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Thread: The Sanford Florida incident....

  1. #81
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed l View Post
    Had the shooter been investigating a suspicious sound outside, been jumped, and then shot the attacker it would have been an entirely different thing.
    That's exactly what Zimmerman is saying happened...
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  2. #82
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    The biggest red flag for me in the media's reporting... the only picture we have of Trayvon is when he was 13 years old?
    The police report lists him as 17 years old, 6' tall 160#, that's a full grown man.
    Where is a recent picture of Trayvon and why isn't the media plastering it on the front page?

    This story is nothing more than a liberal feeding frenzy.
    And it pisses me off to see otherwise intelligent people get suckered into buying their story line hook, line and sinker.
    Step back and try to view this with skeptical eyes.

    I'm not jumping on the Zimmerman bandwagon, but I'm damn sure not ready to lynch him based on the crappy reporting we've had so far.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    This is why I hate the "Can I shoot him now? How 'bout now? Now?" nonsense that occurs in the "Tactics" section of firearms forums, as shooters build elaborate scenarios in hopes of being given the green light to shoot the imagined perp. Left unchecked, it leads to mall ninjary such as this guy's.
    This. I've regularly argued against that kind of nonsense on mulitple firearms forums. Sadly, on many of them, that leads to the "voice of reson" side getting in trouble for pointing out that so many of the scenarios are mall ninjary (I like that phrase!). "Shoot only if you have to" isn't nearly as appealing to the masses as "shoot any time you can get away with it."
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
    This. I've regularly argued against that kind of nonsense on mulitple firearms forums. Sadly, on many of them, that leads to the "voice of reson" side getting in trouble for pointing out that so many of the scenarios are mall ninjary (I like that phrase!). "Shoot only if you have to" isn't nearly as appealing to the masses as "shoot any time you can get away with it."
    "You're just anti-second amendment and think people should just submit to criminals!!" - that's what you got on a lot of other forums, isn't it?

  5. #85
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    From what I've been reading, Zimmerman has lead a rather colorful life. Lots of smoke surrounding this fire.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  6. #86
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NETim View Post
    From what I've been reading, Zimmerman has lead a rather colorful life. Lots of smoke surrounding this fire.
    What have you read about Trayvon Martin?
    Early reports had him expelled from school for violence and sent to Sanford to "get his life straightened out".
    I haven't heard a single word about his background since then.
    Things that make you go hmmmmm...

    If you want instant sainthood, be a minority that is killed by a white devil.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  7. #87
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    What have you read about Trayvon Martin?
    Early reports had him expelled from school for violence and sent to Sanford to "get his life straightened out".
    I haven't heard a single word about his background since then.
    Things that make you go hmmmmm...

    If you want instant sainthood, be a minority that is killed by a white devil.
    I haven't heard a thing about Martin, other than his age, sex and race.

    Zimmerman apparently has a history of domestic violence complete with restraining orders. Assault on an undercover LEO where the charges were dropped. (Dad was magistrate, which may have helped.)

    Doesn't sound like either were angels.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  8. #88
    I think it's rather disingenous that the only pictures they're showing of Martin look like they were taken when he was 14. Maybe he just looks young...

    Everyone's talking about him being a young athlete so I don't understand why he didn't out run the fat ass Zimmerman? Unless he wasn't trying to get away...

  9. #89
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
    This. I've regularly argued against that kind of nonsense on mulitple firearms forums. Sadly, on many of them, that leads to the "voice of reson" side getting in trouble for pointing out that so many of the scenarios are mall ninjary (I like that phrase!). "Shoot only if you have to" isn't nearly as appealing to the masses as "shoot any time you can get away with it."
    One of the more frightening aspects of my first CCW course (the first 'public' training course I'd ever taken) was the trio of local community college students who kept asking the instructor "So when can I pop a cap in someone's @$$?". People like that tend to give the rest of us a bad name.

    I'm also annoyed by the media's second-guessing of the Stand Your Ground law. IF Zimmerman did chase down Martin, initiated physical contact, and shot him when things started going against him, then it wasn't self-defense, at least by the standards of my locality, regardless of any Stand Your Ground-style laws. Even if he tried to disengage and Martin chased him, it was stupid to get out and go after him in the first place. Remember, the SYG law also applied to Martin. He had no duty to retreat either. All in all, this is a good example of why you should leave policing to the cops, and concentrate on self-defense rather than going looking for trouble.

    And yeah, the media is certainly on Martin's side, which is typical, but I would like to see both participants' criminal records.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by ed l View Post
    Had the shooter been investigating a suspicious sound outside, been jumped, and then shot the attacker it would have been an entirely different thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    That's exactly what Zimmerman is saying happened...
    That's not at all what happened. Zimmerman was not on his own property and stepped outside to investigate a suspicious sound.

    Zimmerman was driving around under the auspices of neighborhood watch, spotted someone he deemed to be suspicious, called it in to the police, and then against the directions of the dispatcher, left the safety of his car. Had he not left the safety of his car, he would never have gotten into the situation that led to the shooting.

    I agree that there are things not being mentioned or are being minimized--like the youth's background of violence, grassstains on the back of Zimmerman along with Zimmerman's bloody face. The pictures of the youth make him look like a child when in fact he was over 6 feet tall, etc.

    I'm concerned with avoiding getting into a questionable shooting or questionable situation when possible.

    Leaving the safety of your house (or car) when no one's life was in danger is another common element we see in questionable shootings. It all depends on the circumstances and the laws and legal environment where you live.

    There are numerous cases that illustrate this, where had the shooter not left the safety of his house/car, the shooting would not have occurred and the shooter's life would have been much better without the financial damages or the emotional turmoil brought on by the threat of going to prison.

    Mitchel ESq posted about some Lawyer in AZ who pulled over to have a 'discussion' with someoen who was tailgating him and wound up shooting and killing the guy because he claimed that the man grabbed him by the throat while he was still in the car. Had the lawyer not pulled over, the incident would not have happened, or at least not happened under circumstances that make it appear that the lawyer was a willing participant. It was later revealled that the lawyer had a history of such things. Not a good position to be in.

    There was the famous case of someone in Louisianna who left the safety of his house and shot a Japanese exchange student who approached him who he believed was a burglar. It turned out the Japanese exchange student was going to a Halloween party and had the wrong house and had knocked on one door to the house and went around to knock on another door. The man held the gun at the Japanese student and ordered him to halt; while the Japanese student continued to advance--eithe rbecause he didn't understand or thought it was a joke. The homeowner wound up shooting him and going on trial for murder. Had he not left the safety of his locked house, the shooting would not have occurred. It undercuts your argument that you were in fear of your life when you leave the safety of your locked home to confront someone who isn't a direct threat to you or anyone else.

    Google the Roderick Scott Trial. A black man in upstate NY called 911 to report that teenagers were breaking into cars on his street. After being informed by the 911 operator that the police could not be there for at least a half hour, he went outside with his licensed handgun to confront them (I believe there were three whites in their late teens). One of them rushed him and he wound up shooting the teen 2-3 times, killing him. If I remember correctly one of the rounds hit the teen in the side as he was turning away--as one might expect in a fast moving situation. The end result; the shooter went on trial for manslaughter and was found not guilty. Central to the case was the fact that he left the safety of his house to confront someone, without which the situation would not have occurred.

    Look at the Joe Horn shooting in TX, where against the directions of the 911 Operator, Joe Horn, the homeowner, left the safety of his house to confront two people who had broken into his neighbor's home and were escaping. He wound up shooting and killing both of them. The matter went to the Grand Jury and the shooter barely missed going on trial.

    It ultimately depends on the specifics of the situation, the laws, and the legal environment where the shooting occurs. But leaving the safety of your car/home to confront someone who otherwise isn't a threat is a common denominator.

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