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Thread: Tactical training for the CCW holder

  1. #41
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Can I assume the class you are talking about is NRA? This is funny from a labeling and common sense perspective, but that class is required to get your CPL (Concealed Pistol License) in MI. If you are truly new to handguns, it might not be a bad place to start. If not, it will probably frustrate you greatly. My takeaway from the class was them insinuating that no matter what the circumstances were, if you had to shoot someone it was going to cost you millions of dollars and ruin your life. That can vary somewhat by the instructor but the NRA is pretty rigid in its syllabus.
    Yes, I believe it is an NRA course: (Copy/paste is from the outside the home class, but they also offer an inside home one.)

    http://www.wyomingantelopeclub.org/training-classes/

    "NRA Personal Protection outside of the home

    An NRA course teaches students the knowledge, skills and attitude essential for avoiding dangerous confrontations and for the safe, effective and responsible use of a concealed pistol for self-defense outside the home. Students have the opportunity to attend this course using a quality strong side hip holster that covers the trigger, or a holster purse. From a review of safe firearms handling and proper mindset to presentation from concealment and multiple shooting positions, this course contains the essential skills and techniques needed to prevail in a life-threatening situation. A Florida licensed attorney will present the legal issues effecting firearms ownership, use and personal defense. The NRA Personal Protection outside the Home course presented at the WAC includes both basic and advanced level certifications. Class size is limited.

    Cost $225.00"

  2. #42
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    Jay, I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. Looking at your training resume on your website I wonder if some of those classes you took are the things that caused you to feel this way, or if some of them were your correction? If none of these classes were what got you around to your current point of view, how did you get from A to B and what makes what you are doing different from the things you said you didn't like? Did you just make the new stuff up? I am not criticizing as your training history does not look all that different from mine and my thoughts have definitely evolved.
    A good and fair question; I'll do my best to answer.

    First I'm going to post the subject from the OP, just to refer to so I don't go too far off the rails.


    Tactical training for the CCW holder

    Exclude mil and LE training for this discussion. Beyond technical shooting training, I am interested in discussing what tactical training the typical CCW gun owner should have. Source of the training, duration of the training, frequency of recurrent training, etc.
    Next I'll address your post.


    Looking at your training resume on your website I wonder if some of those classes you took are the things that caused you to feel this way, or if some of them were your correction?
    Both. I think it's fair to say that the later coursework I chose was a correction for the earlier coursework. That doesn't mean that all the early work was bad or wrong.


    If none of these classes were what got you around to your current point of view, how did you get from A to B and what makes what you are doing different from the things you said you didn't like?
    Many of these classes got me to my current point-of-view, but also my experiences as a host, my time spent as a moderator and staff on popular related forums, and personal relationships with many of the players off the gun range. Now, what am I doing different from the things I said I didn't like? (great question BTW)

    didn't like dogmatic instruction - Dogmatic instructors lack the ability (or desire) to think critically. They may be very polished presenters, but the material they present is not their material. They may be able to answer a lot of "why" questions, but only if those "why" questions had already been addressed by the instructor or group which they devote their loyalty to. They can't deviate from the script and they won't look at their own material with a critical eye. I've had hundreds of hours of relevant instruction from over 20 different instructors of varying backgrounds. Everything I see, I evaluate for both my own needs and the needs of my students. If I can't answer a question, if I can't say "I like this and here's why" or "I don't like this and here's why", I need to revaluate what I'm presenting.

    lots of down time and long lunches - Proper flow of material and reasonable class size and instructor-to-student ratio largely deals with this... 26 people in a class with one instructor means lots of down time. I strive to maintain a 1:5 instructor-to-student ratio, and generally cap my classes at 10 people. An hour for lunch is more than enough.

    low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot - I've been fed the lie that an elevated round count always means you're just hosing down the berm. Well, just like anything else, it depends. A relatively low round count can indeed be appropriate. But sometimes it's just because the instructor does not have a high energy level. There is plenty of justification for higher round counts, and higher round counts still mean accountability for accuracy. I keep an eye on the class and provide accurate round counts in my course descriptions. I control my pacing so that fatigue doesn't ruin performance. Sometimes it is very helpful to get the guns hot.

    irrelevant war stories - I don't have any war stories, so I can't distract anyone with this. Some war stories are very relevant, but many are worthless.

    trash-talking other instructors in the industry - This one is really bad. Other instructors do come up, it's inevitable. But I do my absolute utmost to not gossip about other instructors or bash them. It's unprofessional.

    hero-worship from student cliques - This is another bad one, and it's everywhere. Most people have no idea what makes for a good instructor. You need a lot of experience with different instructors and it helps to have a background in instructing yourself (doesn't need to be gunslinger stuff) AND you need to be able to think critically. It takes a long time and lots of experience to figure out what good, relevant instruction looks like. I don't subscribe to any one philosophy and I sure as hell know my students don't worship me!

    very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe and it's facilitated by students having no idea what right looks like. It's also facilitated by instructors who are unable (or unwilling) to step out of their own experiences and look critically at their students. Much of this has been touched on already in this thread... team tactics and variations of team tactics taught to armed citizens who will never, ever work as part of a team is a bad one. Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong, as is one man movement inside structures, especially when coupled with light employment. While carbines should only make up a small portion of one's training, it still should be trained right; however this is typically where the biggest fantasy LARPing comes into play. I don't have the bias of military or LE background, so I can sit and objectively look at things and say "this is applicable to me as a civilian" or "this is not applicable to me as a civilian", and I do my best to present that to my students, who are also my (less experienced) peers.

    complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting - Once again, students have no idea what right looks like. It took lots of instruction from lots of different guys to finally realize that some truly know what they're looking at and can troubleshoot. Not to nut-dangle, but Todd's ability to troubleshoot and diagnose individual shooter issues impressed me. I decided that if I ever wanted to try and teach people, that I'd commit to learn how to properly troubleshoot.

    students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn - This goes back to the LARPing thing, usually worst in carbine classes. I'm not talking about being a hipster, but an IT guy who's in full Crye gear with chest rig and drop holster is so silly it's almost distracting, especially if they're otherwise inept. I want people to wear normal clothing and not get all worked up about gear. I don't care if you have a warbelt or chest rig to carry a bunch of extra shit, just don't wear it as part of a classtume. Large class sizes and student cliques can also lead to a lot of Cokeing and Joking on the line. AIs can help with this.

    instructors seemed to just "phone it in" - This goes back I think to low energy level and also instructor ego. Some instructors seem to act like they're doing the student a favor taking their money and just showing up. I try to keep my energy level high and pour my heart into what I'm doing.


    Did you just make the new stuff up?
    Generally, no. But I did (and continue to do) a lot of trial-and-error, a lot of critical thinking, and a lot of arguing with assistant instructors to see if we can validate a point and then defend it. Most stuff has already been invented anyway... we either steal it or "rediscover" it!


    As a final note, I think that The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is an incredibly valuable resource for the average armed citizen. There are a lot of smart guys there talking about a lot of smart guy stuff.
    Last edited by Jay Cunningham; 10-10-2014 at 10:23 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    A good and fair question; I'll do my best to answer.

    First I'm going to post the subject from the OP, just to refer to so I don't go too far off the rails.




    Next I'll address your post.




    Both. I think it's fair to say that the later coursework I chose was a correction for the earlier coursework. That doesn't mean that all the early work was bad or wrong.




    Many of these classes got me to my current point-of-view, but also my experiences as a host, my time spent as a moderator and staff on popular related forums, and personal relationships with many of the players off the gun range. Now, what am I doing different from the things I said I didn't like? (great question BTW)

    didn't like dogmatic instruction - Dogmatic instructors lack the ability (or desire) to think critically. They may be very polished presenters, but the material they present is not their material. They may be able to answer a lot of "why" questions, but only if those "why" questions had already been addressed by the instructor or group which they devote their loyalty to. They can't deviate from the script and they won't look at their own material with a critical eye. I've had hundreds of hours of relevant instruction from over 20 different instructors of varying backgrounds. Everything I see, I evaluate for both my own needs and the needs of my students. If I can't answer a question, if I can't say "I like this and here's why" or "I don't like this and here's why", I need to revaluate what I'm presenting.

    lots of down time and long lunches - Proper flow of material and reasonable class size and instructor-to-student ratio largely deals with this... 26 people in a class with one instructor means lots of down time. I strive to maintain a 1:5 instructor-to-student ratio, and generally cap my classes at 10 people. An hour for lunch is more than enough.

    low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot - I've been fed the lie that an elevated round count always means you're just hosing down the berm. Well, just like anything else, it depends. A relatively low round count can indeed be appropriate. But sometimes it's just because the instructor does not have a high energy level. There is plenty of justification for higher round counts, and higher round counts still mean accountability for accuracy. I keep an eye on the class and provide accurate round counts in my course descriptions. I control my pacing so that fatigue doesn't ruin performance. Sometimes it is very helpful to get the guns hot.

    irrelevant war stories - I don't have any war stories, so I can't distract anyone with this. Some war stories are very relevant, but many are worthless.

    trash-talking other instructors in the industry - This one is really bad. Other instructors do come up, it's inevitable. But I do my absolute utmost to not gossip about other instructors or bash them. It's unprofessional.

    hero-worship from student cliques - This is another bad one, and it's everywhere. Most people have no idea what makes for a good instructor. You need a lot of experience with different instructors and it helps to have a background in instructing yourself (doesn't need to be gunslinger stuff) AND you need to be able to think critically. It takes a long time and lots of experience to figure out what good, relevant instruction looks like. I don't subscribe to any one philosophy and I sure as hell know my students don't worship me!

    very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe and it's facilitated by students having no idea what right looks like. It's also facilitated by instructors who are unable (or unwilling) to step out of their own experiences and look critically at their students. Much of this has been touched on already in this thread... team tactics and variations of team tactics taught to armed citizens who will never, ever work as part of a team is a bad one. Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong, as is one man movement inside structures, especially when coupled with light employment. While carbines should only make up a small portion of one's training, it still should be trained right; however this is typically where the biggest fantasy LARPing comes into play. I don't have the bias of military or LE background, so I can sit and objectively look at things and say "this is applicable to me as a civilian" or "this is not applicable to me as a civilian", and I do my best to present that to my students, who are also my (less experienced) peers.

    complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting - Once again, students have no idea what right looks like. It took lots of instruction from lots of different guys to finally realize that some truly know what they're looking at and can troubleshoot. Not to nut-dangle, but Todd's ability to troubleshoot and diagnose individual shooter issues impressed me. I decided that if I ever wanted to try and teach people, that I'd commit to learn how to properly troubleshoot.

    students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn - This goes back to the LARPing thing, usually worst in carbine classes. I'm not talking about being a hipster, but an IT guy who's in full Crye gear with chest rig and drop holster is so silly it's almost distracting, especially if they're otherwise inept. I want people to wear normal clothing and not get all worked up about gear. I don't care if you have a warbelt or chest rig to carry a bunch of extra shit, just don't wear it as part of a classtume. Large class sizes and student cliques can also lead to a lot of Cokeing and Joking on the line. AIs can help with this.

    instructors seemed to just "phone it in" - This goes back I think to low energy level and also instructor ego. Some instructors seem to act like they're doing the student a favor taking their money and just showing up. I try to keep my energy level high and pour my heart into what I'm doing.




    Generally, no. But I did (and continue to do) a lot of trial-and-error, a lot of critical thinking, and a lot of arguing with assistant instructors to see if we can validate a point and then defend it. Most stuff has already been invented anyway... we either steal it or "rediscover" it!


    As a final note, I think that The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is an incredibly valuable resource for the average armed citizen. There are a lot of smart guys there talking about a lot of smart guy stuff.
    Excellent.
    #RESIST

  4. #44
    Member MVS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    MI
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    A good and fair question; I'll do my best to answer.

    First I'm going to post the subject from the OP, just to refer to so I don't go too far off the rails.




    Next I'll address your post.




    Both. I think it's fair to say that the later coursework I chose was a correction for the earlier coursework. That doesn't mean that all the early work was bad or wrong.




    Many of these classes got me to my current point-of-view, but also my experiences as a host, my time spent as a moderator and staff on popular related forums, and personal relationships with many of the players off the gun range. Now, what am I doing different from the things I said I didn't like? (great question BTW)

    didn't like dogmatic instruction - Dogmatic instructors lack the ability (or desire) to think critically. They may be very polished presenters, but the material they present is not their material. They may be able to answer a lot of "why" questions, but only if those "why" questions had already been addressed by the instructor or group which they devote their loyalty to. They can't deviate from the script and they won't look at their own material with a critical eye. I've had hundreds of hours of relevant instruction from over 20 different instructors of varying backgrounds. Everything I see, I evaluate for both my own needs and the needs of my students. If I can't answer a question, if I can't say "I like this and here's why" or "I don't like this and here's why", I need to revaluate what I'm presenting.

    lots of down time and long lunches - Proper flow of material and reasonable class size and instructor-to-student ratio largely deals with this... 26 people in a class with one instructor means lots of down time. I strive to maintain a 1:5 instructor-to-student ratio, and generally cap my classes at 10 people. An hour for lunch is more than enough.

    low round counts and a slow tempo when it was time to shoot - I've been fed the lie that an elevated round count always means you're just hosing down the berm. Well, just like anything else, it depends. A relatively low round count can indeed be appropriate. But sometimes it's just because the instructor does not have a high energy level. There is plenty of justification for higher round counts, and higher round counts still mean accountability for accuracy. I keep an eye on the class and provide accurate round counts in my course descriptions. I control my pacing so that fatigue doesn't ruin performance. Sometimes it is very helpful to get the guns hot.

    irrelevant war stories - I don't have any war stories, so I can't distract anyone with this. Some war stories are very relevant, but many are worthless.

    trash-talking other instructors in the industry - This one is really bad. Other instructors do come up, it's inevitable. But I do my absolute utmost to not gossip about other instructors or bash them. It's unprofessional.

    hero-worship from student cliques - This is another bad one, and it's everywhere. Most people have no idea what makes for a good instructor. You need a lot of experience with different instructors and it helps to have a background in instructing yourself (doesn't need to be gunslinger stuff) AND you need to be able to think critically. It takes a long time and lots of experience to figure out what good, relevant instruction looks like. I don't subscribe to any one philosophy and I sure as hell know my students don't worship me!

    very specialized techniques and tactics thoughtlessly pawned off as great for general consumption - This may be my biggest personal gripe and it's facilitated by students having no idea what right looks like. It's also facilitated by instructors who are unable (or unwilling) to step out of their own experiences and look critically at their students. Much of this has been touched on already in this thread... team tactics and variations of team tactics taught to armed citizens who will never, ever work as part of a team is a bad one. Shooting-on-the-move as it is both taught and emphasized by certain trainers is hideously wrong, as is one man movement inside structures, especially when coupled with light employment. While carbines should only make up a small portion of one's training, it still should be trained right; however this is typically where the biggest fantasy LARPing comes into play. I don't have the bias of military or LE background, so I can sit and objectively look at things and say "this is applicable to me as a civilian" or "this is not applicable to me as a civilian", and I do my best to present that to my students, who are also my (less experienced) peers.

    complete inability of most shooting instructors to properly diagnose shooting - Once again, students have no idea what right looks like. It took lots of instruction from lots of different guys to finally realize that some truly know what they're looking at and can troubleshoot. Not to nut-dangle, but Todd's ability to troubleshoot and diagnose individual shooter issues impressed me. I decided that if I ever wanted to try and teach people, that I'd commit to learn how to properly troubleshoot.

    students playing dress-up and screwing around when I was trying to learn - This goes back to the LARPing thing, usually worst in carbine classes. I'm not talking about being a hipster, but an IT guy who's in full Crye gear with chest rig and drop holster is so silly it's almost distracting, especially if they're otherwise inept. I want people to wear normal clothing and not get all worked up about gear. I don't care if you have a warbelt or chest rig to carry a bunch of extra shit, just don't wear it as part of your classtume. Large class sizes and student cliques can also lead to a lot of Cokeing and Joking on the line. AIs can help with this.

    instructors seemed to just "phone it in" - This goes back I think to low energy level and also instructor ego. Some instructors seem to act like they're doing the student a favor taking their money and just showing up. I try to keep my energy level high and pour my heart into what I'm doing.




    Generally, no. But I did (and continue to do) a lot of trial-and-error, a lot of critical thinking, and a lot of arguing with assistant instructors to see if we can validate a point and then defend it. Most stuff has already been invented anyway... we either steal it or "rediscover" it!


    As a final note, I think that The Rangemaster Tactical Conference is an incredibly valuable resource for the average armed citizen. There are a lot of smart guys there talking about a lot of smart guy stuff.
    Wow, talk about a lot of parallels. I totally get where you are coming from. Thanks for the detailed answer. In case you were interested in why I said we had similar but different class resume. http://paladincombatives.com/mike/

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Don't take this wrong, as most of that list are friends, and I have trained with most of them. There will not be a ton of what the typical CCW holder needs as far as situational awareness, threat assessment, appropriate use of force, high level discretionary shooting, not shooting, discussions on what is going to happen post shooting and how to deal with L/E, including how to not get shot by responding LE, etc.
    I have an exercise on Sunday of ECQC that covers every bit of that. Out of about 22-23 hrs of training about 6 are spent in live fire expending exactly 275 rounds. The remaining 18 hours or so are H2H, Sim work, role play and full spectrum interactivity underscored with legal accountability.

    It's a 2 vs. 1 evolution.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    I have an exercise on Sunday of ECQC that covers every bit of that. Out of about 22-23 hrs of training about 6 are spent in live fire expending exactly 275 rounds. The remaining 18 hours or so are H2H, Sim work, role play and full spectrum interactivity underscored with legal accountability.

    It's a 2 vs. 1 evolution.
    This really needs to be publicized more. So many CCW holders think of the gun as a magic talisman that will make bad guys go away and make cops buy you dinner after your righteous shoot.
    #RESIST

  7. #47
    So here's the set-up for the 2 vs 1 evolution. In a full class of 18 it usually takes about 3.5 hours to get everyone through. Everyone not participating is part of "Thunderdome" which is a ring around the participants. So they're watching.

    Three people are in the ring wearing FIST helmets one has a Sim gun concealed. He's the focus of the evolution.

    When I say "Begin" one of the other two people will begin encroaching towards the gun bearer. So it starts that way every time.

    The third person I have physically held by the elbow. They cannot be seen and do not exist to the gun bearer until I actually let go of him. So he's not in play until I release him.

    Now where does it go from there? I really don't care. It's not over until I call it regardless of what happens. I may call the exercise without a shot being fired, a gun drawn, or a punch thrown. OR...I may call the exercise with the gun bearer on the ground getting the shit kicked out of him by two dudes and shot with his own gun. It doesn't matter to me and the two people feeding the gun bearer have complete freedom to play it any way they want to.

    Common theme:

    Gun guy get's encroached by a stranger, overreacts (generally poor verbals) and get's into a fistfight which goes horizontal. I release the second guy who encroaches quickly with an Iphone and says something like "DAMN DOG THIS SHIT IS GOING ON MY YOUTUBE!!!" Gun guy getting punched sees nothing more than the outstreched arm assumes a hostile and shoots iphone bearer.

    Gun guy rarely has the composure (because he has no jiu-jitsu) to remain calm, assess the second guy accurately and attempt a verbal strategy along the lines of "DUDE GET THIS FUCKIN' GUY OFF ME HE'S A MUSLIM!!!!" Occasionally he does and guess what? Quite often (within the exercise) it works!

    Tip: People love being steered. Someone smarter than me said a long time ago a polite tell goes alot further than a polite ask.

    Another common theme:

    I say begin and the initial encroacher is bearing down on the gun bearer FAST. The encroacher's head is turned sideways and he's making a high pitched keening sound. Gun guy goes for the pistol or a hand strike right when I let go of the second guy who starts screaming "THAT"S MY BROTHER AND HE'S AUTISTIC YOU FUCKING MORON PUT THE GUN AWAY" Two rapidly bearing strangers, the inability to cycle down emotionally, may very well result in one of them getting shot. OR the second guy get's pissed when he sees the gun and starts cycling up. Gun guy can't put the gun away, realizes what has happened tries to de-escalate because he feels shitty, and get's sucker punched with a gun in his hand. Now gun and and mad brother are fighting over the gun with developmentally disabled kid caterwauling in the background.

    Those are two random examples from that exercise I do. Everybody does it and everybody watches everybody else.

    Afterward it's debriefed with me following a chronological progression of the decision points. Everybody is encouraged to ask questions and offer input. Once that's done, we switch the gun and do it again until everyone in the trio has been on the gun.

    It's pretty exhausting for me personally as I have to be on point for about 3.5 hours non-stop. That being said the value of having an experience without consequence,for the average person who is not in a high risk profession is IMO pretty damn informative.

  8. #48
    Member
    Join Date
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    SW Louisiana
    I'll come at this from a slightly different tack, which is that the type of CCW holder varies significantly so we need to figure out WHO we are talking about before we get into WHAT we should talk about. My training epiphany was when I started doing CHL classes after we approved "shall-issue" permits here. Prior to that most of my students had been dedicated folks who were serious about the art and science of gunfighting. Now many, if not most, of my students won't shoot up a 50-round box of ammo in a year. So I took a cue from training that had to deal with this sort of student in the past, looking at places where there was limited experience or opportunity and seeing how they had handled things. The take-away for me was simple, easy to use and remember actions that focused on building from natural reactions. So for the basic, new CCW:
    1. Safe gunhandling, safe gunhandling, safe gunhandling, inncluding carry methods.
    2. Situational awareness.
    3. Common and likely BG actions in common occurrences (burglary, robbery, mugging, carjacking, etc).
    4. Legal issues including after-action events.
    5. Target-focus shooting at close range.
    6. Proper sight picture for longer distance.

    I teach the basics from the perspective that this is the only training the student will get, they will not practice much if any, and that it needs to be generic in regards to equipment, able to cross various platforms and environments. I also try to convince them that this is a very simple introduction and that there is a world of training available to them that will enhance and improve their skills exponentially, but few will ever do that.
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"

  9. #49
    I need more training.
    #RESIST

  10. #50
    I will have trained with 8 by the end of the year. I think Louis Awerbuck and Craig Douglas would be at the top of any list with the specific CCW skills you speak of.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Don't take this wrong, as most of that list are friends, and I have trained with most of them. There will not be a ton of what the typical CCW holder needs as far as situational awareness, threat assessment, appropriate use of force, high level discretionary shooting, not shooting, discussions on what is going to happen post shooting and how to deal with L/E, including how to not get shot by responding LE, etc. That is not in anyway shape or form a ding at those instructors as they are generally there to teach the shooting part of the process and is what they are in demand for. The reality is that most folks are using the gun store, internet and TV for their CCW force training and there is not much as far as neat and cool factor in teaching a lot of what I listed above.

    With all that said, if I lived in Norcal, I would be training with Mike Lamb a lot. He is very under-rated and is one of the genius minds in our community. Driving to SoCal for Scott Reitz would also be a regular thing.

    The big issue is that there are a bunch of folks out there who are very knowledgeable on many of these subjects (including some of those on the list above). They just aren't very in demand for classes and a lot of folks are far more interested in going to classes for how to shoot better and not how to avoid shooting at all, and if you have to how to be "right".

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