Best Tactic For This Situation

[BigT]

Thank you.

Great suggestions for practice. We have been practicing verbal distraction in Krav...when they are thinking about what I am saying, it can buy time. I have designed a drill for myself that is 2 to the head while moving in the direction to put the closer target between me and the other target. Then 4 to the back target.

The second string of the drill is sidestep, 2 body, 2 body, then head, head.

Thanks, again.
Cody

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The problem is when you're thinking about what to say you're buying them time.

Verbal distraction may be very useful in MUC but if it's gone beyond that to a real fight then to quote Tuco " when you're going to shoot, shoot don't talk"

Trying to be clever verbally is going to slow your response down dramatically. And unless you've done this plenty I fear you may not be capable at all. I know I'm not. My last one started with me shouting JESUS FUCK! as I drew. Not in an attempt to distract anyone but rather in the manner you swear when you stub your toe.


If you haven't done ECQC then go book for one right now.


You you seem to be trying to build a defensive response in a drill to an imaginary fight. I wouldn't want to be building a reflexive response that intricate to such a specific set up. Build skills of course but that's a pretty specific dance you've got going there.

[BaiHu]

I second the above response. Putting yourself through different scenarios is good practice, but practicing the same scenario over and over again can be a bit counter productive. Maybe counter productive is a bit harsh, but this is how I see it if I were taking Mr White's advice.

1) can you make a head shot at 3, 5 or 7 yds? If not, then make that happen first.
2) can you do it from concealment? If not, then make that happen.
3) can you do it from concealment under ever decreasing par times until you feel like you've rung your skill set to max efficiency? If not, then make that happen.
4) wash and repeat the above on the move in different directions.

The beauty of FOF or ECQC is that the variables are always changing. It's more important that you keep the variables changing in order to find your limitations than it is to find a single variable and play it out over and over again. UNLESS you find a particular limitation that requires a new skill set (verbalization, first aid, grappling, striking, better awareness, reloads, etc).

I think this is why many people are having trouble taking this too seriously.

To quote Trump, "I'm just going to do it." Will doesn't always beat skill, but the people above, who have been more general, are trying to drive that thought home to you. All the best plans go to hell once you hit the battlefield.

At least that's my best guess about what's happening in this thread.

[cclaxton]

Thanks for great replies. Will be joining Jiu-jitsu soon at my Krav dojo. Once I have some months into that, I will be ready for ECQC.

One of the things I like about verbal distraction is it also gives me time to evaluate. You are right that I may not have that chance.

But I do think that overlearning certain skills, such as sidestepping and drawing for head shots is a benefit. I don't want to have to think about a shooting solution during a fight, I want it to come automatically, and only when necessary. There are a lot more situations where Krav applies and drawing a gun would be slower and less effective.

I was fighting a guy at Krav last night who was taller, younger, stronger and faster. If I don't disable him with a groin kick or a solid elbow, he will put my lights out in no time. I may elect to draw on a guy like that who is attacking me. (I am 5'9", 190lbs, 60yo)

The situation will certainly dictate the response.
Cody





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[KevinB]

Always spit dip into someone face

Seriously do not discount spitting into the eyes/face - it can distract/disorient especially with a substance like dip that will also burn the eyes.

The only fair fight is the ones you win, anything to win is totally fair in a encounter like this.

[orionz06]

Thanks for great replies. Will be joining Jiu-jitsu soon at my Krav dojo. Once I have some months into that, I will be ready for ECQC.

You carry a gun, you're ready now. This is about the same as saying you're gonna start your diet tomorrow. Sign up now, you'll have plenty of time until the class.

One of the things I like about verbal distraction is it also gives me time to evaluate. You are right that I may not have that chance.

Good verbal distraction can. It's a skill that needs trained as well though. Poor verbal responses may just delay you. Gotta find a way to try it. The issue with the premise in the OP is just a really shitty situation that really stacks the odds against the good guy. Surely we want to train for that but this ain't the movies, not sure how you talk your way out of two guns drawn on you. As suggested previously you could use movement to briefly eliminate one of the guns on you by stacking them, especially since the scenario outlined had them close to stacked to begin with.

That said... This is something that can be set up and tested with resisting opponents.



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[Mr_White]

The problem is when you're thinking about what to say you're buying them time.

Verbal distraction may be very useful in MUC but if it's gone beyond that to a real fight then to quote Tuco " when you're going to shoot, shoot don't talk"

Trying to be clever verbally is going to slow your response down dramatically. And unless you've done this plenty I fear you may not be capable at all. I know I'm not. My last one started with me shouting JESUS FUCK! as I drew. Not in an attempt to distract anyone but rather in the manner you swear when you stub your toe.

Those are very fair points. There can be friction trying to transition from talking to shooting/action. The friction can be reduced by practicing that transition. Whatever is going to be said needs to be practiced too. I agree that if a person is trying to invent clever things to say in a time of intense tension and danger, that might slow them down. Practicing can help reduce that too.

[BigT]

Those are very fair points. There can be friction trying to transition from talking to shooting/action. The friction can be reduced by practicing that transition. Whatever is going to be said needs to be practiced too. I agree that if a person is trying to invent clever things to say in a time of intense tension and danger, that might slow them down. Practicing can help reduce that too.

My experience and that of most I've questioned has been that in almost all civilian events when the gun gets drawn one of two things happen. Bad guy runs away or we shoot (at) him. Maybe it's different over there but here I'm not seeing civilians holding bad guys at gunpoint except so rarely to be far outliers. Time spent learning to verbalize post MUC just strikes me as time that could be better focused on skills more likely to be useful.

My my understanding is Cody want to say something off putting while drawing. If getting a gun in play isn't sufficiently off putting I doubt what I say will have much effect. There are , in my opinion, more important things for anyone to be focusing on when things become a fight.

I'm all for proper verbal skill while MUCing. Just not when shooting.


Cody dude you will never really be ready for ECQC. You go, you get through it, and you (to use an overused expression) have your paradigm shifted.

[Cecil Burch]

Thanks for great replies. Will be joining Jiu-jitsu soon at my Krav dojo. Once I have some months into that, I will be ready for ECQC.

A couple of items:

1) Unless the BJJ you plan on taking at your Krav gym is taught as a separate class and is taught by a legit BJJ instructor who is at the very, very least a purple belt with more than 5 years in, I would stay away. Most "BJJ" taught in KM gyms as part of their curriculum is superficial at the least, and at worst, completely wrong.

2) As Big T mentioned, you are NEVER ready for ECQC. When I had my first taste of it, I was a brown belt in BJJ and was coming off winning my second straight National Championship. Also, my clinch and boxing skills were noticeably higher than anyone else there. And I still got humiliated for the first few hours. It is irrelevant where you are in your development - the beauty of Craig's coursework is that you fill find the holes in your game. Period. So you are better off just going as soon as possible and stop thinking you are "ready". I guarantee if you think you are truly prepared, you may have a harder mental time accepting what comes later.

[Byron]

I agree with Tom, BigT, and Cecil: ECQC isn't really great to "prep" for. It's not as if it's a standardized test with repeatable scores: really weird shit happens. Just as much as anything, that's a huge part of the learning experience.

I guarantee if you think you are truly prepared, you may have a harder mental time accepting what comes later.

I think this is particularly insightful. I've witnessed people tell themselves some horrible lies to protect their ego. "Sure... I was held down... my gun was stripped away... and there was nothing I could do about it... but... that sims round I put in that guy's thigh would have ended the situation in real life!"

Attending ECQC early in your BJJ development also has the added benefit of showing you very practical, immediate applications of concepts that you'll later drill and spar. It will also hopefully dissuade you from later lazy thoughts in BJJ class of "If my opponent tried this in real life, I'd just shoot him."

[cclaxton]

A couple of items:

1) Unless the BJJ you plan on taking at your Krav gym is taught as a separate class and is taught by a legit BJJ instructor who is at the very, very least a purple belt with more than 5 years in, I would stay away. Most "BJJ" taught in KM gyms as part of their curriculum is superficial at the least, and at worst, completely wrong.

2) As Big T mentioned, you are NEVER ready for ECQC. When I had my first taste of it, I was a brown belt in BJJ and was coming off winning my second straight National Championship. Also, my clinch and boxing skills were noticeably higher than anyone else there. And I still got humiliated for the first few hours. It is irrelevant where you are in your development - the beauty of Craig's coursework is that you fill find the holes in your game. Period. So you are better off just going as soon as possible and stop thinking you are "ready". I guarantee if you think you are truly prepared, you may have a harder mental time accepting what comes later.

Here is a link to the NoVa KM instructors. Ribiero BJJ is what they teach. Check out the instructors. Peter leads the dojo, but Emil leads BJJ. They are all qualified in KravMaga. Most are involved in law enforcement or retired LE/Mil or active duty mil. They focus on skills, mindset, and fitness. http://kravmaganova.com/Instructors#.Vh_2QflVhHz

On ECQC, at 60, fitness is critical. It's just a matter of being physically ready. Besides, I may be in there with Orionz or another IDPA-hater who wants to put a hurtin on. I am always ready to learn new stuff.
Cody