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JodyH
10-22-2013, 09:39 AM
Anyone have any experience with Buffalo Bore's standard pressure .38 special 150gr. wad cutters?
I'm running low on full wad cutters (carry load in my Scandium J-frame) and these are the only thing I can find in stock consistently.
I'm not interested in their +P ("proof load in every box") line of ammo, just this particular standard pressure hard cast wad cutter.
How's their QC?
Looking to use this until Black Hills 148gr. wad cutters are back in stock.

jetfire
10-22-2013, 09:48 AM
Anyone have any experience with Buffalo Bore's standard pressure .38 special 150gr. wad cutters?
I'm running low on full wad cutters (carry load in my Scandium J-frame) and these are the only thing I can find in stock consistently.
I'm not interested in their +P ("proof load in every box") line of ammo, just this particular standard pressure hard cast wad cutter.
How's their QC?
Looking to use this until Black Hills 148gr. wad cutters are back in stock.

I use Buffalo Bore ammo when I can't get Double-Tap's +P SWC. The Buffalo Bore stuff is rad, with excellent QC to my experience.

LSP972
10-22-2013, 10:43 AM
The Buffalo Bore stuff is rad...

I believe that is the first time I've ever seen that word used to describe ammunition. What, exactly, do you mean?

Aside, of course from the "proof load in every box"... No kidding re that.

.

LSP972
10-22-2013, 10:47 AM
I'm running low on full wad cutters (carry load in my Scandium J-frame) .

Curious to know your reason for using WCs instead of a +P JHP.

.

jetfire
10-22-2013, 10:51 AM
Curious to know your reason for using WCs instead of a +P JHP.

.

Out of one of the helium-weight snubbies, a full WC is a lot more pleasant to shoot and will still deliver sufficient penetration. There won't be any expansion to speak of, but a hard lead WC that penetrates 16 inches AND you'll actually practice with is a pretty solid choice.

Also, "rad" when used in this context means "excellent."

JodyH
10-22-2013, 11:05 AM
Curious to know your reason for using WCs instead of a +P JHP.
The heavy wadcutters shoot nice groups that match up to the fixed sights.
The only HP bullet I really trust in .38spcl. is the Barnes XTP solid copper and they occasionally keyhole out of my model 360.
Recoil in a 12oz. boot gripped J-frame is hella-stout with +P's, the standard wadcutters make for much faster more accurate follow up shots.
Non-Barnes HP's are iffy on penetration/expansion in a <2" barrel J-frame, the wadcutter cuts a nice deep hole every time.
My reload is Ranger SXT +P's for the easier loading bullet profile (and accuracy in my 360), but my first 5 are wadcutters.

In my 640 Pro 2-1/8" all steel J-frame I carry the Wilson Combat/Barnes XTP .38 +P's.
They shoot great out of it and penetrate/expand exactly like the brochure pictures.

LSP972
10-22-2013, 03:36 PM
Also, "rad" when used in this context means "excellent."

I see. Thanks.

.

LSP972
10-22-2013, 03:48 PM
The heavy wadcutters shoot nice groups that match up to the fixed sights.

Recoil in a 12oz. boot gripped J-frame is hella-stout with +P's, the standard wadcutters make for much faster more accurate follow up shots.


Okay, I'll buy those... especially the second one. Trust me, I know all about recoil in an AirLite; I've been carrying and shooting one since 2001.

Still, as I use mine for a back-up and not primary, and I seriously doubt I'll have time to use sights if I must deploy it, I choose to go with a bit more grunt behind the bullet. The 158 LSWCHP +P out of snubbies has been dropping folks for a long time.

But I can see the logic behind using factory wadcutters.

.

Wayne Dobbs
10-22-2013, 08:47 PM
They're also NJ legal where HPs are prohibited. I've been there four times this year teaching armorer courses and used them for my 642. I normally prefer the CCI 135 GDHP in this revolver though.

Chuck Haggard
10-22-2013, 09:20 PM
I also tried the BB wadcutters before I went to NJ for carry in my 638. Shot to the sights, non +P level of recoil, everything went bang. I only had 60 rounds to work with though.

Tom Givens noted that this load shoots to the sights in one of his Cobras so he uses it for the carry load in that gun. Article was in one of his Rangemaster newsletters.

LSP972
10-22-2013, 09:36 PM
They're also NJ legal where HPs are prohibited.

I keep forgetting that parts of this once-great nation are now Occupied Territory. What a crock... but yes, I can see that advantage as well. Definitely better than ball or RNL, for sure.

.

Totem Polar
10-22-2013, 10:07 PM
Only two things have kept me from converting to that BB 150 gr waddy load for my Js: one, the continually expanding track record of the 135 gr GDHP +P along with the old (but long) track record of the Remington LSWCHP+P and, two, the fact that I can't shoot lead in my range to check them out.

But I like the idea.

So far as BB QC, I have become a fan of BB's muscle car-esque version of the FBI load alluded to above; that's just nuts out of a 4" K-frame. Enough to give the old RCMP load serious envy. Wish I could afford to *really* stock up.

JodyH
10-26-2013, 12:49 PM
So far 20 rounds downrange with no issues.
Recoil is stout in my Scandium J, more than Black Hills wadcutters but less than Winchester +P's.
After zeroing my LG-105 laser grips with 5 rounds I put 5 rounds into a 2"x2" card at 12 yards (12 is my favorite zero distance).
5 more rounds rapid fire to check for pullet pull (all good), then 5 rounds under low light to see what kind of flash they had (very minimal).
I hereby declare them GTG (because my hand can't take shooting another box of them).
:p

Totem Polar
10-26-2013, 01:09 PM
^^^:cool:

Somewhere, in the dim recesses of my Freudian Id, a voice keeps trying to encourage me to break out a DAO charter bulldog, just to be able to lug around the rip-snorting, 200gr .44spec version of BB's FWC in secret. That would be like throwing lead teacup saucers at 900fps sideways; only the fact that charter bulldogs are sort of retarded by today's standards stops me. Damn ego.

1911Nut
10-27-2013, 04:27 PM
I have extensive experience with Buffalo Bore standard pressure Item # 20C 158 gr. LSWCHP factory ammo.

QC is excellent in all I have used. Average MV from the two LCR revolvers in 827 FPS. Recoil is stout from the lightweight revolver, but not intolerable. The load is accurate and POI is about 1" above POA at 15 yards from both revolvers. The bullet used is very soft and barrels show lead buildup after only 15-20 rounds.

I worked up a load in .38 Special cases with an Oregon Trail hard cast LSWC (not HP) using W231 powder that gives me virtually identical MV's and POI at 15 yards. This allows me to use the handload for practice without getting a lead buildup in the barrel of the revolvers, but I can carry the BB ammo for carry loads.

Hope this information helps.

Im51504ID
11-04-2013, 08:41 PM
My old friend Gene Wolberg recommended carrying wadcutters in airweight guns 30 years ago. He had seen quite a few shootings, both intentional and accidental with them, and had noted the penetration and tissue cutting abilities of those benign looking little slugs. I still carry them in my Airlite Ti gun today. I know that they'll penetrate sufficiently, and I know exactly where they're going.

I think a lot of folks would be better served with WC's in their lightweight .38's.

LSP972
11-06-2013, 04:20 PM
My old friend Gene Wolberg ...

Now, there was an interesting fellow to chat with.

RIP.

.

Chuck Haggard
11-06-2013, 07:26 PM
I think a lot of folks would be better served with WC's in their lightweight .38's.

I tend to agree after seeing a few shootings where wadcutters were used.

Im51504ID
11-07-2013, 02:43 PM
Now, there was an interesting fellow to chat with.

RIP.

.

Indeed. Did far more to advance the science of wound ballistics than he'll ever be given credit for.

Im51504ID
11-07-2013, 02:56 PM
I tend to agree after seeing a few shootings where wadcutters were used.

Except for those who work in the field like yourself, it still seems to be a well kept secret though. I still give them to friends and family members who are incredulous that they will work as well as they do.

I have to laugh when I think back of all the 148 grain wadcutters I shot in PPC, while switching to ammo like 110 Super Vel's for "business ammo". We didn't know what we didn't know.

Chuck Haggard
11-07-2013, 10:44 PM
Knowing then what I know now I woulda just kept wadcutters in my BUG, a Colt Cobra, instead of constantly chasing the next uber "stopping power" loading.

Im51504ID
11-08-2013, 01:30 PM
Knowing then what I know now I woulda just kept wadcutters in my BUG, a Colt Cobra, instead of constantly chasing the next uber "stopping power" loading.

Ditto. But all we had for terminal performance info back then, were anecdotal shooting stories, which were usually 90% inaccurate, and gun magazines, which were usually 100% inaccurate.

"We had to shoot that guy 11 times, our gun/caliber/ammo sucks".

Translation: we shot at him 11 times, hit him once in the foot, once in the pinky, and finally one in the lung that dropped him.

Moonshot
11-14-2013, 07:22 AM
Curious - how does Buffalo Bore get a 150gr bullet to leave the muzzel at 850 fps at standard pressure while the Gold Dot 135gr leaves the muzzel at 860 fps but needs +p power levels to do so?

They state "These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo...the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders."

I don't know what a "modern non-canister powder" is, but unless it's a trade secret, why don't other companies offer anything similar?

I'm not knocking Buffalo Bore. While I have never shot one of their rounds, I have never heard anything bad about them. Their QC is supposedly excellent. I am just skeptical of how anyone can get that heavy a bullet to move at that speed at standard pressure, particularly out of a sub-2" barrel.

Unless most ammo companies load their standard pressure .38 ammo to levels far lower than necessary to stay within SAMMI specs, and therefore Buffalo Bore can load to higher than normal yet still fall within standard pressure limits, it all sounds like advertising hype. Please show me where I am wrong.

Chuck Haggard
11-14-2013, 07:29 AM
What little I know about reloading includes that one can get reduced pressures using a lead bullet vs a jacketed one. That may be part of what makes it possible.

Although I'd be curious to see if they ever had the load pressure tested to confirm it is not +P

JAD
11-14-2013, 08:17 AM
yet still fall within standard pressure limits, it all sounds like advertising hype.

Speaking as an occasional hype man, there's a difference between hyping and lying. If the premise is that BB delivers x velocity at y pressure, that's testable. SAAMI is voluntary, I assume, but it should be pretty easy to get to the bottom of this.

BLR
11-14-2013, 08:29 AM
Curious - how does Buffalo Bore get a 150gr bullet to leave the muzzel at 850 fps at standard pressure while the Gold Dot 135gr leaves the muzzel at 860 fps but needs +p power levels to do so?

They state "These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo...the "POWER" level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders."

I don't know what a "modern non-canister powder" is, but unless it's a trade secret, why don't other companies offer anything similar?

I'm not knocking Buffalo Bore. While I have never shot one of their rounds, I have never heard anything bad about them. Their QC is supposedly excellent. I am just skeptical of how anyone can get that heavy a bullet to move at that speed at standard pressure, particularly out of a sub-2" barrel.

Unless most ammo companies load their standard pressure .38 ammo to levels far lower than necessary to stay within SAMMI specs, and therefore Buffalo Bore can load to higher than normal yet still fall within standard pressure limits, it all sounds like advertising hype. Please show me where I am wrong.

There are a bunch of variables at play.

As tpd223 said, lead is easier to make lead faster at lower pressures. This is a result of good sealing properties, softness, and potentially bearing surface area.

"Non canister" powder is something other than what you or I would buy off the shelf. This assures us that load data is valid and safe. For example, I have a pet "non canister" powder that is 90% canister Bullseye, but with some additives to eliminate flash and smoke. More often than not, that is what the ammo companies are doing - flash reduction, stability, and performance modifiers are added to meet a specific requirement.

Smaller companies often do load closer to the upper pressure levels. And throwing the +P on a box makes it sexier. And the smaller the company, the more likely you will have someone loading ammo with canister powder to a published spec.

Moonshot
11-14-2013, 01:12 PM
I'll accept what you all say as accurate, primarily because I know nothing about reloading and I cannot offer any contradiction. However, I remain skeptical.

They offer high velocity and heavy weight for penetration, low flash, low recoil, and standard pressure suitable for the recoil sensitive as well as alloy frames all in the same round!

I will try and keep an open mind, but the adage if something seems too good to be true it probably is remains in force (at least for now).