PDA

View Full Version : I can't decide which one to get...



JRas
05-27-2011, 01:05 AM
after too much research and learning I still can't decide what I want. I suppose it's time to ask the experts ;)

Predicament:
HK45
HK45C
P30
M&P 9mm or .45ACP ( no compacts )
1911 ( government )

HK45:
I really wanted it but decided it's just too large for me to conceal due to my size.

HK45C:
I kinda like the idea of the HK45C but they should of made it like the P30. I hate those finger magazine designs. I've seen the flat floor plates but I'd honesty rather just get a P30 with the ergo grip.

P30:
I feel like it's a great gun for what I want, should feed hallowpoints reliably. I heard the grip chafes peoples sides. Which would conceal easier, 1911 or P30?

M&P:
I really dislike like the idea of a striker action concealed carry
I shoot it well
low-bore axis
good bang for the buck

1911:
I've read it conceals well fullsized, like that
may not feed hallowpoints reliably
9mm hallowpoint vs .45ACP FMJ?

reasons:
.45ACP vs 9mm
Weight
Striker vs Hammer
Size
Old vs New

.45ACP vs 9mm:
I've put a lot of research into this subject and I still can't say which is "better". I know it comes down to shot placement and all handguns are "underpowered". I'm still :confused:

Weight:
Polymer vs Metal
Polymer seems like better technology
Metal is legit :eek:

Striker vs Hammer:
I like the idea of Striker, in the gun ( less likely to be interfered with? )
Less moving parts I've read ( True? )

Hammer:
I feel holstering a hammer action handgun would be safer, keeping my thumb on the hammer making sure I'm not pulling the trigger somehow.

Size:
I want to conceal a weapon without it being ridiculous
"Carrying a concealed firearm is not supposed to be comfortable; it's supposed to be comforting."
I don't really want to have to dress around it, I want to be able to conceal with just a tshirt because I feel I won't carry as much as I should unless I can. Arizona Heat..

so now it basically comes down to
HK45C
P30
1911 ( here's another one commander vs government )

If you made it through my thread, Thank you.. hopefully you don't feel like I do.

JM Campbell
05-27-2011, 01:19 AM
P30....15rounds of 9mm....downright work horse

I'm biased though.

jslaker
05-27-2011, 02:04 AM
There is relatively little difference in the terminal performance of 9mm and .45 ACP when using modern JHPs if hard barrier performance isn't a high priority. I would generally stick to 9mm unless somebody else is paying for your ammunition as you'll be able to shoot cosiderably more and be able to enjoy the additional proficiency that comes with trigger time.

Given your options and concerns, the P30 is a solid choice.

F-Trooper05
05-27-2011, 02:05 AM
What are your plans with it? It sounds like you're looking for a carry gun, correct? How much handgun experience do you have? What else do you own?

Personally I would shit can the 1911 idea.

Do you get free ammo from your department, and/or make lots of money, and/or reload? If not, than I would look at 9mm's such as the M&P9 or the P30. They're both good guns, so flip a coin.

JRas
05-27-2011, 02:17 AM
What are your plans with it? It sounds like you're looking for a carry gun, correct? How much handgun experience do you have? What else do you own?

Personally I would shit can the 1911 idea.

Do you get free ammo from your department, and/or make lots of money, and/or reload? If not, than I would look at 9mm's such as the M&P9 or the P30. They're both good guns, so flip a coin.

Home Defense, Concealed Carry, Hobby

Yes, I'd like to be able to carry the gun the majority of the time. I'm not looking to carry at first until I'm competent in doing so though.

I have no real handgun experience. I've only shot friends handguns and rentals.

Rifles, nothing extravagant

Why no go on the 1911?

I'm not a LEO, I don't make a lot of money, and I don't reload. I'm okay with the 9mm in all honesty.

jslaker
05-27-2011, 03:10 AM
Why no go on the 1911?

Extremely maintenance intensive compared to more modern designs.

A 1911 can be a good gun, but I think Larry Vickers put it well in saying that you pretty much must become your own armorer if you want to run a 1911 seriously.

JHC
05-27-2011, 03:54 AM
I could almost guarantee the Scottsdale Gun Club will have each for rental. You might consider shooting each first.

P30.

Comedian
05-27-2011, 07:46 AM
Of the choices listed, i would go with the P30.

JRas
05-27-2011, 08:51 AM
Extremely maintenance intensive compared to more modern designs.

A 1911 can be a good gun, but I think Larry Vickers put it well in saying that you pretty much must become your own armorer if you want to run a 1911 seriously.


I could almost guarantee the Scottsdale Gun Club will have each for rental. You might consider shooting each first.

P30.

They do, I've already shot them with the exception of the HK45C.

CQC.45
05-27-2011, 09:05 AM
I would strongly urge you to check out the M&P45 mid-size w/ apex parts. It brings together all of the factors you speak of in a very nice package. GandR Tactical offers them w/ apex parts pre-installed.

Kyle Reese
05-27-2011, 09:08 AM
Given your choices, P30 all the way.

JRas
06-14-2011, 09:46 AM
went to the range yesterday. I tried out the P30, 1911, and a HK45C

P30:
hard to beat, really like it

1911:
I can't seem to get a good grip, it's like the grip saftey is right in the way. I tried going underneath it and I tried riding it.

HK45c:
I hated the compact feel.. the bottom of my hand felt like it had no grip. It was accurate but the slide felt like it hung after each shot.

I think as of now it's 1911 vs P30. Concealibility?

John Ralston
06-14-2011, 10:01 AM
I would go P30, as ammo is half the price of 45 and you will get to practice more. I find the P30 just as easy to conceal as a 1911.

DocGKR
06-14-2011, 05:43 PM
Don't purchase any pistol right now.

Instead, get some extensive training. Learn how to run a pistol. Learn how to live with a pistol on a daily basis. Learn how to care for a CCW/duty pistol. Learn what characteristics you desire in a pistol.

Once you get some basic instruction, get some additional more advanced classes. EAG, Magpul Dynamics, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, ITTS, Todd Green/PistolTraining.com, and TigerSwan have all offered superb instruction for officers here––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, LMS Defense, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla/Redback One, Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Tom DiTomasso/Fulcrum Concepts, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught on shotguns. A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.

After you know a bit more about pistols, have not picked up any bad habits, and are somewhat competent, get a pistol of your choice.

"Try out" handguns by renting one at the range or borrowing from a friend, not by purchasing one...

Most people are far better off using a quality 9 mm handgun like the ubiquitous 3rd gen G19, since for CCW and most urban LE duty, there are a lot of advantages in carrying a 9mm--easy to shoot one handed, relatively inexpensive to practice with, lots of bullets in the magazine. When I injured my strong hand a few years ago and lost its use for several months, I found out how much more effective I was using a G19 weak handed compared to a 1911...

There are several circumstances where going with .45 ACP makes sense:

-- If you get issued free .45 ACP ammo at work and not other calibers
-- If you already possess a large cache of .45 ACP ammo
-- There is a strong likelihood you will have to shoot through laminated glass or wood intermediate barriers and .40 S&W is not an option
-- You are issued a pistol type that works best in .45 ACP (ex. 1911) or clearly shoot best with such a pistol
-- You live in a state that has asinine laws illogically restricting magazine capacity to 10 rds or less

As has been stated many times before, it is best to pick ONE type of handgun and truly learn to master it. Purchase 2 or 3 identical handguns--one for duty/CCW, one for training, and perhaps a third one to sit in a lock box at home for use as a back-up or to arm a family member if necessary.

So to summarize, after you have taken some classes, purchase a pistol you feel works well. Train with it for a while to prove its utility for you. Then purchase one or two additional identical ones and you never have to purchase any more pistols. Simple.

ranburr
06-15-2011, 12:50 AM
Pick whichever fits your hand and that you shoot the best. 9mm is cheaper than .45, but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.

JRas
06-15-2011, 02:44 AM
I would go P30, as ammo is half the price of 45 and you will get to practice more. I find the P30 just as easy to conceal as a 1911.

I hear a lot of people say that but I've personally never seen 9mm half the price of .45ACP. I see a box of 50 9mm for about $15, and a box of 50 .45ACP for about $20. :confused:

Rains on Parades
06-15-2011, 02:46 AM
Don't purchase any pistol right now.

Instead, get some extensive training. Learn how to run a pistol. Learn how to live with a pistol on a daily basis. Learn how to care for a CCW/duty pistol. Learn what characteristics you desire in a pistol.

Once you get some basic instruction, get some additional more advanced classes. EAG, Magpul Dynamics, Trident Concepts, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, ITTS, Todd Green/PistolTraining.com, and TigerSwan have all offered superb instruction for officers here––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, LMS Defense, Kyle Defoor, Jason Falla/Redback One, Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Tom DiTomasso/Fulcrum Concepts, Dave Hall, Don Lazzarini, and Rob Haught on shotguns. A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.

After you know a bit more about pistols, have not picked up any bad habits, and are somewhat competent, get a pistol of your choice.

First of all I want to say that I appreciate and respect the knowledge of the folks on this board. Just by reading here and in Todd's blog I have learned much. And DocGKR is one of the posters that I go out of my way to read because I know that even if I'm not interested in the topic, more often than not there is going to be something I can take away from his post. But this post is an example of a prevailing attitude on this board(and this type of community) that I have come to grow weary of.

There are many folks in this community that are either professional/semi-professional shooters or well funded hobby shooters, and while that provides for a great knowledge base, it can make for some hard to fulfill priorities.

One thing I have learned in my life is that every professional thinks that their profession is the most important. I had a dentist suggest to me one time that I should be brushing my teeth for 15 min. If we all did everything that every doctor, lawyer whatever recommended we wouldn't have any time or money left to do anything else.

While I'm sure that there are some decent classes the guy could take at the local gun club many of the more intermediate to advanced classes cost $400 and up and adding ammo, it's not uncommon to throw down more than a grand per class. And you generally bring your own gun. How are you supposed to learn to live with a gun without a gun? How much money should he throw down to make him knowledgeable enough to buy? How many months? Years? should he learn before buying a gun? This amount of time and money investment is simply unrealistic for the average citizen.

And while he hasn't said so what if he needed protection right now? I had a girl on another forum come on and ask about personal protection because she had a stalker. Would you have told her to spend untold amounts of money and time before buying protection?

The truth is that you should have a minimum amount of training in gun safety and some specific training on the features of your pistol before you become a gun owner. I would be extremely surprised if anyone here followed the method put forth by DocGKR before buying a handgun.

Not to say that I don't understand where Doc's coming from. Owning a handgun is a big responsibility, and there is enough information out there both good and bad that buying a handgun without more background is likely to result in mistakes being made.

But I think that is likely unavoidable. Guns are much like cars(except that cars are much more dangerous) there is a point at which you don't know enough, but you are never going to learn more without doing it.

I think a lot of folks on this board would do well to imagine what they might suggest to an average blue-collar citizen who wanted to protect themselves, but had a family to feed and bills to pay, and a job to go to, and didn't perhaps want to take up firearms as their hobby.

One of the best examples of this that I have seen in this community is the 99 drill. Something that can be done on both a time and money budget.

As I've said all respect given to you Doc, as well as the other folks on this board. But I had to get that off my chest.

*edit*

As to the OP's question:

I detect a want/need dichotomy going on in your post.

It sounds like you want a .45 acp. But you haven't found a whole lot to support that decision. You prefer a metal gun, but besides it being "legit"(which basically just means cool) there isn't a whole lot of reason to get one. You also want someone to tell you it's alright to get a smaller gun so that you can conceal it.

I think you could read your own post as if someone else posted it and make your own decision.

Here is my suggestion:

If you can rent these guns to try them, do so. Rent them and pick the one you like the best. If you can't rent them go to a gun store and hold them in your hand. Manipulate the controls, rack the slide, dry-fire it if you can, hold the weapon as if you are going to fire it. I have gone so far(with the clerks permission) to holster the weapon in a belly-band holster to see how it would feel while carrying. Then buy the one you like the best. Do not listen to the clerks opinion on the firearm.

Buy it knowing that you need to get at least some beginner training. Buy it knowing that it isn't perfect and that there are things with all firearms that are compromises. Buy it knowing that down the road you may discover that you would like something different.

You can conceal whatever. If you see Todd's blog picks he is concealing an hk45 under a polo shirt. And while I've never seen him in person he looks like a fairly average sized guy. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the higher in quality of holster that you pick the less you will likely need to alter your wardrobe. I dress around a USPc .45. But by dressing around I mean I buy pants that are in inch larger in the waist and shirts that are 1 size larger. I still wear t-shirts.

I replaced the finger extension on my magazines with a flat buttplate. I think I bought them off of midway for 6 bucks or something like that.

The only advice I will give as to specific firearms is that I would steer clear of the 1911. The 1911 is generally much easier to run well if you can act as your own gunsmith, which is something that new owners are not usually capable of doing. If you really want a 1911 get it as your second gun.

Joe in PNG
06-15-2011, 05:35 AM
My take on, um, Doc's take.

I have spent many hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on sucky guns. I've also sent thousands of rounds down range while re-enforcing various bad shooting habits- jerking my trigger, ect. My CCW class was a revelation- that not only did I know less than I thought I did, I had a whole lot of crap to unlearn and relearn. Not just mentally, but also in my muscle memory.

Ponder the average trip to the average range. How many crappy, unsafe shooters have you seen? How many targets look like they were used to pattern shotguns? How many myths and misconceptions (the old ‘drag them inside’ for instance) have you heard regarding self defense?

A post on a different website got me thinking- what would I do if I could start from the beginning… yet knowing what I know now? I would not get as hung up on equipment, and would try to focus more on building skills. I would have been better served with an old Model 10, a few good classes, and disciplined, purposeful practicing. Instead, I chased fads and fashions with different guns.

But that’s just my take on things.

Rains on Parades
06-15-2011, 05:49 AM
I totally understand where Doc is coming from. And I have had some of the same issues as you Joe(with regards to how I used to think vs how I think now).

But a handgun is not a drag car, a handgun is a pick-up truck. A drag car is a leisure activity, you hone your craft of both building and driving and before you get in one with that kind of power you had better be a damn good driver, or you could end up all over the tarmac. But if you never achieve that ability. So what, don't drive the car.

A pick up truck though... Well if you have to haul something, you better have a pick-up truck. Get the best training you can, be safe. But that stuff needs some hauling.

*edit*
You may have spent all that money and time on the wrong stuff practicing the wrong habits. But you had a gun. And maybe it's arguable whether if shit went down if you would have come out on top. But there are lots of folks out there that were not professional shooters that saved there own and others lives because they bought the gun.

JRas
06-15-2011, 10:28 AM
As to the OP's question:

I detect a want/need dichotomy going on in your post.

It sounds like you want a .45 acp. But you haven't found a whole lot to support that decision. You prefer a metal gun, but besides it being "legit"(which basically just means cool) there isn't a whole lot of reason to get one. You also want someone to tell you it's alright to get a smaller gun so that you can conceal it.

I think you could read your own post as if someone else posted it and make your own decision.

Here is my suggestion:

If you can rent these guns to try them, do so. Rent them and pick the one you like the best. If you can't rent them go to a gun store and hold them in your hand. Manipulate the controls, rack the slide, dry-fire it if you can, hold the weapon as if you are going to fire it. I have gone so far(with the clerks permission) to holster the weapon in a belly-band holster to see how it would feel while carrying. Then buy the one you like the best. Do not listen to the clerks opinion on the firearm.

Buy it knowing that you need to get at least some beginner training. Buy it knowing that it isn't perfect and that there are things with all firearms that are compromises. Buy it knowing that down the road you may discover that you would like something different.

You can conceal whatever. If you see Todd's blog picks he is concealing an hk45 under a polo shirt. And while I've never seen him in person he looks like a fairly average sized guy. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the higher in quality of holster that you pick the less you will likely need to alter your wardrobe. I dress around a USPc .45. But by dressing around I mean I buy pants that are in inch larger in the waist and shirts that are 1 size larger. I still wear t-shirts.

I replaced the finger extension on my magazines with a flat buttplate. I think I bought them off of midway for 6 bucks or something like that.

The only advice I will give as to specific firearms is that I would steer clear of the 1911. The 1911 is generally much easier to run well if you can act as your own gunsmith, which is something that new owners are not usually capable of doing. If you really want a 1911 get it as your second gun.

I like metal guns and I like polymer for different reasons ( strength, durability, weight ).

I do like the .45ACP, I like the bigger bullet but I understand that while it may be marginally better the 9mm can hold about twice the capacity and it's cheaper.

I've had a chance to shoot these guns at the range. I kinda get put in the same situation, not being able to decide :D

as for smaller gun, honestly I'd like to be able to conceal a full-size handgun comfortably. I like full size handguns. I hate how compact models feel in the hand. I know Todd has concealed an HK45 but he himself said it was big and not that "invisible" feeling like the P30. Everything I've read has told me the HK45 is really just too big for me to conceal just wearing a t-shirt. I'm not a big guy myself, smaller than Todd.

I kinda transitioned my full-size .45 "want" to the 1911, because it was a full-size weapon that people said it could be concealed fairly easy. If it was just as easy as the HK45, I would of bought the HK45 and not looked back.

I thought about the HK45C but even if I were to do the same as you and get a flat magazine baseplate it would make my grip hang off even more. it feels unproportional, normal slide with a small grip.. less than the P30..

I like the P30 because it feels proportional. I don't feel like I'm holding something too small to get a grip on. I like LEM, the idea of no safety's to interfere with my grip and if faced with a situation I wouldn't have to disable my safety like others. I think it would be easy to holster by keeping my thumb on the hammer making sure I'm not snagging as I went in. It would weigh less, have about double the capacity, and like said about 9mm is cheaper.

I feel like the 1911 would require more work, although it would be a good learning experience. I've got into things more because I had to work on them ( cars for example ). I don't want something unreliable but I don't see the 1911 as unreliable like some claim. I think it just requires more attention than other modern designs.

mnealtx
06-15-2011, 05:04 PM
I hear a lot of people say that but I've personally never seen 9mm half the price of .45ACP. I see a box of 50 9mm for about $15, and a box of 50 .45ACP for about $20. :confused:

An exemplar from ammotogo.com:

1000 rds 124grn FMJ Dynamit Nobel 9mm: $209

1000 rds 230grn FMJ Fiocchi .45: $380

Close enough to double to use as a general statement...

KevH
06-15-2011, 05:18 PM
Do you own any handguns or this going to be your first?

If it is your first, I would recommend a 9mm.

For the gun itself I would recommend a Glock 17 or 19.

Why 9mm? It's the cheapest acceptable defense round, it has the lightest recoil and it is just as effective in the right bullet as the the 40 S&W and 45 ACP under most circumstances.

Why Glock? In the last two decades the Glock has become more or less the universal handgun. Guys like Bill Go, Kyle Defoor, Kyle Lamb, Mike Pannone, Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn recommend 9mm Glocks for good reason...they work (with the exception of Todd's Gen4).

Jeff Carpenter has a decent little write up worth reading here:
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/why-glock-why-9mm

CCT125US
06-15-2011, 05:35 PM
To the OP:

You stated you have no real handgun experience other than friends guns. As an instructor, I highly suggest you pay for basic pistol training and if time, personal situation and funds allow, follow the advice of others and get more personal or one on one instruction. With that being said you do not have to be a Jedi master before you buy a gun and know it fits your hands or weather or not you can hit center mass at 7 yards. You also said that its intended purpose is home defense, CCW and hobby. IMO any firearm on your list would fit the bill (IF) you can conceal it. Ammo cost could be a factor and in my area of Ohio 9mm is indeed half the cost of .45 If money is not an issue then great, but what about magazine capacity and (your) ability to make accurate follow up shots? And lets not forget practice, how much trigger time can you get in with the different calibers before your performance suffers and you begin to fall into bad habits. Blasting paper is fun but make sure you have specific goals when you shoot so that you can measure performance and track improvement. And don't underestimate the value of dry fire practice. I have seen students learn more in 30 minutes from doing the ball and dummy drill than they have learned in years of self taught shooting. And now for my favorite phrase "Just because you have been doing something a certain way your entire life does not make it the most effective and efficient method of accomplishing the task"

jslaker
06-15-2011, 05:37 PM
I feel like the 1911 would require more work, although it would be a good learning experience. I've got into things more because I had to work on them ( cars for example ).

I've got a similar personality. I detail strip every gun I can get my hands on just to get a better feel for how they operate, and I've done my fair share of table top home gunsmithing. So I understand wanting to tinker, but I see a difference between working on guns because you find it enjoyable and working on them because you're forced to in order to get it running. It's the difference between the 60s hot rod you tweak on the weekends in the garage and the old econobox you're constantly maintaining just to get yourself to and from work.


I don't want something unreliable but I don't see the 1911 as unreliable like some claim. I think it just requires more attention than other modern designs.

If you haven't already, I'd highly suggest reading Todd's interview with Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn:

http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers

Keep in mind that LAV is one of the most sought-after 1911 pistolsmiths in the world while reading it.

ToddG
06-15-2011, 06:48 PM
DocGKR's advice was spot on. Get training. Until you learn how to run a gun, how can you decide what features you care about? How can you tell if the gun fits you if you don't know how you're going to be gripping it?

It boils down to this: no one ever sticks to just one gun if he is serious about shooting. It just doesn't happen. Hell, even Dave Sevigny shoots 1911s sometimes. So find something that works, that you can afford, and that you can afford to feed. Practice. Get training. Learn to shoot. Then in a year or two after you've put some ammo downrange, go back and reassess. Maybe you'll stick with what you've got. Maybe you'll give something else a try.

Obsessing over your first handgun, while perfectly natural, is a waste of effort. Candidly, you just don't know enough about what you want to decide what is going to be best. So instead of trying to find best, find good enough for now and put your focus on operation of the machine instead of the machine itself.

JeffJ
06-15-2011, 07:24 PM
As somebody relatively new to pistol shooting, Todd has it right on - you'll probably buy something else down the road - everything you're looking at should hold a good percentage of it's value so if you decide you hate it later you can sell or trade without taking too bad of a bath.

I'd go with whatever 9mm fits your budget best, get some instruction and then start shooting it - even better if you can shoot some IDPA or USPSA which will give you a feel of what is involved with shooting quickly and moving - that will influence how you feel about the gun as well.

In short - pick one and train with it, realize it may not be your forever gun and that's just the way it is. After-all: more guns = more fun

JRas
06-15-2011, 08:52 PM
Do you own any handguns or this going to be your first?

If it is your first, I would recommend a 9mm.

For the gun itself I would recommend a Glock 17 or 19.

Why 9mm? It's the cheapest acceptable defense round, it has the lightest recoil and it is just as effective in the right bullet as the the 40 S&W and 45 ACP under most circumstances.

Why Glock? In the last two decades the Glock has become more or less the universal handgun. Guys like Bill Go, Kyle Defoor, Kyle Lamb, Mike Pannone, Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn recommend 9mm Glocks for good reason...they work (with the exception of Todd's Gen4).

Jeff Carpenter has a decent little write up worth reading here:
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/why-glock-why-9mm

I like glock but I don't think it is a handgun I still stay with and I'm not the type of person to buy many. I'd prefer to buy once and keep. If I wanted striker fired, I'd get a M&P because I prefer it.


As somebody relatively new to pistol shooting, Todd has it right on - you'll probably buy something else down the road - everything you're looking at should hold a good percentage of it's value so if you decide you hate it later you can sell or trade without taking too bad of a bath.

I'd go with whatever 9mm fits your budget best, get some instruction and then start shooting it - even better if you can shoot some IDPA or USPSA which will give you a feel of what is involved with shooting quickly and moving - that will influence how you feel about the gun as well.

In short - pick one and train with it, realize it may not be your forever gun and that's just the way it is. After-all: more guns = more fun

true


DocGKR's advice was spot on. Get training. Until you learn how to run a gun, how can you decide what features you care about? How can you tell if the gun fits you if you don't know how you're going to be gripping it?

It boils down to this: no one ever sticks to just one gun if he is serious about shooting. It just doesn't happen. Hell, even Dave Sevigny shoots 1911s sometimes. So find something that works, that you can afford, and that you can afford to feed. Practice. Get training. Learn to shoot. Then in a year or two after you've put some ammo downrange, go back and reassess. Maybe you'll stick with what you've got. Maybe you'll give something else a try.

Obsessing over your first handgun, while perfectly natural, is a waste of effort. Candidly, you just don't know enough about what you want to decide what is going to be best. So instead of trying to find best, find good enough for now and put your focus on operation of the machine instead of the machine itself.

I'm like this for everything that I spend my money on. I'd prefer buy once and keep it

P30 LEM it is

LittleLebowski
06-15-2011, 10:20 PM
Pick whichever fits your hand and that you shoot the best. 9mm is cheaper than .45, but that shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Unless you shoot it, you'll never know how it actually fits your hand. Too many people make buying decisions based on how it feels at the gunshop and not how it actually shoots for them. 1911s feel great to me but I shoot Glocks better.

SecondsCount
06-15-2011, 11:25 PM
The P30 LEM is a good choice.

I like 1911's but they get expensive if you want assured reliability.

JV_
06-16-2011, 06:36 AM
Unless you shoot it, you'll never know how it actually fits your hand.Agreed. In-hand performance means a LOT more than how it "feels".

For me, ammo prices are a significant factor. I don't want my wallet to hold back my training; when it costs 2X as much for a .45 over 9mm, it's not even a choice. It's the difference between $500 / month and $1000 / month. One is barely doable, the other is out of the question.

EVP
06-16-2011, 01:59 PM
I just went from a Hk 45c LEM to a g19. I just updated a thread that I started about going to a 9 from a 45. I had been debating on going from a 45 to 9 for a couple of reasons. I found out that I shoot the g19 better then I shoot the Hk.

I would urge for you to consider a used pre2010 3rd g19 or g17. Back in the day I used to hate on glocks for no apparent reason besides the fact that people who did not even really shoot, owned glocks. As time progressed who knew that glocks would end up working for me. If you are interested in the m&p, shoot it next to a g19 and make your decision based on the fact that you shoot one better then the other and do what the people who have been down this road before recommend and stick with it.

For me I am done with switching guns because I have found the one that works best for me and has the things I want in a defensive handgun.

JRas
06-27-2011, 10:36 AM
I just went from a Hk 45c LEM to a g19. I just updated a thread that I started about going to a 9 from a 45. I had been debating on going from a 45 to 9 for a couple of reasons. I found out that I shoot the g19 better then I shoot the Hk.

I would urge for you to consider a used pre2010 3rd g19 or g17. Back in the day I used to hate on glocks for no apparent reason besides the fact that people who did not even really shoot, owned glocks. As time progressed who knew that glocks would end up working for me. If you are interested in the m&p, shoot it next to a g19 and make your decision based on the fact that you shoot one better then the other and do what the people who have been down this road before recommend and stick with it.

For me I am done with switching guns because I have found the one that works best for me and has the things I want in a defensive handgun.

I honestly like the simiplicity of the glock, just works

I just would prefer a hammer fired setup for ccw

I kept doing research ;-), What do you guys think of the Sig P220 Carry, either SRT or DAK?

SecondsCount
06-27-2011, 11:53 AM
I honestly like the simiplicity of the glock, just works

I just would prefer a hammer fired setup for ccw

I kept doing research ;-), What do you guys think of the Sig P220 Carry, either SRT or DAK?
I thought you had decided on the P30? What changed?

jslaker
06-27-2011, 12:24 PM
What do you guys think of the Sig P220 Carry, either SRT or DAK?
Good gun, a bit large for CCW in my opinion, and .45ACP meh.

Pistol Shooter
06-27-2011, 02:15 PM
I thought you had decided on the P30? What changed?

A 9mm P30 V3 would be an excellent choice to take to your training class/course.

JRas
06-27-2011, 03:03 PM
I thought you had decided on the P30? What changed?

I get bored, look at more options.

you guys said a 1911 would require much more maintaince to be reliable.

I looked for another option.

TAZ
06-27-2011, 06:30 PM
I had the same Idea as you; buy once-cry once. That was about a dozen or so guns ago. Honestly, the best advice comes from Todd. Find a police dealer near you and see if they sell trade ins to civilians. You should be able to find a good deal on a high holster time low round count G17 or G19. Take a few classes and shoot the crap out of the gun. Re-asses what are must haves and would be nices for your situation. Then trade the Glock on the gun that meets your new information based criteria. Trading in a $300 used Glock for a $100 credit on a new gun in a few months won't hurt as much as trading in a $1000 HK for a $400 credit. Sadly there is a VERY good chance that once you get some training and rounds down range you'll change your mind on what you like and dont like.

Shellback
06-27-2011, 06:40 PM
Find a police dealer near you and see if they sell trade ins to civilians.

Right in the Phoenix area, Mesa. http://www.glockmeister.com/GLOCK-19-Used-with-Night-Sights/productinfo/G19USEDB/

JHC
06-28-2011, 05:51 AM
I get bored, look at more options.

.

YIKES!!! Building SICK skill levels won't be boring. "Rambling boy why don't you settle down!!!!" :)

irishshooter
06-28-2011, 09:21 AM
I just went from a Hk 45c LEM to a g19.....Back in the day I used to hate on glocks for no apparent reason besides the fact that people who did not even really shoot, owned glocks. As time progressed who knew that glocks would end up working for me. If you are interested in the m&p, shoot it next to a g19 and make your decision based on the fact that you shoot one better then the other and do what the people who have been down this road before recommend and stick with it.
For me I am done with switching guns because I have found the one that works best for me and has the things I want in a defensive handgun.

Interesting, i recently had the same experience! Switched from an M&Pc to Glock 19 for same reasons. fit like a glove in my hand and shot just as well if not better than my m&pc. more so, i too used to "hate on Glocks" for the same exact reason, but got to run one recently and the end result was a Gen 4 Glock 19(no issues so far ;) ) To the OP, good luck, seems like you 've got a lot of options to mull over.

ubervic
06-30-2011, 06:46 PM
I just went from a Hk 45c LEM to a g19. I just updated a thread that I started about going to a 9 from a 45. I had been debating on going from a 45 to 9 for a couple of reasons. I found out that I shoot the g19 better then I shoot the Hk.

I respect your decision, and I'm glad to know that you are seeing better shooting results.

At the same time, I humbly wonder whether the 9mm caliber may be a better solution for you versus the 45c of the HK. In other words, are you certain that the Glock configuration alone, and not the caliber itself, has led to your greater shooting success over that of the HK45?

jslaker
06-30-2011, 07:01 PM
I respect your decision, and I'm glad to know that you are seeing better shooting results.

At the same time, I humbly wonder whether the 9mm caliber may be a better solution for you versus the 45c of the HK. In other words, are you certain that the Glock configuration alone, and not the caliber itself, has led to your greater shooting success over that of the HK45?

I just went from a USPc .40 to an M&P9 and my shooting has improved markedly in a short time. That said, the move was precipitated partially by the fact that I shoot 9mm better regardless of model whether it's an M&P or a Glock or a SIG P226 or a Beretta or whatever.

Comedian
06-30-2011, 08:18 PM
I just went from a USPc .40 to an M&P9 and my shooting has improved markedly in a short time. That said, the move was precipitated partially by the fact that I shoot 9mm better regardless of model whether it's an M&P or a Glock or a SIG P226 or a Beretta or whatever.

Same here. I have always shot better with 9mm, than 40.

EVP
07-01-2011, 11:05 AM
I respect your decision, and I'm glad to know that you are seeing better shooting results.

At the same time, I humbly wonder whether the 9mm caliber may be a better solution for you versus the 45c of the HK. In other words, are you certain that the Glock configuration alone, and not the caliber itself, has led to your greater shooting success over that of the HK45?

I think it is the whole combination of everything (shooter and hardwear) coming together instead of just a specific variable as in caliber. Also my reason for switching was not because I shot the g19 better, it was due to a number of different factors that are not related to shootability.

JonInWA
07-01-2011, 04:17 PM
You've gotten some excellent advice on this thread. If you need a gun now, either prior to or in conjunction with the training as suggested by others, I'd also suggest a Glock G17 or G19 (which ever you feel best and shoot best with). They're excellent guns to start out with-and you may well decide to stick with them.

Out of the other guns you're considering, after acquiring training/experience, if you decide to purchase another, I'd suggest the HK P30-but the devil in the details is deciding between 1) P30 or P30L, and 2) Which varient action (DA/SA or LEM) and which sub-varient...

As ToddG suggested, at this point you simply don't know what you don't know-and I'm not trying to be condescending or harsh. Better you wait, or minimize you're expenditures initially before spending around $1,000+ (because you're need to look at your total hardware system-gun, holster, magazines, magazine pouches, and suitable belt{s}) on something that might not be you're best choice for you...

Best, Jon

aboveandbeyond
07-01-2011, 09:03 PM
I would choose the M&P in a heartbeat

JRas
07-18-2011, 01:09 AM
I found an HK P30 LEM V2 used, guys asking for $750 with he said 200 rounds through it. Said he's missing the medium sidestraps but everything else is there.

What would you guys offer him?

Thanks

Comedian
07-18-2011, 01:25 AM
I found an HK P30 LEM V2 used, guys asking for $750 with he said 200 rounds through it. Said he's missing the medium sidestraps but everything else is there.

What would you guys offer him?

Thanks

I would offer $700.

virginiatactical
07-18-2011, 07:09 AM
I would choose the M&P in a heartbeat

+1 to the M&P I love the M&P platform, but we are not all created equal unlike what your mom told you. So the P30 or Glock might be more ergonomic to you.

I would also suggest a training course before making a decision. Shoot the instructor an email and see if you could use one of his guns. I know you don't live anywhere near me, but I have a buddy who runs beginner courses, and he always offers to use his own handguns. His assortment is insanly large, and has everything except the p30. Sign up for a beginner course, and email the instructor to see if he can lend the firearms you have narrowed down. Also keep in mind that firearms tend to keep a good amount of value after being sold. Especially if you buy a used one from an online forum or a FTF (if thats legal in your state). If you do buy that HK and you decide its not for you, then you could probably sell it and buy a glock 17. Rinse and Repeat. So don't get too hung up on whats the best gun.

JRas
07-24-2011, 11:34 AM
I would offer $700.

I missed out on it, he ended up selling it to another person :-(

I'm thinking about buying new, I just don't want to get ripped off at a gunstore. SGC has them for $950...

SecondsCount
07-24-2011, 12:13 PM
Check with CDNN (http://www.cdnninvestments.com/). They usually have some good deals going on HK pistols.

John Ralston
07-24-2011, 12:23 PM
I missed out on it, he ended up selling it to another person :-(

I'm thinking about buying new, I just don't want to get ripped off at a gunstore. SGC has them for $950...

I paid $850 in March for one NIB at the local HK dealer.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Josh Runkle
07-25-2011, 09:17 PM
For a beginner, I would ABSOLUTELY recommend a striker fired or double action only pistol. Something with a consistent trigger pull where you don't need to worry about switching off a safety. It wouldn't be a big deal if you train often and train in context...if you fire a few thousand rounds a month and that safety goes off at extension and goes on at retention...but, you are a beginner. There is no guarantee that you will continue shooting a few thousand rounds a month a few months from now.

It is very necessary to take training BEFORE purchasing a firearm. You will learn a lot of things that affect how you choose to carry. You may be thinking a 1911 is an excellent gun, and you may plan on shooting only 300 rounds a year through it and carrying it. But, when you go to a class somewhere and someone explains to you what the body does under stress, you may realize that it might be troublesome in a ccw scenario. I have seen many people who carry a gun professionally (meaning, as their profession, not meaning that they do it well) have problems functioning their safeties under relatively minor stress. This is only one small example, and while it probably won't affect the guy who trains in context (safety on, safety off, every time he's firing) and puts a LOT of rounds through the gun, how would you even know to do it unless someone teaches you to? You can't learn everything from books, movies and the internet. And...300 rounds a year might sound like a lot of ammo to a beginner, but 300 rounds may be called a "tuesday" to someone else.

You MUST get quality training and then have quality practice. Most of the practice suggestions you see on this website are for people who have already had quality training or for people teaching quality training. You will be wasting every round you put downrange before you get quality training. Sincerely: I have active and former law enforcement and military members come through class every month or two. Nearly all of them (with the exception of a few) were never even taught how to hold a firearm properly, let alone shoot it properly. Why WASTE money? Get some quality training and THEN go about making INFORMED decisions. A gun that feels good in your hand now may feel awkward when someone shows you how to hold it properly. A while back, I seriously already owned 25+ guns and had 6-7 years "experience" (which was crap) before someone showed me how to hold a gun properly. Everything I sent downrange before that was "funtime" but aside from that was a waste of time and money.

ubervic
07-26-2011, 05:00 AM
For a beginner, I would ABSOLUTELY recommend a striker fired or double action only pistol. Something with a consistent trigger pull where you don't need to worry about switching off a safety. It wouldn't be a big deal if you train often and train in context...if you fire a few thousand rounds a month and that safety goes off at extension and goes on at retention...but, you are a beginner. There is no guarantee that you will continue shooting a few thousand rounds a month a few months from now.

It is very necessary to take training BEFORE purchasing a firearm. You will learn a lot of things that affect how you choose to carry. You may be thinking a 1911 is an excellent gun, and you may plan on shooting only 300 rounds a year through it and carrying it. But, when you go to a class somewhere and someone explains to you what the body does under stress, you may realize that it might be troublesome in a ccw scenario. I have seen many people who carry a gun professionally (meaning, as their profession, not meaning that they do it well) have problems functioning their safeties under relatively minor stress. This is only one small example, and while it probably won't affect the guy who trains in context (safety on, safety off, every time he's firing) and puts a LOT of rounds through the gun, how would you even know to do it unless someone teaches you to? You can't learn everything from books, movies and the internet. And...300 rounds a year might sound like a lot of ammo to a beginner, but 300 rounds may be called a "tuesday" to someone else.

You MUST get quality training and then have quality practice. Most of the practice suggestions you see on this website are for people who have already had quality training or for people teaching quality training. You will be wasting every round you put downrange before you get quality training. Sincerely: I have active and former law enforcement and military members come through class every month or two. Nearly all of them (with the exception of a few) were never even taught how to hold a firearm properly, let alone shoot it properly. Why WASTE money? Get some quality training and THEN go about making INFORMED decisions. A gun that feels good in your hand now may feel awkward when someone shows you how to hold it properly. A while back, I seriously already owned 25+ guns and had 6-7 years "experience" (which was crap) before someone showed me how to hold a gun properly. Everything I sent downrange before that was "funtime" but aside from that was a waste of time and money.

Despite my over 25 years of firearms experience, I am a relative n00b when it comes to handguns, and yet I know that this is terrific advice.

Comedian
07-26-2011, 05:34 AM
Check with CDNN (http://www.cdnninvestments.com/). They usually have some good deals going on HK pistols.

Yes. CDNN has the best prices I've seen for HK's. I would also look for a like new, used P30.

JRas
07-27-2011, 06:45 AM
Yes. CDNN has the best prices I've seen for HK's. I would also look for a like new, used P30.

I was quoted $811, however they did not have any LEM and said they didn't plan on getting any in stock. He said all they had were V3

I found a local dealer for $823 + Tax, I'd rather support my state and a local gunshop.


For a beginner, I would ABSOLUTELY recommend a striker fired or double action only pistol. Something with a consistent trigger pull where you don't need to worry about switching off a safety. It wouldn't be a big deal if you train often and train in context...if you fire a few thousand rounds a month and that safety goes off at extension and goes on at retention...but, you are a beginner. There is no guarantee that you will continue shooting a few thousand rounds a month a few months from now.

It is very necessary to take training BEFORE purchasing a firearm. You will learn a lot of things that affect how you choose to carry. You may be thinking a 1911 is an excellent gun, and you may plan on shooting only 300 rounds a year through it and carrying it. But, when you go to a class somewhere and someone explains to you what the body does under stress, you may realize that it might be troublesome in a ccw scenario. I have seen many people who carry a gun professionally (meaning, as their profession, not meaning that they do it well) have problems functioning their safeties under relatively minor stress. This is only one small example, and while it probably won't affect the guy who trains in context (safety on, safety off, every time he's firing) and puts a LOT of rounds through the gun, how would you even know to do it unless someone teaches you to? You can't learn everything from books, movies and the internet. And...300 rounds a year might sound like a lot of ammo to a beginner, but 300 rounds may be called a "tuesday" to someone else.

You MUST get quality training and then have quality practice. Most of the practice suggestions you see on this website are for people who have already had quality training or for people teaching quality training. You will be wasting every round you put downrange before you get quality training. Sincerely: I have active and former law enforcement and military members come through class every month or two. Nearly all of them (with the exception of a few) were never even taught how to hold a firearm properly, let alone shoot it properly. Why WASTE money? Get some quality training and THEN go about making INFORMED decisions. A gun that feels good in your hand now may feel awkward when someone shows you how to hold it properly. A while back, I seriously already owned 25+ guns and had 6-7 years "experience" (which was crap) before someone showed me how to hold a gun properly. Everything I sent downrange before that was "funtime" but aside from that was a waste of time and money.

I'm getting the LEM variant, decided against the 1911 ( think it was more of a cool factor ). I decided .45ACP is not twice as good as 9mm vs the capacity of a 9mm.

I agree with your thoughts on safeties

I plan on practicing and learning properly with help from my a close friends dad who is proficient in my eyes. Don't you guys practice on your own out of classes? I've seen those class prices plus the required items ( ammo, holsters, and such.) sounds pretty expensive to me. I work six days a week.. don't really have the time to be honest. I'll likely be shooting on Sunday and every other Monday.

I'm all for watching a video on youtube for training and I would like to try some of these drills you guys run myself but I think that's about it.

Joe Chen
07-28-2011, 02:20 AM
Please take up golf.

JRas
07-28-2011, 03:04 AM
Please take up golf.

I've been playing since I was a kid. I'm stubborn

but It did work well for me in golf :)

Joe Chen
07-28-2011, 08:33 PM
I'm sorry you spent your youth on such a pointless game and supported a horrible waste of range space.

If you have aspirations of learning to shoot from youtube videos or watching someone of unknown shooting skill much less teaching skill, you are well on the path to self-delusion. You are spending waaay too much brain space on hardware and waaay too little on software. To put it in golf terms, you are beating up the latest Callaway or TaylorMade when you would be better served getting a set of used clubs and time with a <gasp> pro trainer.

Of course dedicated shooters practice on their own. There is a huge time and money (ammo) commitment to develop and maintain proficiency. But if you don't have proper instruction, all you will do is ingrain bad habits that a proper trainer will spend most of TD1 unscrewing. That is unless you never get good training and live in blissful ignorance of how awesome your self-honed skills are.

As for the costs involved, the gun itself is the cheapest part of the equation if you're doing it right. Buy a used Glock (or your beloved HK), mags, a decent holster and mag pouches, request the vacation time, sign up for a class, make travel arrangements, stock up on ammo and get ready to learn.

If you are looking at this like a hobby, stick with golf. In my opinion, shooting is the dumbest, most dangerous hobby in the world. You might as well take up bomb building in your living room or take your family shark diving.

A lot of us have gone down this path, have come full circle(s), and thankfully mentored friends.

LittleLebowski
07-28-2011, 08:45 PM
Whoops, missed the above on a mobile device. JRas, bad, bad, BAD plan. Please seek formal instruction. Joe's advice is spot on.

Also, golf is indeed a waste of range space and resources. Why military bases have golf courses, I have no idea.

Josh Runkle
07-28-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm getting the LEM variant, decided against the 1911 ( think it was more of a cool factor ). I decided .45ACP is not twice as good as 9mm vs the capacity of a 9mm.

I agree with your thoughts on safeties

I plan on practicing and learning properly with help from my a close friends dad who is proficient in my eyes. Don't you guys practice on your own out of classes? I've seen those class prices plus the required items ( ammo, holsters, and such.) sounds pretty expensive to me. I work six days a week.. don't really have the time to be honest. I'll likely be shooting on Sunday and every other Monday.

I'm all for watching a video on youtube for training and I would like to try some of these drills you guys run myself but I think that's about it.

I think you missed nearly all of my advice.

Yes. I try to live-fire practice once a week and dry-fire or practice reloads, press outs, malfunction clearing without any live ammo the rest of the week. I usually teach at least once a week, so, aside from the serious practice during the week, I fire a wide variety of guns 1-4 days a week, depending on the week. I try to take a few firearm classes as a student every year. Last year (2010) I logged 410 hours of classroom learning time in law enforcement/security/mil courses, 90 hours of learning time on the range, 330 hours of practice time on the range and almost 300 hours of teaching time between classroom and range. ALL of the practice time would be 100% worthless without going to learn from people who know how to do it much better than me.

Your buddy's dad is exactly the kind of person to avoid learning from. Who has he trained with? What is his background? Some of the worst shooters I see are guys with "years" of military experience. Some of the best shooters I have are little old ladies with no experience until they took a few classes and learned to do it right.

FORGET ABOUT BUYING A GUN FIRST! GO TAKE A CLASS OR TWO AND THEN BUY A CHEAPER GUN WHICH YOU WILL SHOOT INFINITELY BETTER!

Josh Runkle
07-28-2011, 09:42 PM
Also, golf is indeed a waste of range space and resources. Why military bases have golf courses, I have no idea.

Unconventional warfare. "Death from above" with golf balls.

New Basic Land Nav course. Forget about ranger beads, the enemy objective looks like a par 4.

Urban Forced March Field Exercise. (Only on saturday mornings when they have a lot of parties behind you)

JRas
07-29-2011, 01:26 AM
I enjoy golf, so it's not a waste of time or money for me.

I'll take your guys advice and do my best to seek out proper training.

Joe Chen
07-29-2011, 01:40 AM
You shouldn't have to seek very hard. There is a crap ton of good training in Arizona.

JeffJ
07-29-2011, 02:13 PM
I also enjoy golf - I find it suprisingly similar to shooting

Keep in mind that you don't need to take a 2 day super bad ass ninja course with a 1200 round count minimum, in fact that's probably a bad idea - one of my goals is to be able to shoot well enough to take AFHF and some of the other higher level courses that get discussed around here. They are expensive and for the most part are geared towards more advanced shooters.

Finding a one day or even a half day course that will help you develop good fundamentals and give you some training drills to work on is a great start. I'd imagine that you could find something like that at an affordable price - I did a class like that for around $50 and 250 rounds, it was pretty basic but I got a lot more out of that than I had by just practicing on my own.

Starting with good fundamentals taught by someone who knows how to teach not just how to shoo will let you progress faster and make the best out of your investment in training ammo.

Pennzoil
07-30-2011, 12:33 AM
You shouldn't have to seek very hard. There is a crap ton of good training in Arizona.

This.


We have a some great trainers in AZ that do reasonably priced 1 day pistols classes. I can think of two right away that I would take a class from tomorrow if my schedule was open and a class was available. I know a couple of people (few on this forum) that I've meet in classes who have attended a lot of training that could give you good recommendations on local classes they've attended and recommend once you get setup & serious.


Glockmeister is local and still has used Glock 19's with NS listed for sale on their website. You could probably get a used G19 and full setup with a 1 day class for close to the price of just the H&K pistol. If I didn't already have to many G19's I'd probably check these out myself. Between the makes I have experience with (M&P and Glock) it's a wash for me currently as I like/dislike both for different reasons but currently running the M&P fulltime.

JRas
07-31-2011, 02:58 PM
This.


We have a some great trainers in AZ that do reasonably priced 1 day pistols classes. I can think of two right away that I would take a class from tomorrow if my schedule was open and a class was available. I know a couple of people (few on this forum) that I've meet in classes who have attended a lot of training that could give you good recommendations on local classes they've attended and recommend once you get setup & serious.


Glockmeister is local and still has used Glock 19's with NS listed for sale on their website. You could probably get a used G19 and full setup with a 1 day class for close to the price of just the H&K pistol. If I didn't already have to many G19's I'd probably check these out myself. Between the makes I have experience with (M&P and Glock) it's a wash for me currently as I like/dislike both for different reasons but currently running the M&P fulltime.

I'm interested, how do you guys find these classes?

I ended up picking up a P30, I went out this morning and shot 300 rounds. It's great

I want to pick up a holster here soon.

JAD
07-31-2011, 09:26 PM
I'm interested, how do you guys find these classes?
.

The best are listed here:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/learning.htm

Two of these, Gunsite and Yavapai, are very local (though you'll have to break loose a full weekend for gunsite 150).

Bill Jeans of Morrigan Consulting is also failsafe: http://morr-con.com/

Pennzoil
08-01-2011, 03:11 AM
I'm interested, how do you guys find these classes?

I ended up picking up a P30, I went out this morning and shot 300 rounds. It's great

I want to pick up a holster here soon.

Congratulations on the new pistol.

For classes I usually check here (mostly out of state currently), m4carbine.net (training section for VSM (http://vickerstactical.com/larry-vickers-regional-endorsed-instructors/ ) & other classes) and arizonashooting.com. The one day classes seem to average somewhere around $125. For me I check AAR's to see if the class is working towards my goals before jumping in and ask people I've meet during classes who's opinions I respect.