1911's, I dont get it.

[Tinygnat219]

I get it, I sometimes carry one, but rarely. I find that the Glock 19 / 17 series of pistols is just fine for my everyday needs. Still, I have found the 1911 can be a fun thing to have.

Here's my "moped" 1911 in 9MM. It's a Rock Island Tactical model with the Novak Style sight dovetails, skeletonized hammer, blah blah. It's basically called the "moped" for the same reason as one would have a moped for: having fun until someone saw you riding one. The only thing I have added are the Rick Hinderer 1911 GP10 grips. They are MUCH improved over the wooden stocks that come with the Rock Island. This is strictly a range toy for when I want to shoot something slick and light. It doesn't eat hollowpoints very well, but it'll shoot Wolf 9MM 115 grain FMJ all day.



Here is my "classic" Officer's ACP 1911. It's a beauty that hasn't been shot yet. I have the original factory box for this one as well. It will be shot at the range, but not carried. There are inherent design issues with the Officer sized 1911s that simply don't do well and I've seen too many of these fail to recommend the design, no matter who they are from.



Last but not least is what I consider the answer to what I consider the limitations of the 1911 design (weight, and capacity). This is the Kimber BP10 Polymer double stack 1911. It takes 10 or 13 round double stack magazines, is light, and laser accurate when I do my part (doncha just HATE that gunhack phrase?)

[10mm]

I would carry my 10mm RZ-10 or my Kimber 45acp and not worry about anything.They both shoot 1 1/2 or better at 25 yards and run flawless.I wish I could afford a nighthawk 10mm.Not that my lower priced 1911 won't work,they ran fine from the beginning.Just would like to have one that is super tight and refined.

[JAD]

I have to agree. What it's made of shouldn't determine its value. Capability determines value.

Not to disagree too much, but perceived capability determines value. An Heirloom 1911 is not five times as capable as a P30; but there are lots of people who pay $4500 for an Heirloom. Substitute 'IWC' and 'Timex' if you like.

And your proof -- that HKs must cost more because they don't discount them as far, even if it costs them business -- is a good one but not flawless. There are margin chances that I in my professional capacity take when I'm starting a program that my German competitors simply won't do, and at the same time I get pounded into the SAND by my Korean buddies. The Koreans, and I, sometimes wind up living skinny when things don't go exactly as we'd hoped; nothing like praying your customer makes a design rev and drops you from the project.

[ToddG]

Not to disagree too much, but perceived capability determines value. An Heirloom 1911 is not five times as capable as a P30; but there are lots of people who pay $4500 for an Heirloom. Substitute 'IWC' and 'Timex' if you like.

I think both analogies are flawed in the context of the disagreement which was whether frame material should determine value.

I cannot speak for Jason, but I don't think he'd say you're paying for an Heirloom 1911 because you want it to be more reliable than a P30. There are a lot of other factors that make one of his guns worth many times more a P30, and for people who value those factors, his guns are worth every penny. If they just wanted the cheapest gun that would be acceptably accurate and acceptably reliable, $4-5k isn't what they'd be spending.

Ditto the IWC/Timex thing: in many cases and for many people, the Timex will work better, longer, with less hassle. People who get the IWC aren't doing it because they want the most accurate, durable timepiece known to man. They're buying it because they want an accurate, durable high end watch. I've never met a WIS who thinks his Rolex/Omega/IWC/Panerai or whatever is better for simply keeping time than a G-shock. But the WIS wants something different (or more) than just simply keeping time.

[Joe in PNG]

As a bass guitar player, I can get:
-A Squire Jazz Bass for about $250
-A Fender Standard Jazz for about $800
-A Fender Custom Shop Jazz bass for around $2,000
-A Vintage 60's Jazz for $6,000
or even a new Alembic Series II for $20,000...

And, truth be told, there is little difference in sound between the lot of them... but there is something about a custom or vintage...

[ToddG]

And I totally get that. Wanting something for more than its performance capability is fine.

[SecondsCount]

And I totally get that. Wanting something for more than its performance capability is fine.

OK, I want to know who the 1911 fanboy is who captured our Todd and signed in using his credentials?

First the test gun choice and now this statement.

Where is LittleLebowski? We need him to set this straight before it gets out of hand.

[Tamara]

Another thing to consider when it comes to HKs compared to other plastic guns is that in a SFA weapon like the Glock, your connector, disconnector, sear, etc are essentially combined into a couple of stamped steel parts. On the HKs, you're talking about a half-dozen separate parts, most of which are machined. They may both be wrapped by a plastic frame, but the HKs scream a more complicated, difficult-to-manufacture design.

Actually, HK is a pioneer of using stampings in firearms manufacturing. On the old traditional roller-locked HK longarms, the entire fricking receiver was a welded stamping, which is why the G3 can be built under license in countries whose local industrial base barely supports a thriving cookware industry.

There are a lot of hidden costs behind just saying a part is "stamped" or "MIM" or what-have-you. For instance, where was it stamped? In house, on your own stamping machines, from steel stock that you bought specifically because it was optimal for that part? Or was it stamped by Dixie Joe's Greasy Bar & Grill And Part Time Machine Shop, who offered you a better cost-per-thousand bid than the company from whom you bought the last batch?

[ToddG]

OK, I want to know who the 1911 fanboy is who captured our Todd and signed in using his credentials?

I am far from a 1911 fanboy, but when someone starts talking about expensive watches that don't tell time as well as a $25 Casio, I'm as guilty as the next guy.

My main gripe with the 1911 has always been simple: they're substantially more expensive for a given level of performance and require far more knowledge and TLC to keep at that level of performance.

They're also beautiful, incredibly customizable, and shootable. They have a storied history. But too many people want to believe -- and are willing to convince themselves -- that a Glock-priced 1911 is just as good as that Springfield Custom, Wilson, or Les Baer. And I've seen guns from all of those companies have problems in classes.

[NickA]

OK, I want to know who the 1911 fanboy is who captured our Todd and signed in using his credentials?

First the test gun choice and now this statement.

Where is LittleLebowski? We need him to set this straight before it gets out of hand.

If the first action shots in the test show a Timex on his wrist, we're going to have to contact the authorities.


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