Originally Posted by
Ghost Dog
Behind Blue, for clarity, I believe you investigated a lot of shootings in a decent sized city is that correct? Can I ask what the weather/layers of clothing was like in that state typically...Ie were you North or South or somewhere inbetween temp wise?
To clarify, were you talking .357 in general from 4" or longer back in good old days? That all over penetrated? or were you talking specifically about .357 magnum Critical Duty over penetrating? I would think 125 sjhp wouldn't over penetrate, but especially typical/cheaper 158 gr sjhp/sjsp would. Were .357 Upper Torso/head hits typically all DRT?
If you answer was mostly Critical Duty focused other than Hydrashoks... can you expand more generally please?
Can you speak to general 38 & Up vs 380 & Under?
Hollowpoints vs FMJ in both those categories?
Every .40 I've seen with the exception of UMC in any style of testing, from even subcompact like G27 barrels or longer seems to expand fully. I don't think there was ever a problem with this likely perfect LE cartridge, I think the problem was it was used in platforms not specifically engineered for it both recoil wise and durability wise. While I am sure the hot 155 grain loads originally used like CBP were excellent street stoppers, but that's not the slide velocity load to be training with regularly. It seems either the 165 or 180 HST would be phenomenal, and same weight Gold Dots if doing lots of vehicle stops or highway patrol. It's hard to believe a more perfect pistol bullet for LE purposes, that allows fairly hi capacity as well with a thin enough grip most that most can use it. I love me some huge 45 HSTs don't get me wrong, but 165/180 .40 seems perfect for LE if it's in HK/2.0/Gen 5 thicker heavier slides, p229 designed for it etc.
With decent upper thoracic A/B zone shot placement, It seems even .45 Ball does pretty good from many reports over many years but have seen shots to stomach do not much for immediate threat stopping. I would thick .40 fmj-fp would do fairly well, since high energy and the flat meplate but would have some serious over penetration concerns where .45 ball probably does but not nearly as far downrange. I would think 9mm/380/32 FMJ and .38 round nose kinda sucks unless heart/CNS of course. Good enough sectional density to penetrate deeply, but round Ogive would make a ton of tissue flow around it and not leave a wide enough wound channel (that I assume partially seals up the smaller diameter path...ya know gravity and all as well as some kind of suction/fluid dynamics I would thick). Dr. Fackler said .45 ball was 62% more Tissue Crushed right?
It seems you are saying 9/40/45 most JHPs do expand and either somewhere in body or in clothing on back end? I think you are confirming .45 Hyrdrashoks only partially expanded, and I am assuming often over penetrated especially through more layers of clothing. Still, it be like a .45 Wadcutter almost so I assume fairly effective and what they had at the time that would work reliably well just from guaranteed size. Similarly, I am not sure 230 gr Golden Sabers would always expand real world (especially from shorter than full size barrels), but I am of the belief 185 grain Golden Sabers would. In general, I think a lot of Winchester rounds seemed to work much better in full size barrels, and not that reliably through heavy clothing but I am open to correction on that.
What about .38 snub performance?
What about .380 and under JHPs, either under-penetration or no expansion?
If anyone wants to chime in on preferred Hollow Point bullet weight for 38/9/40/45 that would be welcome as well. Ie, outside of plus p plus, or harder bullets like xtps, I am not much of a 115 grain fan. Outside of HST, I have never been much of a 147 fan either. But I can acknowledge even basic WWB/USA 115 and 147 JHPs do fairly well. A lot of 124+p seems to do well, even from short barrels. I am pretty torn on 165 or 180 in .40, and 185 vs 230 for .45 is a bit easier....with .45 it's more 230 for 4.25" or longer, and 185 for shorter than 4.25" IMO...with the exception of HST works great in all. .38 I am sold on 125-135+p JHPs if usually acceptable POI.
Thank you very much