How important are "industry celebrities" to you when buying a product?

[LittleLebowski]

There was only one option for me, of course.

To me; I see things things in shades of gray and making black and white rulings on people who have done things and seen things I have not is not wise. As with all things in life, one must do one's own research.

However, if someone I have the measure of (from real life contact) that also is a professional like say ToddG, Ernest Langdon, or SeanM......it's gold insofar as I'm concerned because I know firsthand of their integrity.

I just can't get wrapped the axle on this whole instructors thing. I have in the past and it's refreshing just to add gossips, hangers-on, and yes, a couple of instructors to my "NFE list" (my Not Fucking Ever list ala Uncle Pat Rogers) and not fucking worry about who got fired for what or who endorsed what. A lot of these cats whether they have zero internet forum creds or not, have far more real world experience and personal testing (Delta, Ranger, BUDS, BRS, etc) than nearly everyone reading my little screed, including myself. These guys made it through programs that weed out the weaklings, both mental and physical ones. It's hard to make a living doing firearms instruction full time, folks. It's not like you have steady paychecks or subsidized insurance costs. You have to juggle multiple balls in order to put food on the table and make the house payment, and it can be feast or famine, scheduling a class and barely breaking even when folks now show or say hoping to teach X amount of classes a year and the ammunition supply dries the fuck up because of a mass murder.

Show us all and leave your day job and be better than all of them. Or....take the damned time to research your purchases and your training decisions and not worry about who said what and who did what.

Also, Ernest Langdon, ToddG, Pat Rogers, Jack Leuba, John Murphy, and Sean M are fucking gods whose words are engraved upon stone tablets for all to obey. I'm reasonably certain that SouthNarc and Cecil Birch are too, but I haven't trained with them yet.

Anyone bagging on Travis Haley here should go show him how it's done here. He made it, can you? It's not like the Marines aren't always hiring. Then go build a business, shooting for a living. Otherwise, worry about yourself.

[Drang]

I only listen to what P-F.com members say about things

Well, okay, mostly

I only listen to what Tamara Keel says about things

[Clobbersaurus]

There was only one option for me, of course.

To me; I see things things in shades of gray and making black and white rulings on people who have done things and seen things I have not is not wise. As with all things in life, one must do one's own research.

However, if someone I have the measure of (from real life contact) that also is a professional like say ToddG, Ernest Langdon, or SeanM......it's gold insofar as I'm concerned because I know firsthand of their integrity.

I just can't get wrapped the axle on this whole instructors thing. I have in the past and it's refreshing just to add gossips, hangers-on, and yes, a couple of instructors to my "NFE list" (my Not Fucking Ever list ala Uncle Pat Rogers) and not fucking worry about who got fired for what or who endorsed what. A lot of these cats whether they have zero internet forum creds or not, have far more real world experience and personal testing (Delta, Ranger, BUDS, BRS, etc) than nearly everyone reading my little screed, including myself. These guys made it through programs that weed out the weaklings, both mental and physical ones. It's hard to make a living doing firearms instruction full time, folks. It's not like you have steady paychecks or subsidized insurance costs. You have to juggle multiple balls in order to put food on the table and make the house payment, and it can be feast or famine, scheduling a class and barely breaking even when folks now show or say hoping to teach X amount of classes a year and the ammunition supply dries the fuck up because of a mass murder.

Show us all and leave your day job and be better than all of them. Or....take the damned time to research your purchases and your training decisions and not worry about who said what and who did what.

Also, Ernest Langdon, ToddG, Pat Rogers, Jack Leuba, John Murphy, and Sean M are fucking gods whose words are engraved upon stone tablets for all to obey. I'm reasonably certain that SouthNarc and Cecil Birch are too, but I haven't trained with them yet.

Anyone bagging on Travis Haley here should go show him how it's done here. He made it, can you? It's not like the Marines aren't always hiring. Then go build a business, shooting for a living. Otherwise, worry about yourself.

Best damn post I've read on the subject. Ever.

Should be a sticky.

[Robinson]

Hell if I listened to what celebrities say I wouldn't have this Colt Commander 9mm on my side because it just can't be trusted.

But really to me it depends on the definition of a celebrity. There are people who I consider so much more knowledgeable than myself -- including many folks who are members of this forum -- and I certainly pay attention to things those people offer from their experience. But I don't actually base decisions solely on things people say even if I greatly respect their opinions.

I respect the SEALs and I understand the P226 is a good pistol -- but I don't own one. I read on this forum quite often about the virtues of the Glock 19 -- and I agree with pretty much all of it -- but I don't own one. I shoot and carry 1911s and sometimes revolvers. Not exactly in favor with many experts these days, though Jerry Miculek and Pat McNamara seem to like them.

I pay attention and I let knowledge shared by the experts help form my bigger picture of things. So I guess I would say I can be influenced by certain "celebrities" but I don't make decisions based solely on what this or that person might say.

[JSGlock34]

Before the surge in training courses in the last few years, I remember reading Pat Rogers' AARs on Lightfighter - back before AARs mutated into just another element of the marketing machine. Pat wrote AARs of his classes where he'd pass on his own observations on equipment and techniques...and what worked and what didn't. His AARs were one of the few places where you could find honest, professional observations on gear, and they were a valuable resource in separating the wheat from the chaff (particularly as the AR15 industry exploded).

Personally I didn't answer the poll because there is no middle ground offered. I'm interested in what knowledgeable users in the training community have to say, but it is one factor among many in my decision making process.

[LittleLebowski]

His AARs were one of the few places where you could find honest, professional observations on gear, and they were a valuable resource in separating the wheat from the chaff (particularly as the AR15 industry exploded).

Still are. Pat is a national treasure.

[LOKNLOD]

I pay attention to what the various interwebrities have to say, especially when they get hands on with new stuff. For instance Haley has a couple good videos up on the Trijicon MRO already.

What they say and how they say it relative to the context of their frame of reference is what matters. It's not important to me that so-n-so likes this, or doesn't like that. What matters is if they can provide detail that enable me to better decide if I would like it or find it useful.

[Zhurdan]

Anyone bagging on Travis Haley here should go show him how it's done here. He made it, can you? It's not like the Marines aren't always hiring. Then go build a business, shooting for a living. Otherwise, worry about yourself.

I've trained with Mr. Haley on a couple of occasions and what that man can do with a pistol/rifle impressed me far more than anything I've seen in the 10+classes I've taken. Yeah, I listen to what he has to say, but I still haven't bought anything other than a pistol holster based on his recommendations. I appreciate his shooting advice far more than his gear advice. I think it depends on what you are looking for...follow the gear trends or follow the shooting trends.

[LSP552]

There are folks with relevant experience that I listen to. I listen because they have experience, not because they are popular. It's pretty easy to tell who is just selling shit vs who has valuable information outside my pay grade.

[UNM1136]

There was only one option for me, of course.

To me; I see things things in shades of gray and making black and white rulings on people who have done things and seen things I have not is not wise. As with all things in life, one must do one's own research.

However, if someone I have the measure of (from real life contact) that also is a professional like say ToddG, Ernest Langdon, or SeanM......it's gold insofar as I'm concerned because I know firsthand of their integrity.

I just can't get wrapped the axle on this whole instructors thing. I have in the past and it's refreshing just to add gossips, hangers-on, and yes, a couple of instructors to my "NFE list" (my Not Fucking Ever list ala Uncle Pat Rogers) and not fucking worry about who got fired for what or who endorsed what. A lot of these cats whether they have zero internet forum creds or not, have far more real world experience and personal testing (Delta, Ranger, BUDS, BRS, etc) than nearly everyone reading my little screed, including myself. These guys made it through programs that weed out the weaklings, both mental and physical ones. It's hard to make a living doing firearms instruction full time, folks. It's not like you have steady paychecks or subsidized insurance costs. You have to juggle multiple balls in order to put food on the table and make the house payment, and it can be feast or famine, scheduling a class and barely breaking even when folks now show or say hoping to teach X amount of classes a year and the ammunition supply dries the fuck up because of a mass murder.

Show us all and leave your day job and be better than all of them. Or....take the damned time to research your purchases and your training decisions and not worry about who said what and who did what.

Also, Ernest Langdon, ToddG, Pat Rogers, Jack Leuba, John Murphy, and Sean M are fucking gods whose words are engraved upon stone tablets for all to obey. I'm reasonably certain that SouthNarc and Cecil Birch are too, but I haven't trained with them yet.

Anyone bagging on Travis Haley here should go show him how it's done here. He made it, can you? It's not like the Marines aren't always hiring. Then go build a business, shooting for a living. Otherwise, worry about yourself.

A certain amount of wisdom here. Some of these people should look at the job prospect of folks who get out of the military. I turned down a free Pat Rogers class, even though we have communicated through phone and email. I turned it down because the hosting agency invited me, and I told them that if they were paying for the school their guys should go. The have 900 or so cops, and my agency has 40. Travis Haely, Paul Howe, Pat McNamera, Kyle Lamb, and Kyle Defor (sp?) have the creds and are trying to share stuff with us, the unwashed. I've been to a SouthNarc course, and had Cecil Birch recommended to me. I will return to the Aim Fast Hit Fast courses, when offered again, and to the ECQC course, when I can. I have already talked to SouthNarc about letting my teenage daughter take his course.

Some names are just that; names, made popular by their repetition, others have a reason to be talked about. When my mentor came and "observed" a class I was taking with one of his SWAT pups, he loaned me his CB colored rifle, that by feel needed a new safety detent and spring. He told me yeah, it's loose, but Kyle gave it to me, referring to the owner of Viking Tactics, and regaling me with the story of him hosting a Bennie Coolie class, and being pulled off the line and offered cash to be an AI. Even before that discussion, I would have walked through the gates of Hell with that man, if for the only reason being that he wanted to see the climate and community. Then I found a very unflattering picture of him on the web at SHOT, and have to bust his balls because he is younger than me and has less hair. When he challenges me to outshine him on the range, I will wear the "pussy" apron he provides me, because he will make me his bitch.

All that said, SOME industry celebs are worth far more than the cost of admission; most others, are worth much, much less. Caveat Emptor.

pat