pump shotguns and many revolvers.

If you have time, I'd like to hear more about the mechanical failures you've seen in pump shotguns. The family inventory includes 500s and 870s.

nycnoob
10-22-2013, 07:11 PM
I too would be interested to hear more about shotgun reliability.

The first shotgun I bought was from ai&p tactical (http://www.aiptactical.com/). The claim is that Remington 870 shotguns can be easily upgraded to the police model with a few parts upgrades (which he does) he also Parkerizes the guns. All of this appears reasonable but I really have not heard from an independent source if this is worth it.

My second pump is just a cheap Hawk 982 (Chinese 870 clone) (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-982) which is available for less than $200. I am satisfied with this purchase but wonder if I should perform some of the same upgrades (and would the Remington parts fit?) The only upgrade I did to the shotgun was replace the butt pad (Limbsaver 870 youth model will fit,).

Do people change out the magazine springs in the magazine tube? I only see replacement springs advertised for the extended tube and I am worried about cutting coils (probably because people tell me not to cut coils off the trigger spring, this spring may be fine to cut for all I know).


I have been wondering if I should take an armorer/gunsmith course for the pump. I have no idea even where to lube it. I just take it apart and grease the parts that move, including the slide assembly and bolt and locking block assembly though I do not think these parts require any lube.


Oh and while I am rambling about things I do not understand, does anyone have any information about the scheme to make the shotgun safety lock the firing pin (or was it hammer) as well. There was a guy who had an add on, but he made a legal ass of himself and I never heard about the technical merits of the scheme.



Just found this link combat-shotgun forum/ (http://www.combat-shotgun.com/)


oh and my favorite internet jape is from the AI&P website


The second photo album are the after pictures. Notice the TPD on the receiver, remember the beat up barrel? The heavy Zinc looks a little sparkly as it is heavy Zinc, you oil it and it is as black as my ex-wife's heart.

RoyGBiv
10-22-2013, 09:14 PM
My second pump is just a cheap Hawk 982 (Chinese 870 clone) (http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/GUN-982) which is available for less than $200. I am satisfied with this purchase.. (snip)
I like mine... So far. $180 at Academy a few months ago.
Still trying to find Federal LE132-1B for it to make sure it works with the ammo I want it to carry.

John Ralston
10-22-2013, 09:24 PM
An 870P has all machined internals, so I don't know how easy it would be to convert an 870 to an 870P. That said, how many rounds does it take to wear out an 870 Express? Probably more than most people ever shoot. The Benelli Nova and the Mossy 590 would probably be good choices too. If it breaks, it isn't going to be a field fix anyway, so it might not be such a big deal. Most shotguns are fairly simplistic, and you could probably do the fix at home with a punch and 10 minutes.

LSP972
10-23-2013, 07:16 AM
The only real "gunsmith type" repairs on an 870 is the shell latches and the ejector. These are rather tricky and benefit from special staking tools. Replacing some of the springs in the trigger group are beyond your average Glock enthusiast's abilities, as well; but the bottom line is, these things hardly EVER break.

We kept up to a dozen "range shotguns" handy for training extras, etc. They got used pretty hard; much more than the average shotgun issued to the individual trooper. We had to replace/repair the shell latches on those miserable Ithaca 37s fairly frequently. Once we moved to 870s, all that effort went away.

When I retired, the sheriff's office range I went to work out did the same thing, except those 870s got used even more. Many of the S.O. personnel are not issued a shotgun, but are required to be qualified on it (jail folks, etc.).

Truth is, the 870 is about as simple and robust of a weapon "platform" (sorry, I'm feeling all tingly and tactical this morning :cool: ) you can get. With just a bit of maintenance, it will provide you with much trouble-free service.

If you're really that concerned about it, I would purchase a complete extra trigger group. These are a drop-in replacement, and given the manufacturing shortcuts/increased use of plastic in this component as of late, I suspect it is now the weak link in the 870 system. Just my opinion, I dunno for sure as I haven't been around any recent-production examples. The one I bought when I retired has a plastic trigger group with that retarded "diallable" safety to lock the trigger. The gun hasn't had 100 shells through it in six years; I bought it mainly "just because", so while I find that trigger group distasteful, I'm not worried about it... for now. I keep meaning to score a "real" trigger group (all metal, no lock), but have simply neglected to get around to it.

If that suddenly became my only shoulder gun, I'd be scrambling to find an extra trigger group.

Just sayin'... ;)

.

jlw
10-23-2013, 08:08 AM
The worst thing that I have seen was an 870P that simply wouldn't feed rounds that had been loaded into the tube brass first. Big Green should be ashamed of themselves for letting that particular gun get past quality control. Pump shotguns are supposed to feed everything!!!

----

I bought a used/agency trade-in 870P years ago and took it to a 40 hour shotgun instructor course. I didn't realize that the detent ball was missing from the mag cap. Thankfully, I caught that something "didn't look right" in the middle of a course of fire and stopped. The mag cap was working loose. One of the instructors was an armorer and had the parts to fix it.

One of the other instructors was kind enough to take it home over night and thread it for choke tubes. The next day before class started, they made a big deal of asking me if there was any other work I would like to have done on my gun before the shooting started. :cool:;);)

I have seen a few issues caused by improper sidesaddle installation.

I saw the the safety button fly off of a Mossy/New Haven 600.

Recently, I won a 590A1 in a drawing, but I have yet to fire a shot through it; so, no reports.

Tamara
10-23-2013, 09:06 AM
ProTip: Non-MIM 870P extractors are NOT drop-in parts. At least not in my experience. :o

BLR
10-23-2013, 10:14 AM
What does drop in mean to you, Tam?

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

Tamara
10-23-2013, 10:20 AM
What does drop in mean to you, Tam?

The dictionary definition or the parts catalog definition?

To translate catalog-speak (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2008/11/gunsmithery-sorta.html) into English:

"Drop In" Installation: Some fitting required.
Some Fitting Required: Better take it to a good gunsmith.
Gunsmith Installation Recommended: ...and bring money.

BLR
10-23-2013, 10:22 AM
Was actually a serious question. To be used as a data point for something I'm writing.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

Tamara
10-23-2013, 10:34 AM
Was actually a serious question. To be used as a data point for something I'm writing.

My answer, although tongue-n-cheek, reflects a depressing reality in that a lot of things that are labeled "drop-in" are, in reality, "some fitting required".

Truly drop-in parts should plop in the gun and go. If this requires making them so undersized that you can drop them in from across the room, then it shouldn't affect reliability.

(This makes truly drop in parts for, say, the plethora of variously spec'ed guns on the market that are broadly referred to as "1911s" a virtual impossibility. :( )

Chuck Haggard
10-23-2013, 10:50 AM
We have ten Mossberg 500s that we use as range guns, and have for the past 20 years.

They are ugly, and they get really gunked up, but they tend to work every time, all the time. I think we have shot a couple of them to the points they are towards the end of their service life, but they have proven to be very durable guns.

VolGrad
10-23-2013, 01:26 PM
We have ten Mossberg 500s that we use as range guns, and have for the past 20 years.

They are ugly, and they get really gunked up, but they tend to work every time, all the time. I think we have shot a couple of them to the points they are towards the end of their service life, but they have proven to be very durable guns.

Are you talking about the cheap 500s or the upgraded model 590s?

LSP972
10-23-2013, 03:22 PM
ProTip: Non-MIM 870P extractors are NOT drop-in parts. At least not in my experience. :o

I recall having to change exactly TWO 870 extractors, both on older, blued 870Ps. This out of a "fleet" of 800+ guns, over 15+ years. We didn't get those steenkin' Ithacas completely purged until 1993.

I don't remember having to do any "fitting"... but as I stated, I don't have any mechanicing experience with newer-production 870s, so...

.

Tamara
10-23-2013, 04:33 PM
I recall having to change exactly TWO 870 extractors, both on older, blued 870Ps. This out of a "fleet" of 800+ guns, over 15+ years. We didn't get those steenkin' Ithacas completely purged until 1993.

I don't remember having to do any "fitting"... but as I stated, I don't have any mechanicing experience with newer-production 870s, so...

Unless someone here has a time machine, ain't none of us gonna be changing 870 extractors back in the good ol' days anymore. ;)

Chuck Haggard
10-23-2013, 07:09 PM
Are you talking about the cheap 500s or the upgraded model 590s?

The police model 500s, not the 590s, which are heavier duty.


One of the very real advantages to the 500 is that they are more modular than the 870, zero fitted parts, so more Glockish to work on.

LSP972
10-23-2013, 08:01 PM
Unless someone here has a time machine, ain't none of us gonna be changing 870 extractors back in the good ol' days anymore. ;)

Not sure what you mean by that... but there are many, many older 870s without MIM parts still in service.

And they weren't so good; actually, they were kind of sucky at times. I see the beautiful facility my successors have to conduct training at, the support they are getting from the command staff, and I realize that, heightened liability aside, these guys have it a LOT better than my crew did... MIM parts or no MIM parts.

.

Tamara
10-23-2013, 10:48 PM
Not sure what you mean by that... but there are many, many older 870s without MIM parts still in service.

The extractor I put in my shotgun wasn't MIM, either. (Apparently there's another issue (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=336774) with new non-MIM 870P extractors as well, although I don't know as it's one I'd get all spun up about...)

Dagga Boy
10-26-2013, 08:50 PM
I have found that most of the "true" police/military shotguns (heavier duty steel parts) tend to run ......and at some point they will "break". Usually a shell latch, extractor, broken external spring, broken rails where they attach to the forend, etc. Once this happens, it need to go to someone who really knows what they are doing (armorer or gunsmith with appropriate tools). The good thing is that this usually takes quite awhile, and the reality is most people and police departments don't shoot very much. Some people and groups shoot high round counts and a healthy diet of slugs, and they will see more issues.

The biggest issue is often lack of maintenance or pure abuse...which is inexcusable in my mind, but happens a lot.

WDW
10-26-2013, 11:12 PM
I have found that most of the "true" police/military shotguns (heavier duty steel parts) tend to run ......and at some point they will "break". Usually a shell latch, extractor, broken external spring, broken rails where they attach to the forend, etc. Once this happens, it need to go to someone who really knows what they are doing (armorer or gunsmith with appropriate tools). The good thing is that this usually takes quite awhile, and the reality is most people and police departments don't shoot very much. Some people and groups shoot high round counts and a healthy diet of slugs, and they will see more issues.

The biggest issue is often lack of maintenance or pure abuse...which is inexcusable in my mind, but happens a lot.

What would you say are the Top 5 duty grade shotguns?
I would say, in no particular order....
1. Benelli M2
2. Benelli M4
3. 870P
4. M590a1
5. Mossy 500
* The Beretta Storm & 1301 are great but hard to find.

Chuck Whitlock
10-27-2013, 01:02 AM
I have found that most of the "true" police/military shotguns (heavier duty steel parts) tend to run ......and at some point they will "break". Usually a shell latch, extractor, broken external spring, broken rails where they attach to the forend, etc. Once this happens, it need to go to someone who really knows what they are doing (armorer or gunsmith with appropriate tools). The good thing is that this usually takes quite awhile, and the reality is most people and police departments don't shoot very much. Some people and groups shoot high round counts and a healthy diet of slugs, and they will see more issues.

The biggest issue is often lack of maintenance or pure abuse...which is inexcusable in my mind, but happens a lot.

Greg "Sully" Sullivan described a pump shotgun as a series of switches and levers.
The good ones tend to run for a while, but when the relationship of the parts gets out of whack, or one of the above things breaks hard, then it is broke.

shooter220
10-27-2013, 09:35 AM
I don't have a ton of experience with pumps, but I have a decent amount.

I have never seen problems with the 870Ps except for things like old ammo coming apart in the tube (which is a nasty mess). But, that is also a sign that folks weren't doing much in the way of training or maintenance. What I HAVE seen problems with is folks with 870 Express-types. But, virtually all of those problems were people trying to do piecemeal upgrades like, "I bought a better bolt" but not knowing enough about the action to make sure it was fitted properly.

Because of experiences with a Remington 572, one area in the trigger group that I have always been wary of is the "action bar lock" - I broke a couple in my .22 as a kid, but have never seen signs of the same part failing in the infinitely more robust trigger group of the 870.

In terms of the other brands - the 870's of the early 90s seemed far more reliable to me than the WInchester 1200s of the same era, but that is based on pretty anecdotal information at best. I don't have anything I would consider real data. In the modern era, I think an 870P or a Benelli SuperNova Tactical would be the choice to make for a pump - but the Mossberg 590 is no slouch either.

-shooter

Tamara
10-28-2013, 02:51 PM
What I HAVE seen problems with is folks with 870 Express-types. But, virtually all of those problems were people trying to do piecemeal upgrades like, "I bought a better bolt" but not knowing enough about the action to make sure it was fitted properly.

What kind of unlettered rube would do a thing like that? :rolleyes:

shooter220
11-03-2013, 08:09 PM
What kind of unlettered rube would do a thing like that? :rolleyes:

In a recent case a shooting buddy of mine who I was shooting wobble trap with. His 870 hung up after he talked me into giving it a try - causing me to miss a bird, and THEN he says, "it must be the new bolt not cycling". I replied, "what was wrong with the old one?"

I have this crazy belief about solving actual problems...

-shooter

Tamara
11-04-2013, 10:21 AM
In a recent case a shooting buddy of mine who I was shooting wobble trap with. His 870 hung up after he talked me into giving it a try - causing me to miss a bird, and THEN he says, "it must be the new bolt not cycling". I replied, "what was wrong with the old one?"

I have this crazy belief about solving actual problems...

-shooter

I was making a joke at my own expense. Having bought an NOS 870 Express with the MIM extractor, I had it replaced with a current-production non-MIM unit... and then flew all the way across country to a big ol' 3 gun match without, you know, function checking the extractor to see if it needed any burrs dressed off. :o

167
11-04-2013, 11:33 AM
I have seen several fairly pricey "custom" 870's all suffer the same type of failure, broken ejectors like this one.

http://www.rem870.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/broken_ejector_remington.jpg

This caused a problem with extracting spent shells from the chamber. The edge of the brass rim would catch on the broken part. I haven't held the same opinion of the 870 since.

Alaskapopo
01-02-2014, 01:04 AM
From another thread:


If you have time, I'd like to hear more about the mechanical failures you've seen in pump shotguns. The family inventory includes 500s and 870s.

Surprisingly 870 have been giving more and more trouble lately. At a 3 gun I hosted last September a new shooter with a new 870 had his extractor fly off the gun on the 2 round fired. A few years back I saw several 870's go down at a match I hosted that had over 40 required slug shots. (I will never do that again in a match people hated me for it)

Here is an 870 I had rebuilt (was a old gun I got for $100 bucks) giving me troubles. Something got caught under the shell release arms that hold rounds in the magazine tube. I had to finish the stage single shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e9_Eg0pigo

BWT
01-03-2014, 12:28 PM
This, IMHO, is why I'm really not able to recommend 870's.

That and if you're a lefty, you're SOL for the safety.

Oh and don't snag your hand in the feeding gate.

Oh and you'll have to take your hand off the grip to cycle a round in the chamber.

I know I've heard good things but, I'd take a Mossberg 500 or 590 (if you really want a metal trigger guard and bayonet lug) over a Remington 870.

Just my $.02.

TR675
01-06-2014, 12:29 PM
I know I've heard good things but, I'd take a Mossberg 500 or 590 (if you really want a metal trigger guard and bayonet lug) over a Remington 870.

After playing around with both, I much prefer Mossberg's control layout.

TheTrevor
01-07-2014, 02:23 AM
After playing around with both, I much prefer Mossberg's control layout.

Ditto, even though the safety doesn't work so well with a pistol-grip stock. I'll take it over a cross-block button safety any day.


Oh and don't snag your hand in the feeding gate.

That's true of most every off the shelf shotgun not built for competition. My Weatherby tried to bite off a fingernail earlier thus week, really need to get that welded up.

Chuck Whitlock
01-07-2014, 10:33 AM
After playing around with both, I much prefer Mossberg's control layout.

So do I.


Oh and don't snag your hand in the feeding gate.

Another advantage to the Mossy. No gate....the lifter stows in the up position. And any rounds in the tube that slip past the shell stop just go on the ground instead of tying up the weapon.


Ditto, even though the safety doesn't work so well with a pistol-grip stock. I'll take it over a cross-block button safety any day.

The Magpul stock makes this a moot issue.

TR675
01-07-2014, 10:35 AM
Oh and don't snag your hand in the feeding gate.

This was a nasty surprise for me. 1300, Nova - never a problem. One outing with the 870 and I had a blood blister right on the tip of my thumb just under the fingernail.

Keeping my thumb vertical and using the thumb pad instead of the thumb tip to push shells in fixed the problem.