WMLs are Useless on CCW Pistols

[Chuck Whitlock]

On this forum, there's three characteristics we advocate/practice that differentiate it from other forums: being a thinking shooter, a responsible shooter, and a capable shooter. We're supposedly all about making objective decisions to pursue these three facets to the fullest, so I don't understand why there are such dismissive attitudes towards using a tool that allows you to gather/process more information when it comes to taking someone's life.

My goal was to point out something that I feel should be considered best practice. I'm sorry if that came across as calling you irresponsible.

This thread, and several others, have explored the pros and cons of WMLs. It is clear to me that WMLs cannot be considered "best practices" for civilian CCW. I've invested a lot of time and money buying WMLs and new holsters, and learning how to use WMLs in defensive scenarios. After all that, I've decided not to use one because for me the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

The WML to my mind exists when I'm operating behind the initiative curve. In the WML scenario, I'm drawing my gun in reaction to something that has already happened. Whether it's a reaction to violence, pre fight indicators, or something else doesn't really matter. I'm behind the 8-ball, and what the WML does is allows me to get more information about what's happening so that I can make an informed decision on whether or not I need to shoot. I have a pretty fast draw, but a lot can change in 1.2 seconds, including whether or not I'm justified to shoot a person. It can't hurt that situation to shine 1200 lumens at it.

Which brings me to my point: I don't think they're necessary for a CCW pistol, and as I've said I don't carry one at all times. But I don't have to stretch my mind even a little to find a scenario where I'd want one.

As always, context matters, and YMMMV.

For myself, my experience was on-duty use of TLR1s ad X300s in conjunction with Gen3 Glocks. I went to the WML for all of the above valid reasons. I ditched them because, for ME and MY hand size/weapon interface, it just didn't work out. My digits were too short to easily access the switches on the light bodies, so it would only be useful with a grip switch. The SL Contour switch for the TLR1 completely interfered with my grip on the pistol. The SF DG switch was much better in that regard, but still had minor issues. In addition, the rubber coating on the unit would get rubbed/peeled of after several draws and holsterings. I wound up dumping the WML, even for duty use. I am not opposed to the concept but it will need to work for ME. I'd love to try out something like a CT Railmaster pro with the switch on the frontstrap, but it isn't out there yet.

[HCountyGuy]

Sure, but that all goes back to what-ifs. Do you know that it won’t be necessary in your next defensive shooting? Do you know that the fact that it was dark won’t be used in court against you? Even if it’s not necessary, do you know that it won’t be helpful?

Probably not, so you have to base your decision off how comfortable you are with not knowing the future vs how much you’re giving up by having one. IME, I haven’t had to give up that much but could be gaining quite a bit. It’s not like it causes malfunctions or you have to employ it every time you shoot. The point is that it’s there if you need it. If not, it’s a little bit of extra weight out front, which some people think helps mitigate recoil. Que terible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What goes back to “what-ifs”? Plentiful evidence that a WML hasn’t been necessary in a civilian defensive shooting during a street crime? I think that’s considered a CLUE.

I could game up plenty of scenarios where a WML would be necessary during a street robbery, but do those scenarios really align with how this stuff unfolds? Once again, we have evidence to suggest the answer is “no”.

I’m content to agree to disagree at this point, as the arguments have gotten rather repetitive.

In the end if an individual has assessed it’s to their benefit to run a WML or not, their choice.

[Joe in PNG]

What goes back to “what-ifs”? Plentiful evidence that a WML hasn’t been necessary in a civilian defensive shooting during a street crime? I think that’s considered a CLUE.

I could game up plenty of scenarios where a WML would be necessary during a street robbery, but do those scenarios really align with how this stuff unfolds? Once again, we have evidence to suggest the answer is “no”.

I’m content to agree to disagree at this point, as the arguments have gotten rather repetitive.

In the end if an individual has assessed it’s to their benefit to run a WML or not, their choice.

It also becomes one more extra thing on the Sheepdog Essentials Not Get Kilt On Da Streetz List.

Is it a good thing to have? Sure. But is it adding to the already heavy load of gear one HAS to have with them along with other things that are "essential", like two extra mags, backup gun, TQ, folding knife, fixed knife, leatherman tool, handheld light, trauma kit, kubotan, tactical pen, pepper spray, bat shark repellent- not to mention the stuff needed for normal life like wallet, keys, & phone.

And yes, these things are very useful to have in the case of specific emergencies- and some people do honestly like walking around with Batman levels of gear. But, at some point, all this stuff can become very inconvenient to the normal exercise of daily life. As the old saying goes, "the perfect is the enemy of the possible".

We can game out odds and scenarios all day- and that's often done to justify what we already want to do in the first place. But you can't every seriously prepare for every possible single bad thing that may come your way (attacks done with armored vehicles are not totally unheard of after all, but you can't legally carry a LAWS rocket in your trunk).
So people have to assess their own situations, and the risk they are willing to take. It's interesting that some very well trained and switched on people here actually go outside their houses with nothing more than a 5 shot revolver!

[TGS]

It also becomes one more extra thing on the Sheepdog Essentials Not Get Kilt On Da Streetz List.

Is it a good thing to have? Sure. But is it adding to the already heavy load of gear one HAS to have with them along with other things that are "essential", like two extra mags, backup gun, TQ, folding knife, fixed knife, leatherman tool, handheld light, trauma kit, kubotan, tactical pen, pepper spray, bat shark repellent- not to mention the stuff needed for normal life like wallet, keys, & phone.

And yes, these things are very useful to have in the case of specific emergencies- and some people do honestly like walking around with Batman levels of gear. But, at some point, all this stuff can become very inconvenient to the normal exercise of daily life. As the old saying goes, "the perfect is the enemy of the possible".

We can game out odds and scenarios all day- and that's often done to justify what we already want to do in the first place. But you can't every seriously prepare for every possible single bad thing that may come your way (attacks done with armored vehicles are not totally unheard of after all, but you can't legally carry a LAWS rocket in your trunk).
So people have to assess their own situations, and the risk they are willing to take. It's interesting that some very well trained and switched on people here actually go outside their houses with nothing more than a 5 shot revolver!

Well, that's where the concept of best practices comes into play. It's a sliding scale. Regardless of your continued insistence on making this out to be a binary argument, it's not, and I don't appreciate you continually portraying my/our side of the lens as "YUR GUNNA GET KILT IN DA STREETZ!!!1"

[Mr_White]

A lot of the things that have been talked about in this thread are matters of personal preference and I'm good with that.

A WML has been characterized by some in the thread as unlikely to be needed, but possibly beneficial. I'm good with that and I agree. I'd personally characterize a handheld light as mandatory, and a WML on a pistol as optional. In fairness to proponents of WMLs, a lot of my own gear and skills and tactical preparations are no different - unlikely to be needed, but possibly beneficial. The data strongly suggest that a WML, as well as many other things I am more a proponent of, such as a handheld light, are unlikely to be needed in the private citizen defensive context.

I get that there are professional roles and specific private citizen contexts where the WML might be the primary light source for ID and assessment, most particularly when using a long gun. I agree that more information is better. However, as a grossly broad statement: feeling generically afraid and pointing a gun/light combo at a person, thus threatening them with deadly force, in order to use the light to discover whether they should have deadly force threatened or used against them, is out of order.

It is often a moot point - as BBIs has pointed out, behavioral elements (the J in AOJ) frequently clarify other elements that may be somewhat more ambiguous or difficult to observe (the A in AOJ as it applies to identifying an object.) But to the extent that clarifying contextual elements are absent and ID/assessment may hinge on the visual identification of an object, we should not be threatening deadly force prior to being able to specifically articulate the need/justification for doing so. There needs to be more than 'I was afraid and he could have had a weapon', etc. We need to gather the information to change that type of statement of bare fear into an articulation of the specific elements that led us to believe that our deadly force response is reasonable, PRIOR to threatening or using deadly force.

[TGS]

Seeing specific details are not the only inputs that a person can use to articulate OAJ. Someone indicating via speech that they possess an instrument capable of lethal force and are going to use it against you, especially in a manner capable of causing grievous bodily harm, is a valid input from which to derive OAJ in combination of other factors such as seeing the dark figure within distance to use said instrument. Add a gross motion to that consistent with a pre-attack indicators (furtive movement; raising arm, crouching, whatever) really cements your articulation.

Given the above, a person has articulated OAJ. You shoot an individual, because you've articulated OAJ and are fearful that the individual is close enough that you need to put rounds on meat, accurately and as quickly as possible, so you do it two-handed, because that's what make's sense. Pulling out your flashlight in this situation does not make sense unless you like the idea of catching a knife in the taint, or a pipe to the dome, and I don't give a shit what anyone on the internet claims.....you're not practicing enough with your hand-held light from concealment that it's going to be your default reaction when your brain says shoot, you can make out the shape of the target well enough to make hits, and be able to do it anywhere near as rapidly as using two-hands.

What makes sense is pulling out your WML equipped pistol and illuminating the target. But you don't have a WML, so you just shot what turns out to be a stupid kid pulling a prank on someone that he thought was a friend, or even just a random passer-by. If you had a WML, that likely would not have happened.

__________________________

I've done judgmental shooting in the dark, not just target shooting. It was readily apparent to me that I could make out a figure enough to assault or be assaulted, yet I wasn't able to see the specific features of the target (such as what the target was holding). It's very possible that your attacker could be in a darker spot than you (gee, not like bad actors have a habit of hiding in dark spots) and using ambient light from around the corner to identify not just that you are there, but also your specific features for target selection/de-selection (small framed person, older person, woman, what types of shoes you're wearing, etc). The victim might even be illuminating themselves further with a cell-phone.

None of that is evidence that the attacker is illuminated enough to make out specific features, and none of that is evidence that you cannot articulate OAJ.

[10mmfanboy]

I carry a wml almost every day as a civilian. With the size of the lights nowadays its not really a hassle anymore. My needs are more basic, popping coyotes and armadillo, extra muzzle weight and backup battery holder for my flashlight.

[Joe in PNG]

Funny enough, I just went ahead and ordered a CT Lightguard for my Shield.

[SoCalDep]

You do you and all that... I don’t carry a WML- equipped pistol all the time, so I get priorities.

At the same time, I see lots of “gotta have a hand-held” while at the same time “WML is useless because...”

Dark is dark. You can see or you can’t. Vision... which includes aiming a frickn gun and knowing what you are shooting at... at the time you are shooting at it... is sorta important. Lots of videos show how well hand held lights get used in gunfights.

If you carry a light and say a WML is useless you are stupid or ignorant or you have super-human vision or you EDC NVGs.

I don’t carry a gun because a gunfight is likely. I don’t carry a trauma kit because I’m likely to get shot. If those unlikely things happen, my day sucks and I could give a single pellet poop what someone else thinks about statistics or odds. I know me and my requirements and I know what tools I want at my disposal. I also know what I’m willing to sacrifice for weight, comfort, carrying a 108 year old gun design because I like it so there, and on and on. It doesn’t change physiology and performance, nor does it change environmental conditions. I don’t get to pick the gunfight so while I will sacrifice and throw the dice, I won’t pretend I’m as prepared as I can be.

... and I’m shopping for a 108 year old design carry gun with a rail for a WML because it’s America and what better reason to get another gun.

[Hambo]

Which brings me to my point: I don't think they're necessary for a CCW pistol, and as I've said I don't carry one at all times. But I don't have to stretch my mind even a little to find a scenario where I'd want one.

If the point of this thread is to argue absolutes, you've done a piss poor job.

All things being equal I'd have a WML on everything including my carry gun. All things are not equal, so I don't have one on my carry gun. I do have a handheld on me at all times, and because I grew up in the Jurassic period I'm OK with that.