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Thread: NY lawmakers want more gun control

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrevor View Post
    In my personal experience, the vast majority of the "citizens don't need guns" LE are career admin types, or those headed that way. There is a VERY high correlation between being pro-citizen-disarmament and either being in an appointed position, or reporting directly to someone who serves at the pleasure of the local politicians.

    The problem is that these are the same folks who make and promulgate policy, however diluted or ignored it may be by the time it gets to the street, and they're the ones who get to set the message to the media.

    I know through direct personal experience that the message they put out doesn't reflect the sentiments of the folks out there doing good work. The problem is that most gun owners hear the same civilian-disarmament message repeated by X different police chiefs, and Y different mayors, and Z different DAs, and then they see the carve-outs and special exceptions baldly set forth in the very laws that are strangling their rights.

    When the rank-and-file are required by the chain of command to stand silent while their leadership enthusiastically supports these infringements, it's all too easy for Joe Gun Owner to assume that they support it as well. And that's a problem, because that leads directly to the assumption that those same folks working the street will rigidly enforce anything they're told to enforce, up to and including confiscation.

    I have a problem with the knighthood being granted a monopoly on force through decree of the rulers. I'm a long-time student of the samurai era in Japan, and I know how well that works for the vast majority who are not members of the warrior class. While I'm not LE, I have far too many friends and relatives who are to believe that the vast majority of LE want a feudal system in which a knighthood class is elevated above the folks they serve and protect, yet that's the direction I've seen things heading for the last 20 years.

    The answer, friends, is equality under the law. No carve-outs for LE, because we are all treated with equal respect, and receive equal rights -- right up until someone goes over the line, and then the violation of the social contract means their rights get restricted. As a specific example, if I can pass the same background check as a local LEO and demonstrate competency, I should be able to own the same suppressed SBR M4 with the giggle switch that the tac team uses. Period.

    Just as I support Ruger's recent actions to force judicial action on the unconstitutionality of the hated Roster here in CA, I support companies refusing to make agency-level sales into states restricting the rights of ordinary law-abiding citizens to force the issue. Sales to individual LE in NYS? Cool. Agency sales to NYPD or NYSP? Nope.

    I'm supporting the fight against this wretched idiocy, as one of the other folks here puts it, from "behind the redwood curtain". I'm not above buying non-Roster guns from LE friends, yet I recognize that this is also subtle corruption of a kind, making me an extension of the privileged class. Exercising my constitutional and civil rights should not require asking favors of an exempt class, yet that is what I am reduced to in order to buy a gun that residents of other states can purchase at any LGS. For that reason, if nothing else, the divide between legislatively-created classes of "knighthood" and "subject" must be obliterated nationwide and this tide of infringements rolled back.

    It make take 10 years, or 20, but it CAN and WILL happen in my lifetime.
    With respect that is a huge leap. Knighthood really? More like we are the 2nd class citizens taking crap from the public we serve and the politically appointed administrators above us. Being caught in the middle is not fun.

  2. #52
    Member TheTrevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    With respect that is a huge leap. Knighthood really? More like we are the 2nd class citizens taking crap from the public we serve and the politically appointed administrators above us. Being caught in the middle is not fun.
    I know what it's like, Pat. I do Crossfit with "you people" (I kid, I kid!), I grew up in an LE family, etc etc.

    I've given this a lot of thought, and I'm comfortable with using the ruler/knight/serf metaphor to describe the direction I think things are headed, especially in restrictive states. Being a member of the warrior class does NOT automatically give you economic or social privileges. I can go into my reasoning behind this, at tedious length, but I should be doing some dry-fire practice right now.

    Suffice it to say that the knight/samurai class historically had three advantages over the commoner:
    * training reserved for the warrior class
    * weaponry and armor not permitted and/or affordable to commoners
    * greatly reduced (or no) rules of liability for the use of force

    All three of those are true in Western society today, to one degree or another, but instead of knights or samurai we call them LEO or LEA. It's the second one we're discussing here, and it's the wedge being driven between the rank-and-file LE community and the citizens they serve by politicians and LE appointees.

  3. #53
    A lot of this is some pretty deep speculation of gigantic leaps over a very simple issue.

    L/E admin serves the liberal politicians in major urbanized centers and are used as pawns of the progressive anti gun agenda. Yet the same people are tasked with keeping their "workers" doing the most work for the least amount of money and support as possible....in line with the fiscal conservatives. Line L/E tend to be very conservative on gun issues in which they really would just like to see criminals removed from society who prey on the citizenry and understand the need for folks to defend themselves from evil folks who tend to be adored by the progressives. This flies in total contrast with what side they fall on when it comes to pay and benefits which tends to lean heavily towards pro-union democrats. This essentially becomes an issue of gun rights for the citizens or pay and benefits when it comes time to vote. It is a delicate balance that is often in flux. It isn't about knights, it's about "do I vote for guns, or higher pay?" This is why most L/E tend to sort of stay out of the whole process.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    A lot of this is some pretty deep speculation of gigantic leaps over a very simple issue.

    L/E admin serves the liberal politicians in major urbanized centers and are used as pawns of the progressive anti gun agenda. Yet the same people are tasked with keeping their "workers" doing the most work for the least amount of money and support as possible....in line with the fiscal conservatives. Line L/E tend to be very conservative on gun issues in which they really would just like to see criminals removed from society who prey on the citizenry and understand the need for folks to defend themselves from evil folks who tend to be adored by the progressives. This flies in total contrast with what side they fall on when it comes to pay and benefits which tends to lean heavily towards pro-union democrats. This essentially becomes an issue of gun rights for the citizens or pay and benefits when it comes time to vote. It is a delicate balance that is often in flux. It isn't about knights, it's about "do I vote for guns, or higher pay?" This is why most L/E tend to sort of stay out of the whole process.
    Thank you for posting this. Its right on and I wish I was as articulate. Right now on a local and state level I will not vote republican because they are trying to kill us financially. On the federal level pretty much have to vote republican because of the gun issue. Tough spot to be in. I know this will never happen but I would love it if the republican party (party line) dropped their anti labor stance or if the democrats (party line) dropped their anti gun stance.
    Pat

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTrevor View Post

    Suffice it to say that the knight/samurai class historically had three advantages over the commoner:
    * training reserved for the warrior class
    * weaponry and armor not permitted and/or affordable to commoners
    * greatly reduced (or no) rules of liability for the use of force

    .
    Again with respect on the points above. Can't argue on the weaponry in some states your right cops can have guns citizens can not. It sucks and I am for changing that.

    Training. There is a lot of great training available to citizens. I am not aware of much that is leo only and some stuff should be that way because I don't want the bad guys know all of our tactics. It puts us in more jeopardy and it really will not benefit the average citizen trying to defend themselves.

    As for liability we are held to a higher standard when using force that a non leo situation. Example a preacher up here shot two suspects in the back as they ran towards their car to get away and was acquitted. As a cop I would be fired, jailed and convicted for the same thing. Because of our training and experience we are held to a higher standard by the courts and by the public. Some people actually think we should shoot guns out of peoples hands and crap like that and they get put on juries. Furthermore our job places us in situations far more often than the average citizen to use force and to have to make split second life and death decisions. Put simply we are given a lot more chances to screw up and when we do we get crucified.

  6. #56
    Member NETim's Avatar
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    And socially liberal Democrats are generally against more prison time and harsher penalties for the bad guys.

    Unions and the GOP would probably get along much better if the AFL/CIO wasn't so deep in the back pocket of the DNC.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    Training. There is a lot of great training available to citizens. I am not aware of much that is leo only and some stuff should be that way because I don't want the bad guys know all of our tactics. It puts us in more jeopardy and it really will not benefit the average citizen trying to defend themselves.
    Because civilians don't need tactics? The bad guys that are actually out to hurt cops know your tactics. And civilians should also be trained on those tactics, remember the second amendment isn't just about defending yourself. I honestly don't care (I barely have enough time to get ready for competition as is), but there are those that legitimately feel that they should have the same level of training available to them, and IMO they are right.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPGMD View Post
    Because civilians don't need tactics? The bad guys that are actually out to hurt cops know your tactics. And civilians should also be trained on those tactics, remember the second amendment isn't just about defending yourself. I honestly don't care (I barely have enough time to get ready for competition as is), but there are those that legitimately feel that they should have the same level of training available to them, and IMO they are right.
    I did not say that. However they don't need to know our tactics on making entry into a drug house etc. They need to know tactics on how to fight against a home invasions etc while acting as the defender. There is a big difference in tactics between police raids and home defense. We can hope that the trainers out there screen their students well but not everyone is ethical.
    Pat

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by NETim View Post
    And socially liberal Democrats are generally against more prison time and harsher penalties for the bad guys.

    Unions and the GOP would probably get along much better if the AFL/CIO wasn't so deep in the back pocket of the DNC.
    My point of view is that the GOP is so deep in big buisness back pocket they don't care about the working class or small business owners.
    Pat

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaskapopo View Post
    My point of view is that the GOP is so deep in big buisness back pocket they don't care about the working class or small business owners.
    Pat
    Are you really sure that you want to stand on that one?
    #RESIST

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